Michael Eric Dyson on the Black Presidency

(applause)

(Laura Washington): Good evening and

welcome everyone, I'm really honored

to have the pleasure of sharing some

conversation up here. Welcome, Michael!

(Michael Eric Dyson): Thank you,

it's great to be here.

>> I know you come through Chicago every

now and then, but >> Mm-hm.
>> this is

your old home, stomping grounds
>> Yeah.

>> from time to time when you were

teaching at DePaul >> Yes, yes.
>> and

writing. We shared a spot on the Sun Times

editorial page >> Mm-hm.
>> when you were

writing that great column and we miss you

here!
>> Well, I miss being here, and your

crisp writing is ever as lively, and

you know, I miss being here in the Chi.

>> Well you're here tonight
>> Mm-hm.

>> to talk about the black Presidency.

>> Mm-hm.
>> And just wanted to open by

asking you, what are you trying to

accomplish with this book?
>> Well, I

wanted to, and I want to take measure of

the use of race in the Obama Presidency,

to talk about how race was used to frame

the President before he got into office,

to talk about how race has framed our

perceptions of who he is as a human being,

what his political and even personal

desires are, and how his personal identity

interacts with his political one, and then

I wanted to also understand the degree to

which race has been deployed against him

since he's been in office. How has it been

a barrier, how has it motivated people to

obstruct what he has attempted to achieve,

how has it facilitated some of those

achievements, and how has it been used to

deflect certain political issues, and how

has President Obama himself been a racial

procrastinator, and become racially

hesitant, when it comes especially to the

interests, politically and communally, of

African-American people.
>> Now, that's a

very nuanced, balanced summary, but this

book is tough on the President. Really

tough. I mean, you had some praise for

him, but there was a lot of tough love

there. And I know you talk in the book

about getting, wrangling an interview with

The White House, >> Mm-hm.
>> an interview

with the President, that took some doing,

and it wasn't as long as you would have

liked, but I suspect that if you tried to

get that interview now you wouldn't even

get past the front door.
>> Mm.

(audience laughter)

>> Would you agree?
>> Well yeah, but it

wasn't person--you know, the reason The

White House didn't talk to me wasn't

because--I don't think--they didn't like

me, they didn't want to talk about race.

>> Mm-hm.
>> You know, I've noticed a

couple of reviewers, they didn't want to

speak about race, they didn't have

anything against me, I was a surrogate for

the President twice.
>> And when you say

they don't want to talk about race,

you're talking about
>> The White House.

The Obama--
>> Are you talking about--

>> Administration.
>> The President. Are

you talking about the President?
>> Well,

they represent him, he hired them.
>> But,

yeah...
>>So, the people around him. I

didn't have his number, so I couldn't call

him directly. >> (laughter)
>> Well let me

stop lying. I had his number before he

became President.
>> Yeah. (audience laughter)

That one doesn't work anymore.
>> He used

to call me on his cell phone.
>>(laughter)

>> So, (laughs) >> So you're--
>> So he's

Drake-ing me. No, so the President didn't

want to talk about race, the

Administration didn't want to talk about

race, that is not a subject they wanted to

engage. But most of my book, you know,

it's eight chapters. Only two are taking

the President under a rigorous scrutiny in

regard to him A) scolding black America,

and B) dealing with the police crisis in

this nation. I open the book speaking

about his extraordinary speech in Selma,

I talk about some of the principle

critique that has been put forth, I talk

about his role as the American President

and the black face of an American empire,

I talk about his genius as a rhetorical

figure within our community, I talk about

his relationship to Jeremiah Wright and

I try to balance both speaking about

Reverend Wright in the historic legacy of

the prophetic wing of the church, as well

as Obama's kind of political obligations.

So I think there's a lot of, tremendous

recognition for the positive contribution

he's made, but whenever you criticize also

it seems to be out of kilter when most of

the book is not that.
>> Sure, sure that's

understandable. And the juiciest stuff

always rises to the surface.
>> No doubt

about it. >> (laughter)
>> You know, let

the beef burn.
>> Let the beef burn. Well,

so-- >> Sorry, Biggie.
>> A big question

that you come back to again and again

>> Mm-hm.
>> is the question of, Barack

Obama and the Presidency and what does

that mean, and you ask the question, is

Barack Obama the first BLACK President, or

is Barack Obama the first black PRESIDENT.

>> Right.
>> And you actually elude that

you believe the President, Barack Obama,

thinks he is the latter, he would prefer

to be seen as the latter.
>> Understandably.

>> The first black PRESIDENT.
>> Right,

right. Understandably, right.
>> Talk a

little bit about that.
>> Well, if you

want your adjective to modify your noun...

Or, you know, this President did not want

to be "blackened" in a negative fashion.

Right? Because his enemies were waiting,

champing at the bit, to demonize him. To

suggest, "Ah-ha! We have found and

discovered that you have paid more

attention to black people than anybody."

Or, "You're trying to hook black people

up." Or, one of the fears, people tend to

forget this, before Obama became President,

"He's going to do to us what we did to

them." Now you can take that however you

want, speaking in more abstract and

general terms. So there was a great fear

among certain subsections of white America

that Obama was going to show the vitriol

and the anger and the rancor that they

thought was coming to them that they

thought black people were harboring in

their hearts against white America.

>> I think that our experience in, you

remember back to the day of Harold

Washington, and I think there was a lot of

that feeling in the community back then.

>> Sure.
>> And that's why whites were so

in fear of that >> Mm-hm.
>> historic

election, and many people might say that

the white-led city council opposition

spent a lot of time pushing back
>> Sure.

>> to prevent that terrible thing from

happening >> Sure.
>> when they were going

to get their comeuppance, and

they wanted to make sure they never got

their comeuppance.
>> The Vrdolyak--

>> The Vrdolyak 29.
>> Yeah, no doubt.

>> And this is the same thing all over

again.
>> Absolutely right, it's a great

parallel. And so, Obama didn't want to be

judged by anything but by what other

Presidents are judged by. Judge me

according to the job I do. Judge me

according not to my personal identity, or

my pigment, or your fetish for the

epidermis, judge me based on the integrity

of my gestures in office and who I am as a

political figure.
>> And what's wrong with

that?
>> Nothing at all.

>>So...you don't have a critique as far

as--you feel that it's fair for him to not

want to be judged as a black man, and

because--
>> Black President. Right.

>> Black President.
>> Well, but here's the thing, if he wants

to be judged like every other President,

every other President has been judged

according to what he did with race. If you

want to be like them, >> Mm-hm.
>> they did it too. And if I recall,

none of them, despite conspiracy theories,

were African American. >> Mm-hm (laughter)
>> You know, some black people

come up to me, "You know there were five

black Presidents." Bro, if nobody knew

they were black, they wasn't black.
>> (laughter)

>> It didn't make a difference, because if

you don't treat them that way, if you

don't know that they are...you know you

can discover late in life, "Oh my God, I

didn't know that I was a Negro." >> Mm.
>> But if you had been treated

like a white person your entire life, then

the difference that makes is minimal.
>> Mm-hm.

>> So, my point is this, that every other

President has been judged according to

what he or...he...has done--
>> (laughter)

>> Maybe soon that will change. What he

has done in regard to the nation, but also

what he has done in regard to the nation

as it results in relationships to African

American, black people, colored, negro,

and the like. They've had to deal with

segregation, they've had to deal with

slavery, they've had to deal with Jim

Crow, they've had to deal with Affirmative

Action, so why is it that the first black

President thinks because of personal

discomfort, or the willingness, or the

desire, excuse me, to distance himself a

bit clinically from the discomfort he may

feel because he doesn't want to be judged

as a "black man" and as a "black
President,"

that creates an entire set of fears that

other Presidents have not had. That

creates another layer of, I think,
problematic

distancing of black people from their

representative government.
>> Ok. Now, you say it has a lot to do

with his personal discomfort, and I know

you've got that phone number, you talk to

him all the time, but some people might

think there's other issues that he's,

you know, he's got this incredibly hostile

opposition in Congress--
>> Sure.

>> In the Republican Party--
>> I talk about that.

>> You talk about the racist response--
>> Yes, yes.

>> He's got a lot on his plate, he is the

leader of the entire world, he's a busy

man, so why is it that--
>> That he ain't got time--

>> that some of those are some of the

reasons that maybe he didn't get as much

done or address race head-on as he should

have? Does it have to do with him

personally, or it has to do with--
>> No--

>> his job?
>> No, well, it has to do--look, we don't

have any comparative analysis here.
>> Mm-hm.

>> He's the only one.
>> That's true.

>> That's what happens when you're Jackie.

Hey, what did all the black--? Oh, there

aren't any. So when you're Jackie

Robinson, Willie Mays hasn't come along

yet. Larry Doby is not in the dugout

waiting to take his swing at bat. So,

you know, Don Newcombe is not yet present.

So, he is Jackie Robinson. And an
extraordinary

figure Obama is, being the first
equanimity,

equipoise, balance, self-deprecation,

humor, I mean, he's from Central Casting,

let's be real.
>> From Central Casting as far as the

first black President--
>> I'm saying--

>> The kind of right person--
>> Right.

>> At the right time.
>> He's pretty good for white people too.

>> Mm-hm.
>> I mean, if he was just a plain old

white guy he'd be extraordinary.
>> Mm-hm.

>> But for a black man, even more so given

what it took for him to get elected. And I

mean from Central Casting, for white

brothers and sisters who have a problem,

I'm saying if you got a problem with

Barack Obama, you in trouble, because

there ain't a black man been made that's

going to be more amenable to the dominant

culture than Barack Obama. Don't get mad,

don't say stuff in anger, don't "Yes we

can," "Yes I can," "Of course we will,"

"We'll try," and even when he gets mad he

signifies. Right? Not the last State of
the Union

but the one before that. When he announced

that, "I have no more races to run--"

you know, very nice, casual, and the

Republicans are trying to get a shot in

across the bow, "Yeah, thank you." And

Obama goes, "That's because I beat you."
>> (laughter)

>> Now, if I can be his anger translator,

I could tell you what he was really saying

in black speech.
>> (laughter)

>> Like, "What you want me to do? I beat

yo [silently mouths expletives]."
>> (laughter)

>> Alright? I mean, so the reality is that

Obama is signifying, radiating--
>> For those--

>> the implicit inferential value of
blackness.

>> For those in the audience who may not

know what you mean by "signifying"?
>> Well, I'm just saying

what "signifying" is is that he is

suggesting something that is beyond what's

on the page. He is engaging in a symbolic

representation of an experience that may

not be literal but communicates something

to people who are on the "inside." When

you signify, you are looking at a

particular experience, and the people who

get it. When Jesus said, "Let those who

have ears, let them hear"? Well, those

who have ears, African American people,

we get what he was saying, we get what he

was suggesting, because of a culture.

I don't mean that we were born with black

interpretation as part of our birth--we

were handed a bottle and a black

interpretation box, that's not what

I'm saying.
>> (laughter)

>> I'm saying because of the cultural

signifiers that Obama was reared with,

in part, you know, there was a
communication,

that's what I mean by signifying. And I

think that--but to get to the point, to

get back to my point, the point is that

the President of the United States of
America,

when I say "personal discomfort," I don't

mean that he didn't face all the stuff you

talked about. But look how insulting that

is, "Hey black people, he's too busy for

the stuff you're doing. He's taking care

of the real business."
>> Mm-hm.

>> Right? Like, the real business--I think

race is pretty real business. And I think

race effects everything, and why do we

know this? Because nothing he said about

anything else may have occasioned the

similar response that he got when he

talked about race. And isn't it
interesting?

You know, when people defend the

President, and rightfully so in some cases

when they say, "Look, the moment he speaks

about race, it's radioactive." Oh yeah,

versus, say, ISIS.
>> (chuckle)

>> Yeah, yeah, they loved him on that. Oh,

they loved him on--they haven't tried to

rescind--
>> Well race is a radioactive topic no

matter who brings it up. Right?
>> But this is my point,

but I'm saying it's not just who brings

it up, it's WHO is speaking about anything.

It's not the topic of race, this is what

I'm trying to say, Barack Obama speaking

about anything is the racial division.

Because he is a black man, he is embodied.

And as a result of that, whatever HE
speaks about

is automatically subsumed under the rubric

of race and is automatically, if not that,

radioactive because he's the black man.

I'll tell you what I mean. Republicans

had ideas that they loved that Obama

promoted. When he started promoted them,

they didn't like them no more.
>> Mm-hm.

>> Now that doesn't mean that that's

automatically a racial problem or a racist

problem, I am suggesting that the

accumulative impact of his presence there

has suggested that no matter what Obama

speaks about, that it will be divisive to

some people.
>> And do you think that's any different

from past Presidents?
>> Of course.

>> From Bill Clinton, from--
>> Of course. Other Presidents

have had horrible responses--
>> Right.

>> And people beating up on them,
impeaching them,

saying that they were murderers and stuff,

all that is real. But I'm saying there's

an extra layer with Obama. Right? As a

University of Chicago law professor said,

no other President has been subject quite

to what he has been subject to. So I think

that to acknowledge that is to talk about

what a difficult situation he's in. But,

the point I was trying to make is that to

dismiss however the issue of race by

saying, and he indicated this in the
"Race Speech,"

the famous race speech he gave in March--
>> In Philadelphia.

>> In Philadelphia in 2008, in response to

Reverend Jeremiah Wright's "Goddamn
America,"

extracts of that speech exerted and not

seen in the context in which they were

delivered, but he suggested there that

there are a lot of things going on. And

we bought Obama's narrative with that.

But race is what's going on as well. The

interest of black people--and when you

said earlier, you didn't say it quite the

way he said it when you said, he's the

President of everybody, Obama has

constantly reminded black people, "I am

not the President of black America." Wow.

Is that right? Didn't know that. Didn't

know that he was not--you know, I don't

think black people thought you were the

head of the NAACP, I think they actually

knew you were the president. You didn't

tell gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual

people you weren't the President of them

when you stood in defense of gay marriage,

which I stood with and for, masses of

black people were mad at Obama for that,

and I thought he was heroic to stand

against the vituperative, nasty hatred of

and suspicion of gay people in America,

including in African American communities.

But, I'm saying that when you say I'm not

the President of black America, that may

be true, but you are the President of

black Americans. We are citizens of the

United States of America and we deserve

to have respected, like any other

constituency, the interests we bring to

bear and demand from the President.
>> And you argue that African Americans

are disrespected and not given the same--
>> They're treated differently.

>> LGBT's, you mention Jews, other

interest groups--
>> Environmentalists--

>> have gotten more out of Obama than

black people have.
>> Well, yeah, for obvious reasons and for

some not so obvious reasons.
>> And what are the

not so obvious reasons?
>> Well, the obvious reasons would be

he doesn't identify in public as gay,

lesbian, transgender, bisexual or you know,

so he's not seen as hooking his own people

up, his own particular tribe. Whereas with

black people it would be like, what are

you doing there? Now, what's amazing to

many white people--most white people have

voted for a white candidate for President.

It never occurs to white people, "Am I

being a racist? I've only voted for white

people, I've only voted for white
Presidents,

43 times," black people do it one time,

"Oh my God, Jiminy Cricket, what's going
on?"

>> (laughter)
>> "There's a racial rebellion here."

And yet, 43 Presidents--ok, white people

remind me, my brothers and sisters, that

he's half-white too--43 and a half
Presidents

have been white.
>> (laughter)

>> Ok, so black people are understandably

defensive about the half-brother we got

in The White House. Right? And so, yes,

what I'm trying to suggest here is that

the President made a distinction when

speaking to black people that was
condescending.

To remind black people that after all

he is not their President alone, is to

insult their sensibilities and their

political sophistication. These are people

who have elected mayors, and
Congresspeople,

and Senators, and council people--these

people are relatively sophisticated about

what it means to engage in the political

process, so to remonstrate against them

morally in public had a dual function:

not only was it meant to distance himself

from a narrow, race-based thinking, it was

also meant to signify to white America

that he was capable of holding his own
in check.

>> Hm. Ok. Now you've also argued that

he treats--in his speeches, in the way he

handles his policy--he treats whites and

blacks differently in terms of
expectations.

That, you know, African Americans are--
he scolds--there's a chapter

where you talk about his scolding of

African Americans--
>> Mm-hm.

>> and where he tends to let white

Americans off the hook, and one line that

jumped out at me, I'd just like to read,

is, you said that, "Obama is willing to

underplay evidence of persistent black

suffering while promoting a naively

optimistic view of the depth and pace of

racial progress."
>> Mm-hm.

>> Those are two sort-of connected points
there.

>> Yeah.
>> Expand on that.

>> Well, I mean, to link them to the point

you were making earlier about the scolding

of black America... When you go to

Morehouse College, which is a historically

black college, a black male college, where

Martin Luther King, Jr. graduated, Maynard
Jackson,

the mayor of--the first black mayor of
Atlanta,

and many other distinguished figures that

went to that school, when you go there to

their graduation, and you use that as an

occasion to excoriate them, and to chide

them about responsibility and not making

excuses and getting things that you work--

you know, getting things that you don't

really deserve, I think that's an ironic
time to do that speech,

and it's an ironic audience to which he

delivered it, because they were,
after all,

not making excuses, they were graduating.
>> Mm-hm.

>> So, they were actually putting putting

hoods on. And on top of that, he says, for

people who get things...you know, people

in America--he said in a global economy as
well--

are not going to have any sympathy for

people who get what they have not earned.

The only person who didn't earn a degree

that day was him, he got an honorary
degree.

The rest of them had earned their degrees.

So, before--and I was there, at the 50th
Anniversary of the

March on Washington, which was a

breathtaking, and I do mean breathtaking,

dispiriting display of I think one of his

lowest moments as a public interpreter

of race. He's such a brilliant man,

he's such a smart man, he understands the

history of race in this country like few

other Presidents ever had, and yet in that

celebration, sitting there, he said that

black people were particularly responsible

for the stalling of racial progress in
America.

And he went on to suggest that because of

poverty, black people had made excuses not

to rear their children and the like.

You would have thought that you were

listening to a neo-conservative or a
right-wing analyst

and sociologist and social theorist who

was trying to pinpoint the pathology of

black culture as the basis for our
suffering.

And it was--speech after speech he's done
this.

>> Yeah.
>> I was there at the Congressional black

caucus when he said, "Take off your

bedroom slippers and put on your marching
shoes. Stop complaining."

Wow.
>> Mm-hm.

>> Now, John Lewis is in that audience,

John Conyers is in that audience, Maxine
Waters

is in that audience, people when he was

knee-high to a tadpole, who were engaging

in serious and sustained argument against

social injustice--
>> Mm-hm.

>> It was rather insulting.
>> So why do you think--he's doing that

because that's what he really believes,

that he disrespects, does not appreciate,

is ashamed of black folks? Or is it for

other--is it a strategy? Is it a political

strategy?
>> Mm.

>> Some people say, you know, he can't

talk about race, or he can't talk nice

about black people because then white
folks won't trust him.

I mean, now, whether that's true or not,

that is a belief that's out there. So why

does he do that stuff?
>> Yeah, you give me the answer--that's

interesting what you just said there.
>> (laughter)

>> None of which is in my book, but maybe

in the second edition I can quote you.
>> (laughter)

>> You know, look, it's a complicated
story.

No, he's a highly intelligent man, and,

you know, the late, great Maya Angelou is,

maybe it's apocryphal, I'm not sure, but

she is rumored to have said that when

people tell you who they are, believe them.

So we're trying to figure out, "What'd he

mean by that?" Let's just take him at his

word, maybe he actually A) believes it...

Alright? And there are--look, he is a

moderate Democrat. He is not a progressive

in the broader sense, even though as one

white author from Union Theological
Seminary argues,

and I think convincingly, that among

people who could be elected President,

he's one of the most progressive
Presidents

that we've had in quite some time, and

that is actually electable. I actually

agree with that. But in the broad scheme

of things, you know, we see that Obama is

subject to double standards relentlessly.

Right, right? What was this fear about
Obama:

"You're a SOCIALIST!" Now you got a guy

running, he ain't even hiding it!
>> (laughter)

>> "I am a Democratic Socialist!" Right?

Ok, that was a bad Larry David
impersonation.

>> (laughter)
>> I'm better with Ronald Reagan,

"Now there you go again." So now, you got

a guy who's out front admitting that he's

a Democratic Socialist. So we see that

white privilege operates not only in terms

of Republicans and conservatives, but even

within liberal and Democratic circles.

My point simply is this, is that Obama

believes, I think, what he said, we have

to take him at his word, and then beyond

that, I think he also understands, as he

did in the church here in Chicago,

Jeremiah Wright's rhetoric was
radioactive,

let me go to a black church and not be

heard criticizing white people, but let me

be seen criticizing black people. Would he

go to a white church and call Fathers, as

he did at that church here in Chicago,
fools?

He said, "Any fool can have a baby,

it takes a man to raise one."
First of all,

Jesse Jackson said that 30 years before

he did.
>> Hm.

>> But Jesse Jackson was balanced. He was

talking about the people who were engaging

in certain kind of practices that were

destructive within black America, and he

was also highlighting and underscoring the

vicious effect of white supremacy.

So there was a balanced attack. Obama sees

one side--you know, he is wont to quote

Chris Rock, and that famous saying of
Chris Rock--

Chris Rock says, the comedian, he says,

"Some black people want to be praised for

stuff they should be doing." And then he

gives the example, "I take care of my
kids."

And then Chris Rock goes, "Idiot, you're

supposed to take care of your kids. Why
are you asking

for praise for that?" Obama will quote
that.

>> Mm-hm.
>> But he won't quote what else Chris Rock

says. Chris Rock also goes on to talk
about

"Cracker-ass crackers." Now I don't expect
Obama--

and excuse me, I'm quoting a comedian.
I don't want you to think--

>> (laughter)
>> I love you, white America, I love you.

I want you to buy my book and I'll sign it
for you.

>> (laughter)
>> So, I don't expect the President to say

"Cracker-ass cracker," but he also says,

"You know what, white people also," this

is what he said in an interview in 2015,

let me give you a more powerful quote that

Obama might site. Chris Rock says,

"When people look at my--" he said,

"I have beautiful kids. They're
intelligent,

"they're smart, they're well-behaved,

"they're disciplined." He says, "So to ask

"me, has there been racial progress, is to

"assume that black people were themselves

"part of the problem as to the reason why

there wasn't progress." He says, "White

"people are now less crazy than they used

"to be. Let's keep hoping that white
people

"will continue to be less crazy than the

"crazier white people that we knew
50 years ago

"who disallowed progress." Now, some

version of that the President might put
forth.

Not calling white people crazy, I'm not
crazy.

What I'm saying is that he might also say,

"You know what, white brothers and
sisters?

"There's a shared responsibility here.

"There are things that must be done on

"this side of the aisle, but there are

"also things that the broader society must

"engage in as well." The failure to do so

gives the perception to even
well-intending

white people, "You know what, he never

"criticizes us, but he's always

"criticizing black people. They must

"really have a problem." When he

constantly lacerates them for failure--

let me give a perfect example--let me give

an example. When he came to Newtown, which

he should have come to, which he should

have gone to, and he shed a tear in
The White House,

down his cheek, he should have, he went

there and saw the wanton destruction of a

young man out of control. And Obama shed

tears over the deaths of those 20-some-odd

children because it represented, he said,

the worst day of his Presidency. And yet

people begged him to come to Chicago and

other places, and you can't cry where you

won't go. And, beyond that, the President

refused to go to Ferguson, refused when he

was--the other day in Detroit--to go

60 miles up the road to Flint, Michigan

where vulnerable, black children are

being poisoned by their government because

of the water that is there. What am I

saying to you? I'm saying that Obama not

only did that, but he went to Chicago.

When he came, he sat down, and afterward

he gave a speech, he says, the family

structure's wrong, the fathers are not

here, and so on. The young man who

murdered the people in Newtown? Child of

a broken family. He did not--
>> That was something he never

talked about.
>> He did not say to white America,

"You know, I'm afraid for you. Your

"families are being stricken by divorce

"at rising rates, the pathology that is

"inherent in the destruction of the family

"is of cause and concern for us." That's

not what he said. So why is it that when

he comes to black America he gives

lectures and moral remonstration, when he

goes to white America he offers resources

and empathy. And I'm saying to you, as a

fair criticism, not a bitter, nasty
criticism of him,

I think that's something we have to point
out.

>> And that's interesting you bring up
bitter and nasty

criticism, because there's some bitter

and nasty critics out there that you

identify in the book, and maybe you don't

use that term, but the Cornell Wests of
the world,

the Tavis Smileys of the world, and you

distinguish them, but from people like

yourself, other critics--what's the
difference

and what's going on there?
>> Well, Tavis less so than

Professor West, who has been nearly

unstinting in his vitriol and unrelenting

in the personal ad hominem attacks on the

President. Which is pretty--it's just
unprincipled.

>> It's, again, it's not balanced.
>> It's not--well, I mean,

ain't no balance in, "Am I going to call

you a doofus or a nut?" You know, I mean,

you know, there are choices among many

ad hominems. One is less abrasive than the

other, but I'm saying the resort to

name calling itself is a moral flaw at
that level, right?

There are many legitimate criticisms to be

made of the President, calling him names

is not one of them. "A mascot of Wall
Street,"

"A Republican in blackface," calling

people like me, or Al Sharpton, or

Melissa Harris-Perry "sellouts,"
"bootlickers,"

"prostitutes." Now, for the brothers and

sisters sitting here today, is that, West

calls Dyson "a sellout because he's

"consumed with Obama in a positive
fashion?"

Geez, where was he, and what's he
listening to?

Right? Because I try to be balanced in my

understanding of what this man has faced.

The difference in us I think is that many

of the critics who are principled, critics

of Obama, understand what he's up against.
>> Hm.

>> That every day he goes to work--a lot
of people

are trying to kill him. The most
threatened President

in the history of this country by far.

A man, if he says "left" they say "right,"

if he says "up" they say "down," if he

says "wet" they say "dry." The first
President

in the history of this country to not have

an automatic rise on the debt ceiling.

Republican and Democratic Presidents

before him: Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter,

and the like--automatic. With Obama,

not so. Cost us a bond rating, lowered it

in this country, in other words, a faction

of citizens who happen to be political

figures and representatives were willing

to cut a hole in the boat of the ship of
State

to satisfy their thirst to sink him, and

in the process, help sink the nation

because they were obsessed with him.

That's the kind of thing that many--
>> So--

>> of us who are critical of Obama also
understand.

>> And you don't think that Cornell West

appreciates that, or maybe might have said

it doesn't matter.
>> It hasn't made a difference in his

rhetoric.
>> Yeah.

>> It hasn't tampered--you know, it hasn't
tempered

his assault upon the President, and beyond

that, you know, he was a person who was

very close to Bill Clinton. Now, as Al
Sharpton says,

Reverend Al Sharpton says, whatever

criticisms you have of Obama, he said,

at least he didn't do something against

black people in the way that Bill Clinton

did when he signed the crime bill, welfare
reform,

and did horrible things to his friends

Lani Guinier, Joycelyn Elders, and not
his friend,

Sister Souljah.
>> Mm-hm.

>> (chuckles) So, he's got a point.
>> Mm-hm.

>> And at that point Professor West was

duly in the camp and he says he disagreed

with President Clinton when it came to

welfare reform but he didn't call him no

names. I know it's "any names."
>> (laughter)

>> He ain't called him no names.
>> Yeah.

>> He didn't attack him, he didn't assault

his character, and he didn't viciously say

the kinds of things about people around

him, like me, his former student, and

others, who took a principled difference

with him. And I spoke to Professor West

here in Chicago, and he said to me, he
says,

"You know what, you are just as critical

"of Obama as I am, but you don't catch

"nearly as much hell." I said, Well I

have a sixth inning theory of baseball.

And in the sixth inning of baseball, if

the game is called because of rain,

whoever is ahead is going to win. So I

said, I'm not going to start on the black

President. I have enough pride in his

achievement of office, I have enough

understanding of the incredible
difficulties

he confronts, that I've got to talk about

Mitch McConnell, and John Boehner, and

then Eric Cantor--I've got to talk about

you know, resistance to this man and the

obstruction that he has confronted, the

opposition that has been unprincipled, and

then engage in some serious analysis about

what he does. And I said, I always

emphasize my respect and love for him, and

appreciation for the difficulty he has to

confront. And I maintain that to this day.

>> So what has he done right? Is he--
>> A lot of stuff.

>> Ok. Give me some pointers in terms of--
I mean,

has he advanced race relations in this
country?

Are we a different country or a better
country

racially because of him? Has he--you
actually say

at one point that there are other
Presidents

that have done a lot more for black people

than he has.
>> I don't just say that, that's the

record. You probably agree with that as
well.

>> Well you think--
>> You think he's done as much

as LBJ? No. So, I mean--
>> LBJ and you also mentioned

Lincoln. Used as another example--
>> It's hard to free the slaves, yeah,

it's hard to imagine that.
>> (laughter) It's hard to beat that one,

huh?
>> It's hard to beat that.

You can't get the high score on that.
That's not--

>> So what's he done right?
>> A lot of stuff.

But see, that's the false positive, right?

That's the false opposition in an
equivalence.

It's not that because I'm talking about

what he's done on race that therefore

he hasn't done anything right, he's done

huge amounts of work that are right.

Right? Things that are right. He got into

office, he saved the economy. That's huge,

that's number one, he got into office,

the banks were about to fail. Now, I know

a lot of people are critical of him and

the capitulation to Wall Street--imagine

the headlines when the first black
President

gets into office, and the next day the
banks fail.

Dude, you ain't gotta worry about a second

term, you might not make it to next week.

Alright? They gonna be on you. So he can't

allow that to happen, I mean, in any sense

of a world that we think is viable.

He saved the banks, he saved the economy,

he bailed out the automobile industry,

and he gave us health care. I mean--
>> Ok--

>> That's pretty remarkable.
>> And so why isn't that good enough

for black folks? Black folks all
benefited from those accomplishments--

>> Well you're a black person, you answer
that.

Do you think that's good enough?
>> I'm asking you.

>> When black people are dying in the
streets?

Look, you ain't going to have no
healthcare

if you're dead.
>> Mm-hm, ok.

>> So, you have to live first.
Black lives matter because

in order to have healthcare you have to be

alive in order to receive it. In order to

make money you have to be alive to make
it.

So there are some fundamental structures

here that need to be addressed--why isn't
that good enough?

Why isn't that good enough for anybody?

It's not good enough for anybody. The lack

of dignity is not a good state of being.

And so--and not only that, the President,

in going out of his way to castigate and

to cast dispersions against black folk

and to lecture them, was depriving them of

one of the most valuable and viable
mouthpieces

for a set of issues that the nation needed

to grapple with, not just black people.

You know, I don't expect Obama to give the

Presidential speech on white privilege.

He knows about that. He's subtle enough to

understand how to thread that needle.

Right? He's "signifying" again, he knows

how to do that.
>> Right.

>> So there are ways in which he could
have used his talent,

as he did with Trayvon Martin, after that

speech he gave, and by the way, he was
pushed.

He didn't just give that speech because he
wanted to.

What was the first response of Obama to
Trayvon--to the

George Zimmerman verdict? Five, six lines,

"We're a nation of laws," "the verdict has

"been rendered," "don't burn stuff up."

>> Hm.
>> I think his own--

>> So when you say he was pushed--
>> I think his own wife and kids came on

like, "bro, bro, bro--"
>> (laughter)

>> "What you got? What you got? What you
got? What you got? What you got?"

>> "Gotta do better than that."
>> "What you got? What you got? Come on

"now. You the man, you got skills, you can
speak,

"I know you got skills, man."
>> Mm-hm.

>> Alright, so--and let me tell you why I

know this, let me say this, this is a

small rabbit, but I'll chase it--a former

secret service agent wrote a book, two of
them.

The second book, he talks about why the

secret service people loved Michelle
Obama.

A) because she was very warm to them,

she would touch them, ask how they were
doing.

B) they loved her because she would scold

Obama. She would say, "You are making

"these men wait, they have schedules too.

"Stop making them late!" You know Michelle

broke it down on him like that.
>> (laughter)

>> But here's why they didn't like her.

A) she was hard on the Republicans.
(gestures)

and B) in the back seat of the limo, they

said they heard her say, "Every now and
again,

"take the black people's side."
>> Hm.

>> Now that's south side Chicago black
woman rollin' hard.

That's representing. But! The fact that

she had to tell him is as revealing as the

fact that she told him.
>> Yes.

>> And so I'm saying, therefore, that

Obama was pushed into that--what's wrong
with pushing?

FDR, if it's an apocryphal story, Harry
Belafonte tells it and others,

FDR meeting with A. Philip Randolph,

the great black labor leader, and Mary
McLeod Bethune,

the great educational leader, and they met

with FDR in The White House, and they put
forth

a program--help the negro do this, you
know, jobs, voting and stuff.

He says, I believe in everything you're
doing now go out there

and make me do it. So Obama, in theory,

said that before he got elected. When you
get elected

it's different. But secondly, let me tell

you who prevented that--the masses of
black people.

Black people did not want Obama to be
pushed.

And I can understand that. He's the first
one--

when you've had 43 Presidents you're
bored.

Whatever...it's a dude...he's doing what
he does.

For us, it's everything. Everything is on
that thin frame of Obama.

So, as a result of that, when Obama was

pushed he did great things, he did better
things,

he gave that speech after Trayvon and he

explained to white America, "Hey, let me

"ask you a question. If Trayvon Martin,"

this is what he said, this is how he
talked about

white privilege without calling it that,

he said, "If Trayvon Martin had a gun and

"defended himself against George
Zimmerman,

"would the outcome be the same and would
he be allowed

"to defend himself in a 'stand your
ground' law?"

He said, "And if there is even a question

"about whether or not that may be true,

"then we need to revisit that."
>> Right.

>> All he's saying is, this is white
privilege,

examine it in a serious way. So he did

tremendous things when pushed in principle
to speak.

He gave a great speech at Selma, I was
there,

it was an incredible speech. The eulogy he
gave

at the Reverend Honorable Clementa
Pinckney's funeral

is one for the ages. So there's a lot that

Obama did that was beautiful. I think

he'll go down as one of the greatest
Presidents ever--

it will not be race that wins him that
plaudit.

>> Yeah. Got you.