Is It Sinful for a Married Couple to Not Have Children? - Ask Pastor Tim

"I read an article that said

that it is moral rebellion

to deliberately not have children

when you're married.

The article said that to think

that you could have marriage and sex

but no kids is to defraud God's design.

Are we doing anything wrong

by not having children?

And as a result, not dealing

with the pain and challenges

that can come from having kids?

Is it the motive that must be questioned?

I'm worried."

So what do you think?

Children? No children?

If we marry,

a man marries a woman,

are they commanded

that if physically possible,

they should have children?

Let me ask you a question.

(Incomplete thought)

Let's suppose this.

Let's suppose you get married,

and you have seven children,

and then the doctor says to the wife,

if you have any more children,

you're probably not going to make it.

It's probably going to kill you.

Is it ok to stop having kids?

On what basis?

Because you've got to be careful here.

Because whatever basis you say it's right

to stop having them...

(incomplete thought)

Let's take the seven down to two kids,

or down to one or down to none.

So, is that basis for which we stopped

having children at seven,

does it also work for

not having any at all?

And if my wife's health

and so maybe both of our health

should be taken into question,

is it that it might cause premature death

to have children?

If the chances are high enough of that?

And when does the reason become invalid

and who sets that standard?

So Pedro, you're nodding up and down.

Pedro: No, I wasn't.

Tim: Oh, you were. So come on.

Look, I'll just tell you,

if I have seven children

and the doctor tells me

your wife probably isn't going to make it,

somebody could come along and say

well, brother, you've
got to live by faith.

Well, yes, I do.

But living by faith -

I have faith in that doctor

and what that doctor told me

seems to line up with
the physical evidence

that I'm observing in my wife,

and the reality is I believe him

because it's not like
I'm looking at my wife

and she looks like a specimen of health,

and yet he's telling
me she's deathly sick.

I'm looking at my wife

and I'm seeing what he's saying is true.

My wife isn't what she used to be.

My wife is declining physically.

I recognize this.

Would I stop having children after 7?

I would.

On what basis?

See, we're not just a
checklist kind of people.

It's not just show me in the Bible

where it says that.

It's like love your wife

as Christ loved the church.

So, look, I'll let you men define

what love to your wife looks like.

In my estimation,

that would be love for my wife.

But ok, let's say we don't have any kids.

And my wife says, oh honey,

can we just not have kids?

(incomplete thought)

There's going to be so much pain

and so many challenges

that would come from having children.

Can we just not have any?

Ok, if you're going to say

well, that's not loving your wife

if you let her get away with that.

On what basis would you say that?

(Incomplete thought)

If somebody was going to say

that we're defrauding God's purpose,

what do you think they're alluding to?

Genesis.

Be fruitful and multiply

is what was told to -

who was it told to?

Adam, Noah, Jacob...

at least those three I know

that it was said to.

Be fruitful and multiply.

Ok, well let me ask you this.

Do you take that as a commandment?

If you say yes,

then how is marriage optional?

Do you see what I'm saying?

Be fruitful and multiply.

If that's a command,

then that sounds like it's a command

for every man to get married.

And in fact, if you go a little ways after

it talks about being fruitful and multiply

it says some words concerning marriage

that sound pretty much like the same kind

of command.

Let the man (do something).

Anybody know what it says?

It says that the man is supposed

to leave the father and mother.

And the thing is it doesn't say,

if he gets married.

It just says he's supposed to do it.

So does that mean everybody
should get married?

Or does that mean that

until Paul came along

in 1 Corinthians,

everybody was supposed to get married?

See, you've got a problem with that

because remember when the disciples said,

Oh, if that's true, we'd be better off

not being married.

And what did Jesus say?

You remember the situation?

Rich, young ruler.

Isn't that where it comes up?

No, where did He talk about that?

Where does Jesus talk about

some are eunuchs?

Is that right after the rich, young ruler?

I think it is.

But He says not everybody can accept

this saying.

Oh, no, it's Matthew 19.

Excuse me.

Matthew 19 after that whole discourse

on divorce.

Isn't that where it is?

And that's when the disciples said whoa!

You know, if this is the case,

we're better off not marrying,

and He says not everybody
can receive that.

Some are eunuchs.

Even then.

Even before Paul came along

and wrote to the Corinthians,

the reality is there were people

who didn't get married.

So here's the thing.

If be fruitful and multiply

is a command to multiply,

you would think that it would have

by necessity included

the commandment to marry,

which if you actually look at

what's being said about marriage,

it sounds like the same kind of command

that be fruitful and multiply sounds like.

And yet when you move away

into the New Testament,

you find that marriage

certainly isn't required.

In fact, Paul thought people

may be even better off not doing it.

Jesus was never married.

Barnabas was never married.

(from the room)

Isn't it kind of

reminiscent of 1 Timothy 4?

About those forbidding marriage

and requiring abstinence -

like it's kind of the law.

Tim: Well, somebody was laying down

a law forbidding marriage,

because obviously the Catholic church,

demonic doctrines are going to come in

and the Catholic church is a great example

of that.

But I guess the point that
I'm trying to get at here is

ok, we have things in Scripture said

about being fruitful and multiplying.

You've got something said,

what is it Psalm 123 or 127 or something

about the quiver being full.

Here's the thing.

Women who didn't have children,

wanted children.

Scripturally.

Can you think of anybody in Scripture

that purposely did not have children?

I can think of one person.

And God killed him.

But it wasn't just because he looked

at the commandment:

Be fruitful and multiply,

and said no!

It was: Raise up seed for your brother,

and he said no.

One of the sons of Judah.

You remember him?

You remember Perez

is in the Messianic line.

And his father was Judah;

his mother was Tamar.

You remember the whole
incident with Tamar?

She disguised herself as a prostitute.
Got impregnated by her father-in-law.

Well, there were sons there.

The first son, the second son...

and the first son died,

and so Tamar was given to the second son,

and then that son Onan had to raise up

seed to his dead brother,

and he wasn't willing to do it

and God killed him.

But see, that's different.

He wasn't just disobeying the commandment

to have children,

he was disobeying the commandment

to raise up seed for his brother.

So, it's a different situation.

But other than that,

I can't think of any place

in the Old Testament

where people willingly
didn't want children.

In fact, if anything, it was a curse

if you didn't have children.

It was looked down on.

You remember how it was with Sarah

in her old age.

Or you remember how it was with Rachel

when Leah's bearing all sorts of children,

and Rachel can't have any.

They all wanted children.

Or you think about Elizabeth

when you come into the New Testament.

It just seemed like it was the norm.

It was the blessing.

The idea of somebody not wanting children

was like just unheard of.

So, here's the thing.

Again, we don't just live by a checklist.

What I would want to know -

even in the New Testament,

having children is assumed.

Like, you get the qualifications

for elders and deacons,

it's just assumed that they have children.

It doesn't mean they
have to have children.

But it's just assumed that they do.

Or you know you get the older women

teaching the younger women

there in Titus,

and it's just assumed that older women

are supposed to teach the younger women

to love their husbands and their children.

The children are assumed.

(in response to comment): Right,

the widows being enrolled in 1 Timothy 5,

it's assumed that they raised children.

They were the wife of one husband.

And they raised children

and they showed hospitality

and washed the feet of the saints.

But it's just assumed.

But here's the thing,

Paul comes along and says,

in this present distress,

I would say that it's better

if you didn't even marry,

and obviously if you don't marry,

you're not having children.

(Incomplete thought)

What's the present distress?

Let's say there was a severe persecution

taking place right at that time.

Paul says, look, in light of the distress,

in light of the fact that Christians

are being chased all over the place,

and they're being hunted down...

I'll tell you, it's best not being married

because if you have a family

in that kind of situation,

let's say you already got married

and then you hear Paul say that.

And it's like, well, we're married

and so we're going to keep our vows here,

but in light of this present distress,

we do think it's best
not to have children;

not to bring them into this.

I don't want my wife pregnant.

Jesus even said something about

you should hope that you're not with child

or it's not on the Sabbath

at certain times when the Romans

are going to come in.

Why? Because it's difficult to travel.

If you're in a time of
heavy duty persecution,

Christians are on the run.

You've already gotten married.

You've got to keep those vows.

But you come to recognize,

you know, it might not be

in our best interest.

Here's one of the things to consider.

Back in those days,

maybe you can correct me on this,

I don't know anything about birth control

in those days,

but I can tell you this,

that if a man and a woman are married,

one of the first things that Paul says
in 1 Corinthians 7 is that they

need to not withhold their
bodies from each other.

Well, back in those
days, I don't know

what forms of birth control they had,

but you're not supposed to

withhold yourself from each other,

and so, you know, the
birth control thing -

when did that come in?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I've never researched it.

I don't know the issues.

Obviously, those things come into

the equation now maybe in ways

that they didn't 2,000 years ago.

I can tell you this,

you better not be killing your children.

Any type of birth control that is abortive

even as a third or fourth option

of preventative is (incomplete thought).

I will tell you that if it is ever

found out in our church

that somebody is using that form,

it is a disciplinary matter

undoubtedly, unquestionably.

Any form of birth control

that even remotely can be abortive.

For the life of me,

I can't figure out why in the world

things like this even come up for debate

among genuine Christians.

Maybe they don't.

Maybe genuine Christians would

abominate the idea of
murdering their children.

Maybe there's ignorance too.

But I think birth control

ends up being part of the equation.

But here's the thing,

if a Christian couple said

that they didn't want to have children,

if they told me it was because of

the present distress,

and they're on the phone with me,

and they happen to be over in North Korea

and they're on the run

and they're living in the marshes -

ok, I understand that.

I'm not going to fault that.

If they say, you know what?

God just pressed upon us to adopt,

and we've adopted 14 children,

and we've always believed

that's what God wanted us to do.

There's so many children without parents.

You know what?

I would not question that.

But if somebody's like,

just give me the easy life.

Yeah, you know what,

you probably need children.

I mean, I would probably pastorally

be encouraging them to have them.

And we've run into that situation.

James may remember a situation

we ran into several years back

when somebody that most of you

probably know -

he and his wife weren't having children,

and just looking at the normalcy of it

in Scripture,

it's like why would you not?

But, you know, if somebody's

in a ministerial position of some sort -

they're a pastor or deacon,

I think it's good for men
in those positions

to be married and have wives -

not that it's absolutely mandatory,

but I think it's good.

It tends to set a good example.

And look, it's not like
you have to have kids

to be able to counsel on kids.

It's not like you have to be married

to counsel on marriage.

Paul wasn't married and he gave counsel

on marriage and on kids.

So, you know, you don't want to say

you can't tell me anything about that.

Look, truth is truth,

no matter who's telling you.

But it is helpful to have experiences.

There's no question about that.

But you know, if I'm getting the feeling

that somebody's making that decision

because they just want ease,

oh brethren, through much tribulation...

So if you opt out of children

because you're looking
for the easier path,

and you're truly a child of God,

don't believe you're on the easy road.

The Lord will see to it that

that's not going to happen.

Pastorally, if I was sensing

that somebody was not having children

because of some kind of worldliness;

some kind of selfishness;

I would probably want to

put my finger on that.

Any other thoughts?

(from the room)

I don't remember if you
hit on this or not

but as far as the verse:

Be fruitful and multiply.

Is there a way we should view that

in the New Testament.

I mean Israel is a physical nation

taking this lineage to have Christ,

a physical people.

We're now looking to not just

make physical children

but spiritual children.

Is there any way we could take

that text and view it

in the New Testament through that lens?

Tim: Well, we could just spiritualize it,

much like marriage has all these

spiritual realities.

We could spiritualize it.

(from the room)

For people who do spiritualize it,

are you comfortable with that?

Or do you feel like they don't

actually have biblical grounds to do that?

Tim: Well, I think Jesus basically

was saying be fruitful and multiply

in His Great Commission.

But whether it's taken from that

and if somebody took it and said,

well, that's all that means to me

today as a New Testament believer.

Well, really, I would just say this:

The fact that Paul tells people

not to marry is indirectly a call

to not bear children too.

And so, I guess that's
the tension I feel there.

(Incomplete thought)

Just think with me here.

He's clearly indicating that

for the sake of serving the Lord,

it would be best not to be married.

You can be more fully
devoted to the Lord then.

I would say if a married couple

didn't have children,

and seriously they were concerned

about serving the Lord,

and they weren't having the children

in order to serve the Lord
in a certain capacity,

is there a place to use
Paul's same argumentation

to make that case?

It's an off-handed way,

and I recognize he
directly did not say that.

And then I recognize you also have

the other aspect

that you have a man and a woman

and the two are supposed to be

giving their bodies to one another.

Typically, the natural result
of that is children.

And obviously some unnatural action

has to be taken,

to prevent that from happening.

It's the kind of thing that I think

we all have to wrestle
with these questions

and we have to come to a place

(incomplete thought)

It's kind of like Romans 14

where Paul is saying that

let everyone be persuaded in his own mind.

We want people that are convinced.

And so you want to wrestle through.

And the thing we have to be honest about,

is really seriously looking

at what Scripture says

and what God's will is -

not just what our will is.

Not just going in with our will

already made up

or our lifestyle already determined

in our own minds.

And then we're just looking

for the way to validate our lifestyle.

This doesn't just end.

It's be fruitful and multiply.

And so, the question doesn't only come up

with whether you have any children;

it comes up again after you've had one,

or two, or three, or four...

Every family in the church
is wrestling with this.

And look, this question comes up

and all you have to do is talk

to the men and the women,

and what you're getting is

some families, they're going
on to six and seven;

And some you see four, five, six...

they stop.

And there's no more.

Why?

Something happened?

And not only has something happened,

decisions are being made.

And people are wrestling with God's Word,

and they're wrestling with the truth here.

I would say in our church

those who believe that you should

keep having children until God stops

giving them to you

are the exception.

I personally only know of like 2 or 3

that have taken that position.

It's just something we all
have to wrestle with.

I can tell you this,

when I got to the point where

I wrestled with it,

it's like the Lord just gave me

a sense of peace.

And I know that's very subjective,

but look, I wanted ten children

from the very beginning.

My wife can tell you that.

And when the time came

and I sought the Lord in the matter,

it wasn't like there was even a wrestling.

As much as I wanted ten children,

it was like the Lord just affirmed it

that it was right to stop there.

And I know that's very subjective.

But a lot of this is going to be.

We have to wrestle

through these things,

and we have to take it before the Lord.

I'll tell you this.

If you go before the Lord,

and your will is surrendered,

you really want His will.

You really do.

That doesn't mean you
don't have preferences.

But you're really surrendered.

The Lord's going to guide you.

The Lord will take you in the path

that you need to go.

The Lord will make things obvious.

He'll bring the right counselors.

He'll bring the right Scripture

to bear on your conscience.

You just cry out to Him.

You keep your conscience guided

and immersed in Scripture all the time.

Scripture, Scripture, Scripture...

the last thing you need to be doing

is talking to your worldly relatives

or your worldly co-workers.

That's not what guides conscience.

It's Scripture.

It's God's Word

just washing your mind,

washing, washing, washing.

Being renewed, being renewed.

Being guided by a sense of God's will

and God's purpose.

And you know, I'm studying Scripture

all the time.

I can tell you from the
time that we had Joy until now,

I would have liked to
have had more children.

But I've never second guessed

whether we did the right thing or not.

After all the studying of Scripture,

it's not like, oh, you know this cloud

that we did the wrong thing.

We sought the Lord.

I believe the Lord guided us.

(from the room)

You don't need to give details,
but weren't there objective reasons?

Not just subjective?

Tim: Yes, there were.

I mean I went through all the objective -

the objective reasons.

Basically, we had a newborn,

a one year old, a three year old,

and a five year old.

And you know, a lot of times

when families were like that,

they had nannies and stuff.

We didn't have that.

We didn't have anybody.

(Incomplete thought)

And I was working full
time as an engineer,

trying to be involved in the ministry,

we lived out in the country

and we were in the woods,

so I was clearing trees

and putting water lines in.

I'd come home from work

and go right out.

A lot of times,

I wouldn't change my work clothes.

I'd just put my boots on

and straight out to try to get

every bit of daylight I could

out of the day.

And Ruby's got, I think,

two in diapers,

plus a three year old and a five year old.

And now, with the five year old,

homeschooling starts.

And she's just wiped out.

She said I have to start
home schooling now

and can we please stop?

You know, that coming at a guy

that over and over and over,

if she told you how many times

I said we're having ten kids,

I probably said it

ten times ten times ten times.

I'd tell it to everybody.

We're having ten kids.

And so when she came in

it was like,

I don't know if she thought

she was going to get hesitation,

but it was just like the Lord confirmed it

that it was out of love for my wife.

What time do we have?

Brethren, I'll tell you this.

The families in the church

that are convinced that they need

to keep having children,

I don't try to unconvince them.

Those who take: be fruitful and multiply

and they feel like that is a commandment

of God to them to keep having children,

amen.

We all have to wrestle
though these things,

and what I want is a church

full of people with conviction.

What I want is people who know

why they're doing what they do.

That's Romans 14.

And you know what's interesting

about Romans 14?

Is some people keep the day,
some people don't keep the day.

Some people eat the meat,
some people don't eat the meat.

Not everybody's doing the same thing.

But Paul said I want you all convinced.

In other words,

I want you all to be people of conviction.

You say, well, is that safe?

Having a church full of
people with conviction

when sometimes when their
convictions aren't right?

Or when their convictions don't line up?

Well yeah, that's healthy.

That doesn't mean you should have

a conviction about the Trinity

that's different from all the rest of us.

It doesn't mean you
have different thoughts

on justification by faith.

We're not talking about that.

We're talking about number of children;

we're talking about meat;

we're talking about observing days,

not observing a day.

We're talking about things like that.

And we should have a people

full of conviction.

Because what is a
people full of conviction?

It means they're
exercising their discernment.

They're finding out the good and the bad.

What that tells you is

you're getting mature people.

And it all the more reflects the maturity

when I strongly believe that I can have

four children,

and you strongly believe

that you should keep having children

till your wife is dead,

and we can both look at each other

and hug each other

and say, "Hi, brother."

And I'm not saying that there's any men

in the church that would go that far.

Ok.

Father, we pray make us a people

of the Word.

Make us people of the Book.

People that it could be said of us,

Lord, I think of Bunyan,

it was said of him

that you could cut him anywhere

and he would bleed Scripture.

And Lord, I know when people have

moved here to our church

they oftentimes are amazed

at how even the youngest believers

among us know so much Scripture.

And Lord, I pray that would just

continue all the more.

Lord, not to puff us up.

But may we know the Scriptures truly

in a way that humbles us;

in a way that we see Your glory;

in a way that our God is big, Lord;

in a way that our lives would be

guided by that lamp unto our feet.

Please, guide us by Your Word, Lord.

We pray in Christ's name,

Amen.