The future of storytelling

Cyndi Stivers: So,
the future of storytelling.

Before we do the future,

let's talk about what is never
going to change about storytelling.

Shonda Rhimes: What's never
going to change.

Obviously, I think good stories
are never going to change,

the need for people to gather together
and exchange their stories

and to talk about the things
that feel universal,

the idea that we all feel
a compelling need to watch stories,

to tell stories, to share stories,

sort of the gathering around the campfire
to discuss the things that tell

each one of us that we
are not alone in the world.

Those things to me
are never going to change.

Like, that essence of storytelling
is never going to change.

CS: Okay. In preparation
for this conversation,

I checked in with Susan Lyne,

who was running ABC Entertainment

when you were working
on "Grey's Anatomy"--

SR: Yes.

CS: -- and she said that there was
this indelible memory she had

of your casting process,

where without discussing it
with any of the executives,

you got people coming in
to read for your scripts,

and every one of them
was at the full range of humanity,

you did not type anyone in any way,

and that it was completely surprising.

So she said, in addition
to retraining the studio executives,

you also, she feels,

and I think this is, I agree,

retrained the expectations
of the American TV audience.

So what else does the audience
not yet realize that it needs

SR: What else does it not yet realize?

Well, I mean, I don't think
we're anywhere near there yet.

I mean, we're still in a place in which

we're far, far behind what looks
like the real world in actuality.

Like, I wasn't bringing in
a bunch of actors

who looked very different from one another

simply because I was
trying to make a point,

and I wasn't trying
to do anything special.

It never occurred to me that that
was new, different, or weird.

I just brought in actors because
I thought they were interesting,

and to me, the idea that it
was completely surprising to everybody,

I didn't know that for a while.

I just thought, these are the actors
I want to see play these parts.

I want to see what they
look like if they read.

We'll see what happens.

So I think the interesting thing
that happens is

that when you look at the world
through another lens,

when you're not the person normally

in charge of things,

it just comes out a different way.

CS: So you now, you have
this big machine that you run,

as a titan, as you know,
last year when you gave her talk,

she's a titan.

So what do you think is going to happen

as we go on.

There's a huge amount of money involved
in producing these shows.

While the tools of making stories
have gone and gotten greatly democratized,

there's still this large distribution,

people who rent networks,
who rent the audience to advertisers

and make it all pay.

How do you see the business model changing

now that anyone can be a storyteller?

SR: I think it's changing every day.

I mean, the rapid, rapid change
that's happening is amazing.

And I feel the panic is palpable,

and I don't mean that in a bad way.

I think it's kind of exciting.

The idea that there's sort of
an equalizer happening

that sort of means that anybody
can make something is wonderful.

I think there's some scary in the idea

that you can't find the good work now.

There's so much work out there.

I think there's something like
417 dramas on television right now

at any given time in any given place,
but you can't find them.

You can't find the good ones.

So there's a lot of bad stuff out there
because everybody can make something.

It's like if everybody painted a painting.

You know, there's not
that many good painters.

But finding the good stories,

the good shows, is harder
and harder and harder,

because if you have
one tiny show over here on AMC

and one tiny show over here over there,

finding where they are
becomes much harder.

So I think that ferreting out the gems

and finding out who made
the great webisode and who made this,

it's, I mean, think about the poor critics
who now are spending 24 hours a day

trapped in their homes
watching everything.

It's not an easy job right now.

So the distribution engines
are getting more and more vast,

but finding the good programming
for everybody in the audience

is getting harder,

and unlike the news,

where everything's getting
winnowed down to just who you are,

television seems to be getting,

and by television I mean anything
you can watch television shows on,

seems to be getting wider
and wider and wider.

And so anybody's making stories,

and the geniuses are sometimes hidden,

but it's going to be harder to find,

and at some point that will collapse.

People keep talking about peak TV.

I don't know when that's going to happen.

I think at some point
it'll collapse a little bit

and we'll, sort of, come back together.

I don't know if it
will be network television.

I don't know if that model is sustainable.

CS: What about the model that
Amazon and Netflix are throwing

a lot of money around right now.

SR: That is true.

I think it's an interesting model.

I think there's something
exciting about it.

For content creators, I think
there's something exciting about it.

For the world I think
there's something exciting about it.

The idea that there are programs now

that can be in multiple languages
with characters from all over the world

that are appealing and come out
for everybody at the same time

is exciting.

I mean, I think the international sense

that television can now take on
makes sense to me,

that programming can now take on.

Television so much is made for, like,
here's our American audience.

We make these shows,

and then they shove them
out into the world

and hope for the best,

as opposed to really thinking
about the fact that America is not it.

I mean, we love ourselves
and everything, but it's not it,

and we should be taking into account
the fact that there are all

of these other places in the world

that we should be interested in
while we're telling stories.

It makes the world smaller.

I don't know.

I think it pushes forward the idea
that the world is a universal place,

and our stories become universal things.

We stop being other.