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35C3 - Feminist Perspectives

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    35C3 preroll music
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    Herald: I will now hand over the
    microphone to our moderator, Geraldine De
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    Bastion, who apart from the French name
    does not speak French.
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    Thank you very much.
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    laughter
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    Geraldine De Bastion: Thank you so much
    for having me here and hopefully enough
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    English to moderate the session. Hi
    everybody. My name is Geraldine and I'm
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    very proud to be moderating this session.
    Maybe a few words to kick off with;
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    usually sessions at CCC come together
    because one person or team of people hand
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    in a topic that they feel they would like
    to talk about here on one of these stages.
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    This session came together because several
    people handed in sessions where they
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    wanted to address how they're trying to
    build communities or spaces that are
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    specifically feminist, diverse, and
    inclusive. And we thought it would be a
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    great idea to give not just one person who
    handed in a session, or two people, but
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    all the people who handed in sessions on
    this topic the stage. So this is how the
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    session came together: by us grouping
    together different submissions on the
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    topic. And so I'm very happy that we have
    five very interesting and excellent humans
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    here to speak on the topic matter and will
    be presenting their different approaches
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    and their different strategies to building
    feminist spaces and communities. And I'd
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    like to welcome them here on stage. So
    first off we have Hong Phuc who runs FOSS
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    Asia, which is a community in
    Asia/Southeast Asia for developing
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    software and hardware specifically open
    source. Welcome Hong!
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    applause
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    GdB: We have Azam and Sarah from Le RESET,
    which is a feminist
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    queer hackerspace.
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    applause
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    GdB: Welcome! We have Em O'Sullivan former
    hackerspace and maker fair organizer, now
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    researching how to improve women and non
    binary people's engagement in maker a
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    spaces. Welcome Em!
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    applause
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    GdB: And last but not least we have Lena
    Mohr, who is a UX designer from Stuttgart,
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    started an initiative called Ready to
    Code, teaching young girls to code.
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    Welcome Lena.
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    applause
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    GdB: And as I said, my name is Geraldine
    de Bastion. I run a community called the
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    Global Innovation Gathering, which is a
    network of different maker spaces, hacker
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    spaces, different kind of innovation,
    makers and innovators across the world. So
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    a quick housekeeping note for the session.
    The format is that we're going to give
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    each of the teams here on stage the
    opportunity to present their work to you
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    in about seven to 10 minutes, and then
    we'll get to gather here to discuss the
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    difference and the likenesses in
    approaches and in perspectives,
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    experiences and ideas. And then we would
    like to invite you all to join this
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    discussion and open the floor. So to kick
    things off I would invite you first to
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    share a little bit the story of FOSS Asia
    and your work at the last 10 years, Hong.
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    Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. I did not
    expect that I would go first, but that's
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    okay.
    shuffling
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    There we go.
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    Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so hello everyone!
    My name is Hong Phuc Dang, or HP Dang if
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    you want to look for me on the web. So
    today I will talk about how I get involved
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    in open source community in the first
    place, and also some highlights of my work
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    at FOSS Asia during the past 10 years.
    Before that a little bit about my
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    background. I was born and grew up in a
    small town in South Vietnam. It is called
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    Can Tho, I don't know if any of you have
    been there before, but it's about 200
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    kilometers south of Hoh Chi Minh City.
    This is my first 20 years of my life, so
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    I've been always there, feel like a
    confusing little girl because I keep
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    wondering what I really want to achieve in
    my life. My family, my parents were not
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    so... were poor at that time. In 1987,
    most of the families there were poor due
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    to the war. We just finished the war and
    then the reform of Vietnam. My parents
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    been working very hard so that me and my
    sister could have a better future. And the
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    only motivation that I have in my life
    until I was 20: to get a very good job
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    somewhere after graduation, so that I can
    earn some money, take care of my parents,
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    and be able to afford something that I
    could never have when I was a kid. So this
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    is what I was thinking when I got to 20
    years old. I went to school, I studied
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    super super hard but I never had really
    interested in school and I also don't
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    understand so much what I learn and get
    out of school. I just know that if I study
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    hard I would have a good future. In 2007 I
    met Mario Behling who later on became my
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    mentor and also a partner later on. Not on
    Tinder, but at a free event, a free
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    technology event in Hanoi. In 2007 it was
    the first time I learned about free
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    software. In the same year, I switched
    from Windows XP to Ubuntu and started to
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    use open source. And then so I started to
    involve with different user groups in the
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    region, and also contribute small bits,
    like localization into some software
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    project. At the same time I also learned
    how to submit a bug report, make an issue
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    to different projects. And by involving in
    the open source community I got to meet so
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    many interesting people that inspire me.
    So I always have very cool conversation
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    with people who've been involved in one
    project for over 15, 20 years. That really
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    inspired me, how people can be so
    persistent and continuously work on
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    something for so long. And when they talk
    about their job, is so positive and
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    energetic. Even though it keeps repeating,
    but they're very patient and when I joined
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    the community it's so good that people
    always like very patient and took their
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    time to explain to you when you don't
    understand something. So two years later
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    in 2009, Mario and I decided to found the
    FOSS Asia organization. So FOSS Asia, the
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    goal of FOSS Asia is to bring together an
    inspired community across Asia, a lot of
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    different communities to view a better
    future with open technologies. Since then
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    we have developed so many different
    projects with the FOSS Asia communities.
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    These are some of the software and also
    hardware projects that we've been working
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    on. SUSI.AI is an alternative to Alexa or
    Google Home, and Pocket Science Lab is our
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    newly released open hardware project. You
    can find all the projects on Github of
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    FOSS Asia actually. Eventyay is an event
    solution that's similar to what you have
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    here, the[unclear][???], just scheduling
    and also ticket selling open source did
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    entirely by the FOSS Asia community. We
    also organize a lot of events, conferences
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    and meet-ups throughout our regions. One
    of our biggest events is the FOSS Asia
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    Summit, happens every year in March in
    Singapore. Throughout the year we also
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    have smaller workshops and events in
    China, in India, Vietnam, Indonesia,
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    Malaysia and many other places. Some of
    the highlights of my last 10 years. In
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    2010 it was my first time into Europe. It
    was so difficult to get a visa to come
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    here. I know, for many of you, but it was
    a big thing for me to enter Europe for the
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    first time. I got invited to the Libre
    Graphics meeting. This is the photo taken
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    when I was giving a talk. You can see it,
    I was super nervous at that time. And the
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    next picture, after the talk I went to
    dinner with a group of friends, the people
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    from the Libre Graphics communities. I was
    the only girl but I did not realize that
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    until somebody comment on my Facebook, why
    you was the only girl in the picture. But
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    it was really cool and very welcoming in
    the community. 2012 we built a hotel in
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    our hometown Can Tho, and we labelled it
    the Open Source hotel. You can look up,
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    Hotel Xoai is the name of the place. So
    basically it's built by the Open Source
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    community member. So we set up the
    wireless network with OpenWRT. I did
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    the entire wiring for the telephone
    myself. I did it for three weeks but I was
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    very proud of it and we have the
    declaration inside the hotel is donated to
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    us by the Libre Graphics community, so by
    some artists in that community. And in
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    this space we hosted a lot of workshops
    and we hosted many open source
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    contributors in our place. So we have dDebian
    developers, we have GIMP contributers, we
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    have people from all over the world to
    come and stay with us in this space here
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    in Vietnam. In the same year I also hosted
    the group of artists and designers that I
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    met in Brussels in 2010 in Hoh Chi Minh
    City. So we did an open source design week
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    in Saigon, and surprisingly more than 40%
    of the participants are female. So what we
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    did in this design week, we showed people
    how to make artwork with free tools, with
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    free software, and at the end we also made
    an exhibition, what kind of work that you
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    can do with free software. And 2014 it was
    my first time attending the CCC, and this
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    is the first person that I met in the
    speaker room, who spend several minutes of
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    his valuable time to explain to me what is
    the difference between free software and
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    open source.
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    laughter
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    Hong Phuc Dang: But I was very happy I was
    also a speaker at that time, so we got a
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    photo together. 2016 we launch Code Heat
    Program, which is an online coding
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    programme done by the FOSS Asia community.
    So the goal of this program is to help
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    young developers and contributors to start
    to work in open source software and how to
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    become an active contributor to open
    source. So we have our FOSS Asia members
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    to guide them, so everything happenes on
    GitHub, we have GitHub channels where
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    people can post questions. And at the end
    the winners will win a trip to the FOSS
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    Asia Summit and present about their
    working experience during the programme.
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    2018. So we released our Pocket Science
    Lab to the market. So the project been
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    going on for the past two years and we
    will finally produce them in China and now
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    started to distribute them all over the
    world. So we have a shop in Japan which
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    has sold out in two days. We also
    distributed in India, in Singapore, in
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    Europe and it's been piloting in school in
    Singapore, in India and also in Vietnam.
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    So basically it's a small device that
    helps you to make science experiments.
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    It's an oscilloscope with logic analyzer and
    many different functions. We have a
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    workshop here as well at the CCC if you
    want to find out more. Okay some of my
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    approach and lesson learned for the
    question about what strategy that you do
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    to engage many people in the community and
    how to rear the communitiy. So what I
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    learned from the past 10 years: The first
    thing is to be sincere with whoever you
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    meet. That how my reaction in the
    community to be sincere with people, and
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    empower the people in the community. Just
    like when I first joined the community,
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    the more responsibility to give to people,
    they feel empower and they, it's also
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    better to scale up the community.
    Motivation; in order to work with people
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    and to find the right approach you need to
    understand the motivation behind
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    individuals and it's really important to
    rear the community. And my philosophy is
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    it always better by sharing. So we share
    our knowledge, that what's the reason we
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    are here – we share our resources and we
    bring people together. Finally, in the
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    FOSS Asia community, I made friends. Their
    friendship is important over the years and
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    I know that the people I've been working
    with or engaged with will be friends for
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    life – so that is a good thing about the
    free software community. And next year
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    2009 will be our 10-year milestone of the
    FOSS Asia organization. We have a big
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    celebration in Singapore between March 14
    and 17. If you happen to be there or you
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    plan a trip to Asia you are very welcome
    to join us. The website 2019.fossasia.org.
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    And here at the CCC we have a group of
    FOSS Asia member flew in from Singapore,
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    from France, from Spain and also in
    Germany. We have a laser cutter here,
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    built by a FOSS Asia member in Singapore,
    open source laser cutter. The small
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    picture here is [???] carrying it and is
    at our FOSS Asia assembly if you want to
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    check it out. If you want to get in touch
    with us, or you want to look for me at the
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    end of the talk, you can search on the
    navigation app for FOSS Asia and our
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    number is a 8575. Thank you.
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    applause
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    GdB: Thank you very much Hong for that
    introduction into FOSS Asia and your work.
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    Azam, Sarah, would
    you like to go next to present Le RESET?
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    Le Reset speaker (left): Okay so we both
    come from France. We are part of Le RESET,
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    which is a feminist and queer hacker space
    and we're going to explain a little bit
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    what we are doing, why we're doing it and
    how. So our hacker space welcomes actively
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    people who usually do not feel safe or
    included in many other hacker spaces. So
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    mostly queer persons and women, because
    most of straight men feel really entitled
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    to learn and share what they learn and
    teach everything. And on the other side
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    you have queer persons and women who have
    major imposter syndrome when it comes to
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    technology. We observe these things and
    also that the solutions to fix all issues
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    are also designed by straight men so they
    are not adequate with our issues and that
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    we have a big lack of transmission in our
    communities. So as we were to the geeky
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    ones around queers and queer ones around
    geeks we did Le RESET to have a space that
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    is the intersection of queer and geek
    people. So it takes place in a queer bar
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    in Paris every Sunday. And I'm really
    scared, I'm sorry. We started in 2016 and
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    we speak directly to women and queers so
    that they feel welcome and included and
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    would come to our space. We built a code
    of conduct that we may discuss further,
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    that we embody so we endorse it and not
    just write it somewhere. So our basis are
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    feminist ethics based on the "Ethics of
    Care" by Joan Tronto. We do workshops for
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    beginners every session and we really
    insist on the things for beginners. The
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    workshops are mainly hosted by queer or
    women and we do not treat differently
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    infosec, coding, gaming, crafts, care
    practice and all the things we do not make
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    a hierarchy. We analyzed the board
    dynamics with material feminism and
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    most of our projects are cyber feminists.
    Le Reset speaker (right): So I'm going to
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    talk a little more about some projects
    that we have at Le Reset, what is it, so I
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    took three different examples. The best
    example is the crypto bar. So it's
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    basically a one on one crypto party with
    just one person as they were launched by
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    Asher Wolf and those security talks, they
    are menu oriented toward cyber harassment
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    because women and queer people usually ask
    us about security issues when they have
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    trouble with cyber harassment. And so we
    have identified it to be the main threat
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    model for us, and not like the NSA or
    something else. Another example of a
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    project that we have is "everything about
    health reappropriation". So as women and
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    queers our health is often in the hands of
    doctors that don't explain stuff to us or
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    that don't do what we want them to do with
    our health because they have norms that
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    we're supposed to follow. And so we work
    around. We work with transgender people
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    around hormones and also with trans people
    and women around gynecology. And so we
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    have a partnership with women doing self
    gynecology workshops. So we create zines
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    and we share knowledge and practices about
    those and we also have a lab project that
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    is inspired by the je ne peine club from
    Calafou and also by
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    the Open Source estrogen project by Mary
    Maggic that was presented in the CCC last
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    year [https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9036-ope
    n_source_estrogen]. And so the goal of
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    this lab project is to take and analyze
    our own cervical smear so that we can do
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    an our own analysis with it. And the third
    project I wanted to talk about was "the
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    queer games". So the queer games is an
    artistic and political movement that was
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    initiated by an Entrepeneur Mattie
    Brice. So the idea is that they're using
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    game design as a tool to criticize
    oppression systems. And so we're doing
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    monthly queer games workshops in order to
    empower queer people. We empower them
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    through rendering our own narratives
    visible through video games and also by
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    learning skills to make our own video
    games, even though most people who come
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    don't have any idea of how to code, so we
    also learn coding through it.
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    GdB: Thank you very much
    applause
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    GdB: Thank you for that introduction into
    your work. I think a lot of points raised
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    that we're gonna debate also in a minute.
    Em, can I ask you to go next.
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    Em O'Sullivan: I didn't have any slides
    but I do have some notes and my story is
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    maybe a bit different to my other
    panelists because I don't come from a
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    specifically feminist organization. I live
    in Brighton in the UK and our hackerspace
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    is called Build Brighton. It started in
    2009 so it was a fairly early hackerspace
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    in the UK. It grew out of an existing
    meetup that was focused on robotics and
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    some of the people involved in that group
    decided to set up their own hackerspace.
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    So it began fairly organically. It was
    inspired largely by the early U.S. hacker
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    spaces in particular Mitch Altman visited
    the robotics meetup when he was in
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    Brighton and basically said, "hey you look
    like the kind of group who should start a
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    hackerspace" and that kind of triggered
    the idea to go and set one up. So, it
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    followed the same kind of ad hoc kind of
    democracy structure. It had some informal
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    leaders but things were kind of largely
    decided by group consensus. For example
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    when we first moved into our own dedicated
    space, we spent the first couple of years
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    meeting once a week in a coworking space
    and then in 2011 had an opportunity to get
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    our own workshop and the decision about
    whether to do that was put to the entire
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    membership around whether we wanted to
    take on that responsibility, those extra
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    costs and that decision was passed by
    consensus and that's kind of how things
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    have typically been done. In terms of
    activities there's a lot of electronics
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    projects typically, especially with it
    going out to robotics group. The laser
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    cutter has always been really popular and
    was one of the first tools that was bought
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    by the group. And we've recently had lots
    of wood work workers coming in because we
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    do have a fairly well-developed wood
    working shop. In terms of gender diversity
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    is also a fairly typical hackerspace.
    There's currently 115 members of which
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    around 10 to 15 percent are women or femme
    presenting people and the aim of that
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    statistic isn't to point out like how low
    this representation is in this particular
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    space. It's to highlight that this is a
    typical number for a hackerspace. For me
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    personally, a bit like Hong Phuc said, I'm
    used to being in masculine spaces like I
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    trained in media production originally
    which is very male dominated. Then when I
  • 22:59 - 23:05
    went to work in IT it was normal for me to
    be at events that were mainly men and I
  • 23:05 - 23:11
    suppose I just got used to this and it
    became invisible to me. At the time I was
  • 23:11 - 23:15
    working for a software development company
    in Brighton and the company had two
  • 23:15 - 23:20
    offices one for the technical team and one
    for the rest of the staff. So like admin
  • 23:20 - 23:26
    team, production team, HR, finance and so
    on. My desk was in the tech room and I
  • 23:26 - 23:30
    looked up one day and realized that I was
    the only femme presenting person in a room
  • 23:30 - 23:36
    of 20 men. It took that to kind of dropped
    me back into realizing how weird the
  • 23:36 - 23:42
    situation was and I also realized that
    "Build Brighton", my hackspace, was a
  • 23:42 - 23:48
    similar environments as well. And I became
    really interested in why this was
  • 23:48 - 23:53
    happening, because hacker spaces they are
    theoretically open environments, like our
  • 23:53 - 23:58
    space anyone can join. Membership is on a
    pay what you can basis from five pounds a
  • 23:58 - 24:04
    month. So the financial cost to entry are
    very low. But we are still seeing the same
  • 24:04 - 24:09
    issues as in other technology environments
    and that's women and femme people were
  • 24:09 - 24:16
    very underrepresented. I saw this as a
    useful opportunity to look at the cultural
  • 24:16 - 24:22
    issues that continue to prevent women's
    engagement in technology spaces even when
  • 24:22 - 24:27
    some of those structural and financial
    barriers have been removed. And the reason
  • 24:27 - 24:32
    this was really important to me as a topic
    was because like for me personally joining
  • 24:32 - 24:37
    my hackerspace was an extremely empowering
    experience. I didn't have much experience
  • 24:37 - 24:42
    before with DIY, with hardware, with
    working with materials, and joining that
  • 24:42 - 24:46
    community and having access to those tools
    and that knowledge had a huge impact on
  • 24:46 - 24:51
    how I see the world around me, on my
    confidence to fix and adapt things when I
  • 24:51 - 24:56
    need to and I really want more people to
    have access to that empowerment.
  • 24:56 - 25:01
    Especially people who don't necessarily
    have existing experience with technology.
  • 25:01 - 25:08
    So in 2016 I began my PhD looking at how
    some hacker spaces and maker spaces have
  • 25:08 - 25:12
    been more successful than others in
    engaging women and femme people. I'm
  • 25:12 - 25:16
    currently still in the data collection
    phase of my research, but I visited
  • 25:16 - 25:20
    various hacker spaces and maker spaces
    around Europe and the US, spoken to lots
  • 25:20 - 25:26
    of people from these spaces and seen a
    wide range of approaches to dealing with
  • 25:26 - 25:33
    gender diversity, ranging from acute
    hostility towards any suggestion of
  • 25:33 - 25:37
    specifically trying to engage women, right
    through to spaces that have made this a
  • 25:37 - 25:43
    core part of that group culture. So I hope
    that range of perspectives can come in
  • 25:43 - 25:48
    useful to discussion today. And I'm also
    currently putting together a zine with
  • 25:48 - 25:53
    contributions from hacker spaces and maker
    spaces that have developed inclusive
  • 25:53 - 25:57
    practices, not necessarily focused on
    gender but also on engaging other
  • 25:57 - 26:02
    underrepresented groups like people of
    color, people with disabilities, people
  • 26:02 - 26:07
    with lower socio economic statuses because
    I think it's really important that those
  • 26:07 - 26:12
    practices are publicized as widely as
    possible so that other spaces can learn
  • 26:12 - 26:15
    from them. So if any of you have any
    suggestions about spaces that should be
  • 26:15 - 26:22
    included in that zine please do email me.
    My contact details are on the Fahrplan and
  • 26:22 - 26:33
    I would love to hear about any spaces that
    you could recommend.
  • 26:33 - 26:43
    GdB: Thank you! And last but not least Lena.
    Lena Mohr: I'm Lena, I'm one of the three
  • 26:43 - 26:47
    founders of "ready to code". We are an
    organization based based in Stuttgart in
  • 26:47 - 26:56
    the south of Germany. Our story started...
    so know first what we do is we inspire
  • 26:56 - 27:01
    women and girls to learn how to code and
    to work in tech and support each other.
  • 27:01 - 27:07
    There are two main reasons why we do what
    we do. I think the first one is quite
  • 27:07 - 27:12
    obvious that there are not enough women
    who work in tech, and the second one is
  • 27:12 - 27:17
    more personal because I am a user
    experience designer, and part of my
  • 27:17 - 27:21
    studies was learning how to code and I
    found it extremely difficult because I had
  • 27:21 - 27:27
    all these biases and pictures in my head
    and I just knew that I was going to fail
  • 27:27 - 27:34
    at coding before I ever wrote my first
    line of code. I was not alone with this. I
  • 27:34 - 27:42
    saw this and a lot of my friends and a lot
    of the girls who studied with me. And the
  • 27:42 - 27:47
    good news is that we had to pass the exam
    so we sort of had to learn it. and I also
  • 27:47 - 27:54
    had really great and really patient
    friends who not only taught me to code and
  • 27:54 - 28:00
    taught me the facts but also convinced me
    that I was able to do that. And the moment
  • 28:00 - 28:05
    when you clicked like you said that was a
    really empowering moment, because I felt
  • 28:05 - 28:11
    like the not only the knowledge opened a
    whole new world of opportunities, but also
  • 28:11 - 28:15
    the self-confidence that I gained through
    that. And that is what we also want to
  • 28:15 - 28:23
    share with other women and girls. So what
    we do is we run workshops for women and
  • 28:23 - 28:31
    for girls and like Le Reset we make sure
    that they are for a beginner so everyone
  • 28:31 - 28:35
    can participate, and I think we're
    probably going to talk about that as well
  • 28:35 - 28:41
    a little bit further. And we also have a
    networking event that's called cocktails
  • 28:41 - 28:49
    and code where women in tech can meet and
    connect and share their experiences and we
  • 28:49 - 28:53
    organize lightning talks from female
    speakers so yeah people who are new to
  • 28:53 - 29:00
    tech can come and it's fairly low level
    and everyone can participate. And we also
  • 29:00 - 29:04
    organize different events. For example a
    couple of weeks ago we organized a social
  • 29:04 - 29:10
    hackathon on and I think what we do a
    little bit different is that one of our
  • 29:10 - 29:18
    founders is a guy, a straight cis guy. So
    a lot of the volunteers that are working
  • 29:18 - 29:26
    for us are also male and we had a lot of
    good experiences with this because we
  • 29:26 - 29:30
    think it's important to include everyone.
    But we talked a little bit before and I
  • 29:30 - 29:34
    think we're going to have a discussion
    about that afterwards as well, that a lot
  • 29:34 - 29:41
    of women who come to us are also looking
    for females only space, so they really
  • 29:41 - 29:46
    appreciate a safer space where they can
    just be around other women.
  • 29:46 - 29:59
    GdB: Thank you very much, Lena. So as
    you've heard we have very different work
  • 29:59 - 30:04
    rounds that say very different rooms of
    experiences. And we'd like to just jump
  • 30:04 - 30:08
    right into discussion. We're going to take
    about 15, 20 minutes to discuss a little
  • 30:08 - 30:13
    bit amongst ourselves before opening and
    including all of you in the debate. So
  • 30:13 - 30:18
    let's pick up straight the point that you
    closed with and I'd like you to join in
  • 30:18 - 30:24
    but I think I'll direct the question at
    you first. Sometimes we have to, or it
  • 30:24 - 30:30
    seems that way, we'd have to be exclusive
    in order to increase inclusion or
  • 30:30 - 30:34
    fairness. And if I understood you
    correctly you've created a space that
  • 30:34 - 30:40
    doesn't necessarily exclude anybody but it
    doesn't put straight men in the focus. Can
  • 30:40 - 30:43
    you explain a little bit exactly how you
    try to shape that community that you're
  • 30:43 - 30:48
    working with and where you're where you
    drew the line of inclusion and exclusion
  • 30:48 - 30:55
    in your approach.
    Le Reset speaker (right): So we have a
  • 30:55 - 31:00
    code of conduct. Everybody is welcome to
    come into hackerspace as long as they
  • 31:00 - 31:07
    apply to the code of conduct. So we are
    open to everyone but everything that we
  • 31:07 - 31:12
    organize is directed to queer people and
    women. So our communication is oriented
  • 31:12 - 31:19
    towards them. The workshops organized also
    by queer people and women. So basically we
  • 31:19 - 31:22
    just don't care about straight men.
    Gdb: But they can come.
  • 31:22 - 31:32
    Le Reset speaker (right): They can come.
    (laughter and applause)
  • 31:32 - 31:33
    Gdb: Lena you said one of your founders is
  • 31:33 - 31:38
    a straight man, so that's something that
    you do that you do differently.
  • 31:38 - 31:42
    Lena: We just started a year ago so we are
    also still trying our different
  • 31:42 - 31:48
    approaches. And I like what you said that,
    I think you mentioned that they are
  • 31:48 - 31:57
    invited if they want to come but you're
    not marketing for them. You saw our logo.
  • 31:57 - 32:04
    And in the first workshop that we ran for
    kids we said it's only for girls. And the
  • 32:04 - 32:08
    second one we said we have reserving a
    number of seats for girls because we want
  • 32:08 - 32:13
    to increase diversity and no boy signed
    up. So from now on we're not even putting
  • 32:13 - 32:20
    it's only for girls on our flyers but
    because it looks so girly no boys
  • 32:20 - 32:24
    interested in joining us apparently and I
    think that's interesting because usually
  • 32:24 - 32:29
    it works the other way around so probably
    subconsciously or unconsciously it's
  • 32:29 - 32:37
    posters or websites look like they're made
    for boys or for guys and women don't feel
  • 32:37 - 32:43
    attrackted to it. And we do it the other
    way around and it works quite well. But
  • 32:43 - 32:48
    yeah. But we also have men that are asking
    us like "Oh we we also like cocktails and
  • 32:48 - 32:54
    code, Why can't we join?" And it's like
    yeah of course you can. You're welcome. We
  • 32:54 - 32:57
    didn't have any negative experience with
    it so far.
  • 32:57 - 33:01
    GdB [to Em O'Sullivan]: you're going to be
    our academic sounding board at this panel.
  • 33:01 - 33:06
    In the research that you've conducted, do
    you see certain kinds of trends emerging
  • 33:06 - 33:13
    or sort of maybe perhaps as a strength of
    certain strategies of those hacker spaces
  • 33:13 - 33:20
    or communities or programs that try to
    specifically target not straight men but
  • 33:20 - 33:25
    other communities. On the question of "how
    exclusive do you have to be, to be
  • 33:25 - 33:30
    inclusive".
    Em O'Sullivan: So, I've been to spaces
  • 33:30 - 33:34
    that are women only or women and non
    binary people only, and they're really
  • 33:34 - 33:40
    important for getting over the question of
    "is it just that women aren't interested"
  • 33:40 - 33:44
    which is something that I've encountered
    in a few spaces. It's like well you know
  • 33:44 - 33:47
    we're not excluding women they just don't
    seem to be interested. They're not coming
  • 33:47 - 33:50
    here. And then when you provide a women
    only space and women go there, then you
  • 33:50 - 33:53
    can point to that and go: Well okay that's
    just not true. That must be something
  • 33:53 - 33:58
    about these other spaces that isn't
    including them. But then the next step is
  • 33:58 - 34:03
    how do you get that inclusion to work in
    an all gender space. Because, we live in
  • 34:03 - 34:08
    an all gender world. And how do you it
    take out of those safe spaces and take it
  • 34:08 - 34:16
    into other environments and that there
    does need to be a specific aim to be
  • 34:16 - 34:22
    inclusive. It's interesting that you say
    it's like, we don't exclude men. We just
  • 34:22 - 34:29
    kind of don't focus stuff on them. And
    that seems to be the approach of maker
  • 34:29 - 34:33
    spaces, and hacker spaces in general.
    Except there's no recognition of that.
  • 34:33 - 34:36
    There's that, well, we don't exclude
    women. You know, they're just not here.
  • 34:36 - 34:39
    Like, they could come here and there's not
    the recognition that all of their
  • 34:39 - 34:43
    presentation, like all of the their
    culture, from the outside looks like it's
  • 34:43 - 34:47
    geared towards men. And so of course
    that's the kind of people that they
  • 34:47 - 34:51
    attract. But yeah, they haven't made that
    decision, it's just what they're doing and
  • 34:51 - 34:56
    there's no recognition of it. So yeah, to
    change that there does have to be a
  • 34:56 - 34:59
    recognition that if you want to attract
    people from different groups then you do
  • 34:59 - 35:04
    need to reach out and specifically engage
    them. it's not going to just happen by
  • 35:04 - 35:07
    itself.
    GdB: Thank you. Hong, how has it been for
  • 35:07 - 35:14
    you in the last 10 years of managing FOSS
    Asia? Because, there's another level that
  • 35:14 - 35:18
    comes in. You do this across different
    cultures and across different countries
  • 35:18 - 35:24
    within Southeast Asia. How do you find
    that it's developed over the last 10
  • 35:24 - 35:30
    years, and how much do you have to put an
    emphasis on trying to bring in not just
  • 35:30 - 35:33
    women, but perhaps also people from
    different backgrounds into your community.
  • 35:33 - 35:39
    Hong Phuc Dang: So, if you look at
    Southeast Asia, and I look at and FOSS
  • 35:39 - 35:45
    Asian community we find diverse and
    inclusive. It would take forever to talk
  • 35:45 - 35:49
    about of different cultures from
    Singapore, Malaysia. It's also related to
  • 35:49 - 35:56
    the religions and the culture of each
    country. But, could I ask the Le RESET
  • 35:56 - 36:01
    hackerspace a question? I was curious. I
    kind of have the same opinion with Em. I
  • 36:01 - 36:07
    was curious, was there any experience in
    the past that motivated you to create a
  • 36:07 - 36:14
    base that or focus more on women instead
    of men. Is there any bad experience, an
  • 36:14 - 36:20
    incident that occurred to you?
    Le Reset speaker: Yes, of course.
  • 36:20 - 36:24
    Hong Phuc Dang: Could you share a little
    bit about it? Because, I always say I,
  • 36:24 - 36:28
    fought it passive, you know that maybe I
    was lucky, because in our community I
  • 36:28 - 36:34
    haven't experienced that much of a kind of
    incident that make me feel that I need a
  • 36:34 - 36:39
    space for myself. Because when I joined
    the open source community, I feel that
  • 36:39 - 36:45
    everyone's very welcome, and also people
    don't look at you as who you are. People
  • 36:45 - 36:48
    always look at your work and your
    contribution to the community. So,
  • 36:48 - 36:51
    sometimes you're in a conversation and you
    don't even realize that you are with a
  • 36:51 - 36:57
    bunch of other people from Europe or men.
    You focus on the topic, and the work that
  • 36:57 - 37:02
    you do. So I'm curious to learn about the
    incident that you had before.
  • 37:02 - 37:07
    Le Reset speaker (left): I have a few
    examples if you want, but I think it's not
  • 37:07 - 37:12
    about what you can do or not, that it's
    about coming in the space and you feeling
  • 37:12 - 37:20
    that you can come here and stay and be
    well welcomed. So, as a woman actually...
  • 37:20 - 37:31
    I'm sorry I'm a little sick. The people
    were asking if I came with my boyfriend,
  • 37:31 - 37:37
    where he was. So, they were wondering what
    I was doing here, because I was a woman.
  • 37:37 - 37:42
    So, sorry, I don't have any boyfriend,
    will never have one, but many girlfriends.
  • 37:42 - 37:54
    So, no. And also, I was waiting to do lock
    picking and waiting in the line to do
  • 37:54 - 37:58
    that. When I came to the tools the guy
    said: Oh sorry, you have to leave the
  • 37:58 - 38:05
    place for the guy, because I was just here
    to look not to try. Many things like that.
  • 38:05 - 38:06
    Hong Phuc Dang: Did that lock picking
    happen here at a congress?
  • 38:06 - 38:09
    Le Reset speaker (left): Yeah, I know.
    Hong Phuc Dang: Okay, so now we know what
  • 38:09 - 38:14
    prevent women from joining the tech
    community. So maybe it wasn't intentional?
  • 38:14 - 38:18
    GdB (to Hong Phuc Dang): So you, I mean I
    think it's really interesting what you
  • 38:18 - 38:21
    said, when in your community and
    experience you have you see the code and
  • 38:21 - 38:26
    not the gender. I think a lot of people
    here in the room. I'm guessing it came to
  • 38:26 - 38:29
    the session but also on the panel have had
    really different experiences, but of
  • 38:29 - 38:34
    course this is really positive here. Maybe
    even a little bit surprising to hear,
  • 38:34 - 38:40
    because perhaps that would have been maybe
    a stereotypical perception that in some
  • 38:40 - 38:45
    other societies which are part of
    South/Southeast Asia the very traditional
  • 38:45 - 38:50
    and it's maybe not so typical for women to
    be or people of different backgrounds.
  • 38:50 - 38:53
    Maybe, like I said not just women but also
    people of different educational
  • 38:53 - 38:56
    backgrounds of different cultural
    backgrounds to be part of this community.
  • 38:56 - 39:02
    But of course it's very nice to hear that
    you've had a very different experience.
  • 39:02 - 39:06
    That's I think a keyword that we've heard
    from many of you and you also mentioned
  • 39:06 - 39:11
    your core values is empowerment and
    creating empowerment empowering
  • 39:11 - 39:17
    experiences for others. You've already
    said a little bit about how you try to do
  • 39:17 - 39:21
    that and giving people space to create
    their own narratives. Do you want to share
  • 39:21 - 39:24
    a little bit more, what have been like
    successes for you were you noticed this
  • 39:24 - 39:35
    has been working for your commu nity.
    Lena Mohr: Maybe I could start?
  • 39:35 - 39:39
    Le Reset speaker(right): Go on.
    Lena Mohr: I think one of the women who
  • 39:39 - 39:44
    came to our meetup afterwards. She came to
    us and she was really happy and she said
  • 39:44 - 39:49
    like: "Ok, I have a place where I can be
    among my geek friends and talk about geeky
  • 39:49 - 39:53
    stuff and I have my feminist friends to
    whom I can come and talk about feminist
  • 39:53 - 39:58
    stuff and but I never had both." So I have
    friends and I think it's also important
  • 39:58 - 40:01
    that you mentioned that it wasn't it
    probably wasn't intentional, when someone
  • 40:01 - 40:05
    asks you like: "Hey where's your
    boyfriend?". Maybe it was trying to start
  • 40:05 - 40:07
    a conversation, but that doesn't make it
    any better.
  • 40:07 - 40:09
    Le Reset speaker (left): I'm not sure,
    but...
  • 40:09 - 40:14
    Lena Mohr: Ok, that's even...
    GdB: Yeah, I mean I can also say like I
  • 40:14 - 40:18
    have the same experience regularly and
    it's an... Even in spaces where I've been
  • 40:18 - 40:26
    member for years and that I really love
    dearly and I think you know you sort of at
  • 40:26 - 40:32
    least me, past me I never try to take
    offense, but of course it is offensive and
  • 40:32 - 40:36
    this is something we had a quick chat
    about your level of tolerance for this.
  • 40:36 - 40:43
    The threshold of acceptance is for me at
    least becomes less and less and I think we
  • 40:43 - 40:47
    had a quick conversation and one of the
    keywords was patience. So, when you have
  • 40:47 - 40:53
    tried to sort of, yeah, already create
    spaces that are different for communities
  • 40:53 - 40:57
    like all of ours that are different you
    want... You know, you expect more
  • 40:57 - 41:03
    basically. Expect people to be better at
    this game and things to change faster. So
  • 41:03 - 41:05
    I think the sort of level of frustration
    that builds up when you find it is not
  • 41:05 - 41:11
    changing as you know just as you said in
    your talk. It's shocking to hear that that
  • 41:11 - 41:14
    level of apprehension of including women
    and doing things to actually really
  • 41:14 - 41:19
    support women coming in and making sure
    all parts of society are equally
  • 41:19 - 41:24
    represented is still that strong. Do
    you... Have you looked into like the "why"
  • 41:24 - 41:27
    a little bit in your research.
    Em O'Sullivan: Like something that's
  • 41:27 - 41:33
    really interesting is that, in the absence
    of groups like people with disabilities is
  • 41:33 - 41:42
    more readily seen as something that can be
    helped by changing the space by
  • 41:42 - 41:49
    introducing kind of ramps, wheelchair
    access technologies and rearranging the
  • 41:49 - 41:53
    space, so that it's more accessible. But
    then when it comes to cultural aspects,
  • 41:53 - 41:57
    such as including women, that seen as
    something that's unchangeable. So spaces
  • 41:57 - 42:01
    are often willing to change to be more
    diverse, but they have kind of a mental
  • 42:01 - 42:06
    block on being able to include people like
    women or people of color, who they see as
  • 42:06 - 42:11
    more kind of. There's no way that these
    groups can come and join us. They're just
  • 42:11 - 42:14
    not interested and so like that's a very
    unusual thing to see.
  • 42:14 - 42:20
    GdB: So you mentioned earlier, that you
    have a code of conduct. And... and I think
  • 42:20 - 42:24
    that's, I'd love to hear like, how did you
    develop this code of conduct for your
  • 42:24 - 42:28
    community? And is this sort of a living
    thing? Did you come up with this in the
  • 42:28 - 42:31
    beginning and it's been set like that or
    is it something that you revise and how do
  • 42:31 - 42:35
    you implement it?
    Le Reset speaker (left): Actually it's a
  • 42:35 - 42:43
    really simple code of conduct with 10
    phrases and sentences and it says not to
  • 42:43 - 42:49
    discriminate anybody and to respect
    boundaries and things that are making us
  • 42:49 - 42:58
    all live together well. That's the
    important thing is that we endorse it
  • 42:58 - 43:08
    really, so we put it on the walls. We talk
    about it and we observe the dynamics into
  • 43:08 - 43:17
    the hackerspace. What do people do. How do
    they feel we welcome them. We apply ethics
  • 43:17 - 43:26
    of care that do the things I was talking
    about. We help people, but we do not do
  • 43:26 - 43:31
    things on their behalf. We do not speak
    for the persons, but we are here to
  • 43:31 - 43:35
    support, if they need. That's how it
    works.
  • 43:35 - 43:39
    GdB: So are there many cases, where you
    find, you need to mediate or have you had
  • 43:39 - 43:43
    cases where you've had to exclude people
    based on your code of conduct?
  • 43:43 - 43:48
    Le Reset speaker (right): We haven't
    excluded many people, but we feel totally
  • 43:48 - 43:54
    fine with having to exclude someone, we're
    not afraid of it. But usually we try to
  • 43:54 - 44:01
    talk to the person before we have to get
    them out and remind them of the code of
  • 44:01 - 44:09
    conduct. Our code of conduct is something
    that we have to apply, but it's also full
  • 44:09 - 44:14
    of keywords and so the idea is that every
    time we're saying that organizing a
  • 44:14 - 44:18
    workshop or doing your conference we talk
    about it and we tell people to read it
  • 44:18 - 44:23
    before they come. So that they also can
    google the words that they don't know, so
  • 44:23 - 44:28
    that they come into hackerspace and they
    know what it means to actually respect
  • 44:28 - 44:35
    somebodies pronouns or things like this.
    GdB: So. How would you all balance sort of
  • 44:35 - 44:41
    the mission of what your space is about to
    do and what your communities are there to
  • 44:41 - 44:46
    do in terms of creating safe space for the
    people that you have as part of your
  • 44:46 - 44:53
    community and educating the rest of the
    world.
  • 44:53 - 45:04
    Hong Phuc Dang: I can say something. So
    code of conduct is a good way to ensure
  • 45:04 - 45:10
    that safe space for people. And in terms
    of inclusiveness, so there, so I think
  • 45:10 - 45:14
    that in order to solve this problems at
    first, is a good way that we bring people
  • 45:14 - 45:20
    together who can talk about the challenges
    and incidents; that they had in the past
  • 45:20 - 45:25
    so that the people in the audience also
    aware that they might not intentionally
  • 45:25 - 45:30
    raise this question. But now people aware
    of what could be offense do to another
  • 45:30 - 45:33
    members. But I think one of the bigger
    challenge is that the people in the
  • 45:33 - 45:40
    community sometimes people are not aware
    of the level the difference of background
  • 45:40 - 45:45
    of different people in the community. For
    instance, I want to give one example. So,
  • 45:45 - 45:51
    when you visit one of the hackersspace in
    Singapore. Normally when you come in even
  • 45:51 - 45:56
    though this is your first time entered a
    hackerspace, nobody would come and talk to
  • 45:56 - 46:00
    you, try to introduce to you to the space,
    what other equipment is, because they
  • 46:00 - 46:03
    assumed that you already have the
    knowledge. If you enter this, there's got
  • 46:03 - 46:09
    to be good you know everything. And
    sometime I found a little bit intimidated
  • 46:09 - 46:14
    that I did not understand some joke that
    make by my male colleagues, because they
  • 46:14 - 46:19
    have different kind of knowledge coming
    from the west from Europe or America. So
  • 46:19 - 46:23
    it's very important that we are aware that
    people coming from different backgrounds.
  • 46:23 - 46:26
    So something that you think that is so
    obvious to you that might not be obvious
  • 46:26 - 46:32
    to people. And it might raise some kind of
    conflict and misunderstanding. Something
  • 46:32 - 46:37
    if we are all aware, that piece of
    knowledge we have might not be relevant to
  • 46:37 - 46:45
    another person and always be aware and be
    more flexible, then that could be less
  • 46:45 - 46:51
    complex in the community in my opinion.
    GdB: So again like I said
  • 46:51 - 46:56
    (applause)
    GdB: you're free to applaud.
  • 46:56 - 47:04
    GdB: How do you try to balance that?
    Le Reset speaker (right): We welcome
  • 47:04 - 47:08
    everybody that comes into this space.
    We're here every Sunday, so we usually
  • 47:08 - 47:13
    know who has come before and who hasn't.
    And every time we see a new person there
  • 47:13 - 47:17
    is always someone who comes and explain
    the code of conduct, but also like: what
  • 47:17 - 47:23
    is this space, where you can find the
    stickers, where is the workshop. So we
  • 47:23 - 47:27
    explain everything.
    GdB: I think that sounds really nice. I
  • 47:27 - 47:31
    think from what you've explained there's a
    lot of magic in that very personal
  • 47:31 - 47:37
    approach. You know, it's not that you're
    like take them into your space when they
  • 47:37 - 47:41
    come in, but it's like this taking care of
    each other and looking out for one
  • 47:41 - 47:45
    another, which should be part of
    respectful human conduct. No matter what
  • 47:45 - 47:52
    kind of human you are. Right. Maybe one
    last topic on the panel before we open up
  • 47:52 - 47:56
    a little bit or maybe wanted to. I thought
    it was really interesting to read on one
  • 47:56 - 48:03
    of the little things on your slide. I
    really like the one that said, I was writing
  • 48:03 - 48:08
    too fast now I can't read my own writing:
    "It is just privileged people's choice."?
  • 48:08 - 48:19
    So in my experience very often we create
    spaces like yours or like community, or
  • 48:19 - 48:24
    creating the mind of creating. Bringing in
    new people and giving people, who maybe
  • 48:24 - 48:31
    haven't had sort of their typical tech
    career, a chance to explore and see that
  • 48:31 - 48:35
    they can be the creators of technology
    themselves. But we end up also creating
  • 48:35 - 48:40
    kind of bubbles and usually attracting
    people with a certain background, usually
  • 48:40 - 48:46
    creating spaces with people. We live in
    Europe, we're like, you know, middle class
  • 48:46 - 48:51
    white communities. And that's also,
    perhaps, not the level of playing fields,
  • 48:51 - 48:55
    when it comes to creating inclusive
    technology. Is that something that you
  • 48:55 - 48:59
    address in your spaces? I'm not looking at
    you specifically because it's a little bit
  • 48:59 - 49:04
    of a different intercultural setting that
    you have with FOSS Asia. But how does
  • 49:04 - 49:08
    that come into play, when we talk about
    diversity in your experiences?
  • 49:08 - 49:15
    Le Reset speaker (left): Actually we are
    located in a queer bar. So the people that
  • 49:15 - 49:24
    are used to come to this bar to party and
    date - they also come on Sundays, so we
  • 49:24 - 49:31
    have people that would never enter a
    hacker space, you know, in other times. So we
  • 49:31 - 49:43
    have, actually, met many women, many trans
    people and queer people. One time we had
  • 49:43 - 49:48
    this girl, who never touched a computer.
    We have people who have never played video
  • 49:48 - 49:55
    games and so on. So we have really diverse
    public.
  • 49:55 - 49:58
    GdB: I think that's also interesting as
    that was mentioned before the setting of
  • 49:58 - 50:01
    where your space actually is, which is a
    really important fact of how to make
  • 50:01 - 50:07
    spaces accessible to different communities
    as well. How's that for the space that you
  • 50:07 - 50:10
    have out there?
    Em: So this is such a tricky question and
  • 50:10 - 50:14
    particularly with the volunteer one
    spaces. You have a limited amount of time
  • 50:14 - 50:20
    and energy and do you spend that on
    educating people, or do you spend it on
  • 50:20 - 50:26
    engaging with people, who can use your
    resources. And I lean towards the
  • 50:26 - 50:32
    engagement. I feel that it's important to
    kind of get people in and to share what we
  • 50:32 - 50:37
    already have with other groups. There are
    resources out there, where people can
  • 50:37 - 50:41
    educate themselves - like people in
    technology communities, like very
  • 50:41 - 50:45
    intelligent people, like they are more
    than capable of kind of finding other
  • 50:45 - 50:53
    resources and educating themselves. And if
    the group has the capacity, for example,
  • 50:53 - 50:59
    to run workshops around specific issues,
    around consents, around kind of
  • 50:59 - 51:03
    introductions to feminism and other topics
    - then that's great. And that can be a
  • 51:03 - 51:09
    great way of educating our own community
    and also taking those ideas into the
  • 51:09 - 51:16
    outside community. But I think if it
    was... if time was limited then I would
  • 51:16 - 51:21
    definitely want to dedicate more to
    engagement rather than educating people
  • 51:21 - 51:26
    who are capable of educating themselves.
    Le Reset speaker (right): About that
  • 51:26 - 51:30
    education. Our hackerspace has been
    invited to give feminism 101 talks
  • 51:30 - 51:37
    like a lot. And so we answered yes to
    those invitation and then we did not do
  • 51:37 - 51:41
    feminism 101, because we believe
    that there has been enough talks about
  • 51:41 - 51:45
    feminism 101 already and there is
    plenty of things available on the
  • 51:45 - 51:54
    Internet. So we make usually talks about
    ethics of care or cyber feminism. And
  • 51:54 - 52:00
    every time we go somewhere we have a wiki
    page about it with all the links about
  • 52:00 - 52:08
    four lines definition on Wikipedia or 40
    pages PDF that you can download, or
  • 52:08 - 52:12
    podcasts, so all the feminism 101
    and all the education has already been
  • 52:12 - 52:17
    done. So we are making sure that it's
    accessible and then we are moving on,
  • 52:17 - 52:22
    because as you said we don't have this
    energy to do again and again what other
  • 52:22 - 52:32
    have done before us.
    applause
  • 52:32 - 52:36
    Lena: I think you've mentioned it already.
    And I think you're also working
  • 52:36 - 52:41
    voluntarily or a lot of volunteers come
    and so, do they have the time and energy?
  • 52:41 - 52:47
    As for me it's also sometimes... I'm just
    not in the mood to explain everything
  • 52:47 - 52:53
    again, like the really 101 stuff.
    But other times, when I feel like someone
  • 52:53 - 52:58
    is really curious and really wants to
    learn something, and is respectful, and is
  • 52:58 - 53:06
    not trying to provoke a discussion just to
    have a discussion - because then, yeah, I
  • 53:06 - 53:10
    don't know... With some persons I feel
    like: okay, for him it might be a fun
  • 53:10 - 53:14
    discussion just to, I don't know, just to
    test the borders and see how far you can
  • 53:14 - 53:19
    go. But for me it's like: okay I'm talking
    if I have the right to be here as a woman
  • 53:19 - 53:23
    and I don't always feel like I want to
    discuss that.
  • 53:23 - 53:29
    GdB: Your patience level is going down as
    well. Hong Phuc, how is it for you, how do
  • 53:29 - 53:34
    you try to engage people in open source
    communities that perhaps wouldn't normally
  • 53:34 - 53:42
    walk into a hackerspace? Or don't yet know
    about the work that you do.
  • 53:42 - 53:54
    Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So I found FOSS
    Asia. And then for me it was quite lucky,
  • 53:54 - 53:59
    because the founder of the organization is
    a female. So it also help make other
  • 53:59 - 54:04
    people feel more comfortable to engage
    with the open source community. But I
  • 54:04 - 54:14
    think as Em and Lena also said that the
    number of women, who work in the tech
  • 54:14 - 54:23
    community, is very small. And I think it's
    important to understand that when you talk
  • 54:23 - 54:27
    about technology - it's not only about
    coding, because there are so many
  • 54:27 - 54:33
    different responsibilities and a
    possibility that you could engage the
  • 54:33 - 54:39
    woman or other community members in the
    community. So it's important to have the
  • 54:39 - 54:44
    guide lines to help people, a lot of good
    documentation. To show people that by
  • 54:44 - 54:50
    joining the community the first step you
    did not have to fix a bug or write a line of
  • 54:50 - 54:53
    code in order to join the community. You
    can do a translation, you can do design,
  • 54:53 - 54:59
    localization - many things that any single
    one of us can be involved in, can
  • 54:59 - 55:06
    contribute as our space. So I think that
    is one step to lower the barriers to enter
  • 55:06 - 55:09
    the community.
    GdB:Thank you.
  • 55:09 - 55:16
    applause
    GdB: I'd like to start opening up the
  • 55:16 - 55:21
    questions and comments. We have I think
    two microphones here in the center of the
  • 55:21 - 55:30
    room and... you're first.
    Mic: Hello. First of all thank you girls
  • 55:30 - 55:34
    very much for this session. I kind of
    relate to that, we're so to say from the
  • 55:34 - 55:43
    same club. I came from Estonia and there
    I'm the organizer of the conference women
  • 55:43 - 55:51
    in cybersecurity and also head of Google
    women tech makers in Estonia. And I can
  • 55:51 - 55:56
    rely to a lot of things, which you have
    mentioned. But what I am really interested
  • 55:56 - 56:03
    because you're from different countries
    is... Ms Dong has answered this question
  • 56:03 - 56:09
    partially, but I'm interested in other
    answers. How do you actually attract more
  • 56:09 - 56:14
    women into IT? Not from the marketing
    perspective, but from the perspective for
  • 56:14 - 56:22
    your mission of your hacker space or your
    community. And how do you make those
  • 56:22 - 56:27
    people stay and come to the events or, if
    not come to the events, how do you make
  • 56:27 - 56:33
    them thinking of that and continue
    studying? Yeah. And the success story that
  • 56:33 - 56:38
    is something what we all would be really
    interested in hearing. Because, for
  • 56:38 - 56:43
    example, from Ms. Dong's story we can see
    the open source projects I guess still a
  • 56:43 - 56:48
    lot of girls might have been involved
    there; and the hotel and other projects.
  • 56:48 - 56:52
    But what about the Europe? Tell us, that's
    very curious. Thank you.
  • 56:52 - 56:57
    GdB: Thank you very much. So we collect a
    couple and then go around or how would you
  • 56:57 - 57:02
    like to do it?
    Mic: I can remind the questions if needed.
  • 57:02 - 57:08
    How do you attract, how do you keep people
    and how do you... the success stories.
  • 57:08 - 57:13
    GdB: Thank you. So let's do that. Do you
    have your community, is it very
  • 57:13 - 57:17
    fluctuating? Or do you have a kind of
    stable group of people? Do you ever have a
  • 57:17 - 57:20
    problem of connecting them back to your
    space?
  • 57:20 - 57:27
    Mic: Just before we start from the answer
    for ladies - there is something else I
  • 57:27 - 57:29
    wanted to mention. I also come not from
    a....
  • 57:29 - 57:33
    GdB: There is a long queue behind you, and
    we've already collected a couple of
  • 57:33 - 57:34
    questions, so maybe just one more
    sentence.
  • 57:34 - 57:38
    Mic: Of course. Yeah. Thank you... No,
    then go ahead for the answer.
  • 57:38 - 57:44
    GdB: Okay. Thank you. How long time is
    your community, how much does it
  • 57:44 - 57:47
    fluctuate, how do you sort of keep people?
    Le Reset speaker (right): We have people
  • 57:47 - 57:53
    that come like every Sunday and we have
    people, who come just for one workshop,
  • 57:53 - 57:58
    because they've been interested in that
    topic. What we do to attract people is
  • 57:58 - 58:04
    that every Sunday we have a workshop, at
    least one workshops, so people are usually
  • 58:04 - 58:09
    interested in the topic or just interested
    in meeting new people. But they always
  • 58:09 - 58:14
    know that they won't just stand there and
    have nobody to talk to. There is a
  • 58:14 - 58:20
    workshop, like they have a purpose for
    being here. And because the topics are
  • 58:20 - 58:26
    always oriented towards women and queer we
    don't have any issue attracting women and
  • 58:26 - 58:31
    queers in the hackerspace. We've never had
    a majority of straight men in the
  • 58:31 - 58:37
    hackerspace that has never happened.
    GdB: Thank you. So Em, and your
  • 58:37 - 58:40
    experience?
    Em: Well, I mean it's a huge question how
  • 58:40 - 58:47
    do you attract women into IT and retain
    shortthem. Just to keep my answer fairly sure:
  • 58:47 - 58:53
    one particular tip I have is to get a bit
    academic for a second, kind of focus on
  • 58:53 - 58:57
    developing like the social bonds within
    your community rather than necessarily the
  • 58:57 - 59:03
    tech aspects. Like when people have
    friends and people they care about in this
  • 59:03 - 59:08
    community - they're much more likely to
    join it and want to stay there and to get
  • 59:08 - 59:15
    more out of it. So sometimes focusing on
    things that seem quite tangential like
  • 59:15 - 59:19
    socializing and people spending time
    together, like outside of the physical
  • 59:19 - 59:24
    space and kind of doing like fun non tech
    things together, like can actually do that
  • 59:24 - 59:27
    job of bringing more women than and femme
    people in and helping them to feel
  • 59:27 - 59:32
    comfortable and welcome there.
    GdB: I think there's a challenge maybe the
  • 59:32 - 59:38
    other way around too. In my experience
    it's for many people spaces, like the ones
  • 59:38 - 59:43
    that you create, become a home and so sort
    of keeping people, having people want to
  • 59:43 - 59:49
    be part of that home is not so hard. But
    making sure that you remain open for new
  • 59:49 - 59:53
    people to sort of join that family and
    feel as equally welcome can sometimes be
  • 59:53 - 60:00
    an even bigger challenge than attracting
    people and keeping them in the beginning.
  • 60:00 - 60:05
    Next question.
    Mic: So my question will mostly be related
  • 60:05 - 60:11
    to this mergery of the feminist hacker
    spaces and the male hacker spaces. So I
  • 60:11 - 60:18
    see that you are making spaces for women
    and for a queer to get creative, but
  • 60:18 - 60:22
    making these separate from other hacker
    spaces in a bit of an isolation and I
  • 60:22 - 60:29
    guess this would be a next step to merge
    these kind of societies. So from a male
  • 60:29 - 60:34
    perspective it's sometimes hard to
    understand what female don't find
  • 60:34 - 60:41
    attractive or find distracting about
    joining male societies, because feminist
  • 60:41 - 60:48
    activism usually do not target male to
    express what the problem is. So what do
  • 60:48 - 60:55
    you think that could be done towards this
    mergery? So to make women try to get
  • 60:55 - 61:04
    involved in male hacker spaces and to make
    men more acceptive to female. So this
  • 61:04 - 61:12
    mergery to get involved together. I hope
    my question was on this...
  • 61:12 - 61:18
    laughing
    GdB: You can all feel free
  • 61:18 - 61:27
    Le Reset speaker (right): I don't think
    our goal is to merge our hacker spaces. We
  • 61:27 - 61:30
    are creating hacker spaces around our
    issues, if you want to come you're
  • 61:30 - 61:36
    welcome. But what you will find here is
    things that concerns us. But of course
  • 61:36 - 61:44
    you're welcome. And...
    applause
  • 61:44 - 61:46
    Le Reset speaker (right): We don't have
    any interest in your issues so we're not
  • 61:46 - 61:50
    coming to your hacker spaces. But...
    applause
  • 61:50 - 61:57
    Mic: Yeah. I understand this. And I don't
    think that what you do is wrong. I just
  • 61:57 - 62:01
    think that this is a sort of isolation
    between two different kinds of creative
  • 62:01 - 62:03
    energy.
    GdB: Let's...
  • 62:03 - 62:07
    Le Reset speaker (right): I think you've
    been in isolation much more longer than
  • 62:07 - 62:09
    us.
    applause
  • 62:09 - 62:11
    Mic: I mean probably separation, not
    isolation.
  • 62:11 - 62:18
    GdB: Let's.. Again I'm gonna say, there
    are many people queuing behind you, so we
  • 62:18 - 62:20
    do want to get in a conversation with
    everyone, but we want to give everybody
  • 62:20 - 62:26
    the chance to speak as well. I think I'm
    gonna rephrase your question if I may,
  • 62:26 - 62:32
    when it comes to the actual creation of
    technology. Because I think that... let's
  • 62:32 - 62:34
    see if there are two separate things or
    not: the one thing is that you have a
  • 62:34 - 62:38
    community and you have a space for that
    community, and you want to prioritize the
  • 62:38 - 62:42
    issues of your community. The other
    question is when we create technology and
  • 62:42 - 62:46
    we create technology for the general
    public. How do we ensure that that
  • 62:46 - 62:52
    technology is created by the public as in
    all members of that public and then
  • 62:52 - 62:56
    reflects all of our values equally.
    Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe
  • 62:56 - 62:58
    in the general public.
    GdB: Sorry?
  • 62:58 - 63:01
    Le Reset speaker (right): I don't believe
    in the general public.
  • 63:01 - 63:09
    applause
    Hong Phuc Dang: So I could answer your
  • 63:09 - 63:14
    question. I also don't want to give
    comment about if we merging the two
  • 63:14 - 63:19
    groups. But if you want to make your
    space, any hacker space, more welcome to
  • 63:19 - 63:24
    woman or any member, the first thing: just
    like in a normal context - if you have a
  • 63:24 - 63:28
    new guest coming to your home, the first
    thing is that to show the guest around.
  • 63:28 - 63:35
    Like to interact with a person and to be
    patient, and show them what they can do.
  • 63:35 - 63:39
    And also one thing that I mentioned
    earlier: because people have different
  • 63:39 - 63:42
    background knowledge so it's more
    important that you find out what is their
  • 63:42 - 63:48
    motivation, to get to know the people
    better. So make this more like the women
  • 63:48 - 63:53
    feel more comfortable to come you to your
    space instead of asking them to merge
  • 63:53 - 63:56
    together with another space. Just create a
    more friendly environment in your space.
  • 63:56 - 64:00
    By just approaching the people, the
    newcomers and welcome them.
  • 64:00 - 64:07
    applause
    GdB: Next person please.
  • 64:07 - 64:16
    Mic: So I have some more of experience to
    share than the question. I organize events
  • 64:16 - 64:25
    for geeks and they are very male heavy,
    let's say. And what I found is when it
  • 64:25 - 64:32
    comes to disabled people and that the
    community is more likely to actually
  • 64:32 - 64:37
    change is because then they change
    environment and they don't have to change
  • 64:37 - 64:39
    themselves.
    applause
  • 64:39 - 64:45
    Mic: The huge problem usually is that the
    male populated hacker space are generally
  • 64:45 - 64:54
    community in general, feel that when they
    have to open to female presence or a gay
  • 64:54 - 65:00
    presence, etc. they have to change their
    own behavior. And that it's not something
  • 65:00 - 65:05
    they are willing to do. Sadly enough.
    Thanks.
  • 65:05 - 65:10
    GdB: Thank you. Was that question in there
    you just wanted to share. Okay good. Thank
  • 65:10 - 65:13
    you. There's an online question we'd like
    to take next please.
  • 65:13 - 65:17
    Signal Angel: The question was answered.
    GdB: Oh...
  • 65:17 - 65:21
    laughing
    GdB: Okay then. In that case.
  • 65:21 - 65:26
    Mic: Hello. Thank you. First of all thank
    you for all of your great work. I just
  • 65:26 - 65:30
    want to have a question about something
    that maybe a little bit missed in this
  • 65:30 - 65:34
    conversation. And so we talked about all
    of the communities and the hacker spaces
  • 65:34 - 65:41
    that focused on a woman and non binaries.
    But imagine a scenario that there is a
  • 65:41 - 65:47
    company or there's like a startup and
    there is not much diversity and we want to
  • 65:47 - 65:55
    improve like representation of people of
    marginalized group or anyway. How
  • 65:55 - 66:01
    we can achieve that? There are lots of
    suggestions like hire people who are like
  • 66:01 - 66:08
    visible to others, to be very open about
    this and try to attract more people. But
  • 66:08 - 66:13
    is there any sort of way to talk to get
    these successful stories about to improve
  • 66:13 - 66:20
    the diversity of companies and startups
    and other types of communities?
  • 66:20 - 66:28
    GdB: Thank you.
    Lena: I think it's often you have biases
  • 66:28 - 66:34
    sometimes in the hiring process, so maybe
    you go through different CVs of different
  • 66:34 - 66:40
    persons and then you... I only know
    examples from Germany, but I guess it's
  • 66:40 - 66:46
    the same everywhere. If you read a CV with
    a name that sounds foreign to you, you
  • 66:46 - 66:50
    might put it to the side or might
    automatically think: okay maybe this
  • 66:50 - 66:59
    person is not equally capable. Even if the
    skills are the same. And also in your job
  • 66:59 - 67:04
    descriptions you can make sure that it's
    more inclusive so you don't say like: okay
  • 67:04 - 67:13
    the perfect person "he" should have this
    and that's, put "he and she". And I think
  • 67:13 - 67:19
    a lot of times it's about really really
    subtle changes and small things. And like
  • 67:19 - 67:21
    you said it's a change of the mindset. So
    it's...
  • 67:21 - 67:25
    GdB: Yeah, please.
    Le Reset speaker (left): Actually, you
  • 67:25 - 67:30
    know, in Le Reset we do not value success
    stories at all. We don't care. We value
  • 67:30 - 67:36
    partnership. Partnership and being well
    together, and that's what works actually.
  • 67:36 - 67:42
    We do many things, but not by pushing
    things. To be a woman or queer, or
  • 67:42 - 67:48
    whatever... we do what we want to do, what
    we like and that works. That's just that.
  • 67:48 - 67:50
    Mic: Thank you.
    GdB: Thank you.
  • 67:50 - 67:56
    applause
    GdB: Maybe we can exchange after this. Oh
  • 67:56 - 68:00
    there's a lot of great written walks
    already out there that give advice to
  • 68:00 - 68:04
    companies and startups that want be more
    inclusive. But like the the simplest thing
  • 68:04 - 68:09
    if, like you said it yourself, if you want
    to be inclusive - have an inclusive team.
  • 68:09 - 68:14
    You cannot have an inclusive or diverse
    startup if your team are all men and the
  • 68:14 - 68:19
    excuse that you didn't find the right
    people out there doesn't really go. Either
  • 68:19 - 68:23
    because, like you said, then maybe you're
    looking the wrong way. And if you
  • 68:23 - 68:26
    seriously can't find anybody with a
    skillset you're looking for - then help
  • 68:26 - 68:32
    people build that skillset. So there are
    always ways to actually do that in your
  • 68:32 - 68:40
    team. Please.
    Mic: Hi. Six of you proposed talks. We got
  • 68:40 - 68:46
    one talk. Yes you are six awesome women.
    It's an awesome topic. We've got an
  • 68:46 - 68:51
    audience of roughly 50/50. It's one of the
    most balanced audiences I've seen that
  • 68:51 - 68:56
    this entire event, but I'm pretty certain
    that the men in here are majority male
  • 68:56 - 69:01
    allies. The women you're preaching to the
    perverted here, why is it that we have
  • 69:01 - 69:08
    allowed ourselves to be gerrymandered in
    this way. Why do we have only one session.
  • 69:08 - 69:23
    Why do we not have six sessions.
    applause
  • 69:23 - 69:32
    Mic: Adams, Borg, Clark, Dijkstra. The
    meeting rooms are named after men! Women
  • 69:32 - 69:37
    are 50/50 of the population. Why are we
    allowing this to happen. I appreciate. I'm
  • 69:37 - 69:40
    looking you in the eye and I'm guilty
    here of preaching to perverted too. But
  • 69:40 - 69:45
    why are we allowing it. Why is it
    happening. It's 2018. It's soon to be
  • 69:45 - 69:58
    2019. We deserve better.
    applause
  • 69:58 - 70:03
    Hong Phuc Dang: Thank you. Thank you very
    much for your concern. But I think that...
  • 70:03 - 70:07
    don't you think that is good to bring
    people together because, of course like we
  • 70:07 - 70:12
    can have separate section, but it also
    very good to have everyone come together
  • 70:12 - 70:15
    and share their opinions so we can have a
    conversation, in which we can learn for
  • 70:15 - 70:19
    each other. So again that the congress is
    very busy. Not everyone can come to every
  • 70:19 - 70:24
    single talk. Maybe we'll not be able to
    attend always our friends who are the
  • 70:24 - 70:28
    panelists here. But it's good that we can
    come all together. So are always pro and
  • 70:28 - 70:32
    con. But thank you very much for your
    concern.
  • 70:32 - 70:34
    applause
    GdB: We have exactly time for one last
  • 70:34 - 70:37
    question/intervention and that shall be
    you.
  • 70:37 - 70:43
    Mic: Thank you. Thank you for the talk and
    thank you for this opportunity. I'm
  • 70:43 - 70:49
    probably in the category of a straight
    male engineer. But I also more or less...
  • 70:49 - 70:55
    but I also have, I'm running a coworking
    space in Copenhagen and I'm specifically
  • 70:55 - 71:01
    focusing on making it inclusive. So I'll
    be trying to find an information and tips
  • 71:01 - 71:09
    on how to do that. But I have two other
    questions then. What would be your top
  • 71:09 - 71:17
    three action points on ending the digital
    gender divide? It's a big topic, I know.
  • 71:17 - 71:21
    laughing
    GdB: There's a small question for the end
  • 71:21 - 71:23
    of session.
    Mic: Yeah.
  • 71:23 - 71:26
    GdB: And you had a second one even.
    Mic: Yeah. The second one was...
  • 71:26 - 71:30
    laughing
    Mic: I guess that's, I mean, I really see
  • 71:30 - 71:36
    the points being raised about designing. I
    mean just down to the level of design:
  • 71:36 - 71:41
    designing a website targeted to a male
    audience versus targeted to a female
  • 71:41 - 72:02
    audience. And the second question was...
    What was that... The FOSS Asia. In Asia I
  • 72:02 - 72:08
    read an article lately from after access
    magazine about Internet usage throughout
  • 72:08 - 72:15
    the global south. And it's thus in Asia
    you have like 20 percent of the population
  • 72:15 - 72:21
    on the Internet. Do you see that as a
    problem? And what do you think could be
  • 72:21 - 72:24
    done about it?
    GdB: Okay so how do we close the digital
  • 72:24 - 72:30
    divide as such and how to close the gender
    divide. Specifically. Okay. Thank you.
  • 72:30 - 72:36
    Hong Phuc Dang: And I don't want to
    announce that I am suggested we have a
  • 72:36 - 72:42
    after panel discussion, so we hosted a
    follow up discussion at the FOSS Asia
  • 72:42 - 72:46
    assembly after this. If you have more
    questions and you want to continue the
  • 72:46 - 72:53
    conversation we can meet there at 8:15?
    GdB: 8:15 to 9:15. We're not dodging your
  • 72:53 - 73:00
    question or we're just going to move it to
    that meetup. I hope that's okay. As we
  • 73:00 - 73:03
    have run over time. But I would like to end
    maybe with a little bit of a closing
  • 73:03 - 73:09
    round, because I think this came out of a
    number of statements that you made, on
  • 73:09 - 73:15
    your specific and of course work as a
    leader of the open source community, which
  • 73:15 - 73:19
    is on shared resources. So you mentioned
    that a lot of times you're putting your
  • 73:19 - 73:24
    resources out there and they're out there
    for other people to share and learn from.
  • 73:24 - 73:28
    I'd be interested and a little bit of
    closing round of either recommendations,
  • 73:28 - 73:33
    reading recommendations, places to go look
    for further information, maybe places
  • 73:33 - 73:36
    where you can be publishing your research.
    But although the question of connecting
  • 73:36 - 73:40
    like how do we strengthen each other's
    work. Not just by coming together at
  • 73:40 - 73:45
    conferences like this but by making our
    knowledge open and sharing it and perhaps
  • 73:45 - 73:49
    also exchanging experiences with one
    another. So if maybe you want to leave
  • 73:49 - 73:54
    with an idea or a recommendation, or a
    point of inspiration, or question on that
  • 73:54 - 73:57
    issue. Let's do a quick round. You want to
    start?
  • 73:57 - 74:02
    Em: So we're quite lucky in the UK that we
    have the UK Hackspace Foundation which is
  • 74:02 - 74:07
    a kind of Umbrella group for the [not
    understandable] hackerspaces in the UK and
  • 74:07 - 74:12
    these kind of organisations can be great
    for raising discussions about these
  • 74:12 - 74:18
    topics. I'm really pushing to have more of
    focus on inclusivity and diversity in the
  • 74:18 - 74:21
    UK Hackspace Foundation at the moment and
    that can be a way of kind of funnelling
  • 74:21 - 74:25
    best practices out through all of the
    member organizations.
  • 74:25 - 74:30
    GdB: Thank you.
    Lena: I think for us it's we really focus
  • 74:30 - 74:35
    on, like you mentioned as well, the
    personal connection. So yeah we would of
  • 74:35 - 74:38
    course prefer that you visit us for
    coctails and code, and I think there are a
  • 74:38 - 74:46
    lot of almost.. I think in the bigger
    cities you will find of feminist or women
  • 74:46 - 74:51
    only or women and non binary people only
    spaces. And if there is none, maybe then
  • 74:51 - 74:55
    you should found one. Because I think it's
    really important and I think it happens a
  • 74:55 - 74:59
    lot through personal connections.
    GdB: Thank you, Lena.
  • 74:59 - 75:03
    Hong Phuc Dang: Yeah. So it is something
    you all are welcome at our open source
  • 75:03 - 75:09
    hotel in Vietnam now if you ever want to
    visit and welcome at any FOSS Asia events.
  • 75:09 - 75:16
    At the same time I think that we could
    share our best practices and the
  • 75:16 - 75:20
    successful story on our website. So
    whatever the FOSS Asia developed and what
  • 75:20 - 75:24
    we do we publish everything. I think that
    is a good way to share resources with
  • 75:24 - 75:29
    other communities. And a panel discussion
    is always good to learn and to continue
  • 75:29 - 75:32
    the conversation.
    GdB: It's definitely good moment with you
  • 75:32 - 75:35
    guys. Sarah.
    Le Reset speaker (right): There is only
  • 75:35 - 75:39
    one thing to do is to go to our Wiki. We
    have all the resources that you need, in
  • 75:39 - 75:41
    French.
    laughing
  • 75:41 - 75:50
    Hong Phug Dang: Our website is in English
    laughingapplause
  • 75:50 - 75:56
    Le Reset speaker (right): So yeah, we will
    try. As after this conference and this as
  • 75:56 - 76:00
    I say we will try to put the video on our
    Wiki with a page with all the references
  • 76:00 - 76:04
    as we do usually in French and so we will
    do it in English this time. So you should
  • 76:04 - 76:11
    find it in a few days on our Wiki which is
    Wiki.LeReset.org.
  • 76:11 - 76:16
    GdB: Excellent.
    applause
  • 76:16 - 76:20
    GdB: I would like to thank you all for
    hanging in such great ideas for this event
  • 76:20 - 76:25
    for sitting on this panel and sharing your
    thoughts and experiences. Thank you Azam.
  • 76:25 - 76:29
    Thank you Sarah. Thank you Hong. Thank you
    Lena. Thank you Em. For being part of the
  • 76:29 - 76:33
    session. Thank you all for attending and
    your inputs and ideas as well. And let's
  • 76:33 - 76:36
    say a big thank you to the stage host and
    the translators for doing a wonderful job
  • 76:36 - 76:38
    as well.
  • 76:38 - 76:41
    applause
  • 76:41 - 76:43
    35c3 postroll music
  • 76:43 - 77:05
    Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de
    in the year 2020. Join, and help us!
Title:
35C3 - Feminist Perspectives
Description:

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Video Language:
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Duration:
01:17:05

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