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Chris Anderson: Welcome.
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So look, just six months ago,
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it seems a lifetime ago,
but it really was just six months ago,
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climate seemed to be on the lips
of every thinking person on the planet.
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Recent events seem to have swept it
all away from our attention.
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How worried are you about that?
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Al Gore: Well, first of all Chris,
thank you so much for inviting me
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to have this conversation.
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People are reacting differently
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to the climate crisis
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in the midst of these
other great challenges
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that have taken over our awareness,
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appropriately.
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One reason is something
that you mentioned.
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People get the fact that when scientists
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are warning us
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in ever more dire terms
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and setting their hair
on fire, so to speak,
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it's best to listen
to what they're saying,
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and I think that lesson
has begun to sink in in a new way.
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Another similarity, by the way,
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is that the climate crisis,
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like the COVID-19 pandemic,
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has revealed in a new way
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the shocking injustices and inequalities
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and disparities that affect
communities of color
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and low-income communities.
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There are differences.
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The climate crisis has effects
that are not measured in years,
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as the pandemic is,
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but consequences that are measured
in centuries and even longer.
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And the other difference
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is that instead of depressing
economic activity
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to deal with the climate crisis,
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as nations around the world
have had to do with COVID-19,
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we have the opportunity to create
tens of millions of new jobs.
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That sounds like a political phrasing,
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but it's literally true.
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For the last five years,
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the fastest-growing job in the US
has been solar installer.
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The second fastest has been
wind turbine technician.
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And the Oxford Review of Economics
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just a few weeks ago
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pointed the way to
a very jobs-rich recovery
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if we emphasize renewable energy
and sustainability technology.
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So I think we are
crossing a tipping point,
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and you need only look
at the recovery plans
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that are being presented
in nations around the world
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to see that they're very much
focused on a green recovery.
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CA: I mean, one obvious impact
of the pandemic
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is that it's brought the world's economy
to a shuddering halt,
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thereby reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
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I mean, how big an effect has that been,
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and is it unambiguously good news?
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AG: Well, it's a little bit
of an illusion, Chris,
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and you need only look back
to the Great Recession in 2008 and '9,
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where there was a one percent
decline in emissions,
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but then in 2010
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they came roaring back during the recovery
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with a four percent increase.
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The latest estimates are that emissions
will go down by at least five percent
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during this induced coma,
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as the economist Paul Krugman
perceptively described it,
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but whether it goes back the way it did
after the Great Recession
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is in part up to us,
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and if these green recovery plans
are actually implemented,
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and I know many countries
are determined to implement them,
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then we need not repeat that pattern.
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After all, this whole process is occurring
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during a period when the cost
of renewable energy and electric vehicles,
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batteries, and a range of other
sustainability approaches
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are continuing to fall in price,
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and they're becoming
much more competitive.
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Just a quick reference
to how fast this is:
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five years ago, electricity
from solar and wind
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was cheaper than electricity
from fossil fuels
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in only one percent of the world.
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This year, it's cheaper
in two thirds of the world,
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and five years from now
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it will be cheaper in virtually
100 percent of the world.
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EVs will be cost-competitive
within two years,
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and then will continue falling in price.
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And so there are changes underway
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that could interrupt the pattern
we saw after the Great Recession.
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CA: The reason those pricing differentials
happen in different parts of the world
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is obviously just because
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there's different amounts
of sunshine and wind there
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and different building costs and so forth.
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AG: Well, yes, and government policies
also count for a lot.
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The world is continuing
to subsidize fossil fuels
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at a ridiculous amount,
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moreso may developing countries
than in the US and developed countries,
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but it's subsidized here as well.
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But everywhere in the world,
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wind and solar will be cheaper
as a source of electricity
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than fossil fuels within a few years.
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CA: I think I've heard it said
that the fall in emissions
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caused the pandemic
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isn't that much more
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than the fall that we will need
every single year
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if we're to meet emissions targets.
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Is that true, and, if so,
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doesn't that seem impossibly daunting?
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AG: It does seem daunting,
but first look at the number.
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That number came from a study
a little over a year ago
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released by the IPCC
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as to what it would take
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to keep the Earth's temperatures
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from increasing more than
1.5 degrees Celsius.
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And yes, the annual reductions
would be significant,
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on the order of what we've seen
with the pandemic.
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And yes, that does seem daunting.
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However, we do have the opportunity
to make some fairly dramatic changes,
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and the plan is not a mystery.
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You start with the two sectors that are
closest to an effective transition --
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electricity generation, as I mentioned,
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and last year, 2019,
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if you look at all of the new
electricity generation built
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all around the world,
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72 percent of it was from solar and wind.
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And already, without the continuing
subsidies for fossil fuels,
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we would see many more of these plants
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being shut down.
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There are some new
fossil plants being built,
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but many more are being shut down.
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And where transportation is concerned,
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the second sector ready to go,
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in addition to the cheaper prices
for EVs that I made reference to before,
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there are some 45 jurisdictions
around the world --
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national, regional, and municipal --
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where laws have been passed
beginning a phaseout
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of internal combustion engines.
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Even India said that by 2030,
less than 10 years from now,
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it will be illegal to sell
any new internal combustion engines
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in India.
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There are many other examples.
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So the past small reductions
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may not be an accurate guide
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to the kind we can achieve
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with serious national plans
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and a focused global effort.
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CA: So help us understand
just the big picture here, Al.
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I think before the pandemic,
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the world was emitting
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about 55 gigatons of what
they call CO2 equivalent,
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so that includes other greenhouse gases
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like methane dialed up
to be the equivalent of CO2.
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And am I right in saying that the IPCC,
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which is the global
organization of scientists,
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is recommending that
the only way to fix this crisis
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is to get that number from 55 to zero
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by 2050 at the very latest,
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and that even then that there's a chance
that we will end up with temperature rises
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more like two degrees Celsius
rather than 1.5.
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I mean, is that approximately
the big picture
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of what the IPCC is recommending?
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AG: That's correct.
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The global goal established
in the Paris Conference
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is to get to net zero on a global basis
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by 2050,
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and many people quickly add
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that that really means a 45
to 50 percent reduction by 2030
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to make that pathway
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to net zero feasible.
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CA: And that kind of timeline
is the kind of timeline
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where people can't even imagine.
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It's just hard to think
of policy over 30 years.
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So that's actually a very good shorthand,
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that humanity's task is to cut
emissions in half by 2030,
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approximately speaking,
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which I think boils down to
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about a seven or eight percent
reduction a year, something like that,
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if I'm not wrong.
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AG: Not quite. Not quite that large,
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but close, yes.
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CA: So it is something like the effect
that we've experienced this year
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maybe be necessary.
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This year we've done it
by basically shutting down the economy.
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You're talking about a way of doing it
over the coming years
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that actually gives some
economic growth and new jobs.
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So talk more about that.
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You've referred to
changing our energy sources,
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changing how we transport.
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If we did those things,
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how much of the problem does that solve?
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AG: Well, we can get to,
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well, in addition to doing
the two sectors that I mentioned,
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we also have to deal with manufacturing
and all the use cases
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that require temperatures
to a thousand degrees Celsius,
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and there are solutions there as well.
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I'll come back and mention an exciting one
that Germany has just embarked upon.
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We also have to tackle
regenerative agriculture.
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There is the opportunity
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to sequester a great deal of carbon
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in topsoils around the world
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by changing the agricultural techniques.
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There is a farmer-led movement to do that.
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We need to also retrofit buildings.
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We need to change our management
of forests and the ocean.
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But let me just mention
two things briefly.
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First of all, the high
temperature use cases.
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Angela Merkel, just 10 days ago,
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with the leadership of
her Minister Peter Altmaier,
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who is a good friend
and a great public servant,
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have just embarked on
a green hydrogen strategy
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to make hydrogen
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with zero marginal cost renewable energy.
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And just a word on that, Chris,
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you've heard about the intermittency
of wind and solar.
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Solar doesn't produce electricity
when the sun's not shining
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and wind doesn't
when the wind's not blowing.
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But batteries are getting better,
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and these technologies are becoming
much more efficient and powerful,
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so that for an increasing
number of hours of each day,
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they're producing often way more
electricity than can be used.
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So what to do with it?
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The marginal cost for
the next kilowatt-hour is zero.
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So all of a sudden,
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the very energy-intensive process
of cracking hydrogen from water
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becomes economically feasible,
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and it can be substituted
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for coal and gas,
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and that's already being done.
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There's a Swedish company
already making steel
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with green hydrogen,
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and as I say Germany has just embarked
on a major new initiative to do that.
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I think they're pointing the way
for the rest of the world.
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Now, where building retrofits
are concerned, just a moment on this,
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because about 20 to 25 percent
of the global warming pollution
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in the world and in the US
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comes from inefficient buildings
-
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that were constructed
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by companies and individuals
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who were trying to be competitive
in the marketplace
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and keep their margins acceptably high
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and thereby skimping on insulation
and the right windows
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and LEDs and the rest.
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And yet the person or company
that buys that building
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or leases that building,
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they want their monthly
utility bills much lower.
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So there are now ways
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to close that so-called
agent-principal divide,
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the differing incentives
for the building and occupier,
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and we can retrofit buildings with
a program that literally pays for itself
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over three to five years,
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and we could put tens of millions
of people to work
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in jobs that by definition
cannot be outsourced
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because they exist
in every single community.
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And we really ought to get serious
about doing this,
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because we're going to need all those jobs
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to get sustainable prosperity
in the aftermath of this pandemic.
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CA: Just coming back
to the hydrogen economy
-
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that you referred to there,
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when some people hear that,
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they think, oh, are you talking
about hydrogen-fueled cars?
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And they've heard that that
probably won't be a winning strategy.
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But you're thinking much more
broadly than that, I think,
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that it's not just hydrogen
as a kind of storage mechanism
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to act as a buffer for renewable energy,
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but also hydrogen could be essential
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for some of the other processes
in the economy like making steel,
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making cement
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that are fundamentally
carbon-intensive processes right now
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but could be transformed if we had
much cheaper sources of hydrogen.
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Is that right?
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AG: Yes, I was always skeptical
about hydrogen, Chris,
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principally because it's been so expensive
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to make it,
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to crack it out of water, as they say.
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But the game-changer has been
the incredible abundance
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of solar and wind electricity
in volumes and amounts
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that people didn't expect,
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and all of a sudden
it's cheap enough to use
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for these very energy-intensive processes
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like creating green hydrogen.
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I'm still a bit skeptical
about using it in vehicles.
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Toyota's been betting on that for 25 years
and hasn't really worked for them.
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Never say never, maybe it will,
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but I think it's most useful for these
high-temperature industrial processes,
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and we already have a pathway
for decarbonizing transportation
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with electricity
-
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that's working extremely well.
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Tesla's going to be soon the most valuable
automobile company in the world,
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already in the US,
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and they're about to overtake Toyota.
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There is now a semi truck company
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that's been stood up by Tesla
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and another that is going to be a hybrid
with electricity and green hydrogen,
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so we'll see whether or not
they can make it work in that application.
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But I think electricity
is preferable for cars and trucks.
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CA: We're coming to some
community questions in a minute.
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Let me ask you, though, about nuclear.
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Some environmentalists
believe that nuclear,
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or maybe new generation nuclear power
-
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is an essential part of the equation
-
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if we're to get to a truly clean future,
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a clean energy future.
-
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Are you still pretty skeptical
on nuclear, Al?
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AG: Well, the market's skeptical
about it, Chris.
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It's been a crushing disappointment
for me and for so many.
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I used to represent Oak Ridge,
where nuclear energy began,
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and when I was a young congressman
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I was a booster.
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I was very enthusiastic about it.
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But the cost overruns
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and the problems in building these plants
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have become so severe
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that utilities just don't have
an appetite for them.
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It's become the most expensive
source of electricity.
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Now, let me hasten to add
that there are some older nuclear reactors
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that have more useful time
that could be added on to their lifetimes,
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and like a lot of environmentalists
I've come to the view
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that if they can be determined to be safe,
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they should be allowed to continue
operating for a time.
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But where new nuclear
power plants are concerned,
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here's a way to look at it.
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If you are -- you've been a CEO, Chris.
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If you were the CEO of --
I guess you still are.
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If you were the CEO
of an electric utility,
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and you told your executive team,
-
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"I want to build a nuclear power plant,"
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two of the first questions
you would ask are, number one,
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how much will it cost?
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And there's not a single
engineering consulting firm
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that I've been able to find
anywhere in the world
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that will put their name on an opinion
-
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giving you a cost estimate.
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They just don't know.
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A second question you would ask is,
how long will it take to build it
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so we can start selling the electricity?
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And again the answer you will get is,
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we have no idea.
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So if you don't know
how much it's going to cost,
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and you don't know
when it's going to be finished,
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and you already know that
the electricity is more expensive
-
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than the alternate ways to produce it,
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that's going to be a little discouraging,
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and in fact that's been the case
for utilities around the world.
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CA: OK.
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So there's definitely
an interesting debate there,
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but we're going to come on
to some community questions.
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Let's have the first
of those questions up please.
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From Prosanta Chakrbarty:
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"People who are skeptical
of COVID and of climate change
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seem to be skeptical
of science in general.
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It may be that the singular
message from scientists
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gets diluted and convoluted.
-
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How do we fix that?
-
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AG: Yeah, that's
a great question, Prosanta.
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Boy, I'm trying to put this
succinctly and shortly.
-
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I think that there has been
-
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a feeling that experts in general
-
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have kind of let the US down,
-
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and that feeling is much more pronounced
in the US than in most other countries.
-
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And I think that considered opinion
-
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of what we call experts
-
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has been diluted over the last few decades
-
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by the unhealthy dominance
of big money in our political system
-
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which has found ways
to really twist economic policy
-
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to benefit elites,
-
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and this sounds a little radical
-
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but it's actually what has happened.
-
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And we have gone for more than 40 years
-
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without any meaningful increase
in middle income pay,
-
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and where the injustice experienced
by African Americans
-
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and other communities
of color are concerned,
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the differential in pay between
African Americans and majority Americans
-
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is the same as it was in 1968,
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and the family wealth,
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the net worth,
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it takes 11 and a half so-called
"typical" African American families
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to make up the net worth of one
so-called "typical" White American family.
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And you look at the soaring incomes
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in the top one
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or the top one tenth of one percent,
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and people say, "Wait a minute.
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Whoever the experts were
that designed these policies,
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they haven't been doing
a good job for me."
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A final point, Chris,
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there has been an assault on reason.
-
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There has been a war against truth.
-
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There has been a strategy,
-
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maybe it was best known as a strategy
decades ago by the tobacco companies
-
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who hired actors and dressed them up
as doctors to falsely reassure people
-
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that there were no health consequences
-
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from smoking cigarettes,
-
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and a hundred million people
died as a result.
-
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That same strategy of diminishing
the significance of truth,
-
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diminishing, as someone said,
the authority of knowledge,
-
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I think that has made it open season
-
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on any inconvenient truth --
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forgive another buzz phrase --
-
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but it is apt.
-
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We cannot abandon our devotion
to the best available evidence
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tested in reasoned discourse
-
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and used as the basis
-
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for the best policies we can form.
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CA: Is it possible, Al,
that one consequence of the pandemic
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is actually a growing number of people
-
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have revisited their opinions
-
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on scientists?
-
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I mean, you've had a chance
in the last few months to say,
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do I trust my political leader
or do I trust this scientist
-
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in terms of what they're saying
-
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about this virus.
-
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Maybe lessons from that
could be carried forward?
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AG: Well, you know, I think
if the polling is accurate,
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people do trust their doctors
a lot more than some of the politicians
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who seem to have a vested interest
in pretending the pandemic isn't real.
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And if you look at the incredible bust
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at President Trump's rally in Tulsa,
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a stadium of 19,000 people
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with less than one third filled,
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according to the fire marshal,
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you saw all the empty seats
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if you saw the news clips,
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so even the most loyal Trump supporters
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must have decided to trust their doctors
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and the medical advice
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rather than Dr. Donald Trump.
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CA: With a little help from
the TikTok generation, per chance.
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AG: Well, but that didn't
affect the turnout.
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What they did, very cleverly,
and I'm cheering them on,
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what they did was affect
the Trump White House's expectations.
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They're the reason why he went out
a couple days beforehand
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and said, "We've had
a million people sign up."
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But they didn't prevent,
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they didn't take seats that others
could have otherwise taken.
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They didn't affect the turnout,
just the expectations.
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CA: OK, let's have our next question here.
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"Are you concerned the world will rush
back to the use of the private car
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out of fear of using
shared public transportation?"
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AG: Well, that could actually be
one of the consequences, absolutely.
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Now, the trends on mass transit
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were already inching
in the wrong direction
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because of Uber and Lyft
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and the ridesharing services,
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and if autonomy ever reaches the goals
that its advocates have hoped for
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then that may also have a similar effect.
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But there's no doubt that some people
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are gonna be probably a little more
reluctant to take mass transportation
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until the fear of this pandemic
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is well and truly gone.
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CA: Yeah. Might need
a vaccine on that one.
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AG: (Laughs) Yeah.
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CA: Next question.
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Sonaar Luthra, thank you
for this question from LA.
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"Given the temperature rise
in the Arctic this past week,
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seems like the rate
we are losing our carbon sinks
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like permafrost or forests is accelerating
faster than we predicted.
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Are our models too focused
on human emissions?"
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Interesting question.
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AG: Well, the models are focused
on the factors that have led
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to these incredible temperature spikes
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in the north of the Arctic Circle.
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They were predicted,
they have been predicted,
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and one of the reasons for it
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is that as the snow and ice cover melts,
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the sun's incoming rays
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are no longer reflected back into space
at a 90 percent rate,
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and instead when they fall on
the dark tundra or the dark ocean,
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they're absorbed at a 90 percent rate.
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So that's a magnifier
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of the warming in the Arctic,
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and this has been predicted.
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There are a number of other consequences
that are also in the models,
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but some of them
may have to be recalibrated.
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The scientists are freshly concerned
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that the emissions of both CO2 and methane
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from the thawing tundra
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could be larger than they
had hoped they would be.
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There's also just been a brand new study.
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I won't spend time on this,
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because it deals with a kind of geeky term
called "climate sensitivity,"
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which has been a factor in the models
with large error bars
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because it's so hard to pin down.
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But the latest evidence
indicates worryingly
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that the sensitivity may be
greater than they had thought,
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and we will have
an even more daunting task.
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That shouldn't discourage us.
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I truly believe that once
we cross this tipping point,
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and I do believe we're doing it now,
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as I've said,
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then I think we're going to find
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a lot of ways to speed up
the emissions reductions.
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CA: We'll take one more question
from the community.
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Haha. "Geoengineering
is making extraordinary progress.
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Exxon is investing in technology
from Global Thermostat
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that seems promising.
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What do you think of these air and water
carbon capture technologies?"
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Stephen Petranek.
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AG: Yeah.