Last of Us Part II Designer Breaks Down the Game's Best Level

Hi, I'm Mark Brown and this is Game Maker's
Toolkit - a YouTube series about game design.

A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of speaking
to Evan Hill - a former level designer at

Naughty Dog, who worked on one of my favourite
parts of The Last of Us Part II.

Evan was responsible for a level called The
Birthday Gift: a level about Joel and Ellie's

relationship that takes place in a nostalgic
flashback, set between the events of the two games.

Joel: "Happy Birthday, kiddo."

So I set up a three-way Discord chat with
me, Evan, and a mirror of my PS4 output - so

he could provide commentary on his level as
I played through it.

And, you know what?

The conversation was so interesting that I
couldn’t think of a better way to do it

justice than to simply share a, uh, heavily
edited version of our chat.

So, without further ado, let's just jump on
in and find out how a level like this gets made.

♫ Guitar ♫

Mark: "So how does a level like this begin?

Are you given a brief from Neil about what
the level should be like, and what it should contain?"

Evan: "So for this sequence, and a lot of
sequences, all I got from Neil was two paragraphs.

We had this big Excel spreadsheet of the game
in its totality, what we needed, and there

were two cells dedicated to the museum: we
show that Joel taught Ellie to swim, and we

have the thing in the museum where they confront
each other about the fireflies.

That was basically it.

And from there they basically just said 'go'."

Mark: "And so then are you drawing maps and
sketches, or do you just go straight into

the level creation tools?"

Evan: "I tend to go straight into blockmesh.

Most people at Naughty Dog tend to as well.

One of the kind of truisms is that you only
know if it works if it's in 3D.

The simplest and quickest way is to just jump
into the closest version of the final game."

Mark: "And then in this blockmesh, do you
have it so you can control Ellie with the

PlayStation 4 controller and the same camera
and things like that?"

Evan: "Exactly.

Same camera, same animations.

Getting the exact camera proportions, getting
the exact character controller in there is

the big reason we do it like that.

You're just able to get a sense of what it
plays like."

Mark: "So the level begins in this outdoor,
very open area.

How do you funnel the player in, and deal
with tricky things like draw distance?"

Evan: "Honestly it's a massive pain.

Like you can kinda see here, the trick is
to try and give the sense of boundlessness

while always still producing natural barriers.

Where it's like even if you were to jump in
the water you'd get the feeling 'I'm not going

to climb over all of that and crest that hill'.

But the big takeaway answer is a lot of smoke
and mirrors, a wonderful art team that knows

to work within those constraints."

Mark: "So the next part is kind of a tutorial
because I think this is the first time we've

seen Ellie swimming, right?"

Evan: "Yes.
First that Ellie has on-screen swam.

Initially it was going to be an actual swimming
lesson but as we iterated on it we figured,

no, this could actually be a turn, a reveal
that they've already done that.

We've already accomplished this moment.

And it gives Joel this really wonderfully
dad-like tease with her."

Mark: "Then we get to this fun reversal where
Ellie pushes Joel in the water."

Evan: "I think for a while it wasn't even
a reversal.

She was like hop in, all these other things.

For a while after that it was also just going
to be a cutscene and I actually had to personally

harass Neil a little bit to be like 'can we
keep the button in?'

I think it adds a lot of value just being
able to be the motivator for this small turnaround.

Really adds a lot."

Mark: "One of the things Naughty Dog is known
for is guiding the player with things like

weenies, and colour, and lighting.

Are you still using those techniques on a
more exploratory level like this one?"

Evan: "The whole bucket is still getting thrown
at everything all the time.

I think the biggest one that's most prominent
obviously is Joel leading you through the

initial section of the level so he's just
this constant sign, basically: 'go here!

Follow me!'

But then we flip it, like right here, where
he actually stops and lets you push forward

into the brush, you start looking towards
the light.

Because he's now, at this point in the narrative,
just going 'okay, I'm going to let her wander

into this.

I'm going to stop leading.'
He even shuts up and she's like 'what is it?'

Ellie: "Oh my god! It is a dinosaur!"

Evan: "Like here, even on the dinosaur, we
try to use ivy and colour.

You look at the tail and it's a brighter hue
just to try and draw your eye and give you

a sense of 'hey, this is secretly climbable.

Hey, you can do this.'

And again Joel is leading you around this
so we're always at least hinting at the possibilities

rather than leading you directly."

Mark: "Climbing the dinosaur is definitely
one of these fantastic moments in the level.

How do these moment come about?"

Evan: "Basically a lot of this came out in
the walkthroughs.

So I would do a layout and then we'd actually
sit down with Neil and play it through, on

the stick, and improv the characters.

And actually from that improv, a lot of the
memorable moments evolved by themselves.

I had a really dirty version of the dinosaur
- I mean really awful - even just seeing that,

Neil's first question when he looked at it
was 'can I climb it?'

And so we were like 'yeah!
Yeah, okay let's do that. Let's…"

Ellie: *Yells*

Mark: "When the player tries something like
climbing the dinosaur, there's usually a funny

or cute voice line in response.

So what comes first, the dialogue or the level
design?"

Evan: "A lot of these wonderful lines were
actually done kind of later in the process

where Halley and Neil would come through,
work with us on the level and scripting team,

and figure out what would sell the moment
best.

And I think that's why everything feels so
interlaced and grounded is because a lot of

the dialogue is actually written in reaction
to the art.

The level designers will make something for
navigation or some other purpose, and then

the writers go in and fill out naturally with
how the character's voice would describe that.

Mark: "So tell me a bit about this introductory
area in the museum."

Evan: "So for this part we wanted to give
a bit more of a neutral opening.

So this is one of those examples of where
we actually turn down a lot of those navigational

techniques a little bit.

So that you don't feel like you're being rail-roaded
or there's some kind of golden path.

But instead you're engaging with the space
directly.

You're the one actively trying to piece together
and figure out what the space is."

Mark: "So there's lots of things we can interact
with in this part of the museum, but many

of the interactions are really short.

Was that intentional?"

Evan: "Exactly.

Because we're letting the player drive the
pacing of this sequence, we wanted to keep

each individual chunk as small and
responsive as possible.

So they're quippy, they're punchy, and it
just gives you this you sense of 'well, if

you want more you can turn another page.

So I think the early area definitely primes
you and it's like 'every little thing will

be worth fiddling, or touching if you want
to."

Mark: "There's a nice example here of using
the wall to reveal the upcoming dinosaurs.

How do you create things like that?"

Evan: "The main thing is we look at is, like
you said, just trying to create interesting

camera movements with the level geometry.

So always ensuring that occluders, like you
saw with the wall there, is sliding off and

that's the thing that starts revealing all
these interesting things rather than all there

on display at one moment.

The way we refine these things varies.

So for the T-rex, for example, there were
some instances where you'd be able to see

the T-rex a little too early, or a little
too soon.

So trying to actually sculpt the doorway with
the foliage so that when Ellie sees it and

reacts is when you see it and react."

Mark: "There's a lot of stuff in this level
that player can interact with but they can

also skip a whole bunch of it - how do you
feel about players not seeing some of the

content that you made?"

Evan: "The main thing we were focusing on
was this sense of confidence that it's okay

if there isn't this perfect, singular experience
of this level.

A big part of it is this sense of freedom
and this sense that you're the one driving

this forward.

And sometimes the result of that is just letting
you be able to miss things.

Letting you not see every nook and cranny.

Because the main thing was if you force everyone
to do everything, for some people it would drag.

You want to be able to let the player go through
as quickly or slowly as possible.

And for the people who just want to run through,
asking them to sit there and go through all

these little cute things would have absolutely
infuriated them."

Mark: "As we move into this second part of
the museum which is the space area, I was

curious how much are you thinking ahead when
you're doing the blockmesh, versus just putting

down [nondescript], random blobs?"

Evan: "For this level it was a good, healthy
mix of just putting blobs in it.

The early blockmesh really was just trying
to figure out the density of the space.

So we'd riff with Neil more.

I just had this default, literal blob thing
where I'd put this like 'ok cool, here's a

point of interest, here's a point of interest,
here's a point of interest.

And from there we just kept iterating.

This space area had, I think, three or four
full revisions.

After we got the pacing down, I think it was
really the art team who kept coming up with

really interesting ideas and then we came
up with this final version."

Mark: "I just noticed as I got off the Lunar
Rover there, the camera swung around really

nicely to frame the capsule.

Is that a case of leading the player to the
next part of the level?"

Evan: "Absolutely.

It's just finding little opportunities like
that, any time you place something down in

the level, where it's like 'alright, how do
I get them to think about the next thing?

How do I get them to… frame or otherwise
reference it'.

Sometimes it's in the writing, sometimes it's
in the camera controls, but overall by this

point, thankfully, a lot of players are just
bought in to how this space works.

They're just like 'oh, hey, cool'."

Mark: "So the space capsule is obviously this
huge, important part of the museum: how did

that come about?"

Evan: "Actually the sequence, in its very
very early stages, was going to end here.

It was just going to have Firefly graffiti,
and it was going to be the big punch and that's it.

But as we kept digging in to the minds of
the characters in the pitches with Neil and

the other writers, we just kept wanting to
deliver more.

We kept wanting to fully articulate this moment
in Ellie's life where she's actually feeling

herself, feeling unburdened and unhindered.

From there I actually then started revising
the level as is to lead up to this moment.

To give it more space to breathe.

Before the dinosaur was the high point.

But now with this it's just a part of the
build towards this sequence."

Mark: "And then with this as the high point,
we drop down to a very different tone for

the next section which is dark and spooky,
and has the confrontation in the relationship.

It's almost like the level is built on a three
act arc."

Evan: "Exactly, exactly.

It's like 'okay, cool, now that we know we
want to deliver this moment, how do we pace

it out?

How do we build up the structure properly?

And now that we have this extreme high note,
what do we do to counteract it.

How do we develop it… what's the third act
after this?'"

Mark: "Before we get to that though, we have
to jump off of this cafe and down in the water.

Is that a loading gate where you're unloading
previous parts of the level to free up memory?

How does that work?"

Evan: "We definitely have loading gates.

It's just that there was never a point where
we looked at the budget and said 'we ran out

of memory here so we need to put this in now'.

Instead it's more this natural assumption
that we're going to want to give them a break,

we're going to want to give us some load time,
some load pacing.

And so let's find out where that will fit
narratively.

So after the capsule, we can take that down
beat.

So let's make it a traversal beat.

That lets us unload and these other things,
so the next thing that we do narratively can

have the full bandwidth to do what it wants."

Mark: "So Ellie and Joel have now split up
and the level takes on a very different tone.

Could you talk to me about this part of the
level?"

Evan: "I think we just wanted emotional variety,
was the initial impetus.

And then we also wanted to… as we kept exploring
it deeper, we wanted it to lead into the conflicts

in the relationship that have been peppered
throughout the game so far.

They had this amazing, wonderful experience.

Everything up until this point was the perfect
version of the relationship.

And then okay, there's a dark side to this
museum.

There's a dark side to Ellie and Joel's relationship.

There's an undercurrent there.

There's something that's still gnawing at
them.

And right now it's vague.

There's just this ominous graffiti.

There's somebody who's very regretful of the
decisions they've made in life.

The violence they've enacted.

The emotional weight of the actions I've been
doing up until this point kind of got to somebody."

Mark: "And the feeling of unease is emphasised
by the fact that it feels like there's going

to be a fight here, but there's actually no
enemies whatsoever."

Evan: "Just to even signal that it's a possibility
is enough to get people to tense up.

We're giving fake pick-ups, but there's no
combat in here.

The fact that everything in here is to combat
metrics, quiet: this whole sequence is there,

as I was talking about, to explore and set-up
that tension that this relationship between

Ellie and Joel has conflicts and defects that
will can't be ignored.

That will run you over.

This helps us tie the good to the bad."

Ellie: "I'm in here".

Mark: "This level obviously fits in between
two other levels - one before and one after.

How do you maintain a consistent flow across
the whole game?"

Evan: "So it's just a matter of knowing who's
in charge of each section.

Always keeping abreast of what their needs
and goals were.

To start out it was really just knowing that
this underground subway thing… this is going

to be really, really, really intense.

We're going to make this a big contrast point
for this part of the game.

Same with the sequence after where it's knowing
that we're going into the sequence of rescuing Jesse.

We're introducing dogs for the first time,
and all these other elements!

So that's when we started tooling with the
boar jump scare, to re-tune the player to

say 'we're going back now.

Fun times are over.

This is now going to get back to serious territory.
Brace yourself."

Mark: "So if it's even possible to quantify,
how long do you think this level took to make?"

Evan: "Pretty much two solid years."

Mark: "Really?"
Evan: "Really.

The big secret for all of Naughty Dog level
design is just iteration and work.

We have a lot of fundamentals, but there are
some sequences in this game that were re-done

like 25 times.

And the big secret for this level of quality
is just that dedication, that level of work,

that we'll be willing to do to scrap something
that doesn't work and re-do it.

To get this to this final version was two
solid years, and my responsibility shifted

pretty dramatically over that time.

So initially it's just the block-out, it's
just the layout.

Working with the narrative design.

Then as things get more and more concrete,
my role shifts more and more into being producer."

(Return to narration): And that's the thing,
while Evan was the level designer, working

under direction from the game's directors
and lead designers - there was a whole team

of people working with him on this area.

Evan's simple blockmesh was turned into fabulous
3D models by David Baldwin and Sarah Swenson,

which were then textured by Brian Beppu, and
lit by Scott Greenway - and that's all going

off ideas from concept artists.

There were also people involved in adding
effects, creating Ellie's animations, and

scripting Joel's movements.

And even more people were responsible for
producing the level's cinematic moments.

But what's bonkers is that each person may
only work on a handful of areas in this massive game.

For example, Evan made the museum, Ellie's
second flashback, the section at the winter

lodge, and a part with Abby and Owen.

And that's it - other designers were able to focus
of the game's many other areas.

Which all makes it a bit tricky for me to
glamorise a The Last of Us level on this channel.

This sort of intricately hand-crafted process
is just not financially feasible for many

companies, outside of a rarified few like
Rockstar and Naughty Dog.

And judging by insider reports, it might not
even have been particularly feasible for

Naughty Dog, itself.

Or Rockstar, for that matter.

So as amazing as the final product is, it
must come with the caveat that a lot of studios

simply don't have the resources to produce
something like this… in a 30 hour game…

filled with levels made to an equally high
level of quality.

With that being said, the museum is packed
with level design lessons that are applicable

to games of any scale.

Improv-ing as the characters to find moments
that fit their personality.

Having the confidence to let players miss
things.

Using art and geometry to guide the player's
eye and frame the best moments.

And having the feel of the level mimic the
emotional journey of the character's relationship.

Amazing stuff, all the way through - no wonder
it's one of the best levels in the whole game.

Thanks for watching!

I want to give a huge thank you to Evan for
talking to me.

As always, the full, hour-long conversation
is available to GMTK Patrons on the $5 tier.

Also, thanks go to the level's environment
artist Sarah who also chatted to me to help

fill in some extra details.

In case it needs to be said: this video is
not in any way sponsored by PlayStation or

Naughty Dog.

I know this sort of insider access can sometimes
be misconstrued as marketing for the game

- but that's not the case.

I'm just a fan.

Cheers to all GMTK Patrons for funding this
sort of content! You're amazing.