-
Chris Anderson:
So, Jon, this feels scary.
-
Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.
-
It feels like the world is in a place
that we haven't seen for a long time.
-
People don't just disagree
in the way that we're familiar with.
-
The left-right political divide.
-
There are much deeper differences afoot.
-
What on earth is going on
and how did we get here?
-
Jonathan Haidt: This is different.
-
There's a much more
apocalyptic sort of feeling.
-
Survey research by Pew Research shows
-
that the degree to which we feel
that the other side is not just --
-
we just don't dislike them,
we strongly dislike them,
-
and we think that they are
a threat to the nation.
-
Those numbers have been going up and up,
and are over 50 percent now on both sides.
-
People are scared because it feels
like this is different than before.
-
It's much more intense.
-
Whenever I look
at any sort of social puzzle,
-
I always just apply the three
basic principles of moral psychology,
-
and I think they'll help us here.
-
So the first thing
that you have to always keep in mind
-
when you're thinking about politics,
-
is that we're tribal.
-
We evolved for tribalism.
-
One of the simplest and greatest
insights into human social nature
-
is the bedouin proverb:
-
me against my brother,
-
me and my brother against our cousin,
-
my and my brother and cousins
against the stranger.
-
And so that tribalism
allowed us to create large societies
-
and to come together
in order to compete with others.
-
That brought us out of the jungle
and out of small groups,
-
but it means that
we have internal conflict.
-
And the question you have to look at
-
is what aspects of our society
are making that more bitter,
-
and what are calming them down.
-
CA: That's a very dark proverb.
-
You're saying that that's actually
-
baked into most people's
mental wiring at some level.
-
JH: Oh yeah, absolutely.
-
This is just a basic aspect
of human social cognition.
-
But we can also live together
really peacefully
-
and we've invented all kinds
of fun ways of, like, playing war.
-
I mean, sports, politics --
-
these are all ways that we get
to exercise this tribal nature
-
without actually hurting anyone.
-
We're actually also very good at trade
and exploration and meeting new people.
-
So you have to see our tribalism
as something that goes up or down.
-
It's not like we're doomed
to always be fighting each other,
-
but we'll never have world peace.
-
CA: The size of that tribe
can shrink or expand.
-
JH: Right.
-
CA: The size of what we consider us
-
and what we consider other or them
-
can change.
-
And some people believe
-
that that process
could continue indefinitely.
-
JH: That's right.
-
CA: And that we were indeed expanding
the sense of tribe for a while.
-
JH: So this is, I think,
-
where we're getting at what's possibly
the new left-right distinction.
-
I mean, the left-right
as we've all inherited it,
-
comes out of the, you know,
labor versus capital distinction,
-
and the working class, Marks --
-
But I think what we're seeing
now increasingly
-
is a divide in all
the Western democracies
-
between the people
who want to stop at nation,
-
the people who are more parochial --
-
I don't mean that in a bad way --
-
people who have much more
of a sense of being rooted,
-
they care about their town,
their community, and their nation.
-
And then those who are antiparochial
-
and who --
-
Whenever I get confused, I just think
of the John Lennon song "Imagine."
-
"Imagine there's no countries.
Nothing to kill or die for."
-
And so these are the people
who want more global governance,
-
they don't like nation states,
they don't like borders.
-
You see this all over Europe as well.
-
There's a great metaphor guy --
actually, his name is Shakespeare --
-
writing ten years ago in Britain.
-
He had a metaphor:
-
"Are we drawbridge-uppers
or drawbridge-downers?"
-
And Britain is divided
52-48 on that point.
-
And America is divided
on that point, too.
-
CA: Hmm. And so --
-
those of us who grew up with The Beatles
and that sort of hippie philosophy
-
of dreaming of a more connected world --
-
and it felt so idealistic, and how could
anyone think badly about that?
-
What you're saying is that actually
-
millions of people today
feel that that isn't just silly,
-
it's actually dangerous and wrong,
and they're scared of it.
-
JH: I think the big issue,
especially in Europe, but also here,
-
is the issue of immigration.
-
And I think this is
where we have to look very carefully
-
at the social science
about diversity and immigration.
-
Once something becomes politicized,
-
one it becomes something
that the left loves, and the right --
-
then even the social scientists
can't think straight about it.
-
Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.
-
It clearly creates more innovation,
-
the American economy
has grown enormously from it.
-
Diversity and immigration
do a lot of good things,
-
but what the globalists,
I think, don't see,
-
what they don't want to see,
-
is that ethnic diversity
cuts social capital and trust.
-
There's a very important study
by Robert Putnam,
-
the author of "Bowling alone,"
-
looking at social capital databases.
-
And basically, the more people feel
that they are the same,
-
the more they trust each other,
-
the more they can have
a redistributionist welfare state.
-
Scandinavian countries are so wonderful
-
because they have this legacy
of being small, homogenous countries.
-
And that leads to a set
of progressive welfare state --
-
a set of progressive left-leaning values,
-
which says, "Drawbridge down!
The world is a great place.
-
People in Syria are suffering.
We must welcome them in."
-
And it's a beautiful thing.
-
But if --
-
and I was in Sweden this summer --
-
if the discourse in Sweden
is fairly politically correct,
-
and they can't talk about the downsides,
-
you end up bringing a lot of people in,
-
that's going to cut social capital,
it makes it hard to have a welfare state
-
and they might end up,
as we have in America,
-
with a racially divided --
visibly racially divided society.
-
So this is all very
uncomfortable to talk about.
-
But I think this is the thing --
especially in Europe, and for us, too --
-
we need to be looking at.
-
CA: You're saying that people of reason,
-
people who would
consider themselves not racists,
-
but moral, upstanding people,
-
have a rationale that says,
-
"Look, humans are just too different."
-
We're in danger of overloading
our sense of what humans are capable of
-
by mixing people who are too different.
-
JH: Yes, but I can make it
much more palatable
-
by saying it's not necessarily about race.
-
It's about culture.
-
And so there's wonderful work
-
by a political scientist
named Karen Stenner,
-
who shows that when people have a sense
-
that we are all united,
we're all the same,
-
there are many people who have
a predisposition to authoritarianism.
-
Those people aren't particularly racist
-
when they feel there's no threat
to our social and moral order.
-
But if you prime them experimentally
-
by thinking we're coming apart,
people are getting more different,
-
then they get more racist, homophobic,
they want to kick out the deviants.
-
So it's in part that you get
an authoritarian reaction.
-
The left, following through
the Leninist line, the John Lennon line,
-
does things that create
an authoritarian reaction.
-
So we're certainly seeing that
in America with the ultraright.
-
We saw it in Britain,
we're seeing that all over Europe.
-
But the more positive part of that
-
is that I think the localists,
or the nationalists are actually right.
-
That if you emphasize
our cultural similarity,
-
then race doesn't
actually matter very much.
-
So an assimilationist
approach to immigration
-
removes a lot of these problems.
-
And if you value having
a generous welfare state,
-
you've got to emphasize
that we're all the same.
-
CA: OK, so rising immigration
and fears about that
-
are one of the causes
of the current divide.
-
What are other causes?
-
JH: The next principle of moral psychology
-
is that intuitions come first,
strategic reasoning second.
-
And you've probably heard
the term "motivated reasoning"
-
or "confirmation bias."
-
So there's some really interesting work
-
on how our high intelligence
and our verbal abilities
-
might have evolved
not to help us find out the truth,
-
but to help us manipulate each other,
defend a reputation.
-
We're really, really good
at justifying ourselves.
-
And if you bring
group interests into account,
-
so it's not just me,
it's my team versus your team,
-
you know, if you're evaluating evidence
that your side is wrong,
-
we just can't accept that.
-
And so this is why
you can't win a political argument.
-
If you're debating something,
-
you can't persuade the person
with reasons and evidence.
-
Because that's not
the way reasoning works.
-
And so, now give us the Internet.
-
Give us Google.
-
You know, "I heard that Barack Obama
was born in Kenya,
-
let me Google that.
-
Oh my God! 10 million hits!
Look, he was!"
-
CA: So this is an unpleasant surprise
to a lot of people.
-
The social media has often been framed
by technooptimists
-
as this great connecting force
that would bring people together.
-
And there have been
some unexpected countereffects to that.
-
JH: That's right.
And that's why I'm very enamored
-
of sort of ying-yang views
of human nature and left-right.
-
That each side is right
about certain things,
-
but then it goes blind to other things.
-
And so the left generally believes
that human nature is good,
-
bring people together,
knock down the walls and all will be well.
-
The right -- social conservatives,
not libertarians --
-
social conservatives generally believe
-
people can be greedy
and sexual and selfish,
-
and we need regulation,
and we need restrictions.
-
So yeah, if you knock down
all the walls --
-
a lot of people communicate
all over the world --
-
you get a lot of porn
and a lot of racism.
-
CA: So help us understand.
-
These principles of human nature
have been with us forever.
-
What's changed that's deepened
this feeling of division?
-
JH: You have to see six to 10 different
threads all coming together.
-
I'll just list a couple of them.
-
So in America --
actually, in America and Europe --
-
one of the biggest ones is World War II.
-
There's interesting research
from Joe Henrich and others
-
that if your country was at war,
-
especially when you were young,
-
then we test you 30 years later
in a commons dilemma,
-
or a prisoner's dilemma,
-
you're more cooperative.
-
Because of our tribal nature, if you're --
-
You know, my parents were teenagers
during World War II
-
and, you know, they would go out
looking for scraps of aluminum,
-
to help the war effort.
-
I mean, everybody pulled together.
-
And so then these people go on,
-
they rise up through business
and government,
-
they take leadership positions.
-
They're really good
at compromise and cooperation.
-
They all retire by the 90's.
-
So we're left with baby-boomers
by the end of the 90's.
-
And their youth was spent
fighting each other within each country,
-
1968 and afterwards.
-
So the loss of
the World War II generation,
-
the greatest generation, is huge.
-
So that's one.
-
Another in America
is the purification of the two parties.
-
There used to be liberal Republicans
and conservative Democrats.
-
So the mid-20th century,
that was really bipartisan.
-
But because of a variety of factors
that started things moving
-
by the 90's we had purified
liberal party and conservative party.
-
And so now the people
in those parties really are different.
-
And now we really don't want
our children to marry them,
-
which in the 60's didn't matter very much.
-
So the purification of the parties.
-
Third is the Internet.
-
And as I said,
-
it's just the most amazing stimulant
for post hoc reasoning and demonization.
-
CA: The tone of what's happening
on the Internet now is quite troubling.
-
I just did a quick search on Twitter
about the election
-
and saw two tweets next to each other.
-
One against a picture
of a sort of racist graffiti.
-
"This is disgusting,
-
Ugliness in this country,
brought to us by #Trump."
-
And then the next one is:
-
"Crooked Hillary
dedication page. Disgusting!"
-
So this idea of disgust
is troubling to me.
-
Because you can have an argument
or a disagreement about something,
-
you can get angry at someone.
-
Disgust, I've heard you say,
takes things to a much deeper level.
-
JH: That's right. Disgust is different.
-
Anger, you know -- I have kids,
they fight 10 times a day,
-
and they love each other 30 times a day.
-
You just go back and forth.
You get angry, you're not angry.
-
But disgust is different.
-
Disgust paints the person
as being subhuman, monstrous,
-
deformed -- morally deformed.
-
Disgust is like indelible ink.
-
There's research from John Gottman
on marital therapy.
-
If you look at the faces,
-
if one of the couple
shows disgust or contempt,
-
that's a predictor that
they're going to get divorced soon.
-
Whereas if they show anger,
that actually doesn't predict anything.
-
Because if you deal with anger well,
it actually is good.
-
So this election is different.
-
Donald Trump personally
uses the word "disgust" a lot.
-
He's very germ-sensitive,
so disgust does matter a lot.
-
More for him,
that is something unique to him,
-
but as we demonize each other more,
-
and again, through
the Manichaean worldview,
-
the idea that the world
is a battle between good and evil,
-
as this has been ramping up,
-
we're likely not just to say
they're wrong or I don't like them,
-
but we say they're evil, they're satanic,
-
they're disgusting, they're revolting.
-
And then we want nothing to do with them.
-
And that's why I think we see --
-
We're seeing it, for example, on campus.
-
Now we're seeing more
the urge to keep people off campus.
-
Silence them, keep them away.
-
I'm afraid that this whole
generation of young people,
-
if their introduction to politics
involves a lot of disgust,
-
they're not going to want
to be involved in politics,
-
as they get older.
-
CA: So how do we deal with that?
-
Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?
-
JH:
Dewi Barnas
19:47 - 19:51
It's really does feel like
the ground that we're on
=> it should be "It really does feel like"
Brian Greene
The typo at 19:47 was fixed on 11/11/2016.
Dewi Barnas
Thanks Brian!
Brice LS
Does anybody know how to enable French subtitles on this ? I would happily translate the subtitles in French but can't find a link to start the translation…
Dewi Barnas
Hi Brice,
Someone is currently doing the translation:
http://amara.org/en/teams/ted/tasks/?project=&assignee=anyone&q=jonathan+haidt&lang=fr
Dewi Barnas
Hi Brice,
Someone is currently doing the translation:
http://amara.org/en/teams/ted/tasks/?project=&assignee=anyone&q=jonathan+haidt&lang=fr
Brice LS
Ah okay, thanks for your answer Dewi.