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Can a divided America heal?

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    Chris Anderson:
    So, Jon, this feels scary.
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    Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.
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    It feels like the world is in a place
    that we haven't seen for a long time.
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    People don't just disagree
    in the way that we're familiar with.
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    The left-right political divide.
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    There are much deeper differences afoot.
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    What on earth is going on
    and how did we get here?
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    Jonathan Haidt: This is different.
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    There's a much more
    apocalyptic sort of feeling.
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    Survey research by Pew Research shows
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    that the degree to which we feel
    that the other side is not just --
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    we just don't dislike them,
    we strongly dislike them,
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    and we think that they are
    a threat to the nation.
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    Those numbers have been going up and up,
    and are over 50 percent now on both sides.
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    People are scared because it feels
    like this is different than before.
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    It's much more intense.
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    Whenever I look
    at any sort of social puzzle,
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    I always just apply the three
    basic principles of moral psychology,
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    and I think they'll help us here.
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    So the first thing
    that you have to always keep in mind
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    when you're thinking about politics,
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    is that we're tribal.
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    We evolved for tribalism.
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    One of the simplest and greatest
    insights into human social nature
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    is the bedouin proverb:
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    me against my brother,
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    me and my brother against our cousin,
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    my and my brother and cousins
    against the stranger.
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    And so that tribalism
    allowed us to create large societies
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    and to come together
    in order to compete with others.
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    That brought us out of the jungle
    and out of small groups,
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    but it means that
    we have internal conflict.
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    And the question you have to look at
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    is what aspects of our society
    are making that more bitter,
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    and what are calming them down.
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    CA: That's a very dark proverb.
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    You're saying that that's actually
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    baked into most people's
    mental wiring at some level.
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    JH: Oh yeah, absolutely.
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    This is just a basic aspect
    of human social cognition.
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    But we can also live together
    really peacefully
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    and we've invented all kinds
    of fun ways of, like, playing war.
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    I mean, sports, politics --
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    these are all ways that we get
    to exercise this tribal nature
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    without actually hurting anyone.
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    We're actually also very good at trade
    and exploration and meeting new people.
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    So you have to see our tribalism
    as something that goes up or down.
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    It's not like we're doomed
    to always be fighting each other,
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    but we'll never have world peace.
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    CA: The size of that tribe
    can shrink or expand.
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    JH: Right.
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    CA: The size of what we consider us
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    and what we consider other or them
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    can change.
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    And some people believe
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    that that process
    could continue indefinitely.
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    JH: That's right.
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    CA: And that we were indeed expanding
    the sense of tribe for a while.
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    JH: So this is, I think,
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    where we're getting at what's possibly
    the new left-right distinction.
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    I mean, the left-right
    as we've all inherited it,
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    comes out of the, you know,
    labor versus capital distinction,
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    and the working class, Marks --
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    But I think what we're seeing
    now increasingly
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    is a divide in all
    the Western democracies
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    between the people
    who want to stop at nation,
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    the people who are more parochial --
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    I don't mean that in a bad way --
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    people who have much more
    of a sense of being rooted,
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    they care about their town,
    their community, and their nation.
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    And then those who are antiparochial
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    and who --
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    Whenever I get confused, I just think
    of the John Lennon song "Imagine."
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    "Imagine there's no countries.
    Nothing to kill or die for."
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    And so these are the people
    who want more global governance,
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    they don't like nation states,
    they don't like borders.
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    You see this all over Europe as well.
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    There's a great metaphor guy --
    actually, his name is Shakespeare --
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    writing ten years ago in Britain.
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    He had a metaphor:
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    "Are we drawbridge-uppers
    or drawbridge-downers?"
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    And Britain is divided
    52-48 on that point.
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    And America is divided
    on that point, too.
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    CA: Hmm. And so --
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    those of us who grew up with The Beatles
    and that sort of hippie philosophy
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    of dreaming of a more connected world --
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    and it felt so idealistic, and how could
    anyone think badly about that?
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    What you're saying is that actually
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    millions of people today
    feel that that isn't just silly,
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    it's actually dangerous and wrong,
    and they're scared of it.
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    JH: I think the big issue,
    especially in Europe, but also here,
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    is the issue of immigration.
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    And I think this is
    where we have to look very carefully
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    at the social science
    about diversity and immigration.
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    Once something becomes politicized,
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    one it becomes something
    that the left loves, and the right --
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    then even the social scientists
    can't think straight about it.
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    Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.
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    It clearly creates more innovation,
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    the American economy
    has grown enormously from it.
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    Diversity and immigration
    do a lot of good things,
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    but what the globalists,
    I think, don't see,
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    what they don't want to see,
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    is that ethnic diversity
    cuts social capital and trust.
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    There's a very important study
    by Robert Putnam,
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    the author of "Bowling alone,"
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    looking at social capital databases.
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    And basically, the more people feel
    that they are the same,
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    the more they trust each other,
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    the more they can have
    a redistributionist welfare state.
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    Scandinavian countries are so wonderful
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    because they have this legacy
    of being small, homogenous countries.
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    And that leads to a set
    of progressive welfare state --
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    a set of progressive left-leaning values,
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    which says, "Drawbridge down!
    The world is a great place.
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    People in Syria are suffering.
    We must welcome them in."
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    And it's a beautiful thing.
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    But if --
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    and I was in Sweden this summer --
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    if the discourse in Sweden
    is fairly politically correct,
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    and they can't talk about the downsides,
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    you end up bringing a lot of people in,
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    that's going to cut social capital,
    it makes it hard to have a welfare state
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    and they might end up,
    as we have in America,
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    with a racially divided --
    visibly racially divided society.
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    So this is all very
    uncomfortable to talk about.
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    But I think this is the thing --
    especially in Europe, and for us, too --
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    we need to be looking at.
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    CA: You're saying that people of reason,
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    people who would
    consider themselves not racists,
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    but moral, upstanding people,
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    have a rationale that says,
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    "Look, humans are just too different."
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    We're in danger of overloading
    our sense of what humans are capable of
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    by mixing people who are too different.
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    JH: Yes, but I can make it
    much more palatable
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    by saying it's not necessarily about race.
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    It's about culture.
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    And so there's wonderful work
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    by a political scientist
    named Karen Stenner,
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    who shows that when people have a sense
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    that we are all united,
    we're all the same,
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    there are many people who have
    a predisposition to authoritarianism.
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    Those people aren't particularly racist
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    when they feel there's no threat
    to our social and moral order.
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    But if you prime them experimentally
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    by thinking we're coming apart,
    people are getting more different,
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    then they get more racist, homophobic,
    they want to kick out the deviants.
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    So it's in part that you get
    an authoritarian reaction.
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    The left, following through
    the Leninist line, the John Lennon line,
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    does things that create
    an authoritarian reaction.
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    So we're certainly seeing that
    in America with the ultraright.
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    We saw it in Britain,
    we're seeing that all over Europe.
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    But the more positive part of that
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    is that I think the localists,
    or the nationalists are actually right.
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    That if you emphasize
    our cultural similarity,
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    then race doesn't
    actually matter very much.
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    So an assimilationist
    approach to immigration
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    removes a lot of these problems.
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    And if you value having
    a generous welfare state,
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    you've got to emphasize
    that we're all the same.
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    CA: OK, so rising immigration
    and fears about that
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    are one of the causes
    of the current divide.
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    What are other causes?
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    JH: The next principle of moral psychology
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    is that intuitions come first,
    strategic reasoning second.
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    And you've probably heard
    the term "motivated reasoning"
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    or "confirmation bias."
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    So there's some really interesting work
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    on how our high intelligence
    and our verbal abilities
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    might have evolved
    not to help us find out the truth,
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    but to help us manipulate each other,
    defend a reputation.
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    We're really, really good
    at justifying ourselves.
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    And if you bring
    group interests into account,
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    so it's not just me,
    it's my team versus your team,
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    you know, if you're evaluating evidence
    that your side is wrong,
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    we just can't accept that.
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    And so this is why
    you can't win a political argument.
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    If you're debating something,
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    you can't persuade the person
    with reasons and evidence.
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    Because that's not
    the way reasoning works.
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    And so, now give us the Internet.
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    Give us Google.
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    You know, "I heard that Barack Obama
    was born in Kenya,
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    let me Google that.
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    Oh my God! 10 million hits!
    Look, he was!"
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    CA: So this is an unpleasant surprise
    to a lot of people.
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    The social media has often been framed
    by technooptimists
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    as this great connecting force
    that would bring people together.
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    And there have been
    some unexpected countereffects to that.
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    JH: That's right.
    And that's why I'm very enamored
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    of sort of ying-yang views
    of human nature and left-right.
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    That each side is right
    about certain things,
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    but then it goes blind to other things.
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    And so the left generally believes
    that human nature is good,
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    bring people together,
    knock down the walls and all will be well.
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    The right -- social conservatives,
    not libertarians --
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    social conservatives generally believe
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    people can be greedy
    and sexual and selfish,
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    and we need regulation,
    and we need restrictions.
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    So yeah, if you knock down
    all the walls --
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    a lot of people communicate
    all over the world --
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    you get a lot of porn
    and a lot of racism.
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    CA: So help us understand.
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    These principles of human nature
    have been with us forever.
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    What's changed that's deepened
    this feeling of division?
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    JH: You have to see six to 10 different
    threads all coming together.
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    I'll just list a couple of them.
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    So in America --
    actually, in America and Europe --
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    one of the biggest ones is World War II.
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    There's interesting research
    from Joe Henrich and others
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    that if your country was at war,
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    especially when you were young,
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    then we test you 30 years later
    in a commons dilemma,
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    or a prisoner's dilemma,
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    you're more cooperative.
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    Because of our tribal nature, if you're --
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    You know, my parents were teenagers
    during World War II
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    and, you know, they would go out
    looking for scraps of aluminum,
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    to help the war effort.
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    I mean, everybody pulled together.
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    And so then these people go on,
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    they rise up through business
    and government,
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    they take leadership positions.
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    They're really good
    at compromise and cooperation.
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    They all retire by the 90's.
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    So we're left with baby-boomers
    by the end of the 90's.
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    And their youth was spent
    fighting each other within each country,
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    1968 and afterwards.
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    So the loss of
    the World War II generation,
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    the greatest generation, is huge.
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    So that's one.
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    Another in America
    is the purification of the two parties.
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    There used to be liberal Republicans
    and conservative Democrats.
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    So the mid-20th century,
    that was really bipartisan.
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    But because of a variety of factors
    that started things moving
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    by the 90's we had purified
    liberal party and conservative party.
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    And so now the people
    in those parties really are different.
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    And now we really don't want
    our children to marry them,
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    which in the 60's didn't matter very much.
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    So the purification of the parties.
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    Third is the Internet.
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    And as I said,
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    it's just the most amazing stimulant
    for post hoc reasoning and demonization.
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    CA: The tone of what's happening
    on the Internet now is quite troubling.
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    I just did a quick search on Twitter
    about the election
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    and saw two tweets next to each other.
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    One against a picture
    of a sort of racist graffiti.
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    "This is disgusting,
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    Ugliness in this country,
    brought to us by #Trump."
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    And then the next one is:
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    "Crooked Hillary
    dedication page. Disgusting!"
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    So this idea of disgust
    is troubling to me.
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    Because you can have an argument
    or a disagreement about something,
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    you can get angry at someone.
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    Disgust, I've heard you say,
    takes things to a much deeper level.
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    JH: That's right. Disgust is different.
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    Anger, you know -- I have kids,
    they fight 10 times a day,
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    and they love each other 30 times a day.
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    You just go back and forth.
    You get angry, you're not angry.
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    But disgust is different.
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    Disgust paints the person
    as being subhuman, monstrous,
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    deformed -- morally deformed.
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    Disgust is like indelible ink.
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    There's research from John Gottman
    on marital therapy.
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    If you look at the faces,
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    if one of the couple
    shows disgust or contempt,
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    that's a predictor that
    they're going to get divorced soon.
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    Whereas if they show anger,
    that actually doesn't predict anything.
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    Because if you deal with anger well,
    it actually is good.
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    So this election is different.
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    Donald Trump personally
    uses the word "disgust" a lot.
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    He's very germ-sensitive,
    so disgust does matter a lot.
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    More for him,
    that is something unique to him,
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    but as we demonize each other more,
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    and again, through
    the Manichaean worldview,
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    the idea that the world
    is a battle between good and evil,
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    as this has been ramping up,
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    we're likely not just to say
    they're wrong or I don't like them,
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    but we say they're evil, they're satanic,
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    they're disgusting, they're revolting.
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    And then we want nothing to do with them.
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    And that's why I think we see --
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    We're seeing it, for example, on campus.
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    Now we're seeing more
    the urge to keep people off campus.
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    Silence them, keep them away.
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    I'm afraid that this whole
    generation of young people,
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    if their introduction to politics
    involves a lot of disgust,
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    they're not going to want
    to be involved in politics,
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    as they get older.
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    CA: So how do we deal with that?
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    Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?
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    JH:
Title:
Can a divided America heal?
Speaker:
Jonathan Haidt
Description:

more » « less
Video Language:
English
Team:
closed TED
Project:
TEDTalks
Duration:
20:17
  • 19:47 - 19:51
    It's really does feel like
    the ground that we're on

    => it should be "It really does feel like"

  • The typo at 19:47 was fixed on 11/11/2016.

  • Thanks Brian!

  • Does anybody know how to enable French subtitles on this ? I would happily translate the subtitles in French but can't find a link to start the translation…

  • Hi Brice,

    Someone is currently doing the translation:
    http://amara.org/en/teams/ted/tasks/?project=&assignee=anyone&q=jonathan+haidt&lang=fr

  • Hi Brice,

    Someone is currently doing the translation:
    http://amara.org/en/teams/ted/tasks/?project=&assignee=anyone&q=jonathan+haidt&lang=fr

  • Ah okay, thanks for your answer Dewi.

English subtitles

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