Can I Work at My Job as a Believer? - Ask Pastor Tim

"Hello, Pastor Tim.

I'm a born again Christian and working on

that close relationship with Jesus Christ.

Your online videos have been a blessing.

Here's my dilemma:

I work in the marketing department

of a hospital that is..."

(I find this kind of confusing),

"...in a hospital that is focused

on the Gospel and Christianity.

However, the base denomination

of this hospital system is Catholic.

Of course, we have people of

all denominations and belief systems

throughout our hospitals and clinics.

In the last five years
that I've worked here,

we have never opened a meeting

with a prayer to anyone
other than God and Jesus.

Our health services are directed

by the manual:

'Ethical and Religious Directives

for Catholic Healthcare Services,'

as set forth by the United States

Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Now, I don't put any faith

into what the Catholic church

teaches or instructs,

such as praying to Mary, saints,

confessions through priests, etc.

What is your opinion and recommendation

of me continuing to work
in this environment?

Thank you for your opinion.

Alissa."

You know, I find it to be a
fairly frequent question,

especially when you're in a church

where you're seeing some new converts.

When we're getting new people

saved in the church,

this can be a fairly regular thing.

And the truth is when
we were back at Fatty's,

I remember (meeting at the restaurant) -

I remember when Charles
Leiter came down here.

He told me that he was amazed

because he was asking people

about their testimonies,

and he was just amazed

at how many of the people had been saved

in the last year.

In fact, I don't know if anybody remembers

that may have been there

the very first Fellowship Conference

when it was held in Norman, Oklahoma.

Charles actually asked everybody there

to raise their hands if they'd been saved

in the previous twelve months,

and it was amazing how many hands went up.

When you have that many new believers,

you tend to run into
a lot of these questions

about: okay, God saved me;

now I'm having some problems

trying to figure out whether
my work situation is right;

whether this is where I should stay.

Now, some are black and white.

It's a no-brainer.

Give me some examples

of some that are no-brainers.

(from the room)

Working in an abortion clinic.

Tim: You work in an abortion clinic.

You're an abortion doctor.

You're performing abortions.

You get saved. No-brainer.

You don't kill children.

You're Hector Martinez.

You're working on the
border for the cartel.

You get saved.

Yeah, you stop shooting people, right?

What are some other no-brainers?

I mean, I know we've had

a young lady working
for a gentlemen's club -

kind of a no-brainer.

What are some maybe other examples?

(unintelligible)

Well, I'm not going to put
that one in the grey area.

Being a bartender.

Now you may think that's a no-brainer.

But I want to put it in the grey area

because it's not exactly like these.

How about anybody know Richard Bennett?

He was a Catholic priest.

He got saved.

He stopped being a Catholic priest.

Here's the thing about all those examples

when I say they're no-brainers.

The individual themselves

were being required to sin

to do what they did.

When you're a bartender,

that's different.

You're mixing drinks.

Now, if you actually have a conviction

that alcohol is absolutely
forbidden in Scripture,

you may say,

well, I believe he's sinning.

Now, I don't think that's
what Scripture teaches

and I'm not trying to advocate you all

run out and experiment.

But I don't think that that necessarily

in and of itself is causing the person

to sin just in the way of mixing drinks.

Now, it may bring up another question:

Am I causing other people to sin?

And in causing other people to sin,

is that bad? Am I doing bad?

But you've got kind of the no-brainer

where you are being required to sin.

Now, I think even there,

even if I'm being required to sin,

I need to look at it and ask the question:

is the very job itself by the nature of it

requires me to sin?

Obviously, that of a
Catholic priest - yes, it does.

Obviously if I'm involved in the cartel -

yes, it does.

Obviously, if I'm involved in abortion?

Absolutely.

But I may actually be doing a job

where the job itself does not

fundamentally require sin.

Like, let's say a used car dealership.

Let's say it's owned by
a guy that's crooked,

and if you work for him,

you're going to take advantage of people

and you're going to lie to people

and you're going to tell them -

James and I met with somebody today

and it's like they basically told him

a little old couple owned the van.

Yeah, right. Used salesman.

A little old lady that only drove
it to church on Sundays.

If I'm working for a used car dealership

and I'm being expected to lie

and cheat people,

and suddenly I get saved,

that job actually is actually a job

that could be done
honestly and faithfully.

So you kind of have to differentiate

when you're dealing with:

should I quit the job?

Ruby's brother was a classic example.

He worked for a major shipping company -

truck freight.

These bill of ladings would come in

with the shipments.

And you know what they'd do?

They would basically
look on there and say,

okay, we've got 46
stereos on these pallets.

And they'd go through and count.

And if they counted 48,

we got us two stereos.

Who can ever account for them?

The paperwork says 46.

And that kind of stuff would happen

on a regular basis.

Rick said they had lots of stuff.

In fact, often when they're shipping,

it seems like they overship.

And so these guys,

they skimmed off all the extra,

all the time.

Rick got saved.

Now he wasn't being
specifically asked to do it.

But see, these are the kinds
of things we have to ask.

Is the job requiring me to sin?

Is the nature of the job

that I can't do this job without sinning

because it's like an abortion doctor -

you can't do the job without sinning.

Obviously, that's a no-brainer.

But then you have to kind of look at:

okay, is this a job that causes

other people to sin?

Now what are some examples of jobs

that could cause other people to sin?

Perhaps the bartender.

Anybody got any others?

I mean we've had a young lady

in our own church that has wrestled

with being a pharmacist

because pharmacists are
supposed to dispense

abortive-type birth control

and she won't do it.

So there's something.

You know one that's often a big one

that people wrestle
with is being a soldier

or perhaps being a police officer.

Or, could you imagine
being on a SWAT team?

Something like that.

And these are areas where people

have to wrestle.

I mean, if you got saved

and you were the janitor in a casino,

could you keep going?

I mean, is there anything about that

that in and of itself -

could you do it?

Or how about if you're a biology teacher

and they are absolutely expecting you

to teach evolution

and suddenly you get saved?

Can you do it?

See, these are the kind of questions.

And another big one
that comes up oftentimes

is like David Gonzales.

He told his work:

Look, don't schedule me for Sundays.

And whether you're a Sabbatarian or not

there are Christians who say

don't schedule me on Sundays.

And some people are
pretty adamant about it.

Even when they interview.

And then you get tested.

They try to get you to work on Sunday.

Whether it's a conviction
or it's just that you

want to be in church

and you don't want to miss the meetings.

So we have to ask ourselves this:

Am I being required to sin all the time?

Then I should leave.

Am I not being required
to sin all the time

but perhaps by what I do,

I encourage other people to sin?

Can anybody think of a time

when it would be okay to stay in a job

that encourages other people to sin?

(from the room)

I'm not exactly sure, but
sometimes I struggle with this.

We're Microsoft

and some of the products we make

are benign like Office,

but also we make things like XBox,

and some kids get addicted to this thing.

And I know some really
bad things have happened

around the XBox and
being addicted to games,

so sometimes I feel kind of convicted

and I support different
servers that support XBox

and all these different
things of that nature.

So sometimes I struggle
with that a little bit.

Tim: It's understandable.

Even Craig and I worked for a firm

up in Michigan

where we were basically dealing

with spectator seating.

Now, spectator seating you could say,

yeah, could somebody go

to Madison Square Garden

and listen to a preacher preach?

Well, they could.

By and large, what are they doing?

They're watching basketball games,
they're watching hockey games,

they're watching boxing matches.

So is that bad?

Well, it's like, here I'm throwing my life

into designing these components

for massive spectator facilities,

and I wondered, is that the best thing

to be throwing my life into?

I was able to work.
I was able to give from it.

Is it possible that those things

could be used for good purposes?

Perhaps.

Are people by and large
wasting their lives away

watching balls get put through hoops

and pucks getting put in nets?

On Judgment Day is it going
to be worth anything?

But I think we should conscientiously

be exploring those things

when it comes to our work.

What happens is it's pretty often

that we get faced with situations

that test our convictions.

Did you have your hand up?

(from the room)

I was just thinking about Daniel

working for Nebuchadnezzar

and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

I don't know what exactly they were doing.

Tim: They were counselors.

They were basically brought
into the wise men that counseled.

But God specifically
told them to go there.

Basically in their good, you'll have good.

And go there, plant, live.

Bless them.

I think the thing we have to ask

is is there any crime? Is there any sin?

Is there any immorality?

I mean, I think, is there
any false teaching?

Am I expected to proclaim lies

if I'm a teacher of any sort?

What are the expectations?

I can remember one time,

we got the Madison Square Garden job.

And this whole massive seating structure,

the whole understructure -

they didn't prime that properly.

And they came in there

and they sat that whole thing down.

In most facilities it would
not have been an issue.

They set it down on the
New York Rangers ice rink

and all that moisture coming up,

and it rusted the whole thing.

And I remember sitting in a meeting

in the firm I was in, a great big table,

and all the engineers

and all the big wigs from
our company were in there

because this was a major catastrophe.

And I remember the vice-
president of that company,

he said: You (talking to all of us) -

you will lie to them if they inquire

or ask any questions about this.

And I was there saying, uh-huh,

I'm not going to lie.

And I was thinking about it today

as I was walking that I wasn't going to.

And I did not challenge the
vice-president right there.

I wrote him.

And I told him that his soul's in danger

and he really needs to repent.

But I wondered if I actually should have

(incomplete thought).

Because here's the thing,

what are children of light called to do?

I think this is an important point.

What does Ephesians 5 say

that children of light are supposed to do?

Expose the works of darkness.

And here's the thing,

we want to be careful that we don't run

from every situation out there.

I think in a lot of situations,

what we want to do is seek to be light.

You know, my brother-in-law

openly confronted the people.

He sought to be light.

(incomplete thought)

We had a friend out at
Community Baptist Church -

he was a soldier.

And this big auditorium full of people,

and I think he said
like a five-star general

was up on the platform

and he started by telling some crude joke.

This brother from down there,

he got up - he's a soldier -

he got up and he was
walking out down the aisle,

and Mr. Five-star General called him out

and said, son, where are you going?

And in front of everybody, he said,

Sir, I have the highest respect for you

and I just think that
this is inappropriate.

And you know what?

He stopped that story,

and he said, son, sit down.

And he didn't tell the story

and he went right into his thing.

And I was like, John, you did that?

But you know what? That's good.

That's being light.

And we need that.

The last thing we want to do

is every difficult work situation,

we extract the Christian.

We don't want to do that.

Now, you don't want to stay in a position

where you're being required to sin,

or where you're requiring
somebody else to sin.

But I think the thing is

before we just abscond

and run from situations,

we should seek to stay, if possible,

and never sin.

That's one thing when
you're thinking about this.

Whatever situation you
determine to remain in,

you just have to take this stance:

I am not going to sin.

And there's a place

that if you're being surrounded by sin,

where the job doesn't necessitate sin,

but you've got people around you

that are being dishonest
like at the car lot

or in the shipping company,

or even in the engineering
firm I worked for

where you've got people that are lying

or their conduct isn't (right).

Oh man, I remember one time

Brother Craig, he went
back to the tool room -

this was when he worked in Seguin -

he went to the tool room

and he had to get something,

and the man there that
operated the tool room

had a foul mouth,

and he just went off and said something,

and Craig called him out on it.

And Craig said the guy just blew up.

But again, I think that's what's critical.

We're supposed to expose them.

So okay, it comes back to:

You've got somebody working
in a Catholic hospital.

What do you think?

I suspect this:

I suspect that the average Christian,

if it was a Lutheran hospital

or a Methodist hospital

wouldn't think as much about it

as they do if it's a Catholic hospital.

But I'll tell you this,

the Catholics don't have the Gospel,

but most Lutherans and most Methodists

don't have it either.

(Incomplete thought)

And in fact, a lot of
Baptists don't have it.

And so, here's the thing,

you're working for a Catholic hospital.

And I would say this - she says,

"a hospital that's focused on
the Gospel and Christianity."

I just put a question mark by that

because I'm not certain

exactly what that means.

I'm not sure that Catholics are typically

focusing on the Gospel
or true Christianity,

but she's working for a hospital

in the marketing department.

And I'm thinking she's
probably not teaching.

She's probably not being
indoctrinated herself.

She's probably not being put in a position

where she's being expected to embrace

Catholic doctrine

or to propagate that doctrine.

I'm thinking if you work for a hospital...

James: Well, she's
a marketing person.

She could be involved
in publishing content.

She mentions specifically,

"they just pray to God or Jesus" -

I guess her point was not to Mary.

My question would be:

are you sharing stuff on your Facebook?

Or other places on the Internet

that promotes Mary and Catholic dogma?

Tim: Yes, if you're in a
marketing situation

and you're having to compile literature,

websites, any type of social media,

any type of advertisement whatsoever

where you are actually promoting

the Catholic church or its teachings,

I think you're dead wrong.

Because look, when it comes

to the actual teaching,

we have this reality in 2 John.

Do you know what it says
about greeting people?

(unintelligible)

Well, the thing is if you've got somebody

that's departed from the truth,

John says don't even greet them.

That's if somebody else
is the one doing it,

let alone if you're
the one propagating it.

No way should you ever
be put in a situation

where you're propagating error

or teaching error.

And if I'm that biology teacher

(incomplete thought).

See, I think there's always a place

for the Christian to
go to their higher-ups.

Go to their supervisors,

go to their foreman's,

go to the boss - whoever that is -

and say... I think there's
a place for being honest.

I'm a Christian.

This is my conviction.

I can't do that.

I really like working here.

I want to continue to work here,

but I can't do that.

And look, I can teach -

perhaps somebody could say this -

I can teach evolution,

as long as you let me explain

to the students

that there are other
thoughts and worldviews

than that one,

and if you allow me to
indicate to the children

that perhaps that's not the one

that I think is correct.

I think this one over here's correct.

If you won't let me do that,

then I probably can't teach science.

Maybe I could teach math.

But you let your convictions be known.

I think that's critical

for being salt and light.

Wherever you work,

they know who you are.

They know what you are.

They know something about your testimony.

They know something
about what you believe.

And you're there confronting the darkness.

Jesus said, "If you deny Me..."

that He would deny.

We don't want to deny Him.

I think for the Christian to
be able to work somewhere

and nobody ever knows they're Christians,

they're certainly not being light.

So yes, a lot of this,

as far as this Catholic hospital

would depend on what
she's being asked to do.

The reality is if her
primary responsibilities

all wrap around people's healthcare,

I mean, it's a hospital -

if their primary driving reality

of the majority of the people's jobs there

has to do with people's health -

getting people well,

getting people healed -

certainly, just because
it says "Catholic,"

if a doctor told me,

well, I went to work at Shriner's -

I don't know, there
might be better choices,

but we all have to weigh these things out.

And I think as a Christian,

one of the things we have to weigh out

is: look, I might be the only
Christian in that place.

So is the best thing for
you to do is leave?

We have to measure

what does it say about our testimony.

We have to weigh all these things out.

It's kind of like the money situation.

Is there an exact right answer?

You know what?

Whatsoever's not of faith is sin.

We have to measure these things.

We have to weigh these things out.

And I would say this,

there may be an environment

that a weaker Christian says:

I can't be here.

Where a stronger Christian could say:

Perhaps I can work here.

Perhaps there's an individual that says

at one point in time: I can work here;

and then at a different
point in time, he says,

I no longer can.

I don't think that's impossible

for two Christians to be confronted

by the same job,

and one feels like with a clear conscience

he can work there,

and the other feels like
with a clear conscience,

they can't work there.

I think that's what
Romans 14 is all about.

Some observe a day.
Some don't observe a day.

Some eat vegetables. Some eat meat.

It's the kind of thing where

we're trying to wrestle,

we're trying to have our conscience

constrained by the Word of God;

constrained by the truth that we know.

And we have to live up to that light,

but I would say any one of us,

if we're in a job,

if we're in any kind of position,

we need to be light.

And we need to reprove
the works of darkness.

That's what we're called to do.

You know, a holy life in itself

will have a tendency to reprove,

but I think the reproving is oftentimes

necessary to be done by our mouths.

And yeah, it can be uncomfortable

and it can be confrontational.

And at times, it can cost you your job.

But that's okay.

I mean, if you stand for what's right

in some place

and it ends up costing you the job,

then that's okay.

Those who want to be godly

in this present world,

they are going to face persecution.

Look, the reality is

take somebody like Jesus

and throw Him into
humanity, and what happens?

They killed Him.

And the more you're like Him

and you throw you into
that darkness out there,

the more you are like Him,

the more the world is going
to sit up and take notice

and often hate you.

Anything more to say about that one?

(from the room/unintelligible)

Like you mentioned early on, in Luke 3,

these people had these jobs.

The jobs weren't sinful
in and of themselves.

(unintelligible)

Tim: Yeah, what James
is talking about is this:

Do you remember when John the Baptist

came on the scene?

And it says specifically

that the soldiers came to John

and said "what must we do?"

He was saying: bring forth works

that are in line with your repentance.

And the soldiers said what do we do?

And it's very interesting that John

did not say: all you soldiers

need to stop being soldiers

because there's no way

for you to live righteously as a soldier.

That's not what he said.

Soldiers were big. Soldiers were strong.

Soldiers were fighters.

They were armed.

Very easy for them to extort people.

And he said don't do that.

Really?

Soldiers have to go to war.

They have to fight.

They often have to kill.

How come you didn't address any of that?

Well, you know what?

Actually, Scripture says that God

has given the sword to governments.

That's God-ordained.

Governments are God-ordained,

and them bearing the sword

is God-ordained.

Personally, I would never tell anybody -

any Christian -

that being on a SWAT team,

being in the military,

being a police officer is sin.

They need to sort that
out before the Lord,

but if a Christian decided before the Lord

that he believed that was
what God was calling him to,

I could not say based on
what Scripture teaches,

I can't say that that dogmatically is sin.

Now, if you take the position

like what's that old Gary Cooper movie?

Sergeant York.

Remember Sergeant York?

Anybody know about him?

He was the most decorated war hero -

U.S. war hero of World War 1.

He was the real deal.

He got saved shortly before

World War 1 broke out.

He was minded not to go.

He believed God did not want him to kill.

(Incomplete thought).

He started out as a conscientious objector

and he ended up going.

And if you watch the movie

and if the movie's true to real life,

which I never actually read

a Sergeant York biography,

so I don't know how true the movie is

to real life,

but he says in the movie

that he killed to save;

that taking out the Germans
that he took out

actually ended up saving many, many

of the allied soldiers.

And he was the most decorated.

He was a hero.

He went up through all
these machine gun nests.

You know, if you're a
conscientious objector

and you choose not to do it,

and you do so before the Lord? Amen.

If you feel like you can go into battle,

personally if I were to ask the question:

does Scripture specifically forbid -

if God gives the sword to the government,

and you're a police officer

and you're bearing that sword,

does that seem to be
consistent with Scripture?

It does, but if you asked me,

would Jesus take a gun and shoot somebody?

I don't believe He would.

(Incomplete thought)

What does that mean?

Does that mean that there are some things

that are okay to do

even if Jesus Himself wouldn't do them?

I mean, these are the kind of things
we have to wrestle with.

Is it appropriate to put people to death?

I mean, you have to ask that of Moses.

Moses, what do you say?

You went into the land of Canaan.

Or, not Moses, but Joshua rather.

Was it okay to kill?

David, was it okay to kill?

I mean, even commanded of God?

Saul, did you lose your kingdom

because you didn't kill

when you were supposed to kill?

I mean, is there a time in Scripture

when killing was right?

We'd have to say yes.

Capital offense.

If somebody committed murder,

were they to be put to death?

Yes.

But would Jesus have killed?

When they brought the woman

taken in adultery,

Moses did require her to be put to death.

And He didn't do it.

These are the things we
have to wrestle with

in some cases

if you're thinking about
those kinds of routes.

Anything else on this subject?

Well, that's probably enough for tonight.

Okay, let's pray.

Oh Lord, we pray to be a people

that are guided by truth.

We want to be the children of light.

You tell us to rebuke
the works of darkness.

Help us to be children of light.

Help us to really shine.

We read of John the Baptist -

a burning and shining light.

Lord, we want that
to be true of ourselves.

Help us, Lord.

Give us the boldness.

We want to be bold to proclaim Christ

in even the hardest situations.

We want to be faithful

to go out into the darkness
of this world and shine.

I pray, Lord, light us.

Light us up.

We pray in Christ's name, Amen.