"I read an article that said
that it is moral rebellion
to deliberately not have children
when you're married.
The article said that to think
that you could have marriage and sex
but no kids is to defraud God's design.
Are we doing anything wrong
by not having children?
And as a result, not dealing
with the pain and challenges
that can come from having kids?
Is it the motive that must be questioned?
I'm worried."
So what do you think?
Children? No children?
If we marry,
a man marries a woman,
are they commanded
that if physically possible,
they should have children?
Let me ask you a question.
(Incomplete thought)
Let's suppose this.
Let's suppose you get married,
and you have seven children,
and then the doctor says to the wife,
if you have any more children,
you're probably not going to make it.
It's probably going to kill you.
Is it ok to stop having kids?
On what basis?
Because you've got to be careful here.
Because whatever basis you say it's right
to stop having them...
(incomplete thought)
Let's take the seven down to two kids,
or down to one or down to none.
So, is that basis for which we stopped
having children at seven,
does it also work for
not having any at all?
And if my wife's health
and so maybe both of our health
should be taken into question,
is it that it might cause premature death
to have children?
If the chances are high enough of that?
And when does the reason become invalid
and who sets that standard?
So Pedro, you're nodding up and down.
Pedro: No, I wasn't.
Tim: Oh, you were. So come on.
Look, I'll just tell you,
if I have seven children
and the doctor tells me
your wife probably isn't going to make it,
somebody could come along and say
well, brother, you've got to live by faith.
Well, yes, I do.
But living by faith -
I have faith in that doctor
and what that doctor told me
seems to line up with the physical evidence
that I'm observing in my wife,
and the reality is I believe him
because it's not like I'm looking at my wife
and she looks like a specimen of health,
and yet he's telling me she's deathly sick.
I'm looking at my wife
and I'm seeing what he's saying is true.
My wife isn't what she used to be.
My wife is declining physically.
I recognize this.
Would I stop having children after 7?
I would.
On what basis?
See, we're not just a checklist kind of people.
It's not just show me in the Bible
where it says that.
It's like love your wife
as Christ loved the church.
So, look, I'll let you men define
what love to your wife looks like.
In my estimation,
that would be love for my wife.
But ok, let's say we don't have any kids.
And my wife says, oh honey,
can we just not have kids?
(incomplete thought)
There's going to be so much pain
and so many challenges
that would come from having children.
Can we just not have any?
Ok, if you're going to say
well, that's not loving your wife
if you let her get away with that.
On what basis would you say that?
(Incomplete thought)
If somebody was going to say
that we're defrauding God's purpose,
what do you think they're alluding to?
Genesis.
Be fruitful and multiply
is what was told to -
who was it told to?
Adam, Noah, Jacob...
at least those three I know
that it was said to.
Be fruitful and multiply.
Ok, well let me ask you this.
Do you take that as a commandment?
If you say yes,
then how is marriage optional?
Do you see what I'm saying?
Be fruitful and multiply.
If that's a command,
then that sounds like it's a command
for every man to get married.
And in fact, if you go a little ways after
it talks about being fruitful and multiply
it says some words concerning marriage
that sound pretty much like the same kind
of command.
Let the man (do something).
Anybody know what it says?
It says that the man is supposed
to leave the father and mother.
And the thing is it doesn't say,
if he gets married.
It just says he's supposed to do it.
So does that mean everybody should get married?
Or does that mean that
until Paul came along
in 1 Corinthians,
everybody was supposed to get married?
See, you've got a problem with that
because remember when the disciples said,
Oh, if that's true, we'd be better off
not being married.
And what did Jesus say?
You remember the situation?
Rich, young ruler.
Isn't that where it comes up?
No, where did He talk about that?
Where does Jesus talk about
some are eunuchs?
Is that right after the rich, young ruler?
I think it is.
But He says not everybody can accept
this saying.
Oh, no, it's Matthew 19.
Excuse me.
Matthew 19 after that whole discourse
on divorce.
Isn't that where it is?
And that's when the disciples said whoa!
You know, if this is the case,
we're better off not marrying,
and He says not everybody can receive that.
Some are eunuchs.
Even then.
Even before Paul came along
and wrote to the Corinthians,
the reality is there were people
who didn't get married.
So here's the thing.
If be fruitful and multiply
is a command to multiply,
you would think that it would have
by necessity included
the commandment to marry,
which if you actually look at
what's being said about marriage,
it sounds like the same kind of command
that be fruitful and multiply sounds like.
And yet when you move away
into the New Testament,
you find that marriage
certainly isn't required.
In fact, Paul thought people
may be even better off not doing it.
Jesus was never married.
Barnabas was never married.
(from the room)
Isn't it kind of
reminiscent of 1 Timothy 4?
About those forbidding marriage
and requiring abstinence -
like it's kind of the law.
Tim: Well, somebody was laying down
a law forbidding marriage,
because obviously the Catholic church,
demonic doctrines are going to come in
and the Catholic church is a great example
of that.
But I guess the point that I'm trying to get at here is
ok, we have things in Scripture said
about being fruitful and multiplying.
You've got something said,
what is it Psalm 123 or 127 or something
about the quiver being full.
Here's the thing.
Women who didn't have children,
wanted children.
Scripturally.
Can you think of anybody in Scripture
that purposely did not have children?
I can think of one person.
And God killed him.
But it wasn't just because he looked
at the commandment:
Be fruitful and multiply,
and said no!
It was: Raise up seed for your brother,
and he said no.
One of the sons of Judah.
You remember him?
You remember Perez
is in the Messianic line.
And his father was Judah;
his mother was Tamar.
You remember the whole incident with Tamar?
She disguised herself as a prostitute. Got impregnated by her father-in-law.
Well, there were sons there.
The first son, the second son...
and the first son died,
and so Tamar was given to the second son,
and then that son Onan had to raise up
seed to his dead brother,
and he wasn't willing to do it
and God killed him.
But see, that's different.
He wasn't just disobeying the commandment
to have children,
he was disobeying the commandment
to raise up seed for his brother.
So, it's a different situation.
But other than that,
I can't think of any place
in the Old Testament
where people willingly didn't want children.
In fact, if anything, it was a curse
if you didn't have children.
It was looked down on.
You remember how it was with Sarah
in her old age.
Or you remember how it was with Rachel
when Leah's bearing all sorts of children,
and Rachel can't have any.
They all wanted children.
Or you think about Elizabeth
when you come into the New Testament.
It just seemed like it was the norm.
It was the blessing.
The idea of somebody not wanting children
was like just unheard of.
So, here's the thing.
Again, we don't just live by a checklist.
What I would want to know -
even in the New Testament,
having children is assumed.
Like, you get the qualifications
for elders and deacons,
it's just assumed that they have children.
It doesn't mean they have to have children.
But it's just assumed that they do.
Or you know you get the older women
teaching the younger women
there in Titus,
and it's just assumed that older women
are supposed to teach the younger women
to love their husbands and their children.
The children are assumed.
(in response to comment): Right,
the widows being enrolled in 1 Timothy 5,
it's assumed that they raised children.
They were the wife of one husband.
And they raised children
and they showed hospitality
and washed the feet of the saints.
But it's just assumed.
But here's the thing,
Paul comes along and says,
in this present distress,
I would say that it's better
if you didn't even marry,
and obviously if you don't marry,
you're not having children.
(Incomplete thought)
What's the present distress?
Let's say there was a severe persecution
taking place right at that time.
Paul says, look, in light of the distress,
in light of the fact that Christians
are being chased all over the place,
and they're being hunted down...
I'll tell you, it's best not being married
because if you have a family
in that kind of situation,
let's say you already got married
and then you hear Paul say that.
And it's like, well, we're married
and so we're going to keep our vows here,
but in light of this present distress,
we do think it's best not to have children;
not to bring them into this.
I don't want my wife pregnant.
Jesus even said something about
you should hope that you're not with child
or it's not on the Sabbath
at certain times when the Romans
are going to come in.
Why? Because it's difficult to travel.
If you're in a time of heavy duty persecution,
Christians are on the run.
You've already gotten married.
You've got to keep those vows.
But you come to recognize,
you know, it might not be
in our best interest.
Here's one of the things to consider.
Back in those days,
maybe you can correct me on this,
I don't know anything about birth control
in those days,
but I can tell you this,
that if a man and a woman are married,
one of the first things that Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7 is that they
need to not withhold their bodies from each other.
Well, back in those days, I don't know
what forms of birth control they had,
but you're not supposed to
withhold yourself from each other,
and so, you know, the birth control thing -
when did that come in?
I don't know.
I've never researched it.
I don't know the issues.
Obviously, those things come into
the equation now maybe in ways
that they didn't 2,000 years ago.
I can tell you this,
you better not be killing your children.
Any type of birth control that is abortive
even as a third or fourth option
of preventative is (incomplete thought).
I will tell you that if it is ever
found out in our church
that somebody is using that form,
it is a disciplinary matter
undoubtedly, unquestionably.
Any form of birth control
that even remotely can be abortive.
For the life of me,
I can't figure out why in the world
things like this even come up for debate
among genuine Christians.
Maybe they don't.
Maybe genuine Christians would
abominate the idea of murdering their children.
Maybe there's ignorance too.
But I think birth control
ends up being part of the equation.
But here's the thing,
if a Christian couple said
that they didn't want to have children,
if they told me it was because of
the present distress,
and they're on the phone with me,
and they happen to be over in North Korea
and they're on the run
and they're living in the marshes -
ok, I understand that.
I'm not going to fault that.
If they say, you know what?
God just pressed upon us to adopt,
and we've adopted 14 children,
and we've always believed
that's what God wanted us to do.
There's so many children without parents.
You know what?
I would not question that.
But if somebody's like,
just give me the easy life.
Yeah, you know what,
you probably need children.
I mean, I would probably pastorally
be encouraging them to have them.
And we've run into that situation.
James may remember a situation
we ran into several years back
when somebody that most of you
probably know -
he and his wife weren't having children,
and just looking at the normalcy of it
in Scripture,
it's like why would you not?
But, you know, if somebody's
in a ministerial position of some sort -
they're a pastor or deacon,
I think it's good for men in those positions
to be married and have wives -
not that it's absolutely mandatory,
but I think it's good.
It tends to set a good example.
And look, it's not like you have to have kids
to be able to counsel on kids.
It's not like you have to be married
to counsel on marriage.
Paul wasn't married and he gave counsel
on marriage and on kids.
So, you know, you don't want to say
you can't tell me anything about that.
Look, truth is truth,
no matter who's telling you.
But it is helpful to have experiences.
There's no question about that.
But you know, if I'm getting the feeling
that somebody's making that decision
because they just want ease,
oh brethren, through much tribulation...
So if you opt out of children
because you're looking for the easier path,
and you're truly a child of God,
don't believe you're on the easy road.
The Lord will see to it that
that's not going to happen.
Pastorally, if I was sensing
that somebody was not having children
because of some kind of worldliness;
some kind of selfishness;
I would probably want to
put my finger on that.
Any other thoughts?
(from the room)
I don't remember if you hit on this or not
but as far as the verse:
Be fruitful and multiply.
Is there a way we should view that
in the New Testament.
I mean Israel is a physical nation
taking this lineage to have Christ,
a physical people.
We're now looking to not just
make physical children
but spiritual children.
Is there any way we could take
that text and view it
in the New Testament through that lens?
Tim: Well, we could just spiritualize it,
much like marriage has all these
spiritual realities.
We could spiritualize it.
(from the room)
For people who do spiritualize it,
are you comfortable with that?
Or do you feel like they don't
actually have biblical grounds to do that?
Tim: Well, I think Jesus basically
was saying be fruitful and multiply
in His Great Commission.
But whether it's taken from that
and if somebody took it and said,
well, that's all that means to me
today as a New Testament believer.
Well, really, I would just say this:
The fact that Paul tells people
not to marry is indirectly a call
to not bear children too.
And so, I guess that's the tension I feel there.
(Incomplete thought)
Just think with me here.
He's clearly indicating that
for the sake of serving the Lord,
it would be best not to be married.
You can be more fully devoted to the Lord then.
I would say if a married couple
didn't have children,
and seriously they were concerned
about serving the Lord,
and they weren't having the children
in order to serve the Lord in a certain capacity,
is there a place to use Paul's same argumentation
to make that case?
It's an off-handed way,
and I recognize he directly did not say that.
And then I recognize you also have
the other aspect
that you have a man and a woman
and the two are supposed to be
giving their bodies to one another.
Typically, the natural result of that is children.
And obviously some unnatural action
has to be taken,
to prevent that from happening.
It's the kind of thing that I think
we all have to wrestle with these questions
and we have to come to a place
(incomplete thought)
It's kind of like Romans 14
where Paul is saying that
let everyone be persuaded in his own mind.
We want people that are convinced.
And so you want to wrestle through.
And the thing we have to be honest about,
is really seriously looking
at what Scripture says
and what God's will is -
not just what our will is.
Not just going in with our will
already made up
or our lifestyle already determined
in our own minds.
And then we're just looking
for the way to validate our lifestyle.
This doesn't just end.
It's be fruitful and multiply.
And so, the question doesn't only come up
with whether you have any children;
it comes up again after you've had one,
or two, or three, or four...
Every family in the church is wrestling with this.
And look, this question comes up
and all you have to do is talk
to the men and the women,
and what you're getting is
some families, they're going on to six and seven;
And some you see four, five, six...
they stop.
And there's no more.
Why?
Something happened?
And not only has something happened,
decisions are being made.
And people are wrestling with God's Word,
and they're wrestling with the truth here.
I would say in our church
those who believe that you should
keep having children until God stops
giving them to you
are the exception.
I personally only know of like 2 or 3
that have taken that position.
It's just something we all have to wrestle with.
I can tell you this,
when I got to the point where
I wrestled with it,
it's like the Lord just gave me
a sense of peace.
And I know that's very subjective,
but look, I wanted ten children
from the very beginning.
My wife can tell you that.
And when the time came
and I sought the Lord in the matter,
it wasn't like there was even a wrestling.
As much as I wanted ten children,
it was like the Lord just affirmed it
that it was right to stop there.
And I know that's very subjective.
But a lot of this is going to be.
We have to wrestle
through these things,
and we have to take it before the Lord.
I'll tell you this.
If you go before the Lord,
and your will is surrendered,
you really want His will.
You really do.
That doesn't mean you don't have preferences.
But you're really surrendered.
The Lord's going to guide you.
The Lord will take you in the path
that you need to go.
The Lord will make things obvious.
He'll bring the right counselors.
He'll bring the right Scripture
to bear on your conscience.
You just cry out to Him.
You keep your conscience guided
and immersed in Scripture all the time.
Scripture, Scripture, Scripture...
the last thing you need to be doing
is talking to your worldly relatives
or your worldly co-workers.
That's not what guides conscience.
It's Scripture.
It's God's Word
just washing your mind,
washing, washing, washing.
Being renewed, being renewed.
Being guided by a sense of God's will
and God's purpose.
And you know, I'm studying Scripture
all the time.
I can tell you from the time that we had Joy until now,
I would have liked to have had more children.
But I've never second guessed
whether we did the right thing or not.
After all the studying of Scripture,
it's not like, oh, you know this cloud
that we did the wrong thing.
We sought the Lord.
I believe the Lord guided us.
(from the room)
You don't need to give details, but weren't there objective reasons?
Not just subjective?
Tim: Yes, there were.
I mean I went through all the objective -
the objective reasons.
Basically, we had a newborn,
a one year old, a three year old,
and a five year old.
And you know, a lot of times
when families were like that,
they had nannies and stuff.
We didn't have that.
We didn't have anybody.
(Incomplete thought)
And I was working full time as an engineer,
trying to be involved in the ministry,
we lived out in the country
and we were in the woods,
so I was clearing trees
and putting water lines in.
I'd come home from work
and go right out.
A lot of times,
I wouldn't change my work clothes.
I'd just put my boots on
and straight out to try to get
every bit of daylight I could
out of the day.
And Ruby's got, I think,
two in diapers,
plus a three year old and a five year old.
And now, with the five year old,
homeschooling starts.
And she's just wiped out.
She said I have to start home schooling now
and can we please stop?
You know, that coming at a guy
that over and over and over,
if she told you how many times
I said we're having ten kids,
I probably said it
ten times ten times ten times.
I'd tell it to everybody.
We're having ten kids.
And so when she came in
it was like,
I don't know if she thought
she was going to get hesitation,
but it was just like the Lord confirmed it
that it was out of love for my wife.
What time do we have?
Brethren, I'll tell you this.
The families in the church
that are convinced that they need
to keep having children,
I don't try to unconvince them.
Those who take: be fruitful and multiply
and they feel like that is a commandment
of God to them to keep having children,
amen.
We all have to wrestle though these things,
and what I want is a church
full of people with conviction.
What I want is people who know
why they're doing what they do.
That's Romans 14.
And you know what's interesting
about Romans 14?
Is some people keep the day, some people don't keep the day.
Some people eat the meat, some people don't eat the meat.
Not everybody's doing the same thing.
But Paul said I want you all convinced.
In other words,
I want you all to be people of conviction.
You say, well, is that safe?
Having a church full of people with conviction
when sometimes when their convictions aren't right?
Or when their convictions don't line up?
Well yeah, that's healthy.
That doesn't mean you should have
a conviction about the Trinity
that's different from all the rest of us.
It doesn't mean you have different thoughts
on justification by faith.
We're not talking about that.
We're talking about number of children;
we're talking about meat;
we're talking about observing days,
not observing a day.
We're talking about things like that.
And we should have a people
full of conviction.
Because what is a people full of conviction?
It means they're exercising their discernment.
They're finding out the good and the bad.
What that tells you is
you're getting mature people.
And it all the more reflects the maturity
when I strongly believe that I can have
four children,
and you strongly believe
that you should keep having children
till your wife is dead,
and we can both look at each other
and hug each other
and say, "Hi, brother."
And I'm not saying that there's any men
in the church that would go that far.
Ok.
Father, we pray make us a people
of the Word.
Make us people of the Book.
People that it could be said of us,
Lord, I think of Bunyan,
it was said of him
that you could cut him anywhere
and he would bleed Scripture.
And Lord, I know when people have
moved here to our church
they oftentimes are amazed
at how even the youngest believers
among us know so much Scripture.
And Lord, I pray that would just
continue all the more.
Lord, not to puff us up.
But may we know the Scriptures truly
in a way that humbles us;
in a way that we see Your glory;
in a way that our God is big, Lord;
in a way that our lives would be
guided by that lamp unto our feet.
Please, guide us by Your Word, Lord.
We pray in Christ's name,
Amen.