"Hello, Pastor Tim.
I'm a born again Christian and working on
that close relationship with Jesus Christ.
Your online videos have been a blessing.
Here's my dilemma:
I work in the marketing department
of a hospital that is..."
(I find this kind of confusing),
"...in a hospital that is focused
on the Gospel and Christianity.
However, the base denomination
of this hospital system is Catholic.
Of course, we have people of
all denominations and belief systems
throughout our hospitals and clinics.
In the last five years that I've worked here,
we have never opened a meeting
with a prayer to anyone other than God and Jesus.
Our health services are directed
by the manual:
'Ethical and Religious Directives
for Catholic Healthcare Services,'
as set forth by the United States
Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Now, I don't put any faith
into what the Catholic church
teaches or instructs,
such as praying to Mary, saints,
confessions through priests, etc.
What is your opinion and recommendation
of me continuing to work in this environment?
Thank you for your opinion.
Alissa."
You know, I find it to be a fairly frequent question,
especially when you're in a church
where you're seeing some new converts.
When we're getting new people
saved in the church,
this can be a fairly regular thing.
And the truth is when we were back at Fatty's,
I remember (meeting at the restaurant) -
I remember when Charles Leiter came down here.
He told me that he was amazed
because he was asking people
about their testimonies,
and he was just amazed
at how many of the people had been saved
in the last year.
In fact, I don't know if anybody remembers
that may have been there
the very first Fellowship Conference
when it was held in Norman, Oklahoma.
Charles actually asked everybody there
to raise their hands if they'd been saved
in the previous twelve months,
and it was amazing how many hands went up.
When you have that many new believers,
you tend to run into a lot of these questions
about: okay, God saved me;
now I'm having some problems
trying to figure out whether my work situation is right;
whether this is where I should stay.
Now, some are black and white.
It's a no-brainer.
Give me some examples
of some that are no-brainers.
(from the room)
Working in an abortion clinic.
Tim: You work in an abortion clinic.
You're an abortion doctor.
You're performing abortions.
You get saved. No-brainer.
You don't kill children.
You're Hector Martinez.
You're working on the border for the cartel.
You get saved.
Yeah, you stop shooting people, right?
What are some other no-brainers?
I mean, I know we've had
a young lady working for a gentlemen's club -
kind of a no-brainer.
What are some maybe other examples?
(unintelligible)
Well, I'm not going to put that one in the grey area.
Being a bartender.
Now you may think that's a no-brainer.
But I want to put it in the grey area
because it's not exactly like these.
How about anybody know Richard Bennett?
He was a Catholic priest.
He got saved.
He stopped being a Catholic priest.
Here's the thing about all those examples
when I say they're no-brainers.
The individual themselves
were being required to sin
to do what they did.
When you're a bartender,
that's different.
You're mixing drinks.
Now, if you actually have a conviction
that alcohol is absolutely forbidden in Scripture,
you may say,
well, I believe he's sinning.
Now, I don't think that's what Scripture teaches
and I'm not trying to advocate you all
run out and experiment.
But I don't think that that necessarily
in and of itself is causing the person
to sin just in the way of mixing drinks.
Now, it may bring up another question:
Am I causing other people to sin?
And in causing other people to sin,
is that bad? Am I doing bad?
But you've got kind of the no-brainer
where you are being required to sin.
Now, I think even there,
even if I'm being required to sin,
I need to look at it and ask the question:
is the very job itself by the nature of it
requires me to sin?
Obviously, that of a Catholic priest - yes, it does.
Obviously if I'm involved in the cartel -
yes, it does.
Obviously, if I'm involved in abortion?
Absolutely.
But I may actually be doing a job
where the job itself does not
fundamentally require sin.
Like, let's say a used car dealership.
Let's say it's owned by a guy that's crooked,
and if you work for him,
you're going to take advantage of people
and you're going to lie to people
and you're going to tell them -
James and I met with somebody today
and it's like they basically told him
a little old couple owned the van.
Yeah, right. Used salesman.
A little old lady that only drove it to church on Sundays.
If I'm working for a used car dealership
and I'm being expected to lie
and cheat people,
and suddenly I get saved,
that job actually is actually a job
that could be done honestly and faithfully.
So you kind of have to differentiate
when you're dealing with:
should I quit the job?
Ruby's brother was a classic example.
He worked for a major shipping company -
truck freight.
These bill of ladings would come in
with the shipments.
And you know what they'd do?
They would basically look on there and say,
okay, we've got 46 stereos on these pallets.
And they'd go through and count.
And if they counted 48,
we got us two stereos.
Who can ever account for them?
The paperwork says 46.
And that kind of stuff would happen
on a regular basis.
Rick said they had lots of stuff.
In fact, often when they're shipping,
it seems like they overship.
And so these guys,
they skimmed off all the extra,
all the time.
Rick got saved.
Now he wasn't being specifically asked to do it.
But see, these are the kinds of things we have to ask.
Is the job requiring me to sin?
Is the nature of the job
that I can't do this job without sinning
because it's like an abortion doctor -
you can't do the job without sinning.
Obviously, that's a no-brainer.
But then you have to kind of look at:
okay, is this a job that causes
other people to sin?
Now what are some examples of jobs
that could cause other people to sin?
Perhaps the bartender.
Anybody got any others?
I mean we've had a young lady
in our own church that has wrestled
with being a pharmacist
because pharmacists are supposed to dispense
abortive-type birth control
and she won't do it.
So there's something.
You know one that's often a big one
that people wrestle with is being a soldier
or perhaps being a police officer.
Or, could you imagine being on a SWAT team?
Something like that.
And these are areas where people
have to wrestle.
I mean, if you got saved
and you were the janitor in a casino,
could you keep going?
I mean, is there anything about that
that in and of itself -
could you do it?
Or how about if you're a biology teacher
and they are absolutely expecting you
to teach evolution
and suddenly you get saved?
Can you do it?
See, these are the kind of questions.
And another big one that comes up oftentimes
is like David Gonzales.
He told his work:
Look, don't schedule me for Sundays.
And whether you're a Sabbatarian or not
there are Christians who say
don't schedule me on Sundays.
And some people are pretty adamant about it.
Even when they interview.
And then you get tested.
They try to get you to work on Sunday.
Whether it's a conviction or it's just that you
want to be in church
and you don't want to miss the meetings.
So we have to ask ourselves this:
Am I being required to sin all the time?
Then I should leave.
Am I not being required to sin all the time
but perhaps by what I do,
I encourage other people to sin?
Can anybody think of a time
when it would be okay to stay in a job
that encourages other people to sin?
(from the room)
I'm not exactly sure, but sometimes I struggle with this.
We're Microsoft
and some of the products we make
are benign like Office,
but also we make things like XBox,
and some kids get addicted to this thing.
And I know some really bad things have happened
around the XBox and being addicted to games,
so sometimes I feel kind of convicted
and I support different servers that support XBox
and all these different things of that nature.
So sometimes I struggle with that a little bit.
Tim: It's understandable.
Even Craig and I worked for a firm
up in Michigan
where we were basically dealing
with spectator seating.
Now, spectator seating you could say,
yeah, could somebody go
to Madison Square Garden
and listen to a preacher preach?
Well, they could.
By and large, what are they doing?
They're watching basketball games, they're watching hockey games,
they're watching boxing matches.
So is that bad?
Well, it's like, here I'm throwing my life
into designing these components
for massive spectator facilities,
and I wondered, is that the best thing
to be throwing my life into?
I was able to work. I was able to give from it.
Is it possible that those things
could be used for good purposes?
Perhaps.
Are people by and large wasting their lives away
watching balls get put through hoops
and pucks getting put in nets?
On Judgment Day is it going to be worth anything?
But I think we should conscientiously
be exploring those things
when it comes to our work.
What happens is it's pretty often
that we get faced with situations
that test our convictions.
Did you have your hand up?
(from the room)
I was just thinking about Daniel
working for Nebuchadnezzar
and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
I don't know what exactly they were doing.
Tim: They were counselors.
They were basically brought into the wise men that counseled.
But God specifically told them to go there.
Basically in their good, you'll have good.
And go there, plant, live.
Bless them.
I think the thing we have to ask
is is there any crime? Is there any sin?
Is there any immorality?
I mean, I think, is there any false teaching?
Am I expected to proclaim lies
if I'm a teacher of any sort?
What are the expectations?
I can remember one time,
we got the Madison Square Garden job.
And this whole massive seating structure,
the whole understructure -
they didn't prime that properly.
And they came in there
and they sat that whole thing down.
In most facilities it would not have been an issue.
They set it down on the New York Rangers ice rink
and all that moisture coming up,
and it rusted the whole thing.
And I remember sitting in a meeting
in the firm I was in, a great big table,
and all the engineers
and all the big wigs from our company were in there
because this was a major catastrophe.
And I remember the vice- president of that company,
he said: You (talking to all of us) -
you will lie to them if they inquire
or ask any questions about this.
And I was there saying, uh-huh,
I'm not going to lie.
And I was thinking about it today
as I was walking that I wasn't going to.
And I did not challenge the vice-president right there.
I wrote him.
And I told him that his soul's in danger
and he really needs to repent.
But I wondered if I actually should have
(incomplete thought).
Because here's the thing,
what are children of light called to do?
I think this is an important point.
What does Ephesians 5 say
that children of light are supposed to do?
Expose the works of darkness.
And here's the thing,
we want to be careful that we don't run
from every situation out there.
I think in a lot of situations,
what we want to do is seek to be light.
You know, my brother-in-law
openly confronted the people.
He sought to be light.
(incomplete thought)
We had a friend out at Community Baptist Church -
he was a soldier.
And this big auditorium full of people,
and I think he said like a five-star general
was up on the platform
and he started by telling some crude joke.
This brother from down there,
he got up - he's a soldier -
he got up and he was walking out down the aisle,
and Mr. Five-star General called him out
and said, son, where are you going?
And in front of everybody, he said,
Sir, I have the highest respect for you
and I just think that this is inappropriate.
And you know what?
He stopped that story,
and he said, son, sit down.
And he didn't tell the story
and he went right into his thing.
And I was like, John, you did that?
But you know what? That's good.
That's being light.
And we need that.
The last thing we want to do
is every difficult work situation,
we extract the Christian.
We don't want to do that.
Now, you don't want to stay in a position
where you're being required to sin,
or where you're requiring somebody else to sin.
But I think the thing is
before we just abscond
and run from situations,
we should seek to stay, if possible,
and never sin.
That's one thing when you're thinking about this.
Whatever situation you determine to remain in,
you just have to take this stance:
I am not going to sin.
And there's a place
that if you're being surrounded by sin,
where the job doesn't necessitate sin,
but you've got people around you
that are being dishonest like at the car lot
or in the shipping company,
or even in the engineering firm I worked for
where you've got people that are lying
or their conduct isn't (right).
Oh man, I remember one time
Brother Craig, he went back to the tool room -
this was when he worked in Seguin -
he went to the tool room
and he had to get something,
and the man there that operated the tool room
had a foul mouth,
and he just went off and said something,
and Craig called him out on it.
And Craig said the guy just blew up.
But again, I think that's what's critical.
We're supposed to expose them.
So okay, it comes back to:
You've got somebody working in a Catholic hospital.
What do you think?
I suspect this:
I suspect that the average Christian,
if it was a Lutheran hospital
or a Methodist hospital
wouldn't think as much about it
as they do if it's a Catholic hospital.
But I'll tell you this,
the Catholics don't have the Gospel,
but most Lutherans and most Methodists
don't have it either.
(Incomplete thought)
And in fact, a lot of Baptists don't have it.
And so, here's the thing,
you're working for a Catholic hospital.
And I would say this - she says,
"a hospital that's focused on the Gospel and Christianity."
I just put a question mark by that
because I'm not certain
exactly what that means.
I'm not sure that Catholics are typically
focusing on the Gospel or true Christianity,
but she's working for a hospital
in the marketing department.
And I'm thinking she's probably not teaching.
She's probably not being indoctrinated herself.
She's probably not being put in a position
where she's being expected to embrace
Catholic doctrine
or to propagate that doctrine.
I'm thinking if you work for a hospital...
James: Well, she's a marketing person.
She could be involved in publishing content.
She mentions specifically,
"they just pray to God or Jesus" -
I guess her point was not to Mary.
My question would be:
are you sharing stuff on your Facebook?
Or other places on the Internet
that promotes Mary and Catholic dogma?
Tim: Yes, if you're in a marketing situation
and you're having to compile literature,
websites, any type of social media,
any type of advertisement whatsoever
where you are actually promoting
the Catholic church or its teachings,
I think you're dead wrong.
Because look, when it comes
to the actual teaching,
we have this reality in 2 John.
Do you know what it says about greeting people?
(unintelligible)
Well, the thing is if you've got somebody
that's departed from the truth,
John says don't even greet them.
That's if somebody else is the one doing it,
let alone if you're the one propagating it.
No way should you ever be put in a situation
where you're propagating error
or teaching error.
And if I'm that biology teacher
(incomplete thought).
See, I think there's always a place
for the Christian to go to their higher-ups.
Go to their supervisors,
go to their foreman's,
go to the boss - whoever that is -
and say... I think there's a place for being honest.
I'm a Christian.
This is my conviction.
I can't do that.
I really like working here.
I want to continue to work here,
but I can't do that.
And look, I can teach -
perhaps somebody could say this -
I can teach evolution,
as long as you let me explain
to the students
that there are other thoughts and worldviews
than that one,
and if you allow me to indicate to the children
that perhaps that's not the one
that I think is correct.
I think this one over here's correct.
If you won't let me do that,
then I probably can't teach science.
Maybe I could teach math.
But you let your convictions be known.
I think that's critical
for being salt and light.
Wherever you work,
they know who you are.
They know what you are.
They know something about your testimony.
They know something about what you believe.
And you're there confronting the darkness.
Jesus said, "If you deny Me..."
that He would deny.
We don't want to deny Him.
I think for the Christian to be able to work somewhere
and nobody ever knows they're Christians,
they're certainly not being light.
So yes, a lot of this,
as far as this Catholic hospital
would depend on what she's being asked to do.
The reality is if her primary responsibilities
all wrap around people's healthcare,
I mean, it's a hospital -
if their primary driving reality
of the majority of the people's jobs there
has to do with people's health -
getting people well,
getting people healed -
certainly, just because it says "Catholic,"
if a doctor told me,
well, I went to work at Shriner's -
I don't know, there might be better choices,
but we all have to weigh these things out.
And I think as a Christian,
one of the things we have to weigh out
is: look, I might be the only Christian in that place.
So is the best thing for you to do is leave?
We have to measure
what does it say about our testimony.
We have to weigh all these things out.
It's kind of like the money situation.
Is there an exact right answer?
You know what?
Whatsoever's not of faith is sin.
We have to measure these things.
We have to weigh these things out.
And I would say this,
there may be an environment
that a weaker Christian says:
I can't be here.
Where a stronger Christian could say:
Perhaps I can work here.
Perhaps there's an individual that says
at one point in time: I can work here;
and then at a different point in time, he says,
I no longer can.
I don't think that's impossible
for two Christians to be confronted
by the same job,
and one feels like with a clear conscience
he can work there,
and the other feels like with a clear conscience,
they can't work there.
I think that's what Romans 14 is all about.
Some observe a day. Some don't observe a day.
Some eat vegetables. Some eat meat.
It's the kind of thing where
we're trying to wrestle,
we're trying to have our conscience
constrained by the Word of God;
constrained by the truth that we know.
And we have to live up to that light,
but I would say any one of us,
if we're in a job,
if we're in any kind of position,
we need to be light.
And we need to reprove the works of darkness.
That's what we're called to do.
You know, a holy life in itself
will have a tendency to reprove,
but I think the reproving is oftentimes
necessary to be done by our mouths.
And yeah, it can be uncomfortable
and it can be confrontational.
And at times, it can cost you your job.
But that's okay.
I mean, if you stand for what's right
in some place
and it ends up costing you the job,
then that's okay.
Those who want to be godly
in this present world,
they are going to face persecution.
Look, the reality is
take somebody like Jesus
and throw Him into humanity, and what happens?
They killed Him.
And the more you're like Him
and you throw you into that darkness out there,
the more you are like Him,
the more the world is going to sit up and take notice
and often hate you.
Anything more to say about that one?
(from the room/unintelligible)
Like you mentioned early on, in Luke 3,
these people had these jobs.
The jobs weren't sinful in and of themselves.
(unintelligible)
Tim: Yeah, what James is talking about is this:
Do you remember when John the Baptist
came on the scene?
And it says specifically
that the soldiers came to John
and said "what must we do?"
He was saying: bring forth works
that are in line with your repentance.
And the soldiers said what do we do?
And it's very interesting that John
did not say: all you soldiers
need to stop being soldiers
because there's no way
for you to live righteously as a soldier.
That's not what he said.
Soldiers were big. Soldiers were strong.
Soldiers were fighters.
They were armed.
Very easy for them to extort people.
And he said don't do that.
Really?
Soldiers have to go to war.
They have to fight.
They often have to kill.
How come you didn't address any of that?
Well, you know what?
Actually, Scripture says that God
has given the sword to governments.
That's God-ordained.
Governments are God-ordained,
and them bearing the sword
is God-ordained.
Personally, I would never tell anybody -
any Christian -
that being on a SWAT team,
being in the military,
being a police officer is sin.
They need to sort that out before the Lord,
but if a Christian decided before the Lord
that he believed that was what God was calling him to,
I could not say based on what Scripture teaches,
I can't say that that dogmatically is sin.
Now, if you take the position
like what's that old Gary Cooper movie?
Sergeant York.
Remember Sergeant York?
Anybody know about him?
He was the most decorated war hero -
U.S. war hero of World War 1.
He was the real deal.
He got saved shortly before
World War 1 broke out.
He was minded not to go.
He believed God did not want him to kill.
(Incomplete thought).
He started out as a conscientious objector
and he ended up going.
And if you watch the movie
and if the movie's true to real life,
which I never actually read
a Sergeant York biography,
so I don't know how true the movie is
to real life,
but he says in the movie
that he killed to save;
that taking out the Germans that he took out
actually ended up saving many, many
of the allied soldiers.
And he was the most decorated.
He was a hero.
He went up through all these machine gun nests.
You know, if you're a conscientious objector
and you choose not to do it,
and you do so before the Lord? Amen.
If you feel like you can go into battle,
personally if I were to ask the question:
does Scripture specifically forbid -
if God gives the sword to the government,
and you're a police officer
and you're bearing that sword,
does that seem to be consistent with Scripture?
It does, but if you asked me,
would Jesus take a gun and shoot somebody?
I don't believe He would.
(Incomplete thought)
What does that mean?
Does that mean that there are some things
that are okay to do
even if Jesus Himself wouldn't do them?
I mean, these are the kind of things we have to wrestle with.
Is it appropriate to put people to death?
I mean, you have to ask that of Moses.
Moses, what do you say?
You went into the land of Canaan.
Or, not Moses, but Joshua rather.
Was it okay to kill?
David, was it okay to kill?
I mean, even commanded of God?
Saul, did you lose your kingdom
because you didn't kill
when you were supposed to kill?
I mean, is there a time in Scripture
when killing was right?
We'd have to say yes.
Capital offense.
If somebody committed murder,
were they to be put to death?
Yes.
But would Jesus have killed?
When they brought the woman
taken in adultery,
Moses did require her to be put to death.
And He didn't do it.
These are the things we have to wrestle with
in some cases
if you're thinking about those kinds of routes.
Anything else on this subject?
Well, that's probably enough for tonight.
Okay, let's pray.
Oh Lord, we pray to be a people
that are guided by truth.
We want to be the children of light.
You tell us to rebuke the works of darkness.
Help us to be children of light.
Help us to really shine.
We read of John the Baptist -
a burning and shining light.
Lord, we want that to be true of ourselves.
Help us, Lord.
Give us the boldness.
We want to be bold to proclaim Christ
in even the hardest situations.
We want to be faithful
to go out into the darkness of this world and shine.
I pray, Lord, light us.
Light us up.
We pray in Christ's name, Amen.