35C3 - Feminist Perspectives

35C3 preroll music

Herald: I will now hand over the
microphone to our moderator, Geraldine De

Bastion, who apart from the French name
does not speak French.

Thank you very much.

laughter

Geraldine De Bastion: Thank you so much
for having me here and hopefully enough

English to moderate the session. Hi
everybody. My name is Geraldine and I'm

very proud to be moderating this session.
Maybe a few words to kick off with;

usually sessions at CCC come together
because one person or team of people hand

in a topic that they feel they would like
to talk about here on one of these stages.

This session came together because several
people handed in sessions where they

wanted to address how they're trying to
build communities or spaces that are

specifically feminist, diverse, and
inclusive. And we thought it would be a

great idea to give not just one person who
handed in a session, or two people, but

all the people who handed in sessions on
this topic the stage. So this is how the

session came together: by us grouping
together different submissions on the

topic. And so I'm very happy that we have
five very interesting and excellent humans

here to speak on the topic matter and will
be presenting their different approaches

and their different strategies to building
feminist spaces and communities. And I'd

like to welcome them here on stage. So
first off we have Hong Phuc who runs FOSS

Asia, which is a community in
Asia/Southeast Asia for developing

software and hardware specifically open
source. Welcome Hong!

applause

GdB: We have Azam and Sarah from Le RESET,
which is a feminist

queer hackerspace.

applause

GdB: Welcome! We have Em O'Sullivan former
hackerspace and maker fair organizer, now

researching how to improve women and non
binary people's engagement in maker a

spaces. Welcome Em!

applause

GdB: And last but not least we have Lena
Mohr, who is a UX designer from Stuttgart,

started an initiative called Ready to
Code, teaching young girls to code.

Welcome Lena.

applause

GdB: And as I said, my name is Geraldine
de Bastion. I run a community called the

Global Innovation Gathering, which is a
network of different maker spaces, hacker

spaces, different kind of innovation,
makers and innovators across the world. So

a quick housekeeping note for the session.
The format is that we're going to give

each of the teams here on stage the
opportunity to present their work to you

in about seven to 10 minutes, and then
we'll get to gather here to discuss the

difference and the likenesses in
approaches and in perspectives,

experiences and ideas. And then we would
like to invite you all to join this

discussion and open the floor. So to kick
things off I would invite you first to

share a little bit the story of FOSS Asia
and your work at the last 10 years, Hong.

Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. I did not
expect that I would go first, but that's

okay.
shuffling

There we go.

Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so hello everyone!
My name is Hong Phuc Dang, or HP Dang if

you want to look for me on the web. So
today I will talk about how I get involved

in open source community in the first
place, and also some highlights of my work

at FOSS Asia during the past 10 years.
Before that a little bit about my

background. I was born and grew up in a
small town in South Vietnam. It is called

Can Tho, I don't know if any of you have
been there before, but it's about 200

kilometers south of Hoh Chi Minh City.
This is my first 20 years of my life, so

I've been always there, feel like a
confusing little girl because I keep

wondering what I really want to achieve in
my life. My family, my parents were not

so... were poor at that time. In 1987,
most of the families there were poor due

to the war. We just finished the war and
then the reform of Vietnam. My parents

been working very hard so that me and my
sister could have a better future. And the

only motivation that I have in my life
until I was 20: to get a very good job

somewhere after graduation, so that I can
earn some money, take care of my parents,

and be able to afford something that I
could never have when I was a kid. So this

is what I was thinking when I got to 20
years old. I went to school, I studied

super super hard but I never had really
interested in school and I also don't

understand so much what I learn and get
out of school. I just know that if I study

hard I would have a good future. In 2007 I
met Mario Behling who later on became my

mentor and also a partner later on. Not on
Tinder, but at a free event, a free

technology event in Hanoi. In 2007 it was
the first time I learned about free

software. In the same year, I switched
from Windows XP to Ubuntu and started to

use open source. And then so I started to
involve with different user groups in the

region, and also contribute small bits,
like localization into some software

project. At the same time I also learned
how to submit a bug report, make an issue

to different projects. And by involving in
the open source community I got to meet so

many interesting people that inspire me.
So I always have very cool conversation

with people who've been involved in one
project for over 15, 20 years. That really

inspired me, how people can be so
persistent and continuously work on

something for so long. And when they talk
about their job, is so positive and

energetic. Even though it keeps repeating,
but they're very patient and when I joined

the community it's so good that people
always like very patient and took their

time to explain to you when you don't
understand something. So two years later

in 2009, Mario and I decided to found the
FOSS Asia organization. So FOSS Asia, the

goal of FOSS Asia is to bring together an
inspired community across Asia, a lot of

different communities to view a better
future with open technologies. Since then

we have developed so many different
projects with the FOSS Asia communities.

These are some of the software and also
hardware projects that we've been working

on. SUSI.AI is an alternative to Alexa or
Google Home, and Pocket Science Lab is our

newly released open hardware project. You
can find all the projects on Github of

FOSS Asia actually. Eventyay is an event
solution that's similar to what you have

here, the[unclear][???], just scheduling
and also ticket selling open source did

entirely by the FOSS Asia community. We
also organize a lot of events, conferences

and meet-ups throughout our regions. One
of our biggest events is the FOSS Asia

Summit, happens every year in March in
Singapore. Throughout the year we also

have smaller workshops and events in
China, in India, Vietnam, Indonesia,

Malaysia and many other places. Some of
the highlights of my last 10 years. In

2010 it was my first time into Europe. It
was so difficult to get a visa to come

here. I know, for many of you, but it was
a big thing for me to enter Europe for the

first time. I got invited to the Libre
Graphics meeting. This is the photo taken

when I was giving a talk. You can see it,
I was super nervous at that time. And the

next picture, after the talk I went to
dinner with a group of friends, the people

from the Libre Graphics communities. I was
the only girl but I did not realize that

until somebody comment on my Facebook, why
you was the only girl in the picture. But

it was really cool and very welcoming in
the community. 2012 we built a hotel in

our hometown Can Tho, and we labelled it
the Open Source hotel. You can look up,

Hotel Xoai is the name of the place. So
basically it's built by the Open Source

community member. So we set up the
wireless network with OpenWRT. I did

the entire wiring for the telephone
myself. I did it for three weeks but I was

very proud of it and we have the
declaration inside the hotel is donated to

us by the Libre Graphics community, so by
some artists in that community. And in

this space we hosted a lot of workshops
and we hosted many open source

contributors in our place. So we have dDebian
developers, we have GIMP contributers, we

have people from all over the world to
come and stay with us in this space here

in Vietnam. In the same year I also hosted
the group of artists and designers that I

met in Brussels in 2010 in Hoh Chi Minh
City. So we did an open source design week

in Saigon, and surprisingly more than 40%
of the participants are female. So what we

did in this design week, we showed people
how to make artwork with free tools, with

free software, and at the end we also made
an exhibition, what kind of work that you

can do with free software. And 2014 it was
my first time attending the CCC, and this

is the first person that I met in the
speaker room, who spend several minutes of

his valuable time to explain to me what is
the difference between free software and

open source.

laughter

Hong Phuc Dang: But I was very happy I was
also a speaker at that time, so we got a

photo together. 2016 we launch Code Heat
Program, which is an online coding

programme done by the FOSS Asia community.
So the goal of this program is to help

young developers and contributors to start
to work in open source software and how to

become an active contributor to open
source. So we have our FOSS Asia members

to guide them, so everything happenes on
GitHub, we have GitHub channels where

people can post questions. And at the end
the winners will win a trip to the FOSS

Asia Summit and present about their
working experience during the programme.

2018. So we released our Pocket Science
Lab to the market. So the project been

going on for the past two years and we
will finally produce them in China and now

started to distribute them all over the
world. So we have a shop in Japan which

has sold out in two days. We also
distributed in India, in Singapore, in

Europe and it's been piloting in school in
Singapore, in India and also in Vietnam.

So basically it's a small device that
helps you to make science experiments.

It's an oscilloscope with logic analyzer and
many different functions. We have a

workshop here as well at the CCC if you
want to find out more. Okay some of my

approach and lesson learned for the
question about what strategy that you do

to engage many people in the community and
how to rear the communitiy. So what I

learned from the past 10 years: The first
thing is to be sincere with whoever you

meet. That how my reaction in the
community to be sincere with people, and

empower the people in the community. Just
like when I first joined the community,

the more responsibility to give to people,
they feel empower and they, it's also

better to scale up the community.
Motivation; in order to work with people

and to find the right approach you need to
understand the motivation behind

individuals and it's really important to
rear the community. And my philosophy is

it always better by sharing. So we share
our knowledge, that what's the reason we

are here – we share our resources and we
bring people together. Finally, in the

FOSS Asia community, I made friends. Their
friendship is important over the years and

I know that the people I've been working
with or engaged with will be friends for

life – so that is a good thing about the
free software community. And next year

2009 will be our 10-year milestone of the
FOSS Asia organization. We have a big

celebration in Singapore between March 14
and 17. If you happen to be there or you

plan a trip to Asia you are very welcome
to join us. The website 2019.fossasia.org.

And here at the CCC we have a group of
FOSS Asia member flew in from Singapore,

from France, from Spain and also in
Germany. We have a laser cutter here,

built by a FOSS Asia member in Singapore,
open source laser cutter. The small

picture here is [???] carrying it and is
at our FOSS Asia assembly if you want to

check it out. If you want to get in touch
with us, or you want to look for me at the

end of the talk, you can search on the
navigation app for FOSS Asia and our

number is a 8575. Thank you.

applause

GdB: Thank you very much Hong for that
introduction into FOSS Asia and your work.

Azam, Sarah, would
you like to go next to present Le RESET?

Le Reset speaker (left): Okay so we both
come from France. We are part of Le RESET,

which is a feminist and queer hacker space
and we're going to explain a little bit

what we are doing, why we're doing it and
how. So our hacker space welcomes actively

people who usually do not feel safe or
included in many other hacker spaces. So

mostly queer persons and women, because
most of straight men feel really entitled

to learn and share what they learn and
teach everything. And on the other side

you have queer persons and women who have
major imposter syndrome when it comes to

technology. We observe these things and
also that the solutions to fix all issues

are also designed by straight men so they
are not adequate with our issues and that

we have a big lack of transmission in our
communities. So as we were to the geeky

ones around queers and queer ones around
geeks we did Le RESET to have a space that

is the intersection of queer and geek
people. So it takes place in a queer bar

in Paris every Sunday. And I'm really
scared, I'm sorry. We started in 2016 and

we speak directly to women and queers so
that they feel welcome and included and

would come to our space. We built a code
of conduct that we may discuss further,

that we embody so we endorse it and not
just write it somewhere. So our basis are

feminist ethics based on the "Ethics of
Care" by Joan Tronto. We do workshops for

beginners every session and we really
insist on the things for beginners. The

workshops are mainly hosted by queer or
women and we do not treat differently

infosec, coding, gaming, crafts, care
practice and all the things we do not make

a hierarchy. We analyzed the board
dynamics with material feminism and

most of our projects are cyber feminists.
Le Reset speaker (right): So I'm going to

talk a little more about some projects
that we have at Le Reset, what is it, so I

took three different examples. The best
example is the crypto bar. So it's

basically a one on one crypto party with
just one person as they were launched by

Asher Wolf and those security talks, they
are menu oriented toward cyber harassment

because women and queer people usually ask
us about security issues when they have

trouble with cyber harassment. And so we
have identified it to be the main threat

model for us, and not like the NSA or
something else. Another example of a

project that we have is "everything about
health reappropriation". So as women and

queers our health is often in the hands of
doctors that don't explain stuff to us or

that don't do what we want them to do with
our health because they have norms that

we're supposed to follow. And so we work
around. We work with transgender people

around hormones and also with trans people
and women around gynecology. And so we

have a partnership with women doing self
gynecology workshops. So we create zines

and we share knowledge and practices about
those and we also have a lab project that

is inspired by the je ne peine club from
Calafou and also by

the Open Source estrogen project by Mary
Maggic that was presented in the CCC last

year [https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9036-ope
n_source_estrogen]. And so the goal of

this lab project is to take and analyze
our own cervical smear so that we can do

an our own analysis with it. And the third
project I wanted to talk about was "the

queer games". So the queer games is an
artistic and political movement that was

initiated by an Entrepeneur Mattie
Brice. So the idea is that they're using

game design as a tool to criticize
oppression systems. And so we're doing

monthly queer games workshops in order to
empower queer people. We empower them

through rendering our own narratives
visible through video games and also by

learning skills to make our own video
games, even though most people who come

don't have any idea of how to code, so we
also learn coding through it.

GdB: Thank you very much
applause

GdB: Thank you for that introduction into
your work. I think a lot of points raised

that we're gonna debate also in a minute.
Em, can I ask you to go next.

Em O'Sullivan: I didn't have any slides
but I do have some notes and my story is

maybe a bit different to my other
panelists because I don't come from a

specifically feminist organization. I live
in Brighton in the UK and our hackerspace

is called Build Brighton. It started in
2009 so it was a fairly early hackerspace

in the UK. It grew out of an existing
meetup that was focused on robotics and

some of the people involved in that group
decided to set up their own hackerspace.

So it began fairly organically. It was
inspired largely by the early U.S. hacker

spaces in particular Mitch Altman visited
the robotics meetup when he was in

Brighton and basically said, "hey you look
like the kind of group who should start a

hackerspace" and that kind of triggered
the idea to go and set one up. So, it

followed the same kind of ad hoc kind of
democracy structure. It had some informal

leaders but things were kind of largely
decided by group consensus. For example

when we first moved into our own dedicated
space, we spent the first couple of years

meeting once a week in a coworking space
and then in 2011 had an opportunity to get

our own workshop and the decision about
whether to do that was put to the entire

membership around whether we wanted to
take on that responsibility, those extra

costs and that decision was passed by
consensus and that's kind of how things

have typically been done. In terms of
activities there's a lot of electronics

projects typically, especially with it
going out to robotics group. The laser

cutter has always been really popular and
was one of the first tools that was bought

by the group. And we've recently had lots
of wood work workers coming in because we

do have a fairly well-developed wood
working shop. In terms of gender diversity

is also a fairly typical hackerspace.
There's currently 115 members of which

around 10 to 15 percent are women or femme
presenting people and the aim of that

statistic isn't to point out like how low
this representation is in this particular

space. It's to highlight that this is a
typical number for a hackerspace. For me

personally, a bit like Hong Phuc said, I'm
used to being in masculine spaces like I

trained in media production originally
which is very male dominated. Then when I

went to work in IT it was normal for me to
be at events that were mainly men and I

suppose I just got used to this and it
became invisible to me. At the time I was

working for a software development company
in Brighton and the company had two

offices one for the technical team and one
for the rest of the staff. So like admin

team, production team, HR, finance and so
on. My desk was in the tech room and I

looked up one day and realized that I was
the only femme presenting person in a room

of 20 men. It took that to kind of dropped
me back into realizing how weird the

situation was and I also realized that
"Build Brighton", my hackspace, was a

similar environments as well. And I became
really interested in why this was

happening, because hacker spaces they are
theoretically open environments, like our

space anyone can join. Membership is on a
pay what you can basis from five pounds a

month. So the financial cost to entry are
very low. But we are still seeing the same

issues as in other technology environments
and that's women and femme people were

very underrepresented. I saw this as a
useful opportunity to look at the cultural

issues that continue to prevent women's
engagement in technology spaces even when

some of those structural and financial
barriers have been removed. And the reason

this was really important to me as a topic
was because like for me personally joining

my hackerspace was an extremely empowering
experience. I didn't have much experience

before with DIY, with hardware, with
working with materials, and joining that

community and having access to those tools
and that knowledge had a huge impact on

how I see the world around me, on my
confidence to fix and adapt things when I

need to and I really want more people to
have access to that empowerment.

Especially people who don't necessarily
have existing experience with technology.

So in 2016 I began my PhD looking at how
some hacker spaces and maker spaces have

been more successful than others in
engaging women and femme people. I'm

currently still in the data collection
phase of my research, but I visited

various hacker spaces and maker spaces
around Europe and the US, spoken to lots

of people from these spaces and seen a
wide range of approaches to dealing with

gender diversity, ranging from acute
hostility towards any suggestion of

specifically trying to engage women, right
through to spaces that have made this a

core part of that group culture. So I hope
that range of perspectives can come in

useful to discussion today. And I'm also
currently putting together a zine with

contributions from hacker spaces and maker
spaces that have developed inclusive

practices, not necessarily focused on
gender but also on engaging other

underrepresented groups like people of
color, people with disabilities, people

with lower socio economic statuses because
I think it's really important that those

practices are publicized as widely as
possible so that other spaces can learn

from them. So if any of you have any
suggestions about spaces that should be

included in that zine please do email me.
My contact details are on the Fahrplan and

I would love to hear about any spaces that
you could recommend.

GdB: Thank you! And last but not least Lena.
Lena Mohr: I'm Lena, I'm one of the three

founders of "ready to code". We are an
organization based based in Stuttgart in

the south of Germany. Our story started...
so know first what we do is we inspire

women and girls to learn how to code and
to work in tech and support each other.

There are two main reasons why we do what
we do. I think the first one is quite

obvious that there are not enough women
who work in tech, and the second one is

more personal because I am a user
experience designer, and part of my

studies was learning how to code and I
found it extremely difficult because I had

all these biases and pictures in my head
and I just knew that I was going to fail

at coding before I ever wrote my first
line of code. I was not alone with this. I

saw this and a lot of my friends and a lot
of the girls who studied with me. And the

good news is that we had to pass the exam
so we sort of had to learn it. and I also

had really great and really patient
friends who not only taught me to code and

taught me the facts but also convinced me
that I was able to do that. And the moment

when you clicked like you said that was a
really empowering moment, because I felt

like the not only the knowledge opened a
whole new world of opportunities, but also

the self-confidence that I gained through
that. And that is what we also want to

share with other women and girls. So what
we do is we run workshops for women and

for girls and like Le Reset we make sure
that they are for a beginner so everyone

can participate, and I think we're
probably going to talk about that as well

a little bit further. And we also have a
networking event that's called cocktails

and code where women in tech can meet and
connect and share their experiences and we

organize lightning talks from female
speakers so yeah people who are new to

tech can come and it's fairly low level
and everyone can participate. And we also

organize different events. For example a
couple of weeks ago we organized a social

hackathon on and I think what we do a
little bit different is that one of our

founders is a guy, a straight cis guy. So
a lot of the volunteers that are working

for us are also male and we had a lot of
good experiences with this because we

think it's important to include everyone.
But we talked a little bit before and I

think we're going to have a discussion
about that afterwards as well, that a lot

of women who come to us are also looking
for females only space, so they really

appreciate a safer space where they can
just be around other women.

GdB: Thank you very much, Lena. So as
you've heard we have very different work

rounds that say very different rooms of
experiences. And we'd like to just jump

right into discussion. We're going to take
about 15, 20 minutes to discuss a little

bit amongst ourselves before opening and
including all of you in the debate. So

let's pick up straight the point that you
closed with and I'd like you to join in

but I think I'll direct the question at
you first. Sometimes we have to, or it

seems that way, we'd have to be exclusive
in order to increase inclusion or

fairness. And if I understood you
correctly you've created a space that

doesn't necessarily exclude anybody but it
doesn't put straight men in the focus. Can

you explain a little bit exactly how you
try to shape that community that you're

working with and where you're where you
drew the line of inclusion and exclusion

in your approach.
Le Reset speaker (right): So we have a

code of conduct. Everybody is welcome to
come into hackerspace as long as they

apply to the code of conduct. So we are
open to everyone but everything that we

organize is directed to queer people and
women. So our communication is oriented

towards them. The workshops organized also
by queer people and women. So basically we

just don't care about straight men.
Gdb: But they can come.

Le Reset speaker (right): They can come.
(laughter and applause)

Gdb: Lena you said one of your founders is

a straight man, so that's something that
you do that you do differently.

Lena: We just started a year ago so we are
also still trying our different

approaches. And I like what you said that,
I think you mentioned that they are

invited if they want to come but you're
not marketing for them. You saw our logo.

And in the first workshop that we ran for
kids we said it's only for girls. And the

second one we said we have reserving a
number of seats for girls because we want

to increase diversity and no boy signed
up. So from now on we're not even putting

it's only for girls on our flyers but
because it looks so girly no boys

interested in joining us apparently and I
think that's interesting because usually

it works the other way around so probably
subconsciously or unconsciously it's

posters or websites look like they're made
for boys or for guys and women don't feel

attrackted to it. And we do it the other
way around and it works quite well. But

yeah. But we also have men that are asking
us like "Oh we we also like cocktails and

code, Why can't we join?" And it's like
yeah of course you can. You're welcome. We

didn't have any negative experience with
it so far.

GdB [to Em O'Sullivan]: you're going to be
our academic sounding board at this panel.

In the research that you've conducted, do
you see certain kinds of trends emerging

or sort of maybe perhaps as a strength of
certain strategies of those hacker spaces

or communities or programs that try to
specifically target not straight men but

other communities. On the question of "how
exclusive do you have to be, to be

inclusive".
Em O'Sullivan: So, I've been to spaces

that are women only or women and non
binary people only, and they're really

important for getting over the question of
"is it just that women aren't interested"

which is something that I've encountered
in a few spaces. It's like well you know

we're not excluding women they just don't
seem to be interested. They're not coming

here. And then when you provide a women
only space and women go there, then you

can point to that and go: Well okay that's
just not true. That must be something

about these other spaces that isn't
including them. But then the next step is

how do you get that inclusion to work in
an all gender space. Because, we live in

an all gender world. And how do you it
take out of those safe spaces and take it

into other environments and that there
does need to be a specific aim to be

inclusive. It's interesting that you say
it's like, we don't exclude men. We just

kind of don't focus stuff on them. And
that seems to be the approach of maker

spaces, and hacker spaces in general.
Except there's no recognition of that.

There's that, well, we don't exclude
women. You know, they're just not here.

Like, they could come here and there's not
the recognition that all of their

presentation, like all of the their
culture, from the outside looks like it's

geared towards men. And so of course
that's the kind of people that they

attract. But yeah, they haven't made that
decision, it's just what they're doing and

there's no recognition of it. So yeah, to
change that there does have to be a

recognition that if you want to attract
people from different groups then you do

need to reach out and specifically engage
them. it's not going to just happen by

itself.
GdB: Thank you. Hong, how has it been for

you in the last 10 years of managing FOSS
Asia? Because, there's another level that

comes in. You do this across different
cultures and across different countries

within Southeast Asia. How do you find
that it's developed over the last 10

years, and how much do you have to put an
emphasis on trying to bring in not just

women, but perhaps also people from
different backgrounds into your community.

Hong Phuc Dang: So, if you look at
Southeast Asia, and I look at and FOSS

Asian community we find diverse and
inclusive. It would take forever to talk

about of different cultures from
Singapore, Malaysia. It's also related to

the religions and the culture of each
country. But, could I ask the Le RESET

hackerspace a question? I was curious. I
kind of have the same opinion with Em. I

was curious, was there any experience in
the past that motivated you to create a

base that or focus more on women instead
of men. Is there any bad experience, an

incident that occurred to you?
Le Reset speaker: Yes, of course.

Hong Phuc Dang: Could you share a little
bit about it? Because, I always say I,

fought it passive, you know that maybe I
was lucky, because in our community I

haven't experienced that much of a kind of
incident that make me feel that I need a

space for myself. Because when I joined
the open source community, I feel that

everyone's very welcome, and also people
don't look at you as who you are. People

always look at your work and your
contribution to the community. So,

sometimes you're in a conversation and you
don't even realize that you are with a

bunch of other people from Europe or men.
You focus on the topic, and the work that

you do. So I'm curious to learn about the
incident that you had before.

Le Reset speaker (left): I have a few
examples if you want, but I think it's not

about what you can do or not, that it's
about coming in the space and you feeling

that you can come here and stay and be
well welcomed. So, as a woman actually...

I'm sorry I'm a little sick. The people
were asking if I came with my boyfriend,

where he was. So, they were wondering what
I was doing here, because I was a woman.

So, sorry, I don't have any boyfriend,
will never have one, but many girlfriends.

So, no. And also, I was waiting to do lock
picking and waiting in the line to do

that. When I came to the tools the guy
said: Oh sorry, you have to leave the

place for the guy, because I was just here
to look not to try. Many things like that.

Hong Phuc Dang: Did that lock picking
happen here at a congress?

Le Reset speaker (left): Yeah, I know.
Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so now we know what

prevent women from joining the tech
community. So maybe it wasn't intentional?

GdB (to Hong Phuc Dang): So you, I mean I
think it's really interesting what you

said, when in your community and
experience you have you see the code and

not the gender. I think a lot of people
here in the room. I'm guessing it came to

the session but also on the panel have had
really different experiences, but of

course this is really positive here. Maybe
even a little bit surprising to hear,

because perhaps that would have been maybe
a stereotypical perception that in some

other societies which are part of
South/Southeast Asia the very traditional

and it's maybe not so typical for women to
be or people of different backgrounds.

Maybe, like I said not just women but also
people of different educational

backgrounds of different cultural
backgrounds to be part of this community.

But of course it's very nice to hear that
you've had a very different experience.

That's I think a keyword that we've heard
from many of you and you also mentioned

your core values is empowerment and
creating empowerment empowering

experiences for others. You've already
said a little bit about how you try to do

that and giving people space to create
their own narratives. Do you want to share

a little bit more, what have been like
successes for you were you noticed this

has been working for your commu nity.
Lena Mohr: Maybe I could start?

Le Reset speaker(right): Go on.
Lena Mohr: I think one of the women who

came to our meetup afterwards. She came to
us and she was really happy and she said

like: "Ok, I have a place where I can be
among my geek friends and talk about geeky

stuff and I have my feminist friends to
whom I can come and talk about feminist

stuff and but I never had both." So I have
friends and I think it's also important

that you mentioned that it wasn't it
probably wasn't intentional, when someone

asks you like: "Hey where's your
boyfriend?". Maybe it was trying to start

a conversation, but that doesn't make it
any better.

Le Reset speaker (left): I'm not sure,
but...

Lena Mohr: Ok, that's even...
GdB: Yeah, I mean I can also say like I

have the same experience regularly and
it's an... Even in spaces where I've been

member for years and that I really love
dearly and I think you know you sort of at

least me, past me I never try to take
offense, but of course it is offensive and

this is something we had a quick chat
about your level of tolerance for this.

The threshold of acceptance is for me at
least becomes less and less and I think we

had a quick conversation and one of the
keywords was patience. So, when you have

tried to sort of, yeah, already create
spaces that are different for communities

like all of ours that are different you
want... You know, you expect more

basically. Expect people to be better at
this game and things to change faster. So

I think the sort of level of frustration
that builds up when you find it is not

changing as you know just as you said in
your talk. It's shocking to hear that that

level of apprehension of including women
and doing things to actually really

support women coming in and making sure
all parts of society are equally

represented is still that strong. Do
you... Have you looked into like the "why"

a little bit in your research.
Em O'Sullivan: Like something that's

really interesting is that, in the absence
of groups like people with disabilities is

more readily seen as something that can be
helped by changing the space by

introducing kind of ramps, wheelchair
access technologies and rearranging the

space, so that it's more accessible. But
then when it comes to cultural aspects,

such as including women, that seen as
something that's unchangeable. So spaces

are often willing to change to be more
diverse, but they have kind of a mental

block on being able to include people like
women or people of color, who they see as

more kind of. There's no way that these
groups can come and join us. They're just

not interested and so like that's a very
unusual thing to see.

GdB: So you mentioned earlier, that you
have a code of conduct. And... and I think

that's, I'd love to hear like, how did you
develop this code of conduct for your

community? And is this sort of a living
thing? Did you come up with this in the

beginning and it's been set like that or
is it something that you revise and how do

you implement it?
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually it's a

really simple code of conduct with 10
phrases and sentences and it says not to

discriminate anybody and to respect
boundaries and things that are making us

all live together well. That's the
important thing is that we endorse it

really, so we put it on the walls. We talk
about it and we observe the dynamics into

the hackerspace. What do people do. How do
they feel we welcome them. We apply ethics

of care that do the things I was talking
about. We help people, but we do not do

things on their behalf. We do not speak
for the persons, but we are here to

support, if they need. That's how it
works.

GdB: So are there many cases, where you
find, you need to mediate or have you had

cases where you've had to exclude people
based on your code of conduct?

Le Reset speaker (right): We haven't
excluded many people, but we feel totally

fine with having to exclude someone, we're
not afraid of it. But usually we try to

talk to the person before we have to get
them out and remind them of the code of

conduct. Our code of conduct is something
that we have to apply, but it's also full

of keywords and so the idea is that every
time we're saying that organizing a

workshop or doing your conference we talk
about it and we tell people to read it

before they come. So that they also can
google the words that they don't know, so

that they come into hackerspace and they
know what it means to actually respect

somebodies pronouns or things like this.
GdB: So. How would you all balance sort of

the mission of what your space is about to
do and what your communities are there to

do in terms of creating safe space for the
people that you have as part of your

community and educating the rest of the
world.

Hong Phuc Dang: I can say something. So
code of conduct is a good way to ensure

that safe space for people. And in terms
of inclusiveness, so there, so I think

that in order to solve this problems at
first, is a good way that we bring people

together who can talk about the challenges
and incidents; that they had in the past

so that the people in the audience also
aware that they might not intentionally

raise this question. But now people aware
of what could be offense do to another

members. But I think one of the bigger
challenge is that the people in the

community sometimes people are not aware
of the level the difference of background

of different people in the community. For
instance, I want to give one example. So,

when you visit one of the hackersspace in
Singapore. Normally when you come in even

though this is your first time entered a
hackerspace, nobody would come and talk to

you, try to introduce to you to the space,
what other equipment is, because they

assumed that you already have the
knowledge. If you enter this, there's got

to be good you know everything. And
sometime I found a little bit intimidated

that I did not understand some joke that
make by my male colleagues, because they

have different kind of knowledge coming
from the west from Europe or America. So

it's very important that we are aware that
people coming from different backgrounds.

So something that you think that is so
obvious to you that might not be obvious

to people. And it might raise some kind of
conflict and misunderstanding. Something

if we are all aware, that piece of
knowledge we have might not be relevant to

another person and always be aware and be
more flexible, then that could be less

complex in the community in my opinion.
GdB: So again like I said

(applause)
GdB: you're free to applaud.

GdB: How do you try to balance that?
Le Reset speaker (right): We welcome

everybody that comes into this space.
We're here every Sunday, so we usually

know who has come before and who hasn't.
And every time we see a new person there

is always someone who comes and explain
the code of conduct, but also like: what

is this space, where you can find the
stickers, where is the workshop. So we

explain everything.
GdB: I think that sounds really nice. I

think from what you've explained there's a
lot of magic in that very personal

approach. You know, it's not that you're
like take them into your space when they

come in, but it's like this taking care of
each other and looking out for one

another, which should be part of
respectful human conduct. No matter what

kind of human you are. Right. Maybe one
last topic on the panel before we open up

a little bit or maybe wanted to. I thought
it was really interesting to read on one

of the little things on your slide. I
really like the one that said, I was writing

too fast now I can't read my own writing:
"It is just privileged people's choice."?

So in my experience very often we create
spaces like yours or like community, or

creating the mind of creating. Bringing in
new people and giving people, who maybe

haven't had sort of their typical tech
career, a chance to explore and see that

they can be the creators of technology
themselves. But we end up also creating

kind of bubbles and usually attracting
people with a certain background, usually

creating spaces with people. We live in
Europe, we're like, you know, middle class

white communities. And that's also,
perhaps, not the level of playing fields,

when it comes to creating inclusive
technology. Is that something that you

address in your spaces? I'm not looking at
you specifically because it's a little bit

of a different intercultural setting that
you have with FOSS Asia. But how does

that come into play, when we talk about
diversity in your experiences?

Le Reset speaker (left): Actually we are
located in a queer bar. So the people that

are used to come to this bar to party and
date - they also come on Sundays, so we

have people that would never enter a
hacker space, you know, in other times. So we

have, actually, met many women, many trans
people and queer people. One time we had

this girl, who never touched a computer.
We have people who have never played video

games and so on. So we have really diverse
public.

GdB: I think that's also interesting as
that was mentioned before the setting of

where your space actually is, which is a
really important fact of how to make

spaces accessible to different communities
as well. How's that for the space that you

have out there?
Em: So this is such a tricky question and

particularly with the volunteer one
spaces. You have a limited amount of time

and energy and do you spend that on
educating people, or do you spend it on

engaging with people, who can use your
resources. And I lean towards the

engagement. I feel that it's important to
kind of get people in and to share what we

already have with other groups. There are
resources out there, where people can

educate themselves - like people in
technology communities, like very

intelligent people, like they are more
than capable of kind of finding other

resources and educating themselves. And if
the group has the capacity, for example,

to run workshops around specific issues,
around consents, around kind of

introductions to feminism and other topics
- then that's great. And that can be a

great way of educating our own community
and also taking those ideas into the

outside community. But I think if it
was... if time was limited then I would

definitely want to dedicate more to
engagement rather than educating people

who are capable of educating themselves.
Le Reset speaker (right): About that

education. Our hackerspace has been
invited to give feminism 101 talks

like a lot. And so we answered yes to
those invitation and then we did not do

feminism 101, because we believe
that there has been enough talks about

feminism 101 already and there is
plenty of things available on the

Internet. So we make usually talks about
ethics of care or cyber feminism. And

every time we go somewhere we have a wiki
page about it with all the links about

four lines definition on Wikipedia or 40
pages PDF that you can download, or

podcasts, so all the feminism 101
and all the education has already been

done. So we are making sure that it's
accessible and then we are moving on,

because as you said we don't have this
energy to do again and again what other

have done before us.
applause

Lena: I think you've mentioned it already.
And I think you're also working

voluntarily or a lot of volunteers come
and so, do they have the time and energy?

As for me it's also sometimes... I'm just
not in the mood to explain everything

again, like the really 101 stuff.
But other times, when I feel like someone

is really curious and really wants to
learn something, and is respectful, and is

not trying to provoke a discussion just to
have a discussion - because then, yeah, I

don't know... With some persons I feel
like: okay, for him it might be a fun

discussion just to, I don't know, just to
test the borders and see how far you can

go. But for me it's like: okay I'm talking
if I have the right to be here as a woman

and I don't always feel like I want to
discuss that.

GdB: Your patience level is going down as
well. Hong Phuc, how is it for you, how do

you try to engage people in open source
communities that perhaps wouldn't normally

walk into a hackerspace? Or don't yet know
about the work that you do.

Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So I found FOSS
Asia. And then for me it was quite lucky,

because the founder of the organization is
a female. So it also help make other

people feel more comfortable to engage
with the open source community. But I

think as Em and Lena also said that the
number of women, who work in the tech

community, is very small. And I think it's
important to understand that when you talk

about technology - it's not only about
coding, because there are so many

different responsibilities and a
possibility that you could engage the

woman or other community members in the
community. So it's important to have the

guide lines to help people, a lot of good
documentation. To show people that by

joining the community the first step you
did not have to fix a bug or write a line of

code in order to join the community. You
can do a translation, you can do design,

localization - many things that any single
one of us can be involved in, can

contribute as our space. So I think that
is one step to lower the barriers to enter

the community.
GdB:Thank you.

applause
GdB: I'd like to start opening up the

questions and comments. We have I think
two microphones here in the center of the

room and... you're first.
Mic: Hello. First of all thank you girls

very much for this session. I kind of
relate to that, we're so to say from the

same club. I came from Estonia and there
I'm the organizer of the conference women

in cybersecurity and also head of Google
women tech makers in Estonia. And I can

rely to a lot of things, which you have
mentioned. But what I am really interested

because you're from different countries
is... Ms Dong has answered this question

partially, but I'm interested in other
answers. How do you actually attract more

women into IT? Not from the marketing
perspective, but from the perspective for

your mission of your hacker space or your
community. And how do you make those

people stay and come to the events or, if
not come to the events, how do you make

them thinking of that and continue
studying? Yeah. And the success story that

is something what we all would be really
interested in hearing. Because, for

example, from Ms. Dong's story we can see
the open source projects I guess still a

lot of girls might have been involved
there; and the hotel and other projects.

But what about the Europe? Tell us, that's
very curious. Thank you.

GdB: Thank you very much. So we collect a
couple and then go around or how would you

like to do it?
Mic: I can remind the questions if needed.

How do you attract, how do you keep people
and how do you... the success stories.

GdB: Thank you. So let's do that. Do you
have your community, is it very

fluctuating? Or do you have a kind of
stable group of people? Do you ever have a

problem of connecting them back to your
space?

Mic: Just before we start from the answer
for ladies - there is something else I

wanted to mention. I also come not from
a....

GdB: There is a long queue behind you, and
we've already collected a couple of

questions, so maybe just one more
sentence.

Mic: Of course. Yeah. Thank you... No,
then go ahead for the answer.

GdB: Okay. Thank you. How long time is
your community, how much does it

fluctuate, how do you sort of keep people?
Le Reset speaker (right): We have people

that come like every Sunday and we have
people, who come just for one workshop,

because they've been interested in that
topic. What we do to attract people is

that every Sunday we have a workshop, at
least one workshops, so people are usually

interested in the topic or just interested
in meeting new people. But they always

know that they won't just stand there and
have nobody to talk to. There is a

workshop, like they have a purpose for
being here. And because the topics are

always oriented towards women and queer we
don't have any issue attracting women and

queers in the hackerspace. We've never had
a majority of straight men in the

hackerspace that has never happened.
GdB: Thank you. So Em, and your

experience?
Em: Well, I mean it's a huge question how

do you attract women into IT and retain
shortthem. Just to keep my answer fairly sure:

one particular tip I have is to get a bit
academic for a second, kind of focus on

developing like the social bonds within
your community rather than necessarily the

tech aspects. Like when people have
friends and people they care about in this

community - they're much more likely to
join it and want to stay there and to get

more out of it. So sometimes focusing on
things that seem quite tangential like

socializing and people spending time
together, like outside of the physical

space and kind of doing like fun non tech
things together, like can actually do that

job of bringing more women than and femme
people in and helping them to feel

comfortable and welcome there.
GdB: I think there's a challenge maybe the

other way around too. In my experience
it's for many people spaces, like the ones

that you create, become a home and so sort
of keeping people, having people want to

be part of that home is not so hard. But
making sure that you remain open for new

people to sort of join that family and
feel as equally welcome can sometimes be

an even bigger challenge than attracting
people and keeping them in the beginning.

Next question.
Mic: So my question will mostly be related

to this mergery of the feminist hacker
spaces and the male hacker spaces. So I

see that you are making spaces for women
and for a queer to get creative, but

making these separate from other hacker
spaces in a bit of an isolation and I

guess this would be a next step to merge
these kind of societies. So from a male

perspective it's sometimes hard to
understand what female don't find

attractive or find distracting about
joining male societies, because feminist

activism usually do not target male to
express what the problem is. So what do

you think that could be done towards this
mergery? So to make women try to get

involved in male hacker spaces and to make
men more acceptive to female. So this

mergery to get involved together. I hope
my question was on this...

laughing
GdB: You can all feel free

Le Reset speaker (right): I don't think
our goal is to merge our hacker spaces. We

are creating hacker spaces around our
issues, if you want to come you're

welcome. But what you will find here is
things that concerns us. But of course

you're welcome. And...
applause

Le Reset speaker (right): We don't have
any interest in your issues so we're not

coming to your hacker spaces. But...
applause

Mic: Yeah. I understand this. And I don't
think that what you do is wrong. I just

think that this is a sort of isolation
between two different kinds of creative

energy.
GdB: Let's...

Le Reset speaker (right): I think you've
been in isolation much more longer than

us.
applause

Mic: I mean probably separation, not
isolation.

GdB: Let's.. Again I'm gonna say, there
are many people queuing behind you, so we

do want to get in a conversation with
everyone, but we want to give everybody

the chance to speak as well. I think I'm
gonna rephrase your question if I may,

when it comes to the actual creation of
technology. Because I think that... let's

see if there are two separate things or
not: the one thing is that you have a

community and you have a space for that
community, and you want to prioritize the

issues of your community. The other
question is when we create technology and

we create technology for the general
public. How do we ensure that that

technology is created by the public as in
all members of that public and then

reflects all of our values equally.
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe

in the general public.
GdB: Sorry?

Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe
in the general public.

applause
Hong Phuc Dang: So I could answer your

question. I also don't want to give
comment about if we merging the two

groups. But if you want to make your
space, any hacker space, more welcome to

woman or any member, the first thing: just
like in a normal context - if you have a

new guest coming to your home, the first
thing is that to show the guest around.

Like to interact with a person and to be
patient, and show them what they can do.

And also one thing that I mentioned
earlier: because people have different

background knowledge so it's more
important that you find out what is their

motivation, to get to know the people
better. So make this more like the women

feel more comfortable to come you to your
space instead of asking them to merge

together with another space. Just create a
more friendly environment in your space.

By just approaching the people, the
newcomers and welcome them.

applause
GdB: Next person please.

Mic: So I have some more of experience to
share than the question. I organize events

for geeks and they are very male heavy,
let's say. And what I found is when it

comes to disabled people and that the
community is more likely to actually

change is because then they change
environment and they don't have to change

themselves.
applause

Mic: The huge problem usually is that the
male populated hacker space are generally

community in general, feel that when they
have to open to female presence or a gay

presence, etc. they have to change their
own behavior. And that it's not something

they are willing to do. Sadly enough.
Thanks.

GdB: Thank you. Was that question in there
you just wanted to share. Okay good. Thank

you. There's an online question we'd like
to take next please.

Signal Angel: The question was answered.
GdB: Oh...

laughing
GdB: Okay then. In that case.

Mic: Hello. Thank you. First of all thank
you for all of your great work. I just

want to have a question about something
that maybe a little bit missed in this

conversation. And so we talked about all
of the communities and the hacker spaces

that focused on a woman and non binaries.
But imagine a scenario that there is a

company or there's like a startup and
there is not much diversity and we want to

improve like representation of people of
marginalized group or anyway. How

we can achieve that? There are lots of
suggestions like hire people who are like

visible to others, to be very open about
this and try to attract more people. But

is there any sort of way to talk to get
these successful stories about to improve

the diversity of companies and startups
and other types of communities?

GdB: Thank you.
Lena: I think it's often you have biases

sometimes in the hiring process, so maybe
you go through different CVs of different

persons and then you... I only know
examples from Germany, but I guess it's

the same everywhere. If you read a CV with
a name that sounds foreign to you, you

might put it to the side or might
automatically think: okay maybe this

person is not equally capable. Even if the
skills are the same. And also in your job

descriptions you can make sure that it's
more inclusive so you don't say like: okay

the perfect person "he" should have this
and that's, put "he and she". And I think

a lot of times it's about really really
subtle changes and small things. And like

you said it's a change of the mindset. So
it's...

GdB: Yeah, please.
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually, you

know, in Le Reset we do not value success
stories at all. We don't care. We value

partnership. Partnership and being well
together, and that's what works actually.

We do many things, but not by pushing
things. To be a woman or queer, or

whatever... we do what we want to do, what
we like and that works. That's just that.

Mic: Thank you.
GdB: Thank you.

applause
GdB: Maybe we can exchange after this. Oh

there's a lot of great written walks
already out there that give advice to

companies and startups that want be more
inclusive. But like the the simplest thing

if, like you said it yourself, if you want
to be inclusive - have an inclusive team.

You cannot have an inclusive or diverse
startup if your team are all men and the

excuse that you didn't find the right
people out there doesn't really go. Either

because, like you said, then maybe you're
looking the wrong way. And if you

seriously can't find anybody with a
skillset you're looking for - then help

people build that skillset. So there are
always ways to actually do that in your

team. Please.
Mic: Hi. Six of you proposed talks. We got

one talk. Yes you are six awesome women.
It's an awesome topic. We've got an

audience of roughly 50/50. It's one of the
most balanced audiences I've seen that

this entire event, but I'm pretty certain
that the men in here are majority male

allies. The women you're preaching to the
perverted here, why is it that we have

allowed ourselves to be gerrymandered in
this way. Why do we have only one session.

Why do we not have six sessions.
applause

Mic: Adams, Borg, Clark, Dijkstra. The
meeting rooms are named after men! Women

are 50/50 of the population. Why are we
allowing this to happen. I appreciate. I'm

looking you in the eye and I'm guilty
here of preaching to perverted too. But

why are we allowing it. Why is it
happening. It's 2018. It's soon to be

2019. We deserve better.
applause

Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. Thank you very
much for your concern. But I think that...

don't you think that is good to bring
people together because, of course like we

can have separate section, but it also
very good to have everyone come together

and share their opinions so we can have a
conversation, in which we can learn for

each other. So again that the congress is
very busy. Not everyone can come to every

single talk. Maybe we'll not be able to
attend always our friends who are the

panelists here. But it's good that we can
come all together. So are always pro and

con. But thank you very much for your
concern.

applause
GdB: We have exactly time for one last

question/intervention and that shall be
you.

Mic: Thank you. Thank you for the talk and
thank you for this opportunity. I'm

probably in the category of a straight
male engineer. But I also more or less...

but I also have, I'm running a coworking
space in Copenhagen and I'm specifically

focusing on making it inclusive. So I'll
be trying to find an information and tips

on how to do that. But I have two other
questions then. What would be your top

three action points on ending the digital
gender divide? It's a big topic, I know.

laughing
GdB: There's a small question for the end

of session.
Mic: Yeah.

GdB: And you had a second one even.
Mic: Yeah. The second one was...

laughing
Mic: I guess that's, I mean, I really see

the points being raised about designing. I
mean just down to the level of design:

designing a website targeted to a male
audience versus targeted to a female

audience. And the second question was...
What was that... The FOSS Asia. In Asia I

read an article lately from after access
magazine about Internet usage throughout

the global south. And it's thus in Asia
you have like 20 percent of the population

on the Internet. Do you see that as a
problem? And what do you think could be

done about it?
GdB: Okay so how do we close the digital

divide as such and how to close the gender
divide. Specifically. Okay. Thank you.

Hong Phuc Dang: And I don't want to
announce that I am suggested we have a

after panel discussion, so we hosted a
follow up discussion at the FOSS Asia

assembly after this. If you have more
questions and you want to continue the

conversation we can meet there at 8:15?
GdB: 8:15 to 9:15. We're not dodging your

question or we're just going to move it to
that meetup. I hope that's okay. As we

have run over time. But I would like to end
maybe with a little bit of a closing

round, because I think this came out of a
number of statements that you made, on

your specific and of course work as a
leader of the open source community, which

is on shared resources. So you mentioned
that a lot of times you're putting your

resources out there and they're out there
for other people to share and learn from.

I'd be interested and a little bit of
closing round of either recommendations,

reading recommendations, places to go look
for further information, maybe places

where you can be publishing your research.
But although the question of connecting

like how do we strengthen each other's
work. Not just by coming together at

conferences like this but by making our
knowledge open and sharing it and perhaps

also exchanging experiences with one
another. So if maybe you want to leave

with an idea or a recommendation, or a
point of inspiration, or question on that

issue. Let's do a quick round. You want to
start?

Em: So we're quite lucky in the UK that we
have the UK Hackspace Foundation which is

a kind of Umbrella group for the [not
understandable] hackerspaces in the UK and

these kind of organisations can be great
for raising discussions about these

topics. I'm really pushing to have more of
focus on inclusivity and diversity in the

UK Hackspace Foundation at the moment and
that can be a way of kind of funnelling

best practices out through all of the
member organizations.

GdB: Thank you.
Lena: I think for us it's we really focus

on, like you mentioned as well, the
personal connection. So yeah we would of

course prefer that you visit us for
coctails and code, and I think there are a

lot of almost.. I think in the bigger
cities you will find of feminist or women

only or women and non binary people only
spaces. And if there is none, maybe then

you should found one. Because I think it's
really important and I think it happens a

lot through personal connections.
GdB: Thank you, Lena.

Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So it is something
you all are welcome at our open source

hotel in Vietnam now if you ever want to
visit and welcome at any FOSS Asia events.

At the same time I think that we could
share our best practices and the

successful story on our website. So
whatever the FOSS Asia developed and what

we do we publish everything. I think that
is a good way to share resources with

other communities. And a panel discussion
is always good to learn and to continue

the conversation.
GdB: It's definitely good moment with you

guys. Sarah.
Le Reset speaker (right): There is only

one thing to do is to go to our Wiki. We
have all the resources that you need, in

French.
laughing

Hong Phug Dang: Our website is in English
laughingapplause

Le Reset speaker (right): So yeah, we will
try. As after this conference and this as

I say we will try to put the video on our
Wiki with a page with all the references

as we do usually in French and so we will
do it in English this time. So you should

find it in a few days on our Wiki which is
Wiki.LeReset.org.

GdB: Excellent.
applause

GdB: I would like to thank you all for
hanging in such great ideas for this event

for sitting on this panel and sharing your
thoughts and experiences. Thank you Azam.

Thank you Sarah. Thank you Hong. Thank you
Lena. Thank you Em. For being part of the

session. Thank you all for attending and
your inputs and ideas as well. And let's

say a big thank you to the stage host and
the translators for doing a wonderful job

as well.

applause

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