WEBVTT
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35C3 preroll music
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Herald: I will now hand over the
microphone to our moderator, Geraldine De
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Bastion, who apart from the French name
does not speak French.
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Thank you very much.
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laughter
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Geraldine De Bastion: Thank you so much
for having me here and hopefully enough
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English to moderate the session. Hi
everybody. My name is Geraldine and I'm
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very proud to be moderating this session.
Maybe a few words to kick off with;
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usually sessions at CCC come together
because one person or team of people hand
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in a topic that they feel they would like
to talk about here on one of these stages.
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This session came together because several
people handed in sessions where they
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wanted to address how they're trying to
build communities or spaces that are
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specifically feminist, diverse, and
inclusive. And we thought it would be a
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great idea to give not just one person who
handed in a session, or two people, but
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all the people who handed in sessions on
this topic the stage. So this is how the
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session came together: by us grouping
together different submissions on the
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topic. And so I'm very happy that we have
five very interesting and excellent humans
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here to speak on the topic matter and will
be presenting their different approaches
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and their different strategies to building
feminist spaces and communities. And I'd
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like to welcome them here on stage. So
first off we have Hong Phuc who runs FOSS
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Asia, which is a community in
Asia/Southeast Asia for developing
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software and hardware specifically open
source. Welcome Hong!
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applause
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GdB: We have Azam and Sarah from Le RESET,
which is a feminist
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queer hackerspace.
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applause
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GdB: Welcome! We have Em O'Sullivan former
hackerspace and maker fair organizer, now
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researching how to improve women and non
binary people's engagement in maker a
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spaces. Welcome Em!
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applause
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GdB: And last but not least we have Lena
Mohr, who is a UX designer from Stuttgart,
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started an initiative called Ready to
Code, teaching young girls to code.
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Welcome Lena.
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applause
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GdB: And as I said, my name is Geraldine
de Bastion. I run a community called the
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Global Innovation Gathering, which is a
network of different maker spaces, hacker
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spaces, different kind of innovation,
makers and innovators across the world. So
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a quick housekeeping note for the session.
The format is that we're going to give
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each of the teams here on stage the
opportunity to present their work to you
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in about seven to 10 minutes, and then
we'll get to gather here to discuss the
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difference and the likenesses in
approaches and in perspectives,
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experiences and ideas. And then we would
like to invite you all to join this
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discussion and open the floor. So to kick
things off I would invite you first to
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share a little bit the story of FOSS Asia
and your work at the last 10 years, Hong.
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Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. I did not
expect that I would go first, but that's
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okay.
shuffling
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There we go.
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Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so hello everyone!
My name is Hong Phuc Dang, or HP Dang if
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you want to look for me on the web. So
today I will talk about how I get involved
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in open source community in the first
place, and also some highlights of my work
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at FOSS Asia during the past 10 years.
Before that a little bit about my
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background. I was born and grew up in a
small town in South Vietnam. It is called
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Can Tho, I don't know if any of you have
been there before, but it's about 200
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kilometers south of Hoh Chi Minh City.
This is my first 20 years of my life, so
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I've been always there, feel like a
confusing little girl because I keep
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wondering what I really want to achieve in
my life. My family, my parents were not
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so... were poor at that time. In 1987,
most of the families there were poor due
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to the war. We just finished the war and
then the reform of Vietnam. My parents
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been working very hard so that me and my
sister could have a better future. And the
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only motivation that I have in my life
until I was 20: to get a very good job
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somewhere after graduation, so that I can
earn some money, take care of my parents,
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and be able to afford something that I
could never have when I was a kid. So this
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is what I was thinking when I got to 20
years old. I went to school, I studied
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super super hard but I never had really
interested in school and I also don't
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understand so much what I learn and get
out of school. I just know that if I study
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hard I would have a good future. In 2007 I
met Mario Behling who later on became my
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mentor and also a partner later on. Not on
Tinder, but at a free event, a free
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technology event in Hanoi. In 2007 it was
the first time I learned about free
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software. In the same year, I switched
from Windows XP to Ubuntu and started to
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use open source. And then so I started to
involve with different user groups in the
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region, and also contribute small bits,
like localization into some software
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project. At the same time I also learned
how to submit a bug report, make an issue
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to different projects. And by involving in
the open source community I got to meet so
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many interesting people that inspire me.
So I always have very cool conversation
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with people who've been involved in one
project for over 15, 20 years. That really
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inspired me, how people can be so
persistent and continuously work on
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something for so long. And when they talk
about their job, is so positive and
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energetic. Even though it keeps repeating,
but they're very patient and when I joined
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the community it's so good that people
always like very patient and took their
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time to explain to you when you don't
understand something. So two years later
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in 2009, Mario and I decided to found the
FOSS Asia organization. So FOSS Asia, the
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goal of FOSS Asia is to bring together an
inspired community across Asia, a lot of
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different communities to view a better
future with open technologies. Since then
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we have developed so many different
projects with the FOSS Asia communities.
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These are some of the software and also
hardware projects that we've been working
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on. SUSI.AI is an alternative to Alexa or
Google Home, and Pocket Science Lab is our
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newly released open hardware project. You
can find all the projects on Github of
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FOSS Asia actually. Eventyay is an event
solution that's similar to what you have
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here, the[unclear][???], just scheduling
and also ticket selling open source did
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entirely by the FOSS Asia community. We
also organize a lot of events, conferences
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and meet-ups throughout our regions. One
of our biggest events is the FOSS Asia
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Summit, happens every year in March in
Singapore. Throughout the year we also
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have smaller workshops and events in
China, in India, Vietnam, Indonesia,
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Malaysia and many other places. Some of
the highlights of my last 10 years. In
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2010 it was my first time into Europe. It
was so difficult to get a visa to come
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here. I know, for many of you, but it was
a big thing for me to enter Europe for the
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first time. I got invited to the Libre
Graphics meeting. This is the photo taken
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when I was giving a talk. You can see it,
I was super nervous at that time. And the
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next picture, after the talk I went to
dinner with a group of friends, the people
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from the Libre Graphics communities. I was
the only girl but I did not realize that
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until somebody comment on my Facebook, why
you was the only girl in the picture. But
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it was really cool and very welcoming in
the community. 2012 we built a hotel in
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our hometown Can Tho, and we labelled it
the Open Source hotel. You can look up,
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Hotel Xoai is the name of the place. So
basically it's built by the Open Source
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community member. So we set up the
wireless network with OpenWRT. I did
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the entire wiring for the telephone
myself. I did it for three weeks but I was
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very proud of it and we have the
declaration inside the hotel is donated to
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us by the Libre Graphics community, so by
some artists in that community. And in
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this space we hosted a lot of workshops
and we hosted many open source
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contributors in our place. So we have dDebian
developers, we have GIMP contributers, we
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have people from all over the world to
come and stay with us in this space here
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in Vietnam. In the same year I also hosted
the group of artists and designers that I
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met in Brussels in 2010 in Hoh Chi Minh
City. So we did an open source design week
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in Saigon, and surprisingly more than 40%
of the participants are female. So what we
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did in this design week, we showed people
how to make artwork with free tools, with
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free software, and at the end we also made
an exhibition, what kind of work that you
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can do with free software. And 2014 it was
my first time attending the CCC, and this
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is the first person that I met in the
speaker room, who spend several minutes of
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his valuable time to explain to me what is
the difference between free software and
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open source.
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laughter
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Hong Phuc Dang: But I was very happy I was
also a speaker at that time, so we got a
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photo together. 2016 we launch Code Heat
Program, which is an online coding
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programme done by the FOSS Asia community.
So the goal of this program is to help
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young developers and contributors to start
to work in open source software and how to
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become an active contributor to open
source. So we have our FOSS Asia members
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to guide them, so everything happenes on
GitHub, we have GitHub channels where
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people can post questions. And at the end
the winners will win a trip to the FOSS
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Asia Summit and present about their
working experience during the programme.
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2018. So we released our Pocket Science
Lab to the market. So the project been
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going on for the past two years and we
will finally produce them in China and now
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started to distribute them all over the
world. So we have a shop in Japan which
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has sold out in two days. We also
distributed in India, in Singapore, in
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Europe and it's been piloting in school in
Singapore, in India and also in Vietnam.
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So basically it's a small device that
helps you to make science experiments.
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It's an oscilloscope with logic analyzer and
many different functions. We have a
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workshop here as well at the CCC if you
want to find out more. Okay some of my
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approach and lesson learned for the
question about what strategy that you do
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to engage many people in the community and
how to rear the communitiy. So what I
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learned from the past 10 years: The first
thing is to be sincere with whoever you
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meet. That how my reaction in the
community to be sincere with people, and
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empower the people in the community. Just
like when I first joined the community,
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the more responsibility to give to people,
they feel empower and they, it's also
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better to scale up the community.
Motivation; in order to work with people
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and to find the right approach you need to
understand the motivation behind
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individuals and it's really important to
rear the community. And my philosophy is
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it always better by sharing. So we share
our knowledge, that what's the reason we
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are here – we share our resources and we
bring people together. Finally, in the
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FOSS Asia community, I made friends. Their
friendship is important over the years and
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I know that the people I've been working
with or engaged with will be friends for
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life – so that is a good thing about the
free software community. And next year
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2009 will be our 10-year milestone of the
FOSS Asia organization. We have a big
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celebration in Singapore between March 14
and 17. If you happen to be there or you
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plan a trip to Asia you are very welcome
to join us. The website 2019.fossasia.org.
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And here at the CCC we have a group of
FOSS Asia member flew in from Singapore,
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from France, from Spain and also in
Germany. We have a laser cutter here,
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built by a FOSS Asia member in Singapore,
open source laser cutter. The small
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picture here is [???] carrying it and is
at our FOSS Asia assembly if you want to
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check it out. If you want to get in touch
with us, or you want to look for me at the
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end of the talk, you can search on the
navigation app for FOSS Asia and our
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number is a 8575. Thank you.
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applause
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GdB: Thank you very much Hong for that
introduction into FOSS Asia and your work.
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Azam, Sarah, would
you like to go next to present Le RESET?
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Le Reset speaker (left): Okay so we both
come from France. We are part of Le RESET,
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which is a feminist and queer hacker space
and we're going to explain a little bit
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what we are doing, why we're doing it and
how. So our hacker space welcomes actively
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people who usually do not feel safe or
included in many other hacker spaces. So
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mostly queer persons and women, because
most of straight men feel really entitled
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to learn and share what they learn and
teach everything. And on the other side
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you have queer persons and women who have
major imposter syndrome when it comes to
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technology. We observe these things and
also that the solutions to fix all issues
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are also designed by straight men so they
are not adequate with our issues and that
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we have a big lack of transmission in our
communities. So as we were to the geeky
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ones around queers and queer ones around
geeks we did Le RESET to have a space that
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is the intersection of queer and geek
people. So it takes place in a queer bar
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in Paris every Sunday. And I'm really
scared, I'm sorry. We started in 2016 and
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we speak directly to women and queers so
that they feel welcome and included and
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would come to our space. We built a code
of conduct that we may discuss further,
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that we embody so we endorse it and not
just write it somewhere. So our basis are
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feminist ethics based on the "Ethics of
Care" by Joan Tronto. We do workshops for
00:17:14.199 --> 00:17:22.150
beginners every session and we really
insist on the things for beginners. The
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workshops are mainly hosted by queer or
women and we do not treat differently
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infosec, coding, gaming, crafts, care
practice and all the things we do not make
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a hierarchy. We analyzed the board
dynamics with material feminism and
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most of our projects are cyber feminists.
Le Reset speaker (right): So I'm going to
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talk a little more about some projects
that we have at Le Reset, what is it, so I
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took three different examples. The best
example is the crypto bar. So it's
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basically a one on one crypto party with
just one person as they were launched by
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Asher Wolf and those security talks, they
are menu oriented toward cyber harassment
00:18:14.380 --> 00:18:20.890
because women and queer people usually ask
us about security issues when they have
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trouble with cyber harassment. And so we
have identified it to be the main threat
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model for us, and not like the NSA or
something else. Another example of a
00:18:32.130 --> 00:18:38.420
project that we have is "everything about
health reappropriation". So as women and
00:18:38.420 --> 00:18:44.010
queers our health is often in the hands of
doctors that don't explain stuff to us or
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that don't do what we want them to do with
our health because they have norms that
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we're supposed to follow. And so we work
around. We work with transgender people
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around hormones and also with trans people
and women around gynecology. And so we
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have a partnership with women doing self
gynecology workshops. So we create zines
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and we share knowledge and practices about
those and we also have a lab project that
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is inspired by the je ne peine club from
Calafou and also by
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the Open Source estrogen project by Mary
Maggic that was presented in the CCC last
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year [https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9036-ope
n_source_estrogen]. And so the goal of
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this lab project is to take and analyze
our own cervical smear so that we can do
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an our own analysis with it. And the third
project I wanted to talk about was "the
00:19:37.390 --> 00:19:41.130
queer games". So the queer games is an
artistic and political movement that was
00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:45.510
initiated by an Entrepeneur Mattie
Brice. So the idea is that they're using
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game design as a tool to criticize
oppression systems. And so we're doing
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monthly queer games workshops in order to
empower queer people. We empower them
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through rendering our own narratives
visible through video games and also by
00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:04.751
learning skills to make our own video
games, even though most people who come
00:20:04.751 --> 00:20:12.190
don't have any idea of how to code, so we
also learn coding through it.
00:20:12.190 --> 00:20:22.350
GdB: Thank you very much
applause
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GdB: Thank you for that introduction into
your work. I think a lot of points raised
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that we're gonna debate also in a minute.
Em, can I ask you to go next.
00:20:36.292 --> 00:20:40.850
Em O'Sullivan: I didn't have any slides
but I do have some notes and my story is
00:20:40.850 --> 00:20:45.231
maybe a bit different to my other
panelists because I don't come from a
00:20:45.231 --> 00:20:50.920
specifically feminist organization. I live
in Brighton in the UK and our hackerspace
00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:56.310
is called Build Brighton. It started in
2009 so it was a fairly early hackerspace
00:20:56.310 --> 00:21:02.370
in the UK. It grew out of an existing
meetup that was focused on robotics and
00:21:02.370 --> 00:21:06.620
some of the people involved in that group
decided to set up their own hackerspace.
00:21:06.620 --> 00:21:12.630
So it began fairly organically. It was
inspired largely by the early U.S. hacker
00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:18.610
spaces in particular Mitch Altman visited
the robotics meetup when he was in
00:21:18.610 --> 00:21:22.420
Brighton and basically said, "hey you look
like the kind of group who should start a
00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:28.450
hackerspace" and that kind of triggered
the idea to go and set one up. So, it
00:21:28.450 --> 00:21:33.750
followed the same kind of ad hoc kind of
democracy structure. It had some informal
00:21:33.750 --> 00:21:40.170
leaders but things were kind of largely
decided by group consensus. For example
00:21:40.170 --> 00:21:45.390
when we first moved into our own dedicated
space, we spent the first couple of years
00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:50.030
meeting once a week in a coworking space
and then in 2011 had an opportunity to get
00:21:50.030 --> 00:21:53.871
our own workshop and the decision about
whether to do that was put to the entire
00:21:53.871 --> 00:21:57.630
membership around whether we wanted to
take on that responsibility, those extra
00:21:57.630 --> 00:22:01.840
costs and that decision was passed by
consensus and that's kind of how things
00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:07.250
have typically been done. In terms of
activities there's a lot of electronics
00:22:07.250 --> 00:22:12.280
projects typically, especially with it
going out to robotics group. The laser
00:22:12.280 --> 00:22:15.380
cutter has always been really popular and
was one of the first tools that was bought
00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:19.450
by the group. And we've recently had lots
of wood work workers coming in because we
00:22:19.450 --> 00:22:24.770
do have a fairly well-developed wood
working shop. In terms of gender diversity
00:22:24.770 --> 00:22:30.500
is also a fairly typical hackerspace.
There's currently 115 members of which
00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:36.670
around 10 to 15 percent are women or femme
presenting people and the aim of that
00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:40.890
statistic isn't to point out like how low
this representation is in this particular
00:22:40.890 --> 00:22:47.690
space. It's to highlight that this is a
typical number for a hackerspace. For me
00:22:47.690 --> 00:22:53.060
personally, a bit like Hong Phuc said, I'm
used to being in masculine spaces like I
00:22:53.060 --> 00:22:58.940
trained in media production originally
which is very male dominated. Then when I
00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:04.970
went to work in IT it was normal for me to
be at events that were mainly men and I
00:23:04.970 --> 00:23:10.680
suppose I just got used to this and it
became invisible to me. At the time I was
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.720
working for a software development company
in Brighton and the company had two
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:19.750
offices one for the technical team and one
for the rest of the staff. So like admin
00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:25.770
team, production team, HR, finance and so
on. My desk was in the tech room and I
00:23:25.770 --> 00:23:29.520
looked up one day and realized that I was
the only femme presenting person in a room
00:23:29.520 --> 00:23:36.470
of 20 men. It took that to kind of dropped
me back into realizing how weird the
00:23:36.470 --> 00:23:41.820
situation was and I also realized that
"Build Brighton", my hackspace, was a
00:23:41.820 --> 00:23:47.620
similar environments as well. And I became
really interested in why this was
00:23:47.620 --> 00:23:52.710
happening, because hacker spaces they are
theoretically open environments, like our
00:23:52.710 --> 00:23:58.300
space anyone can join. Membership is on a
pay what you can basis from five pounds a
00:23:58.300 --> 00:24:03.790
month. So the financial cost to entry are
very low. But we are still seeing the same
00:24:03.790 --> 00:24:08.860
issues as in other technology environments
and that's women and femme people were
00:24:08.860 --> 00:24:16.430
very underrepresented. I saw this as a
useful opportunity to look at the cultural
00:24:16.430 --> 00:24:21.860
issues that continue to prevent women's
engagement in technology spaces even when
00:24:21.860 --> 00:24:27.460
some of those structural and financial
barriers have been removed. And the reason
00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:31.830
this was really important to me as a topic
was because like for me personally joining
00:24:31.830 --> 00:24:36.960
my hackerspace was an extremely empowering
experience. I didn't have much experience
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:41.700
before with DIY, with hardware, with
working with materials, and joining that
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:46.000
community and having access to those tools
and that knowledge had a huge impact on
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:51.140
how I see the world around me, on my
confidence to fix and adapt things when I
00:24:51.140 --> 00:24:56.160
need to and I really want more people to
have access to that empowerment.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:01.080
Especially people who don't necessarily
have existing experience with technology.
00:25:01.080 --> 00:25:07.770
So in 2016 I began my PhD looking at how
some hacker spaces and maker spaces have
00:25:07.770 --> 00:25:11.880
been more successful than others in
engaging women and femme people. I'm
00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.950
currently still in the data collection
phase of my research, but I visited
00:25:15.950 --> 00:25:20.360
various hacker spaces and maker spaces
around Europe and the US, spoken to lots
00:25:20.360 --> 00:25:25.720
of people from these spaces and seen a
wide range of approaches to dealing with
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:33.360
gender diversity, ranging from acute
hostility towards any suggestion of
00:25:33.360 --> 00:25:37.350
specifically trying to engage women, right
through to spaces that have made this a
00:25:37.350 --> 00:25:42.711
core part of that group culture. So I hope
that range of perspectives can come in
00:25:42.711 --> 00:25:48.190
useful to discussion today. And I'm also
currently putting together a zine with
00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:52.540
contributions from hacker spaces and maker
spaces that have developed inclusive
00:25:52.540 --> 00:25:57.210
practices, not necessarily focused on
gender but also on engaging other
00:25:57.210 --> 00:26:02.150
underrepresented groups like people of
color, people with disabilities, people
00:26:02.150 --> 00:26:07.350
with lower socio economic statuses because
I think it's really important that those
00:26:07.350 --> 00:26:11.510
practices are publicized as widely as
possible so that other spaces can learn
00:26:11.510 --> 00:26:15.400
from them. So if any of you have any
suggestions about spaces that should be
00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:22.450
included in that zine please do email me.
My contact details are on the Fahrplan and
00:26:22.450 --> 00:26:32.890
I would love to hear about any spaces that
you could recommend.
00:26:32.890 --> 00:26:42.550
GdB: Thank you! And last but not least Lena.
Lena Mohr: I'm Lena, I'm one of the three
00:26:42.550 --> 00:26:47.390
founders of "ready to code". We are an
organization based based in Stuttgart in
00:26:47.390 --> 00:26:56.500
the south of Germany. Our story started...
so know first what we do is we inspire
00:26:56.500 --> 00:27:01.220
women and girls to learn how to code and
to work in tech and support each other.
00:27:01.220 --> 00:27:06.821
There are two main reasons why we do what
we do. I think the first one is quite
00:27:06.821 --> 00:27:12.340
obvious that there are not enough women
who work in tech, and the second one is
00:27:12.340 --> 00:27:17.010
more personal because I am a user
experience designer, and part of my
00:27:17.010 --> 00:27:21.440
studies was learning how to code and I
found it extremely difficult because I had
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:27.440
all these biases and pictures in my head
and I just knew that I was going to fail
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:34.270
at coding before I ever wrote my first
line of code. I was not alone with this. I
00:27:34.270 --> 00:27:42.130
saw this and a lot of my friends and a lot
of the girls who studied with me. And the
00:27:42.130 --> 00:27:47.150
good news is that we had to pass the exam
so we sort of had to learn it. and I also
00:27:47.150 --> 00:27:54.030
had really great and really patient
friends who not only taught me to code and
00:27:54.030 --> 00:27:59.809
taught me the facts but also convinced me
that I was able to do that. And the moment
00:27:59.809 --> 00:28:04.630
when you clicked like you said that was a
really empowering moment, because I felt
00:28:04.630 --> 00:28:10.540
like the not only the knowledge opened a
whole new world of opportunities, but also
00:28:10.540 --> 00:28:15.309
the self-confidence that I gained through
that. And that is what we also want to
00:28:15.309 --> 00:28:23.130
share with other women and girls. So what
we do is we run workshops for women and
00:28:23.130 --> 00:28:30.710
for girls and like Le Reset we make sure
that they are for a beginner so everyone
00:28:30.710 --> 00:28:34.610
can participate, and I think we're
probably going to talk about that as well
00:28:34.610 --> 00:28:41.300
a little bit further. And we also have a
networking event that's called cocktails
00:28:41.300 --> 00:28:48.550
and code where women in tech can meet and
connect and share their experiences and we
00:28:48.550 --> 00:28:52.540
organize lightning talks from female
speakers so yeah people who are new to
00:28:52.540 --> 00:28:59.830
tech can come and it's fairly low level
and everyone can participate. And we also
00:28:59.830 --> 00:29:03.910
organize different events. For example a
couple of weeks ago we organized a social
00:29:03.910 --> 00:29:10.180
hackathon on and I think what we do a
little bit different is that one of our
00:29:10.180 --> 00:29:18.290
founders is a guy, a straight cis guy. So
a lot of the volunteers that are working
00:29:18.290 --> 00:29:25.970
for us are also male and we had a lot of
good experiences with this because we
00:29:25.970 --> 00:29:30.011
think it's important to include everyone.
But we talked a little bit before and I
00:29:30.011 --> 00:29:34.350
think we're going to have a discussion
about that afterwards as well, that a lot
00:29:34.350 --> 00:29:41.010
of women who come to us are also looking
for females only space, so they really
00:29:41.010 --> 00:29:46.290
appreciate a safer space where they can
just be around other women.
00:29:46.290 --> 00:29:59.350
GdB: Thank you very much, Lena. So as
you've heard we have very different work
00:29:59.350 --> 00:30:03.920
rounds that say very different rooms of
experiences. And we'd like to just jump
00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.630
right into discussion. We're going to take
about 15, 20 minutes to discuss a little
00:30:07.630 --> 00:30:12.710
bit amongst ourselves before opening and
including all of you in the debate. So
00:30:12.710 --> 00:30:18.490
let's pick up straight the point that you
closed with and I'd like you to join in
00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:24.380
but I think I'll direct the question at
you first. Sometimes we have to, or it
00:30:24.380 --> 00:30:29.721
seems that way, we'd have to be exclusive
in order to increase inclusion or
00:30:29.721 --> 00:30:33.670
fairness. And if I understood you
correctly you've created a space that
00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:39.772
doesn't necessarily exclude anybody but it
doesn't put straight men in the focus. Can
00:30:39.772 --> 00:30:43.480
you explain a little bit exactly how you
try to shape that community that you're
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:48.480
working with and where you're where you
drew the line of inclusion and exclusion
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:55.210
in your approach.
Le Reset speaker (right): So we have a
00:30:55.210 --> 00:30:59.580
code of conduct. Everybody is welcome to
come into hackerspace as long as they
00:30:59.580 --> 00:31:07.030
apply to the code of conduct. So we are
open to everyone but everything that we
00:31:07.030 --> 00:31:12.050
organize is directed to queer people and
women. So our communication is oriented
00:31:12.050 --> 00:31:18.580
towards them. The workshops organized also
by queer people and women. So basically we
00:31:18.580 --> 00:31:21.870
just don't care about straight men.
Gdb: But they can come.
00:31:21.870 --> 00:31:31.864
Le Reset speaker (right): They can come.
(laughter and applause)
00:31:31.864 --> 00:31:32.970
Gdb: Lena you said one of your founders is
00:31:32.970 --> 00:31:38.240
a straight man, so that's something that
you do that you do differently.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:42.500
Lena: We just started a year ago so we are
also still trying our different
00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:48.270
approaches. And I like what you said that,
I think you mentioned that they are
00:31:48.270 --> 00:31:57.250
invited if they want to come but you're
not marketing for them. You saw our logo.
00:31:57.250 --> 00:32:03.720
And in the first workshop that we ran for
kids we said it's only for girls. And the
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:07.620
second one we said we have reserving a
number of seats for girls because we want
00:32:07.620 --> 00:32:13.380
to increase diversity and no boy signed
up. So from now on we're not even putting
00:32:13.380 --> 00:32:19.710
it's only for girls on our flyers but
because it looks so girly no boys
00:32:19.710 --> 00:32:23.820
interested in joining us apparently and I
think that's interesting because usually
00:32:23.820 --> 00:32:29.400
it works the other way around so probably
subconsciously or unconsciously it's
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:37.210
posters or websites look like they're made
for boys or for guys and women don't feel
00:32:37.210 --> 00:32:43.020
attrackted to it. And we do it the other
way around and it works quite well. But
00:32:43.020 --> 00:32:47.610
yeah. But we also have men that are asking
us like "Oh we we also like cocktails and
00:32:47.610 --> 00:32:53.999
code, Why can't we join?" And it's like
yeah of course you can. You're welcome. We
00:32:53.999 --> 00:32:56.740
didn't have any negative experience with
it so far.
00:32:56.740 --> 00:33:01.490
GdB [to Em O'Sullivan]: you're going to be
our academic sounding board at this panel.
00:33:01.490 --> 00:33:05.830
In the research that you've conducted, do
you see certain kinds of trends emerging
00:33:05.830 --> 00:33:13.370
or sort of maybe perhaps as a strength of
certain strategies of those hacker spaces
00:33:13.370 --> 00:33:20.230
or communities or programs that try to
specifically target not straight men but
00:33:20.230 --> 00:33:25.400
other communities. On the question of "how
exclusive do you have to be, to be
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:30.380
inclusive".
Em O'Sullivan: So, I've been to spaces
00:33:30.380 --> 00:33:34.140
that are women only or women and non
binary people only, and they're really
00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:39.890
important for getting over the question of
"is it just that women aren't interested"
00:33:39.890 --> 00:33:43.510
which is something that I've encountered
in a few spaces. It's like well you know
00:33:43.510 --> 00:33:46.670
we're not excluding women they just don't
seem to be interested. They're not coming
00:33:46.670 --> 00:33:50.270
here. And then when you provide a women
only space and women go there, then you
00:33:50.270 --> 00:33:53.390
can point to that and go: Well okay that's
just not true. That must be something
00:33:53.390 --> 00:33:57.940
about these other spaces that isn't
including them. But then the next step is
00:33:57.940 --> 00:34:03.000
how do you get that inclusion to work in
an all gender space. Because, we live in
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.770
an all gender world. And how do you it
take out of those safe spaces and take it
00:34:07.770 --> 00:34:15.899
into other environments and that there
does need to be a specific aim to be
00:34:15.899 --> 00:34:22.220
inclusive. It's interesting that you say
it's like, we don't exclude men. We just
00:34:22.220 --> 00:34:28.961
kind of don't focus stuff on them. And
that seems to be the approach of maker
00:34:28.961 --> 00:34:32.730
spaces, and hacker spaces in general.
Except there's no recognition of that.
00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:35.549
There's that, well, we don't exclude
women. You know, they're just not here.
00:34:35.549 --> 00:34:39.279
Like, they could come here and there's not
the recognition that all of their
00:34:39.279 --> 00:34:43.329
presentation, like all of the their
culture, from the outside looks like it's
00:34:43.329 --> 00:34:46.659
geared towards men. And so of course
that's the kind of people that they
00:34:46.659 --> 00:34:50.519
attract. But yeah, they haven't made that
decision, it's just what they're doing and
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:55.519
there's no recognition of it. So yeah, to
change that there does have to be a
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:59.089
recognition that if you want to attract
people from different groups then you do
00:34:59.089 --> 00:35:03.799
need to reach out and specifically engage
them. it's not going to just happen by
00:35:03.799 --> 00:35:07.280
itself.
GdB: Thank you. Hong, how has it been for
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:13.920
you in the last 10 years of managing FOSS
Asia? Because, there's another level that
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.869
comes in. You do this across different
cultures and across different countries
00:35:17.869 --> 00:35:23.829
within Southeast Asia. How do you find
that it's developed over the last 10
00:35:23.829 --> 00:35:29.680
years, and how much do you have to put an
emphasis on trying to bring in not just
00:35:29.680 --> 00:35:33.489
women, but perhaps also people from
different backgrounds into your community.
00:35:33.489 --> 00:35:39.410
Hong Phuc Dang: So, if you look at
Southeast Asia, and I look at and FOSS
00:35:39.410 --> 00:35:44.960
Asian community we find diverse and
inclusive. It would take forever to talk
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:48.960
about of different cultures from
Singapore, Malaysia. It's also related to
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:55.660
the religions and the culture of each
country. But, could I ask the Le RESET
00:35:55.660 --> 00:36:01.440
hackerspace a question? I was curious. I
kind of have the same opinion with Em. I
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:07.470
was curious, was there any experience in
the past that motivated you to create a
00:36:07.470 --> 00:36:13.740
base that or focus more on women instead
of men. Is there any bad experience, an
00:36:13.740 --> 00:36:20.159
incident that occurred to you?
Le Reset speaker: Yes, of course.
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:23.539
Hong Phuc Dang: Could you share a little
bit about it? Because, I always say I,
00:36:23.539 --> 00:36:28.230
fought it passive, you know that maybe I
was lucky, because in our community I
00:36:28.230 --> 00:36:34.329
haven't experienced that much of a kind of
incident that make me feel that I need a
00:36:34.329 --> 00:36:39.280
space for myself. Because when I joined
the open source community, I feel that
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.670
everyone's very welcome, and also people
don't look at you as who you are. People
00:36:44.670 --> 00:36:47.983
always look at your work and your
contribution to the community. So,
00:36:47.983 --> 00:36:51.140
sometimes you're in a conversation and you
don't even realize that you are with a
00:36:51.140 --> 00:36:56.940
bunch of other people from Europe or men.
You focus on the topic, and the work that
00:36:56.940 --> 00:37:02.384
you do. So I'm curious to learn about the
incident that you had before.
00:37:02.384 --> 00:37:07.270
Le Reset speaker (left): I have a few
examples if you want, but I think it's not
00:37:07.270 --> 00:37:12.091
about what you can do or not, that it's
about coming in the space and you feeling
00:37:12.091 --> 00:37:19.880
that you can come here and stay and be
well welcomed. So, as a woman actually...
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:30.569
I'm sorry I'm a little sick. The people
were asking if I came with my boyfriend,
00:37:30.569 --> 00:37:37.319
where he was. So, they were wondering what
I was doing here, because I was a woman.
00:37:37.319 --> 00:37:42.499
So, sorry, I don't have any boyfriend,
will never have one, but many girlfriends.
00:37:42.499 --> 00:37:53.559
So, no. And also, I was waiting to do lock
picking and waiting in the line to do
00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:57.820
that. When I came to the tools the guy
said: Oh sorry, you have to leave the
00:37:57.820 --> 00:38:04.716
place for the guy, because I was just here
to look not to try. Many things like that.
00:38:04.716 --> 00:38:06.400
Hong Phuc Dang: Did that lock picking
happen here at a congress?
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.319
Le Reset speaker (left): Yeah, I know.
Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so now we know what
00:38:09.319 --> 00:38:14.160
prevent women from joining the tech
community. So maybe it wasn't intentional?
00:38:14.160 --> 00:38:18.200
GdB (to Hong Phuc Dang): So you, I mean I
think it's really interesting what you
00:38:18.200 --> 00:38:21.060
said, when in your community and
experience you have you see the code and
00:38:21.060 --> 00:38:25.770
not the gender. I think a lot of people
here in the room. I'm guessing it came to
00:38:25.770 --> 00:38:28.809
the session but also on the panel have had
really different experiences, but of
00:38:28.809 --> 00:38:33.619
course this is really positive here. Maybe
even a little bit surprising to hear,
00:38:33.619 --> 00:38:40.480
because perhaps that would have been maybe
a stereotypical perception that in some
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:44.559
other societies which are part of
South/Southeast Asia the very traditional
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:50.200
and it's maybe not so typical for women to
be or people of different backgrounds.
00:38:50.200 --> 00:38:52.890
Maybe, like I said not just women but also
people of different educational
00:38:52.890 --> 00:38:55.960
backgrounds of different cultural
backgrounds to be part of this community.
00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:01.589
But of course it's very nice to hear that
you've had a very different experience.
00:39:01.589 --> 00:39:06.480
That's I think a keyword that we've heard
from many of you and you also mentioned
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:11.499
your core values is empowerment and
creating empowerment empowering
00:39:11.499 --> 00:39:17.140
experiences for others. You've already
said a little bit about how you try to do
00:39:17.140 --> 00:39:21.200
that and giving people space to create
their own narratives. Do you want to share
00:39:21.200 --> 00:39:24.000
a little bit more, what have been like
successes for you were you noticed this
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:34.791
has been working for your commu nity.
Lena Mohr: Maybe I could start?
00:39:34.791 --> 00:39:39.440
Le Reset speaker(right): Go on.
Lena Mohr: I think one of the women who
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:44.119
came to our meetup afterwards. She came to
us and she was really happy and she said
00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:49.009
like: "Ok, I have a place where I can be
among my geek friends and talk about geeky
00:39:49.009 --> 00:39:52.930
stuff and I have my feminist friends to
whom I can come and talk about feminist
00:39:52.930 --> 00:39:58.190
stuff and but I never had both." So I have
friends and I think it's also important
00:39:58.190 --> 00:40:01.450
that you mentioned that it wasn't it
probably wasn't intentional, when someone
00:40:01.450 --> 00:40:04.950
asks you like: "Hey where's your
boyfriend?". Maybe it was trying to start
00:40:04.950 --> 00:40:06.940
a conversation, but that doesn't make it
any better.
00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:09.380
Le Reset speaker (left): I'm not sure,
but...
00:40:09.380 --> 00:40:13.589
Lena Mohr: Ok, that's even...
GdB: Yeah, I mean I can also say like I
00:40:13.589 --> 00:40:17.940
have the same experience regularly and
it's an... Even in spaces where I've been
00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:25.500
member for years and that I really love
dearly and I think you know you sort of at
00:40:25.500 --> 00:40:32.020
least me, past me I never try to take
offense, but of course it is offensive and
00:40:32.020 --> 00:40:36.019
this is something we had a quick chat
about your level of tolerance for this.
00:40:36.019 --> 00:40:42.820
The threshold of acceptance is for me at
least becomes less and less and I think we
00:40:42.820 --> 00:40:47.390
had a quick conversation and one of the
keywords was patience. So, when you have
00:40:47.390 --> 00:40:52.869
tried to sort of, yeah, already create
spaces that are different for communities
00:40:52.869 --> 00:40:57.460
like all of ours that are different you
want... You know, you expect more
00:40:57.460 --> 00:41:02.871
basically. Expect people to be better at
this game and things to change faster. So
00:41:02.871 --> 00:41:05.420
I think the sort of level of frustration
that builds up when you find it is not
00:41:05.420 --> 00:41:10.529
changing as you know just as you said in
your talk. It's shocking to hear that that
00:41:10.529 --> 00:41:14.069
level of apprehension of including women
and doing things to actually really
00:41:14.069 --> 00:41:18.920
support women coming in and making sure
all parts of society are equally
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:24.060
represented is still that strong. Do
you... Have you looked into like the "why"
00:41:24.060 --> 00:41:26.650
a little bit in your research.
Em O'Sullivan: Like something that's
00:41:26.650 --> 00:41:32.829
really interesting is that, in the absence
of groups like people with disabilities is
00:41:32.829 --> 00:41:41.680
more readily seen as something that can be
helped by changing the space by
00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:48.729
introducing kind of ramps, wheelchair
access technologies and rearranging the
00:41:48.729 --> 00:41:52.650
space, so that it's more accessible. But
then when it comes to cultural aspects,
00:41:52.650 --> 00:41:56.749
such as including women, that seen as
something that's unchangeable. So spaces
00:41:56.749 --> 00:42:01.460
are often willing to change to be more
diverse, but they have kind of a mental
00:42:01.460 --> 00:42:06.279
block on being able to include people like
women or people of color, who they see as
00:42:06.279 --> 00:42:10.696
more kind of. There's no way that these
groups can come and join us. They're just
00:42:10.696 --> 00:42:14.160
not interested and so like that's a very
unusual thing to see.
00:42:14.160 --> 00:42:20.460
GdB: So you mentioned earlier, that you
have a code of conduct. And... and I think
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:24.290
that's, I'd love to hear like, how did you
develop this code of conduct for your
00:42:24.290 --> 00:42:27.799
community? And is this sort of a living
thing? Did you come up with this in the
00:42:27.799 --> 00:42:31.410
beginning and it's been set like that or
is it something that you revise and how do
00:42:31.410 --> 00:42:35.299
you implement it?
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually it's a
00:42:35.299 --> 00:42:42.519
really simple code of conduct with 10
phrases and sentences and it says not to
00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:48.999
discriminate anybody and to respect
boundaries and things that are making us
00:42:48.999 --> 00:42:57.740
all live together well. That's the
important thing is that we endorse it
00:42:57.740 --> 00:43:08.200
really, so we put it on the walls. We talk
about it and we observe the dynamics into
00:43:08.200 --> 00:43:16.999
the hackerspace. What do people do. How do
they feel we welcome them. We apply ethics
00:43:16.999 --> 00:43:25.729
of care that do the things I was talking
about. We help people, but we do not do
00:43:25.729 --> 00:43:30.809
things on their behalf. We do not speak
for the persons, but we are here to
00:43:30.809 --> 00:43:34.680
support, if they need. That's how it
works.
00:43:34.680 --> 00:43:38.569
GdB: So are there many cases, where you
find, you need to mediate or have you had
00:43:38.569 --> 00:43:42.599
cases where you've had to exclude people
based on your code of conduct?
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:47.940
Le Reset speaker (right): We haven't
excluded many people, but we feel totally
00:43:47.940 --> 00:43:54.190
fine with having to exclude someone, we're
not afraid of it. But usually we try to
00:43:54.190 --> 00:44:00.660
talk to the person before we have to get
them out and remind them of the code of
00:44:00.660 --> 00:44:08.819
conduct. Our code of conduct is something
that we have to apply, but it's also full
00:44:08.819 --> 00:44:14.359
of keywords and so the idea is that every
time we're saying that organizing a
00:44:14.359 --> 00:44:18.050
workshop or doing your conference we talk
about it and we tell people to read it
00:44:18.050 --> 00:44:22.900
before they come. So that they also can
google the words that they don't know, so
00:44:22.900 --> 00:44:28.380
that they come into hackerspace and they
know what it means to actually respect
00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:35.420
somebodies pronouns or things like this.
GdB: So. How would you all balance sort of
00:44:35.420 --> 00:44:40.539
the mission of what your space is about to
do and what your communities are there to
00:44:40.539 --> 00:44:46.320
do in terms of creating safe space for the
people that you have as part of your
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:53.150
community and educating the rest of the
world.
00:44:53.150 --> 00:45:03.900
Hong Phuc Dang: I can say something. So
code of conduct is a good way to ensure
00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:10.050
that safe space for people. And in terms
of inclusiveness, so there, so I think
00:45:10.050 --> 00:45:14.500
that in order to solve this problems at
first, is a good way that we bring people
00:45:14.500 --> 00:45:19.509
together who can talk about the challenges
and incidents; that they had in the past
00:45:19.509 --> 00:45:24.839
so that the people in the audience also
aware that they might not intentionally
00:45:24.839 --> 00:45:29.819
raise this question. But now people aware
of what could be offense do to another
00:45:29.819 --> 00:45:33.359
members. But I think one of the bigger
challenge is that the people in the
00:45:33.359 --> 00:45:40.059
community sometimes people are not aware
of the level the difference of background
00:45:40.059 --> 00:45:45.309
of different people in the community. For
instance, I want to give one example. So,
00:45:45.309 --> 00:45:50.759
when you visit one of the hackersspace in
Singapore. Normally when you come in even
00:45:50.759 --> 00:45:56.160
though this is your first time entered a
hackerspace, nobody would come and talk to
00:45:56.160 --> 00:46:00.239
you, try to introduce to you to the space,
what other equipment is, because they
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:03.249
assumed that you already have the
knowledge. If you enter this, there's got
00:46:03.249 --> 00:46:08.900
to be good you know everything. And
sometime I found a little bit intimidated
00:46:08.900 --> 00:46:14.071
that I did not understand some joke that
make by my male colleagues, because they
00:46:14.071 --> 00:46:19.210
have different kind of knowledge coming
from the west from Europe or America. So
00:46:19.210 --> 00:46:22.700
it's very important that we are aware that
people coming from different backgrounds.
00:46:22.700 --> 00:46:25.920
So something that you think that is so
obvious to you that might not be obvious
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:31.950
to people. And it might raise some kind of
conflict and misunderstanding. Something
00:46:31.950 --> 00:46:36.779
if we are all aware, that piece of
knowledge we have might not be relevant to
00:46:36.779 --> 00:46:45.460
another person and always be aware and be
more flexible, then that could be less
00:46:45.460 --> 00:46:50.580
complex in the community in my opinion.
GdB: So again like I said
00:46:50.580 --> 00:46:56.429
(applause)
GdB: you're free to applaud.
00:46:56.429 --> 00:47:03.799
GdB: How do you try to balance that?
Le Reset speaker (right): We welcome
00:47:03.799 --> 00:47:08.430
everybody that comes into this space.
We're here every Sunday, so we usually
00:47:08.430 --> 00:47:12.630
know who has come before and who hasn't.
And every time we see a new person there
00:47:12.630 --> 00:47:16.990
is always someone who comes and explain
the code of conduct, but also like: what
00:47:16.990 --> 00:47:23.200
is this space, where you can find the
stickers, where is the workshop. So we
00:47:23.200 --> 00:47:26.910
explain everything.
GdB: I think that sounds really nice. I
00:47:26.910 --> 00:47:30.619
think from what you've explained there's a
lot of magic in that very personal
00:47:30.619 --> 00:47:37.119
approach. You know, it's not that you're
like take them into your space when they
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:40.990
come in, but it's like this taking care of
each other and looking out for one
00:47:40.990 --> 00:47:45.130
another, which should be part of
respectful human conduct. No matter what
00:47:45.130 --> 00:47:51.650
kind of human you are. Right. Maybe one
last topic on the panel before we open up
00:47:51.650 --> 00:47:56.390
a little bit or maybe wanted to. I thought
it was really interesting to read on one
00:47:56.390 --> 00:48:02.660
of the little things on your slide. I
really like the one that said, I was writing
00:48:02.660 --> 00:48:07.950
too fast now I can't read my own writing:
"It is just privileged people's choice."?
00:48:07.950 --> 00:48:18.900
So in my experience very often we create
spaces like yours or like community, or
00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:24.339
creating the mind of creating. Bringing in
new people and giving people, who maybe
00:48:24.339 --> 00:48:30.869
haven't had sort of their typical tech
career, a chance to explore and see that
00:48:30.869 --> 00:48:35.059
they can be the creators of technology
themselves. But we end up also creating
00:48:35.059 --> 00:48:40.249
kind of bubbles and usually attracting
people with a certain background, usually
00:48:40.249 --> 00:48:46.009
creating spaces with people. We live in
Europe, we're like, you know, middle class
00:48:46.009 --> 00:48:51.119
white communities. And that's also,
perhaps, not the level of playing fields,
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:54.569
when it comes to creating inclusive
technology. Is that something that you
00:48:54.569 --> 00:48:58.530
address in your spaces? I'm not looking at
you specifically because it's a little bit
00:48:58.530 --> 00:49:03.770
of a different intercultural setting that
you have with FOSS Asia. But how does
00:49:03.770 --> 00:49:07.960
that come into play, when we talk about
diversity in your experiences?
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:15.339
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually we are
located in a queer bar. So the people that
00:49:15.339 --> 00:49:23.719
are used to come to this bar to party and
date - they also come on Sundays, so we
00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:31.420
have people that would never enter a
hacker space, you know, in other times. So we
00:49:31.420 --> 00:49:42.920
have, actually, met many women, many trans
people and queer people. One time we had
00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:47.619
this girl, who never touched a computer.
We have people who have never played video
00:49:47.619 --> 00:49:54.870
games and so on. So we have really diverse
public.
00:49:54.870 --> 00:49:57.550
GdB: I think that's also interesting as
that was mentioned before the setting of
00:49:57.550 --> 00:50:01.499
where your space actually is, which is a
really important fact of how to make
00:50:01.499 --> 00:50:06.840
spaces accessible to different communities
as well. How's that for the space that you
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:09.650
have out there?
Em: So this is such a tricky question and
00:50:09.650 --> 00:50:14.260
particularly with the volunteer one
spaces. You have a limited amount of time
00:50:14.260 --> 00:50:19.660
and energy and do you spend that on
educating people, or do you spend it on
00:50:19.660 --> 00:50:26.239
engaging with people, who can use your
resources. And I lean towards the
00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:31.650
engagement. I feel that it's important to
kind of get people in and to share what we
00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:36.839
already have with other groups. There are
resources out there, where people can
00:50:36.839 --> 00:50:41.299
educate themselves - like people in
technology communities, like very
00:50:41.299 --> 00:50:45.349
intelligent people, like they are more
than capable of kind of finding other
00:50:45.349 --> 00:50:52.950
resources and educating themselves. And if
the group has the capacity, for example,
00:50:52.950 --> 00:50:58.650
to run workshops around specific issues,
around consents, around kind of
00:50:58.650 --> 00:51:03.239
introductions to feminism and other topics
- then that's great. And that can be a
00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:09.009
great way of educating our own community
and also taking those ideas into the
00:51:09.009 --> 00:51:16.249
outside community. But I think if it
was... if time was limited then I would
00:51:16.249 --> 00:51:21.330
definitely want to dedicate more to
engagement rather than educating people
00:51:21.330 --> 00:51:25.529
who are capable of educating themselves.
Le Reset speaker (right): About that
00:51:25.529 --> 00:51:29.930
education. Our hackerspace has been
invited to give feminism 101 talks
00:51:29.930 --> 00:51:36.829
like a lot. And so we answered yes to
those invitation and then we did not do
00:51:36.829 --> 00:51:40.940
feminism 101, because we believe
that there has been enough talks about
00:51:40.940 --> 00:51:45.359
feminism 101 already and there is
plenty of things available on the
00:51:45.359 --> 00:51:53.920
Internet. So we make usually talks about
ethics of care or cyber feminism. And
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:59.969
every time we go somewhere we have a wiki
page about it with all the links about
00:51:59.969 --> 00:52:07.730
four lines definition on Wikipedia or 40
pages PDF that you can download, or
00:52:07.730 --> 00:52:12.270
podcasts, so all the feminism 101
and all the education has already been
00:52:12.270 --> 00:52:17.440
done. So we are making sure that it's
accessible and then we are moving on,
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:21.650
because as you said we don't have this
energy to do again and again what other
00:52:21.650 --> 00:52:32.209
have done before us.
applause
00:52:32.209 --> 00:52:35.799
Lena: I think you've mentioned it already.
And I think you're also working
00:52:35.799 --> 00:52:41.329
voluntarily or a lot of volunteers come
and so, do they have the time and energy?
00:52:41.329 --> 00:52:46.589
As for me it's also sometimes... I'm just
not in the mood to explain everything
00:52:46.589 --> 00:52:53.140
again, like the really 101 stuff.
But other times, when I feel like someone
00:52:53.140 --> 00:52:58.299
is really curious and really wants to
learn something, and is respectful, and is
00:52:58.299 --> 00:53:06.079
not trying to provoke a discussion just to
have a discussion - because then, yeah, I
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:10.190
don't know... With some persons I feel
like: okay, for him it might be a fun
00:53:10.190 --> 00:53:13.920
discussion just to, I don't know, just to
test the borders and see how far you can
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:19.310
go. But for me it's like: okay I'm talking
if I have the right to be here as a woman
00:53:19.310 --> 00:53:22.690
and I don't always feel like I want to
discuss that.
00:53:22.690 --> 00:53:28.969
GdB: Your patience level is going down as
well. Hong Phuc, how is it for you, how do
00:53:28.969 --> 00:53:33.880
you try to engage people in open source
communities that perhaps wouldn't normally
00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:42.219
walk into a hackerspace? Or don't yet know
about the work that you do.
00:53:42.219 --> 00:53:53.569
Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So I found FOSS
Asia. And then for me it was quite lucky,
00:53:53.569 --> 00:53:59.239
because the founder of the organization is
a female. So it also help make other
00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:04.250
people feel more comfortable to engage
with the open source community. But I
00:54:04.250 --> 00:54:14.359
think as Em and Lena also said that the
number of women, who work in the tech
00:54:14.359 --> 00:54:23.390
community, is very small. And I think it's
important to understand that when you talk
00:54:23.390 --> 00:54:26.630
about technology - it's not only about
coding, because there are so many
00:54:26.630 --> 00:54:33.089
different responsibilities and a
possibility that you could engage the
00:54:33.089 --> 00:54:39.339
woman or other community members in the
community. So it's important to have the
00:54:39.339 --> 00:54:44.109
guide lines to help people, a lot of good
documentation. To show people that by
00:54:44.109 --> 00:54:49.619
joining the community the first step you
did not have to fix a bug or write a line of
00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:53.469
code in order to join the community. You
can do a translation, you can do design,
00:54:53.469 --> 00:54:59.380
localization - many things that any single
one of us can be involved in, can
00:54:59.380 --> 00:55:06.239
contribute as our space. So I think that
is one step to lower the barriers to enter
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:09.369
the community.
GdB:Thank you.
00:55:09.369 --> 00:55:16.309
applause
GdB: I'd like to start opening up the
00:55:16.309 --> 00:55:20.960
questions and comments. We have I think
two microphones here in the center of the
00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:29.569
room and... you're first.
Mic: Hello. First of all thank you girls
00:55:29.569 --> 00:55:34.200
very much for this session. I kind of
relate to that, we're so to say from the
00:55:34.200 --> 00:55:42.680
same club. I came from Estonia and there
I'm the organizer of the conference women
00:55:42.680 --> 00:55:50.509
in cybersecurity and also head of Google
women tech makers in Estonia. And I can
00:55:50.509 --> 00:55:55.880
rely to a lot of things, which you have
mentioned. But what I am really interested
00:55:55.880 --> 00:56:03.069
because you're from different countries
is... Ms Dong has answered this question
00:56:03.069 --> 00:56:09.229
partially, but I'm interested in other
answers. How do you actually attract more
00:56:09.229 --> 00:56:14.039
women into IT? Not from the marketing
perspective, but from the perspective for
00:56:14.039 --> 00:56:22.069
your mission of your hacker space or your
community. And how do you make those
00:56:22.069 --> 00:56:26.720
people stay and come to the events or, if
not come to the events, how do you make
00:56:26.720 --> 00:56:33.150
them thinking of that and continue
studying? Yeah. And the success story that
00:56:33.150 --> 00:56:38.420
is something what we all would be really
interested in hearing. Because, for
00:56:38.420 --> 00:56:43.359
example, from Ms. Dong's story we can see
the open source projects I guess still a
00:56:43.359 --> 00:56:48.160
lot of girls might have been involved
there; and the hotel and other projects.
00:56:48.160 --> 00:56:52.289
But what about the Europe? Tell us, that's
very curious. Thank you.
00:56:52.289 --> 00:56:57.329
GdB: Thank you very much. So we collect a
couple and then go around or how would you
00:56:57.329 --> 00:57:01.829
like to do it?
Mic: I can remind the questions if needed.
00:57:01.829 --> 00:57:08.240
How do you attract, how do you keep people
and how do you... the success stories.
00:57:08.240 --> 00:57:13.180
GdB: Thank you. So let's do that. Do you
have your community, is it very
00:57:13.180 --> 00:57:16.910
fluctuating? Or do you have a kind of
stable group of people? Do you ever have a
00:57:16.910 --> 00:57:19.980
problem of connecting them back to your
space?
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:26.779
Mic: Just before we start from the answer
for ladies - there is something else I
00:57:26.779 --> 00:57:28.960
wanted to mention. I also come not from
a....
00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:33.059
GdB: There is a long queue behind you, and
we've already collected a couple of
00:57:33.059 --> 00:57:34.059
questions, so maybe just one more
sentence.
00:57:34.059 --> 00:57:37.589
Mic: Of course. Yeah. Thank you... No,
then go ahead for the answer.
00:57:37.589 --> 00:57:43.540
GdB: Okay. Thank you. How long time is
your community, how much does it
00:57:43.540 --> 00:57:47.430
fluctuate, how do you sort of keep people?
Le Reset speaker (right): We have people
00:57:47.430 --> 00:57:52.819
that come like every Sunday and we have
people, who come just for one workshop,
00:57:52.819 --> 00:57:57.920
because they've been interested in that
topic. What we do to attract people is
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:04.089
that every Sunday we have a workshop, at
least one workshops, so people are usually
00:58:04.089 --> 00:58:09.069
interested in the topic or just interested
in meeting new people. But they always
00:58:09.069 --> 00:58:13.799
know that they won't just stand there and
have nobody to talk to. There is a
00:58:13.799 --> 00:58:19.749
workshop, like they have a purpose for
being here. And because the topics are
00:58:19.749 --> 00:58:25.940
always oriented towards women and queer we
don't have any issue attracting women and
00:58:25.940 --> 00:58:30.640
queers in the hackerspace. We've never had
a majority of straight men in the
00:58:30.640 --> 00:58:36.589
hackerspace that has never happened.
GdB: Thank you. So Em, and your
00:58:36.589 --> 00:58:40.029
experience?
Em: Well, I mean it's a huge question how
00:58:40.029 --> 00:58:46.890
do you attract women into IT and retain
shortthem. Just to keep my answer fairly sure:
00:58:46.890 --> 00:58:53.279
one particular tip I have is to get a bit
academic for a second, kind of focus on
00:58:53.279 --> 00:58:57.309
developing like the social bonds within
your community rather than necessarily the
00:58:57.309 --> 00:59:02.569
tech aspects. Like when people have
friends and people they care about in this
00:59:02.569 --> 00:59:07.959
community - they're much more likely to
join it and want to stay there and to get
00:59:07.959 --> 00:59:14.519
more out of it. So sometimes focusing on
things that seem quite tangential like
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:18.980
socializing and people spending time
together, like outside of the physical
00:59:18.980 --> 00:59:24.380
space and kind of doing like fun non tech
things together, like can actually do that
00:59:24.380 --> 00:59:27.369
job of bringing more women than and femme
people in and helping them to feel
00:59:27.369 --> 00:59:31.920
comfortable and welcome there.
GdB: I think there's a challenge maybe the
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:37.759
other way around too. In my experience
it's for many people spaces, like the ones
00:59:37.759 --> 00:59:43.440
that you create, become a home and so sort
of keeping people, having people want to
00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:48.589
be part of that home is not so hard. But
making sure that you remain open for new
00:59:48.589 --> 00:59:53.440
people to sort of join that family and
feel as equally welcome can sometimes be
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:59.739
an even bigger challenge than attracting
people and keeping them in the beginning.
00:59:59.739 --> 01:00:04.930
Next question.
Mic: So my question will mostly be related
01:00:04.930 --> 01:00:10.709
to this mergery of the feminist hacker
spaces and the male hacker spaces. So I
01:00:10.709 --> 01:00:17.690
see that you are making spaces for women
and for a queer to get creative, but
01:00:17.690 --> 01:00:21.599
making these separate from other hacker
spaces in a bit of an isolation and I
01:00:21.599 --> 01:00:29.269
guess this would be a next step to merge
these kind of societies. So from a male
01:00:29.269 --> 01:00:33.539
perspective it's sometimes hard to
understand what female don't find
01:00:33.539 --> 01:00:40.770
attractive or find distracting about
joining male societies, because feminist
01:00:40.770 --> 01:00:48.410
activism usually do not target male to
express what the problem is. So what do
01:00:48.410 --> 01:00:54.680
you think that could be done towards this
mergery? So to make women try to get
01:00:54.680 --> 01:01:04.470
involved in male hacker spaces and to make
men more acceptive to female. So this
01:01:04.470 --> 01:01:11.509
mergery to get involved together. I hope
my question was on this...
01:01:11.509 --> 01:01:17.660
laughing
GdB: You can all feel free
01:01:17.660 --> 01:01:26.886
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't think
our goal is to merge our hacker spaces. We
01:01:26.886 --> 01:01:30.420
are creating hacker spaces around our
issues, if you want to come you're
01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:35.789
welcome. But what you will find here is
things that concerns us. But of course
01:01:35.789 --> 01:01:43.730
you're welcome. And...
applause
01:01:43.730 --> 01:01:46.160
Le Reset speaker (right): We don't have
any interest in your issues so we're not
01:01:46.160 --> 01:01:50.169
coming to your hacker spaces. But...
applause
01:01:50.169 --> 01:01:57.160
Mic: Yeah. I understand this. And I don't
think that what you do is wrong. I just
01:01:57.160 --> 01:02:01.320
think that this is a sort of isolation
between two different kinds of creative
01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:03.320
energy.
GdB: Let's...
01:02:03.320 --> 01:02:07.079
Le Reset speaker (right): I think you've
been in isolation much more longer than
01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:09.079
us.
applause
01:02:09.079 --> 01:02:11.449
Mic: I mean probably separation, not
isolation.
01:02:11.449 --> 01:02:17.579
GdB: Let's.. Again I'm gonna say, there
are many people queuing behind you, so we
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:20.239
do want to get in a conversation with
everyone, but we want to give everybody
01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:26.119
the chance to speak as well. I think I'm
gonna rephrase your question if I may,
01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:31.759
when it comes to the actual creation of
technology. Because I think that... let's
01:02:31.759 --> 01:02:34.119
see if there are two separate things or
not: the one thing is that you have a
01:02:34.119 --> 01:02:37.640
community and you have a space for that
community, and you want to prioritize the
01:02:37.640 --> 01:02:42.489
issues of your community. The other
question is when we create technology and
01:02:42.489 --> 01:02:45.999
we create technology for the general
public. How do we ensure that that
01:02:45.999 --> 01:02:51.529
technology is created by the public as in
all members of that public and then
01:02:51.529 --> 01:02:56.180
reflects all of our values equally.
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe
01:02:56.180 --> 01:02:58.180
in the general public.
GdB: Sorry?
01:02:58.180 --> 01:03:00.949
Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe
in the general public.
01:03:00.949 --> 01:03:09.069
applause
Hong Phuc Dang: So I could answer your
01:03:09.069 --> 01:03:14.240
question. I also don't want to give
comment about if we merging the two
01:03:14.240 --> 01:03:19.089
groups. But if you want to make your
space, any hacker space, more welcome to
01:03:19.089 --> 01:03:23.769
woman or any member, the first thing: just
like in a normal context - if you have a
01:03:23.769 --> 01:03:27.930
new guest coming to your home, the first
thing is that to show the guest around.
01:03:27.930 --> 01:03:35.169
Like to interact with a person and to be
patient, and show them what they can do.
01:03:35.169 --> 01:03:38.650
And also one thing that I mentioned
earlier: because people have different
01:03:38.650 --> 01:03:42.469
background knowledge so it's more
important that you find out what is their
01:03:42.469 --> 01:03:47.859
motivation, to get to know the people
better. So make this more like the women
01:03:47.859 --> 01:03:52.630
feel more comfortable to come you to your
space instead of asking them to merge
01:03:52.630 --> 01:03:56.390
together with another space. Just create a
more friendly environment in your space.
01:03:56.390 --> 01:04:00.099
By just approaching the people, the
newcomers and welcome them.
01:04:00.099 --> 01:04:07.079
applause
GdB: Next person please.
01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:15.730
Mic: So I have some more of experience to
share than the question. I organize events
01:04:15.730 --> 01:04:24.740
for geeks and they are very male heavy,
let's say. And what I found is when it
01:04:24.740 --> 01:04:32.150
comes to disabled people and that the
community is more likely to actually
01:04:32.150 --> 01:04:37.489
change is because then they change
environment and they don't have to change
01:04:37.489 --> 01:04:39.489
themselves.
applause
01:04:39.489 --> 01:04:44.819
Mic: The huge problem usually is that the
male populated hacker space are generally
01:04:44.819 --> 01:04:54.210
community in general, feel that when they
have to open to female presence or a gay
01:04:54.210 --> 01:05:00.289
presence, etc. they have to change their
own behavior. And that it's not something
01:05:00.289 --> 01:05:04.630
they are willing to do. Sadly enough.
Thanks.
01:05:04.630 --> 01:05:10.179
GdB: Thank you. Was that question in there
you just wanted to share. Okay good. Thank
01:05:10.179 --> 01:05:12.709
you. There's an online question we'd like
to take next please.
01:05:12.709 --> 01:05:16.680
Signal Angel: The question was answered.
GdB: Oh...
01:05:16.680 --> 01:05:20.604
laughing
GdB: Okay then. In that case.
01:05:20.604 --> 01:05:25.589
Mic: Hello. Thank you. First of all thank
you for all of your great work. I just
01:05:25.589 --> 01:05:29.940
want to have a question about something
that maybe a little bit missed in this
01:05:29.940 --> 01:05:34.309
conversation. And so we talked about all
of the communities and the hacker spaces
01:05:34.309 --> 01:05:41.480
that focused on a woman and non binaries.
But imagine a scenario that there is a
01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:47.170
company or there's like a startup and
there is not much diversity and we want to
01:05:47.170 --> 01:05:55.140
improve like representation of people of
marginalized group or anyway. How
01:05:55.140 --> 01:06:00.569
we can achieve that? There are lots of
suggestions like hire people who are like
01:06:00.569 --> 01:06:07.569
visible to others, to be very open about
this and try to attract more people. But
01:06:07.569 --> 01:06:13.359
is there any sort of way to talk to get
these successful stories about to improve
01:06:13.359 --> 01:06:19.930
the diversity of companies and startups
and other types of communities?
01:06:19.930 --> 01:06:28.470
GdB: Thank you.
Lena: I think it's often you have biases
01:06:28.470 --> 01:06:34.209
sometimes in the hiring process, so maybe
you go through different CVs of different
01:06:34.209 --> 01:06:39.959
persons and then you... I only know
examples from Germany, but I guess it's
01:06:39.959 --> 01:06:45.569
the same everywhere. If you read a CV with
a name that sounds foreign to you, you
01:06:45.569 --> 01:06:49.700
might put it to the side or might
automatically think: okay maybe this
01:06:49.700 --> 01:06:58.900
person is not equally capable. Even if the
skills are the same. And also in your job
01:06:58.900 --> 01:07:04.180
descriptions you can make sure that it's
more inclusive so you don't say like: okay
01:07:04.180 --> 01:07:12.890
the perfect person "he" should have this
and that's, put "he and she". And I think
01:07:12.890 --> 01:07:18.829
a lot of times it's about really really
subtle changes and small things. And like
01:07:18.829 --> 01:07:21.369
you said it's a change of the mindset. So
it's...
01:07:21.369 --> 01:07:24.771
GdB: Yeah, please.
Le Reset speaker (left): Actually, you
01:07:24.771 --> 01:07:30.239
know, in Le Reset we do not value success
stories at all. We don't care. We value
01:07:30.239 --> 01:07:35.630
partnership. Partnership and being well
together, and that's what works actually.
01:07:35.630 --> 01:07:41.920
We do many things, but not by pushing
things. To be a woman or queer, or
01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:47.709
whatever... we do what we want to do, what
we like and that works. That's just that.
01:07:47.709 --> 01:07:50.189
Mic: Thank you.
GdB: Thank you.
01:07:50.189 --> 01:07:55.819
applause
GdB: Maybe we can exchange after this. Oh
01:07:55.819 --> 01:07:59.779
there's a lot of great written walks
already out there that give advice to
01:07:59.779 --> 01:08:03.819
companies and startups that want be more
inclusive. But like the the simplest thing
01:08:03.819 --> 01:08:08.599
if, like you said it yourself, if you want
to be inclusive - have an inclusive team.
01:08:08.599 --> 01:08:14.279
You cannot have an inclusive or diverse
startup if your team are all men and the
01:08:14.279 --> 01:08:18.820
excuse that you didn't find the right
people out there doesn't really go. Either
01:08:18.820 --> 01:08:22.580
because, like you said, then maybe you're
looking the wrong way. And if you
01:08:22.580 --> 01:08:26.350
seriously can't find anybody with a
skillset you're looking for - then help
01:08:26.350 --> 01:08:31.500
people build that skillset. So there are
always ways to actually do that in your
01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:40.440
team. Please.
Mic: Hi. Six of you proposed talks. We got
01:08:40.440 --> 01:08:45.600
one talk. Yes you are six awesome women.
It's an awesome topic. We've got an
01:08:45.600 --> 01:08:50.569
audience of roughly 50/50. It's one of the
most balanced audiences I've seen that
01:08:50.569 --> 01:08:55.870
this entire event, but I'm pretty certain
that the men in here are majority male
01:08:55.870 --> 01:09:01.170
allies. The women you're preaching to the
perverted here, why is it that we have
01:09:01.170 --> 01:09:07.650
allowed ourselves to be gerrymandered in
this way. Why do we have only one session.
01:09:07.650 --> 01:09:22.620
Why do we not have six sessions.
applause
01:09:22.620 --> 01:09:31.600
Mic: Adams, Borg, Clark, Dijkstra. The
meeting rooms are named after men! Women
01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:36.520
are 50/50 of the population. Why are we
allowing this to happen. I appreciate. I'm
01:09:36.520 --> 01:09:40.447
looking you in the eye and I'm guilty
here of preaching to perverted too. But
01:09:40.447 --> 01:09:45.060
why are we allowing it. Why is it
happening. It's 2018. It's soon to be
01:09:45.060 --> 01:09:57.960
2019. We deserve better.
applause
01:09:57.960 --> 01:10:02.959
Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. Thank you very
much for your concern. But I think that...
01:10:02.959 --> 01:10:06.590
don't you think that is good to bring
people together because, of course like we
01:10:06.590 --> 01:10:11.980
can have separate section, but it also
very good to have everyone come together
01:10:11.980 --> 01:10:14.980
and share their opinions so we can have a
conversation, in which we can learn for
01:10:14.980 --> 01:10:19.240
each other. So again that the congress is
very busy. Not everyone can come to every
01:10:19.240 --> 01:10:24.400
single talk. Maybe we'll not be able to
attend always our friends who are the
01:10:24.400 --> 01:10:28.350
panelists here. But it's good that we can
come all together. So are always pro and
01:10:28.350 --> 01:10:31.710
con. But thank you very much for your
concern.
01:10:31.710 --> 01:10:34.480
applause
GdB: We have exactly time for one last
01:10:34.480 --> 01:10:37.210
question/intervention and that shall be
you.
01:10:37.210 --> 01:10:42.730
Mic: Thank you. Thank you for the talk and
thank you for this opportunity. I'm
01:10:42.730 --> 01:10:49.100
probably in the category of a straight
male engineer. But I also more or less...
01:10:49.100 --> 01:10:55.290
but I also have, I'm running a coworking
space in Copenhagen and I'm specifically
01:10:55.290 --> 01:11:00.620
focusing on making it inclusive. So I'll
be trying to find an information and tips
01:11:00.620 --> 01:11:08.860
on how to do that. But I have two other
questions then. What would be your top
01:11:08.860 --> 01:11:17.340
three action points on ending the digital
gender divide? It's a big topic, I know.
01:11:17.340 --> 01:11:21.400
laughing
GdB: There's a small question for the end
01:11:21.400 --> 01:11:22.990
of session.
Mic: Yeah.
01:11:22.990 --> 01:11:26.120
GdB: And you had a second one even.
Mic: Yeah. The second one was...
01:11:26.120 --> 01:11:30.120
laughing
Mic: I guess that's, I mean, I really see
01:11:30.120 --> 01:11:36.370
the points being raised about designing. I
mean just down to the level of design:
01:11:36.370 --> 01:11:40.730
designing a website targeted to a male
audience versus targeted to a female
01:11:40.730 --> 01:12:02.230
audience. And the second question was...
What was that... The FOSS Asia. In Asia I
01:12:02.230 --> 01:12:08.440
read an article lately from after access
magazine about Internet usage throughout
01:12:08.440 --> 01:12:14.730
the global south. And it's thus in Asia
you have like 20 percent of the population
01:12:14.730 --> 01:12:20.960
on the Internet. Do you see that as a
problem? And what do you think could be
01:12:20.960 --> 01:12:23.980
done about it?
GdB: Okay so how do we close the digital
01:12:23.980 --> 01:12:30.480
divide as such and how to close the gender
divide. Specifically. Okay. Thank you.
01:12:30.480 --> 01:12:36.270
Hong Phuc Dang: And I don't want to
announce that I am suggested we have a
01:12:36.270 --> 01:12:42.470
after panel discussion, so we hosted a
follow up discussion at the FOSS Asia
01:12:42.470 --> 01:12:45.890
assembly after this. If you have more
questions and you want to continue the
01:12:45.890 --> 01:12:53.150
conversation we can meet there at 8:15?
GdB: 8:15 to 9:15. We're not dodging your
01:12:53.150 --> 01:12:59.500
question or we're just going to move it to
that meetup. I hope that's okay. As we
01:12:59.500 --> 01:13:02.530
have run over time. But I would like to end
maybe with a little bit of a closing
01:13:02.530 --> 01:13:08.941
round, because I think this came out of a
number of statements that you made, on
01:13:08.941 --> 01:13:14.700
your specific and of course work as a
leader of the open source community, which
01:13:14.700 --> 01:13:18.940
is on shared resources. So you mentioned
that a lot of times you're putting your
01:13:18.940 --> 01:13:23.500
resources out there and they're out there
for other people to share and learn from.
01:13:23.500 --> 01:13:28.460
I'd be interested and a little bit of
closing round of either recommendations,
01:13:28.460 --> 01:13:32.770
reading recommendations, places to go look
for further information, maybe places
01:13:32.770 --> 01:13:36.480
where you can be publishing your research.
But although the question of connecting
01:13:36.480 --> 01:13:40.060
like how do we strengthen each other's
work. Not just by coming together at
01:13:40.060 --> 01:13:44.580
conferences like this but by making our
knowledge open and sharing it and perhaps
01:13:44.580 --> 01:13:48.980
also exchanging experiences with one
another. So if maybe you want to leave
01:13:48.980 --> 01:13:53.630
with an idea or a recommendation, or a
point of inspiration, or question on that
01:13:53.630 --> 01:13:56.900
issue. Let's do a quick round. You want to
start?
01:13:56.900 --> 01:14:02.190
Em: So we're quite lucky in the UK that we
have the UK Hackspace Foundation which is
01:14:02.190 --> 01:14:07.460
a kind of Umbrella group for the [not
understandable] hackerspaces in the UK and
01:14:07.460 --> 01:14:12.500
these kind of organisations can be great
for raising discussions about these
01:14:12.500 --> 01:14:17.920
topics. I'm really pushing to have more of
focus on inclusivity and diversity in the
01:14:17.920 --> 01:14:21.270
UK Hackspace Foundation at the moment and
that can be a way of kind of funnelling
01:14:21.270 --> 01:14:25.040
best practices out through all of the
member organizations.
01:14:25.040 --> 01:14:29.900
GdB: Thank you.
Lena: I think for us it's we really focus
01:14:29.900 --> 01:14:35.330
on, like you mentioned as well, the
personal connection. So yeah we would of
01:14:35.330 --> 01:14:38.250
course prefer that you visit us for
coctails and code, and I think there are a
01:14:38.250 --> 01:14:46.001
lot of almost.. I think in the bigger
cities you will find of feminist or women
01:14:46.001 --> 01:14:51.100
only or women and non binary people only
spaces. And if there is none, maybe then
01:14:51.100 --> 01:14:55.420
you should found one. Because I think it's
really important and I think it happens a
01:14:55.420 --> 01:14:59.030
lot through personal connections.
GdB: Thank you, Lena.
01:14:59.030 --> 01:15:03.080
Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So it is something
you all are welcome at our open source
01:15:03.080 --> 01:15:08.580
hotel in Vietnam now if you ever want to
visit and welcome at any FOSS Asia events.
01:15:08.580 --> 01:15:16.150
At the same time I think that we could
share our best practices and the
01:15:16.150 --> 01:15:20.270
successful story on our website. So
whatever the FOSS Asia developed and what
01:15:20.270 --> 01:15:23.980
we do we publish everything. I think that
is a good way to share resources with
01:15:23.980 --> 01:15:29.260
other communities. And a panel discussion
is always good to learn and to continue
01:15:29.260 --> 01:15:32.190
the conversation.
GdB: It's definitely good moment with you
01:15:32.190 --> 01:15:35.190
guys. Sarah.
Le Reset speaker (right): There is only
01:15:35.190 --> 01:15:39.170
one thing to do is to go to our Wiki. We
have all the resources that you need, in
01:15:39.170 --> 01:15:41.170
French.
laughing
01:15:41.170 --> 01:15:50.490
Hong Phug Dang: Our website is in English
laughingapplause
01:15:50.490 --> 01:15:55.540
Le Reset speaker (right): So yeah, we will
try. As after this conference and this as
01:15:55.540 --> 01:16:00.020
I say we will try to put the video on our
Wiki with a page with all the references
01:16:00.020 --> 01:16:04.450
as we do usually in French and so we will
do it in English this time. So you should
01:16:04.450 --> 01:16:11.400
find it in a few days on our Wiki which is
Wiki.LeReset.org.
01:16:11.400 --> 01:16:15.750
GdB: Excellent.
applause
01:16:15.750 --> 01:16:20.210
GdB: I would like to thank you all for
hanging in such great ideas for this event
01:16:20.210 --> 01:16:24.740
for sitting on this panel and sharing your
thoughts and experiences. Thank you Azam.
01:16:24.740 --> 01:16:28.789
Thank you Sarah. Thank you Hong. Thank you
Lena. Thank you Em. For being part of the
01:16:28.789 --> 01:16:33.360
session. Thank you all for attending and
your inputs and ideas as well. And let's
01:16:33.360 --> 01:16:36.120
say a big thank you to the stage host and
the translators for doing a wonderful job
01:16:36.120 --> 01:16:37.660
as well.
01:16:37.660 --> 01:16:40.913
applause
01:16:40.913 --> 01:16:42.920
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