Justice: What's The Right Thing To Do? Episode 01 "THE MORAL SIDE OF MURDER"

PART ONE: THE MORAL SIDE OF MURDER
If you had to choose between (1) killing one person to save the lives of five others and (2) doing nothing even though you knew that five people would die right before your eyes if you did nothing—what would you do? What would be the right thing to do? Thats the hypothetical scenario Professor Michael Sandel uses to launch his course on moral reasoning. After the majority of students votes for killing the one person in order to save the lives of five others, Sandel presents three similar moral conundrums—each one artfully designed to make the decision more difficult. As students stand up to defend their conflicting choices, it becomes clear that the assumptions behind our moral reasoning are often contradictory, and the question of what is right and what is wrong is not always black and white.

PART TWO: THE CASE FOR CANNIBALISM

Sandel introduces the principles of utilitarian philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, with a famous nineteenth century legal case involving a shipwrecked crew of four. After nineteen days lost at sea, the captain decides to kill the weakest amongst them, the young cabin boy, so that the rest can feed on his blood and body to survive. The case sets up a classroom debate about the moral validity of utilitarianism—and its doctrine that the right thing to do is whatever produces "the greatest good for the greatest number."

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This is a course about Justice and we begin with a story

suppose you're the driver of a trolley car,

and your trolley car is hurdling down the track at sixty miles an hour

and at the end of the track you notice five workers working on the track

you tried to stop but you can't

your brakes don't work

you feel desperate because you know

that if you crash into these five workers

they will all die

let's assume you know that for sure

and so you feel helpless

until you notice that there is

off to the right

a side track

at the end of that track

there's one worker

working on track

you're steering wheel works

so you can

turn the trolley car if you want to

onto this side track

killing the one

but sparing the five.

Here's our first question

what's the right thing to do?

What would you do?

Let's take a poll,

how many

would turn the trolley car onto the side track?

How many wouldn't?

How many would go straight ahead

keep your hands up, those of you who'd go straight ahead.

A handful of people would, the vast majority would turn

let's hear first

now we need to begin to investigate the reasons why you think

it's the right thing to do. Let's begin with those in the majority, who would turn

to go onto side track?

Why would you do it,

what would be your reason?

Who's willing to volunteer a reason?

Go ahead, stand up.

Because it can't be right to kill five people when you can only kill one person instead.

it wouldn't be right to kill five

if you could kill one person instead

that's a good reason

that's a good reason

who else?

does everybody agree with that

reason? go ahead.

Well I was thinking it was the same reason it was on

9/11 we regard the people who flew the plane

who flew the plane into the

Pennsylvania field as heroes

because they chose to kill the people on the plane

and not kill more people

in big buildings.

So the principle there was the same on 9/11

it's tragic circumstance,

but better to kill one so that five can live

is that the reason most of you have, those of you who would turn, yes?

Let's hear now

from

those in the minority

those who wouldn't turn.

Well I think that same type of mentality that justifies genocide and totalitarianism

in order to save one type of race you wipe out the other.

so what would you do in this case? You would

to avoid

the horrors of genocide

you would crash into the five and kill them?

Presumably yes.

okay who else?

That's a brave answer, thank you.

Let's consider another

trolley car case

and see

whether

those of you in the majority

want to adhere to the principle,

better that one should die so that five should live.

This time you're not the driver of the trolley car, you're an onlooker

standing on a bridge overlooking a trolley car track

and down the track comes a trolley car

at the end of the track are five workers

the brakes don't work

the trolley car is about to careen into the five and kill them

and now

you're not the driver

you really feel helpless

until you notice

standing next to you

leaning over

the bridge

is it very fat man.

And you could

give him a shove

he would fall over the bridge

onto the track

right in the way of

the trolley car

he would die

but he would spare the five.

Now, how many would push

the fat man over the bridge? Raise your hand.

How many wouldn't?

Most people wouldn't.

Here's the obvious question,

what became

of the principle

better to save five lives even if it means sacrificing one, what became of the principal

that almost everyone endorsed

in the first case

I need to hear from someone who was in the majority in both

cases is

how do you explain the difference between the two?

The second one I guess involves an active choice of

pushing a person

and down which

I guess that

that person himself would otherwise not have been involved in the situation at all

and so

to choose on his behalf I guess

to

involve him in something that he otherwise would have this escaped is

I guess more than

what you have in the first case where

the three parties, the driver and

the two sets of workers are

already I guess in this situation.

but the guy working, the one on the track off to the side

he didn't choose to sacrifice his life any more than the fat guy did, did he?

That's true, but he was on the tracks.

this guy was on the bridge.

Go ahead, you can come back if you want.

Alright, it's a hard question

but you did well you did very well it's a hard question.

who else

can

find a way of reconciling

the reaction of the majority in these two cases? Yes?

Well I guess

in the first case where

you have the one worker and the five

it's a choice between those two, and you have to

make a certain choice and people are going to die because of the trolley car

not necessarily because of your direct actions. The trolley car is a runway,

thing and you need to make in a split second choice

whereas pushing the fat man over is an actual act of murder on your part

you have control over that

whereas you may not have control over the trolley car.

So I think that it's a slightly different situation.

Alright who has a reply? Is that, who has a reply to that? no that was good, who has a way

who wants to reply?

Is that a way out of this?

I don't think that's a very good reason because you choose

either way you have to choose who dies because you either choose to turn and kill a person

which is an act of conscious

thought to turn,

or you choose to push the fat man

over which is also an active

conscious action so either way you're making a choice.

Do you want to reply?

Well I'm not really sure that that's the case, it just still seems kind of different, the act of actually

pushing someone over onto the tracks and killing them,

you are actually killing him yourself, you're pushing him with your own hands you're pushing and

that's different

than steering something that is going to cause death

into another...you know

it doesn't really sound right saying it now when I'm up here.

No that's good, what's your name?

Andrew.

Andrew and let me ask you this question Andrew,

suppose

standing on the bridge

next to the fat man

I didn't have to push him, suppose he was standing

over a trap door that I could open by turning a steering wheel like that

would you turn it?

For some reason that still just seems more

more wrong.

I mean maybe if you just accidentally like leaned into this steering wheel or something like that

or but,

or say that the car is

hurdling towards a switch that will drop the trap

then I could agree with that.

Fair enough, it still seems

wrong in a way that it doesn't seem wrong in the first case to turn, you say

An in another way, I mean in the first situation you're involved directly with the situation

in the second one you're an onlooker as well.

So you have the choice of becoming involved or not by pushing the fat man.

Let's forget for the moment about this case,

that's good,

but let's imagine a different case. This time your doctor in an emergency room

and six patients come to you

they've been in a terrible trolley car wreck

five of them sustained moderate injuries one is severely injured you could spend all day

caring for the one severely injured victim,

but in that time the five would die, or you could look after the five, restore them to health, but

during that time the one severely injured

person would die.

How many would save

the five

now as the doctor?

How many would save the one?

Very few people,

just a handful of people.

Same reason I assume,

one life versus five.

Now consider

another doctor case

this time you're a transplant surgeon

and you have five patients each in desperate need

of an organ transplant in order to survive

on needs a heart one a lung,

one a kidney,

one a liver

and the fifth

a pancreas.

And you have no organ donors

you are about to

see you them die

and then

it occurs to you

that in the next room

there's a healthy guy who came in for a checkup.

and he is

you like that

and he's taking a nap

you could go in very quietly

yank out the five organs, that person would die

but you can save the five.

How many would do it? Anyone?

How many? Put your hands up if you would do it.

Anyone in the balcony?

You would? Be careful don't lean over too much

How many wouldn't?

All right.

What do you say, speak up in the balcony, you who would

yank out the organs, why?

I'd actually like to explore slightly alternate

possibility of just taking the one

of the five he needs an organ who dies first

and using their four healthy organs to save the other four

That's a pretty good idea.

That's a great idea

except for the fact

that you just wrecked the philosophical point.

Let's step back

from these stories and these arguments

to notice a couple of things

about the way the arguments have began to unfold.

Certain

moral principles

have already begun to emerge

from the discussions we've had

and let's consider

what those moral principles

look like

the first moral principle that emerged from the discussion said

that the right thing to do the moral thing to do

depends on the consequences that will result

from your action

at the end of the day

better that five should live

even if one must die.

That's an example

of consequentialist

moral reasoning.

consequentialist moral reasoning locates morality in the consequences of an act. In the state of the

world that will result

from the thing you do

but then we went a little further, we considered those other cases

and people weren't so sure

about

consequentialist moral reasoning

when people hesitated

to push the fat man

over the bridge

or to yank out the organs of the innocent

patient

people gestured towards

reasons

having to do

with the intrinsic

quality of the act

itself.

Consequences be what they may.

People were reluctant

people thought it was just wrong

categorically wrong

to kill

a person

an innocent person

even for the sake

of saving

five lives, at least these people thought that

in the second

version of each story we reconsidered

so this points

a second

categorical

way

of thinking about

moral reasoning

categorical moral reasoning locates morality in certain absolute moral requirements in

certain categorical duties and rights

regardless of the consequences.

We're going to explore

in the days and weeks to come the contrast between

consequentialist and categorical moral principles.

The most influential

example of

consequential moral reasoning is utilitarianism, a doctrine invented by

Jeremy Bentham, the eighteenth century English political philosopher.

The most important

philosopher of categorical moral reasoning

is the

eighteenth century German philosopher Emmanuel Kant.

So we will look

at those two different modes of moral reasoning

assess them

and also consider others.

If you look at the syllabus, you'll notice that we read a number of great and famous books.

Books by Aristotle

John Locke

Emanuel Kant, John Stuart Mill,

and others.

You'll notice too from the syllabus that we don't only read these books,

we also all

take up

contemporary political and legal controversies that raise philosophical questions.

We will debate equality and inequality,

affirmative action,

free speech versus hate speech,

same sex marriage, military conscription,

a range of practical questions, why

not just to enliven these abstract and distant books

but to make clear to bring out what's at stake in our everyday lives including our political

lives,

for philosophy.

So we will read these books

and we will debate these

issues and we'll see how each informs and illuminates the other.

This may sound appealing enough

but here

I have to issue a warning,

and the warning is this

to read these books

in this way,

as an exercise in self-knowledge,

to read them in this way carry certain risks

risks that are both personal and political,

risks that every student of political philosophy have known.

These risks spring from that fact

that philosophy

teaches us

and unsettles us

by confronting us with what we already know.

There's an irony

the difficulty of this course consists in the fact that it teaches what you already know.

It works by taking

what we know from familiar unquestioned settings,

and making it strange.

That's how those examples worked

worked

the hypotheticals with which we began with their mix of playfulness and sobriety.

it's also how these philosophical books work. Philosophy

estranges us

from the familiar

not by supplying new information

but by inviting

and provoking

a new way of seeing

but, and here's the risk,

once

the familiar turns strange,

it's never quite the same again.

Self-knowledge

is like lost innocence,

however unsettling

you find it,

it can never

be unthought

or unknown

what makes this enterprise difficult

but also riveting,

is that

moral and political philosophy is a story

and you don't know where this story will lead but what you do know

is that the story

is about you.

Those are the personal risks,

now what of the political risks.

one way of introducing of course like this

would be to promise you

that by reading these books

and debating these issues

you will become a better more responsible citizen.

You will examine the presuppositions of public policy, you will hone your political

judgment

you'll become a more effective participant in public affairs

but this would be a partial and misleading promise

political philosophy for the most part hasn't worked that way.

You have to allow for the possibility

that political philosophy may make you a worse citizen

rather than a better one

or at least a worse citizen

before it makes you

a better one

and that's because philosophy

is a distancing

even debilitating

activity

And you see this

going back to Socrates

there's a dialogue, the Gorgias

in which one of Socrates’ friends

Calicles

tries to talk him out

of philosophizing.

calicles tells Socrates philosophy is a pretty toy

if one indulges in it with moderation at the right time of life

but if one pursues it further than one should it is absolute ruin.

Take my advice calicles says,

abandon argument

learn the accomplishments of active life, take

for your models not those people who spend their time on these petty quibbles,

but those who have a good livelihood and reputation

and many other blessings.

So Calicles is really saying to Socrates

quit philosophizing,

get real

go to business school

and calicles did have a point

he had a point

because philosophy distances us

from conventions from established assumptions

and from settled beliefs.

those are the risks,

personal and political

and in the face of these risks there is a characteristic evasion,

the name of the evasion is skepticism. It's the idea

well it goes something like this

we didn't resolve, once and for all,

either the cases or the principles we were arguing when we began

and if Aristotle

and Locke and Kant and Mill haven't solved these questions after all of these years

who are we to think

that we here in Sanders Theatre over the course a semester

can resolve them

and so maybe it's just a matter of

each person having his or her own principles and there's nothing more to be said about

it

no way of reasoning

that's the

evasion. The evasion of skepticism

to which I would offer the following

reply:

it's true

these questions have been debated for a very long time

but the very fact

that they have reoccurred and persisted

may suggest

that though they're impossible in one sense

their unavoidable in another

and the reason they're unavoidable

the reason they're inescapable is that we live some answer

to these questions every day.

So skepticism, just throwing up their hands and giving up on moral reflection,

is no solution

Emanuel Kant

described very well the problem with skepticism when he wrote

skepticism is a resting place for human reason

where it can reflect upon its dogmatic wanderings

but it is no dwelling place for permanent settlement.

Simply to acquiesce in skepticism, Kant wrote,

can never suffice to overcome the restless of reason.

I've tried to suggest through theses stories and these arguments

some sense of the risks and temptations

of the perils and the possibilities I would simply conclude by saying

that the aim of this course

is to awaken

the restlessness of reason

and to see where it might lead

thank you very much.

Like, in a situation that desperate,

you have to do what you have to do to survive. You have to do what you have to do you? You've gotta do

What you

gotta do. pretty much,

If you've been going nineteen days without any food

someone has to take the sacrifice, someone has to make the sacrifice and people can survive. Alright that's good, what's your name? Marcus.

Marcus, what do you say to Marcus?

Last time

we started out last time

with some stores

with some moral dilemmas

about trolley cars

and about doctors

and healthy patients

vulnerable

to being victims of organ transplantation

we noticed two things

about the arguments we had

one had to do with the way we were arguing

it began with our judgments in particular cases

we tried to articulate the reasons or the principles

lying behind our judgments

and then confronted with a new case

we found ourselves re-examining those principles

revising each in the light of the other

and we noticed the built-in pressure to try to bring into alignment

our judgments about particular cases

and the principles we would endorse

on reflection

we also noticed something about the substance of the arguments

that emerged from the discussion.

We noticed that sometimes we were tempted to locate the morality of an act in the consequences

in the results, in the state of the world that it brought about.

We called is consequentialist

moral reason.

But we also noticed that

in some cases

we weren't swayed only

by the results

sometimes,

many of us felt,

that not just consequences but also the intrinsic quality or character of the act

matters morally.

Some people argued that there are certain things that are just categorically wrong

even if they bring about

a good result

even

if they save five people

at the cost of one life.

So we contrasted consequentialist

moral principles

with categorical ones.

Today

and in the next few days

we will begin to examine one of the most influential

versions of consequentialist

moral theory

and that's the philosophy of utilitarianism.

Jeremy Bentham,

the eighteenth century

English political philosopher

gave first

the first clear systematic expression

to the utilitarian

moral theory.

And Bentham's idea,

his essential idea

is a very simple one

with a lot of

morally

intuitive appeal.

Bentham's idea is

the following

the right thing to do

the just thing to do

it's to

maximize

utility.

What did he mean by utility?

He meant by utility the balance

of pleasure over pain,

happiness over suffering.

Here's how we arrived

at the principle

of maximizing utility.

He started out by observing

that all of us

all human beings

are governed by two sovereign masters,

pain and pleasure.

We human beings

like pleasure and dislike pain

and so we should base morality

whether we are thinking of what to do in our own lives

or whether

as legislators or citizens

we are thinking about what the law should be,

the right thing to do individually or collectively

is to maximize, act in a way that maximizes

the overall level

of happiness.

Bentham's utilitarianism is sometimes summed up with the slogan

the greatest good for the greatest number.

With this

basic principle of utility on hand,

let's begin to test it and to examine it

by turning to another case

another story but this time

not a hypothetical story,

a real-life story

the case of

the Queen versus Dudley and Stephens.

This was a nineteenth-century British law case

that's famous

and much debated in law schools.

Here's what happened in the case

I'll summarize the story

and then I want to hear

how you would rule

imagining that you are the jury.

A newspaper account of the time

described the background:

A sadder story of disaster at sea

was never told

than that of the survivors of the yacht

Mignonette.

The ship foundered in the south Atlantic

thirteen hundred miles from the cape

there were four in the crew,

Dudley was the captain

Stephens was the first mate

Brooks was a sailor,

all men of

excellent character,

or so the newspaper account

tells us.

The fourth crew member was the cabin boy,

Richard Parker

seventeen years old.

He was an orphan

he had no family

and he was on his first long voyage at sea.

He went, the news account tells us,

rather against the advice of his friends.

He went in the hopefulness of youthful ambition

thinking the journey would make a man of him.

Sadly it was not to be,

the facts of the case were not in dispute,

a wave hit the ship

and the Mignonette went down.

The four crew members escaped to a lifeboat

the only

food they had

were two

cans of preserved

turnips

no fresh water

for the first three days they ate nothing

on the fourth day that opened one of the cans of turnips

and ate it.

The next day they caught a turtle

together with the other can of turnips

the turtle

enabled them to subsist

for the next few days and then for eight days

they had nothing

no food no water.

Imagine yourself in a situation like that

what would you do?

Here's what they did

by now the cabin boy Parker is lying at the bottom of the lifeboat in a corner

because he had drunk sea water

against the advice of the others

and he had become ill

and he appeared to be dying

so on the nineteenth day Dudley, the captain, suggested

that they should all

have a lottery. That they should

all draw lots to see

who would die

to save the rest.

Brooks

refused

he didn't like the lottery idea

we don't know whether this

was because he didn't want to take that chance or because he believed in categorical moral

principles

but in any case

no lots were drawn.

The next day

there was still no ship in sight

so a Dudley told Brooks to avert his gaze

and he motioned to Stephens

that the boy Parker had better be killed.

Dudley offered a prayer

he told a the boy his time had come

and he killed him with a pen knife

stabbing him in the jugular vein.

Brooks emerged from his conscientious objection to share in the gruesome bounty.

For four days

the three of them fed on the body and blood of the cabin boy.

True story.

And then they were rescued.

Dudley describes their rescue

in his diary

with staggering euphemism, quote:

"on the twenty fourth day

as we were having our breakfast

a ship appeared at last."

The three survivors were picked up by a German ship. They were taken back to Falmouth in England

where they were arrested and tried

Brooks

turned state's witness

Dudley and Stephens went to trial. They didn't dispute the facts

they claimed

they had acted out of necessity

that was their defense

they argued in effect

better that one should die

so that three could survive

the prosecutor

wasn't swayed by that argument

he said murder is murder

and so the case went to trial. Now imagine you are the jury

and just to simplify the discussion

put aside the question of law,

and let's assume that

you as the jury

are charged with deciding

whether what they did was morally

permissible or not.

How many

would vote

not guilty, that what they did was morally permissible?

And how many would vote guilty

what they did was morally wrong?

A pretty sizable majority.

Now let's see what people's reasons are, and let me begin with those who are in the minority.

Let's hear first from the defense

of Dudley and Stephens.

Why would you morally exonerate them?

What are your reasons?

I think it's I think it is morally reprehensible

but I think that there's a distinction between what's morally reprehensible

what makes someone legally accountable

in other words the night as the judge said what's always moral isn't necessarily

against the law and while I don't think that necessity

justifies

theft or murder any illegal act,

at some point your degree of necessity does in fact

exonerate you form any guilt. ok.

other defenders, other voices for the defense?

Moral justifications for

what they did?

yes, thank you

I just feel like

in a situation that desperate you have to do what you have to do to survive.

You have to do what you have to do

ya, you gotta do what you gotta do, pretty much.

If you've been

going nineteen days without any food

you know someone just has to take the sacrifice has to make sacrifices and people can survive

and furthermore from that

let's say they survived and then they become productive members of society who go home and then start like

a million charity organizations and this and that and this and that, I mean they benefit everybody in the end so

I mean I don't know what they did afterwards, I mean they might have

gone on and killed more people

but whatever.

what? what if they were going home and turned out to be assassins?

What if they were going home and turned out to be assassins?

You would want to know who they assassinated.

That's true too, that's fair

I would wanna know who they assassinated.

alright that's good, what's your name? Marcus.

We've heard a defense

a couple voices for the defense

now we need to hear

from the prosecution

most people think

what they did was wrong, why?

One of the first things that I was thinking was, oh well if they haven't been eating for a really long time,

maybe

then

they're mentally affected

that could be used for the defense,

a possible argument that oh,

that they weren't in a proper state of mind, they were making

decisions that they otherwise wouldn't be making, and if that's an appealing argument

that you have to be in an altered mindset to do something like that it suggests that

people who find that argument convincing

do you think that they're acting immorally. But I want to know what you think you're defending

you k 0:37:41.249,0:37:45.549 you voted to convict right? yeah I don't think that they acted in morally

appropriate way. And why not? What do you say, Here's Marcus

he just defended them,

he said,

you heard what he said,

yes I did

yes

that you've got to do what you've got to do in a case like that.

What do you say to Marcus?

They didn't,

that there is no situation that would allow human beings to take

the idea of fate or the other people's lives into their own hands that we don't have

that kind of power.

Good, okay

thanks you, and what's your name?

Britt? okay.

who else?

What do you say? Stand up

I'm wondering if Dudley and Stephens had asked for Richard Parker's consent in, you know, dying,

if that would

would that exonerate them

from an act of murder, and if so is that still morally justifiable?

That's interesting, alright consent, now hang on, what's your name? Kathleen.

Kathleen says suppose so what would that scenario look like?

so in the story

Dudley is there, pen knife in hand,

but instead of the prayer

or before the prayer,

he says, Parker,

would you mind

we're desperately hungry,

as Marcus empathizes with

we're desperately hungry

you're not going to last long anyhow,

you can be a martyr,

would you be a martyr

how about it Parker?

Then, then

then what do you think, would be morally justified then? Suppose

Parker

in his semi-stupor

says okay

I don't think it'll be morally justifiable but I'm wondering. Even then, even then it wouldn't be? No

You don't think that even with consent

it would be morally justified.

Are there people who think

who want to take up Kathleen's

consent idea

and who think that that would make it morally justified? Raise your hand if it would

if you think it would.

That's very interesting

Why would consent

make a moral difference? Why would it?

Well I just think that if he was making his own original idea

and it was his idea to start with

then that would be the only situation in which I would

see it being appropriate in anyway 0:40:25.940,0:40:28.359 because that way you couldn't make the argument that

he was pressured you know it’s three

to one or whatever the ratio was,

and I think that

if he was making a decision to give his life then he took on the agency

to sacrifice himself which some people might see as admirable and other people

might disagree with that decision.

So if he came up with the idea

that's the only kind of consent we could have confidence in

morally, then it would be okay

otherwise

it would be kind of coerced consent

under the circumstances

you think.

Is there anyone who thinks

that the even the consent of Parker

would not justify

their killing him?

Who thinks that?

Yes, tell us why, stand up

I think that Parker

would be killed

with the hope that the other crew members would be rescued so

there's no definite reason that he should be killed

because you don't know

when they're going to get rescued so if you kill him you're killing him in vain

do you keep killing a crew member until you're rescued and then you're left with no one?

because someone's going to die eventually?

Well the moral logic of the situation seems to be that.

That they would

keep on picking off the weakest maybe, one by one,

until they were

rescued and in this case luckily when three at least were still alive.

Now if

if Parker did give his consent

would it be all right do you think or not?

No, it still wouldn't be right.

Tell us why wouldn't be all right.

First of all, cannibalism, I believe

is morally incorrect

so you shouldn’t be eating a human anyway.

So

cannibalism is morally objectionable outside

so then even in the scenario

of waiting until someone died

still it would be objectionable.

Yes, to me personally

I feel like of

it all depends on

one's personal morals, like we can't just, like this is just my opinion

of course other people are going to disagree.

Well let's see, let's hear what their disagreements are

and then we'll see

if they have reasons

that can persuade you or not.

Let's try that

Let's

now is there someone

who can explain, those of you who are tempted by consent

can you explain

why consent makes

such a moral difference,

what about the lottery idea

does that count as consent. Remember at the beginning

Dudley proposed a lottery

suppose that they had agreed

to a lottery

then

how many would then say

it was all right. Say there was a lottery,

cabin boy lost,

and the rest of the story unfolded. How many people would say it's morally permissible?

So the numbers are rising if we add a lottery, let's hear from one of you

for whom the lottery would make a moral difference

why would it?

I think the essential

element,

in my mind that makes it a crime is

the idea that they decided at some point that their lives were more important than his, and that

I mean that's kind of the basis for really any crime

right? It's like

my needs, my desire is a more important than yours and mine take precedent

and if they had done a lottery were everyone consented

that someone should die

and it's sort of like they're all sacrificing themselves,

to save the rest,

Then it would be all right?

A little grotesque but,

But morally permissible? Yes.

what's your name? Matt.

so, Matt for you

what bothers you is not

the cannibalism, but the lack of due process.

I guess you could say that

And can someone who agrees with Matt

say a little bit more

about why

a lottery

would make it, in your view,

morally permissible.

The way I understood it originally was that that was the whole issue is that the cabin boy was never

consulted

about whether or not it something was going to happen to him even though with the original

lottery

whether or not he would be a part of that it was just decided

that he was the one that was going to die. Yes that's what happened in the actual case

but if there were a lottery and they all agreed to the procedure

you think that would be okay?

Right, because everyone knows that there's gonna be a death

whereas

you know the cabin boy didn't know that

this discussion was even happening

there was no

you know forewarning

for him to know that hey, I may be the one that's dying. Okay, now suppose the everyone agrees

to the lottery they have the lottery the cabin boy loses any changes his mind.

You've already decided, it's like a verbal contract, you can't go back on that. You've decided the decision was made

you know if you know you're dying for the reason for at others to live,

you would, you know

if the someone else had died

you know that you would consume them, so

But then he could say I know, but I lost.

I just think that that's the whole moral issue is that there was no consulting of the cabin boy and that that's

what makes it the most horrible

is that he had no idea what was even going on, that if he had known what was going on

it would

be a bit more understandable.

Alright, good, now I want to hear

so there's some who think

it's morally permissible

but only about twenty percent,

led by Marcus,

then there are some who say

the real problem here

is the lack of consent

whether the lack of consent to a lottery to a fair procedure

or

Kathleen's idea,

lack of consent

at the moment

of death

and if we add consent

then

more people are willing to consider

the sacrifice morally justified.

I want to hear now finally

from those of you who think

even with consent

even with a lottery

even with

a final

murmur of consent from Parker

at the

very last moment

it would still

be wrong

and why would it be wrong

that's what I want to hear.

well the whole time

I've been leaning towards the categorical moral reasoning

and I think that

there's a possibility I'd be okay with the idea of the lottery and then loser

taking into their own hands to

kill themselves

so there wouldn't be an act of murder but I still think that

even that way it's coerced and also I don't think that there's any remorse like in

Dudley's diary

we're getting our breakfast

it seems as though he's just sort of like, oh,

you know that whole idea of not valuing someone else's life

so that makes me

feel like I have to take the categorical stance. You want to throw the book at him.

when he lacks remorse or a sense of having done anything wrong. Right.

Alright, good so are there any other

defenders who

who say it's just categorically wrong, with or without consent, yes stand up. Why?

I think undoubtedly the way our society is shaped, murder is murder

murder is murder and every way our society looks down at it in the same light

and I don't think it's any different in any case. Good now let me ask you a question,

there were three lives at stake

versus one,

the one, that the cabin boy, he had no family

he had no dependents,

these other three had families back home in England they had dependents

they had wives and children

think back to Bentham,

Bentham says we have to consider

the welfare, the utility, the happiness

of everybody. We have to add it all up

so it's not just numbers three against one

it's also all of those people at home

in fact the London newspaper at the time

and popular opinion sympathized with them

Dudley in Stephens

and the paper said if they weren't

motivated

by affection

and concern for their loved ones at home and dependents, surely they wouldn't have

done this. Yeah, and how is that any different from people

on the corner

trying to having the same desire to feed their family, I don't think it's any different. I think in any case

if I'm murdering you to advance my status, that's murder and I think that we should look at all

of that in the same light. Instead of criminalizing certain

activities

and making certain things seem more violent and savage

when in that same case it's all the same act and mentality

that goes into the murder, a necessity to feed their families.

Suppose there weren't three, supposed there were thirty,

three hundred,

one life to save three hundred

or in more time,

three thousand

or suppose the stakes were even bigger.

Suppose the stakes were even bigger

I think it's still the same deal.

Do you think Bentham was wrong to say the right thing to do

is to add

up the collected happiness, you think he's wrong about that?

I don't think he is wrong, but I think murder is murder in any case. Well then Bentham has to be wrong

if you're right he's wrong. okay then he's wrong.

Alright thank you, well done.

Alright, let's step back

from this discussion

and notice

how many objections have we heard to what they did.

we heard some defenses of what they did

the defense has had to do with

necessity

the dire circumstance and,

implicitly at least,

the idea that numbers matter

and not only numbers matter

but the wider effects matter

their families back home, their dependents

Parker was an orphan,

no one would miss him.

so if you

add up

if you tried to calculate

the balance

of happiness and suffering

you might have a case for

saying what they did was the right thing

then we heard at least three different types of objections,

we heard an objection that's said

what they did was categorically wrong,

right here at the end

categorically wrong.

Murder is murder it's always wrong

even if

it increases the overall happiness

of society

the categorical objection.

But we still need to investigate

why murder

is categorically wrong.

Is it because

even cabin boys have certain fundamental rights?

And if that's the reason

where do those rights come from if not from some idea

of the larger welfare or utility or happiness? Question number one.

Others said

a lottery would make a difference

a fair procedure,

Matt said.

And some people were swayed by that.

That's not a categorical objection exactly

it's saying

everybody has to be counted as an equal

even though, at the end of the day

one can be sacrificed

for the general welfare.

That leaves us with another question to investigate,

Why does agreement to certain procedure,

even a fair procedure,

justify whatever result flows

from the operation of that procedure?

Question number two.

and question number three

the basic idea of consent.

Kathleen got us on to this.

If the cabin boy had agreed himself

and not under duress

as was added

then it would be all right to take his life to save the rest.

Even more people signed on to that idea

but that raises

a third philosophical question

what is the moral work

that consent

does?

Why does an act of consent

make such a moral difference

that an act that would be wrong, taking a life, without consent

is morally

permissible

with consent?

To investigate those three questions

we're going to have to read some philosophers

and starting next time

we're going to read

Bentham,

and John Stuart Mill, utilitarian philosophers.

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