(applause) (Laura Washington): Good evening and welcome everyone, I'm really honored to have the pleasure of sharing some conversation up here. Welcome, Michael! (Michael Eric Dyson): Thank you, it's great to be here. >> I know you come through Chicago every now and then, but >> Mm-hm. >> this is your old home, stomping grounds >> Yeah. >> from time to time when you were teaching at DePaul >> Yes, yes. >> and writing. We shared a spot on the Sun Times editorial page >> Mm-hm. >> when you were writing that great column and we miss you here! >> Well, I miss being here, and your crisp writing is ever as lively, and you know, I miss being here in the Chi. >> Well you're here tonight >> Mm-hm. >> to talk about the black Presidency. >> Mm-hm. >> And just wanted to open by asking you, what are you trying to accomplish with this book? >> Well, I wanted to, and I want to take measure of the use of race in the Obama Presidency, to talk about how race was used to frame the President before he got into office, to talk about how race has framed our perceptions of who he is as a human being, what his political and even personal desires are, and how his personal identity interacts with his political one, and then I wanted to also understand the degree to which race has been deployed against him since he's been in office. How has it been a barrier, how has it motivated people to obstruct what he has attempted to achieve, how has it facilitated some of those achievements, and how has it been used to deflect certain political issues, and how has President Obama himself been a racial procrastinator, and become racially hesitant, when it comes especially to the interests, politically and communally, of African-American people. >> Now, that's a very nuanced, balanced summary, but this book is tough on the President. Really tough. I mean, you had some praise for him, but there was a lot of tough love there. And I know you talk in the book about getting, wrangling an interview with The White House, >> Mm-hm. >> an interview with the President, that took some doing, and it wasn't as long as you would have liked, but I suspect that if you tried to get that interview now you wouldn't even get past the front door. >> Mm. (audience laughter) >> Would you agree? >> Well yeah, but it wasn't person--you know, the reason The White House didn't talk to me wasn't because--I don't think--they didn't like me, they didn't want to talk about race. >> Mm-hm. >> You know, I've noticed a couple of reviewers, they didn't want to speak about race, they didn't have anything against me, I was a surrogate for the President twice. >> And when you say they don't want to talk about race, you're talking about >> The White House. The Obama-- >> Are you talking about-- >> Administration. >> The President. Are you talking about the President? >> Well, they represent him, he hired them. >> But, yeah... >>So, the people around him. I didn't have his number, so I couldn't call him directly. >> (laughter) >> Well let me stop lying. I had his number before he became President. >> Yeah. (audience laughter) That one doesn't work anymore. >> He used to call me on his cell phone. >>(laughter) >> So, (laughs) >> So you're-- >> So he's Drake-ing me. No, so the President didn't want to talk about race, the Administration didn't want to talk about race, that is not a subject they wanted to engage. But most of my book, you know, it's eight chapters. Only two are taking the President under a rigorous scrutiny in regard to him A) scolding black America, and B) dealing with the police crisis in this nation. I open the book speaking about his extraordinary speech in Selma, I talk about some of the principle critique that has been put forth, I talk about his role as the American President and the black face of an American empire, I talk about his genius as a rhetorical figure within our community, I talk about his relationship to Jeremiah Wright and I try to balance both speaking about Reverend Wright in the historic legacy of the prophetic wing of the church, as well as Obama's kind of political obligations. So I think there's a lot of, tremendous recognition for the positive contribution he's made, but whenever you criticize also it seems to be out of kilter when most of the book is not that. >> Sure, sure that's understandable. And the juiciest stuff always rises to the surface. >> No doubt about it. >> (laughter) >> You know, let the beef burn. >> Let the beef burn. Well, so-- >> Sorry, Biggie. >> A big question that you come back to again and again >> Mm-hm. >> is the question of, Barack Obama and the Presidency and what does that mean, and you ask the question, is Barack Obama the first BLACK President, or is Barack Obama the first black PRESIDENT. >> Right. >> And you actually elude that you believe the President, Barack Obama, thinks he is the latter, he would prefer to be seen as the latter. >> Understandably. >> The first black PRESIDENT. >> Right, right. Understandably, right. >> Talk a little bit about that. >> Well, if you want your adjective to modify your noun... Or, you know, this President did not want to be "blackened" in a negative fashion. Right? Because his enemies were waiting, champing at the bit, to demonize him. To suggest, "Ah-ha! We have found and discovered that you have paid more attention to black people than anybody." Or, "You're trying to hook black people up." Or, one of the fears, people tend to forget this, before Obama became President, "He's going to do to us what we did to them." Now you can take that however you want, speaking in more abstract and general terms. So there was a great fear among certain subsections of white America that Obama was going to show the vitriol and the anger and the rancor that they thought was coming to them that they thought black people were harboring in their hearts against white America. >> I think that our experience in, you remember back to the day of Harold Washington, and I think there was a lot of that feeling in the community back then. >> Sure. >> And that's why whites were so in fear of that >> Mm-hm. >> historic election, and many people might say that the white-led city council opposition spent a lot of time pushing back >> Sure. >> to prevent that terrible thing from happening >> Sure. >> when they were going to get their comeuppance, and they wanted to make sure they never got their comeuppance. >> The Vrdolyak-- >> The Vrdolyak 29. >> Yeah, no doubt. >> And this is the same thing all over again. >> Absolutely right, it's a great parallel. And so, Obama didn't want to be judged by anything but by what other Presidents are judged by. Judge me according to the job I do. Judge me according not to my personal identity, or my pigment, or your fetish for the epidermis, judge me based on the integrity of my gestures in office and who I am as a political figure. >> And what's wrong with that? >> Nothing at all. >>So...you don't have a critique as far as--you feel that it's fair for him to not want to be judged as a black man, and because-- >> Black President. Right. >> Black President. >> Well, but here's the thing, if he wants to be judged like every other President, every other President has been judged according to what he did with race. If you want to be like them, >> Mm-hm. >> they did it too. And if I recall, none of them, despite conspiracy theories, were African American. >> Mm-hm (laughter) >> You know, some black people come up to me, "You know there were five black Presidents." Bro, if nobody knew they were black, they wasn't black. >> (laughter) >> It didn't make a difference, because if you don't treat them that way, if you don't know that they are...you know you can discover late in life, "Oh my God, I didn't know that I was a Negro." >> Mm. >> But if you had been treated like a white person your entire life, then the difference that makes is minimal. >> Mm-hm. >> So, my point is this, that every other President has been judged according to what he or...he...has done-- >> (laughter) >> Maybe soon that will change. What he has done in regard to the nation, but also what he has done in regard to the nation as it results in relationships to African American, black people, colored, negro, and the like. They've had to deal with segregation, they've had to deal with slavery, they've had to deal with Jim Crow, they've had to deal with Affirmative Action, so why is it that the first black President thinks because of personal discomfort, or the willingness, or the desire, excuse me, to distance himself a bit clinically from the discomfort he may feel because he doesn't want to be judged as a "black man" and as a "black President," that creates an entire set of fears that other Presidents have not had. That creates another layer of, I think, problematic distancing of black people from their representative government. >> Ok. Now, you say it has a lot to do with his personal discomfort, and I know you've got that phone number, you talk to him all the time, but some people might think there's other issues that he's, you know, he's got this incredibly hostile opposition in Congress-- >> Sure. >> In the Republican Party-- >> I talk about that. >> You talk about the racist response-- >> Yes, yes. >> He's got a lot on his plate, he is the leader of the entire world, he's a busy man, so why is it that-- >> That he ain't got time-- >> that some of those are some of the reasons that maybe he didn't get as much done or address race head-on as he should have? Does it have to do with him personally, or it has to do with-- >> No-- >> his job? >> No, well, it has to do--look, we don't have any comparative analysis here. >> Mm-hm. >> He's the only one. >> That's true. >> That's what happens when you're Jackie. Hey, what did all the black--? Oh, there aren't any. So when you're Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays hasn't come along yet. Larry Doby is not in the dugout waiting to take his swing at bat. So, you know, Don Newcombe is not yet present. So, he is Jackie Robinson. And an extraordinary figure Obama is, being the first equanimity, equipoise, balance, self-deprecation, humor, I mean, he's from Central Casting, let's be real. >> From Central Casting as far as the first black President-- >> I'm saying-- >> The kind of right person-- >> Right. >> At the right time. >> He's pretty good for white people too. >> Mm-hm. >> I mean, if he was just a plain old white guy he'd be extraordinary. >> Mm-hm. >> But for a black man, even more so given what it took for him to get elected. And I mean from Central Casting, for white brothers and sisters who have a problem, I'm saying if you got a problem with Barack Obama, you in trouble, because there ain't a black man been made that's going to be more amenable to the dominant culture than Barack Obama. Don't get mad, don't say stuff in anger, don't "Yes we can," "Yes I can," "Of course we will," "We'll try," and even when he gets mad he signifies. Right? Not the last State of the Union but the one before that. When he announced that, "I have no more races to run--" you know, very nice, casual, and the Republicans are trying to get a shot in across the bow, "Yeah, thank you." And Obama goes, "That's because I beat you." >> (laughter) >> Now, if I can be his anger translator, I could tell you what he was really saying in black speech. >> (laughter) >> Like, "What you want me to do? I beat yo [silently mouths expletives]." >> (laughter) >> Alright? I mean, so the reality is that Obama is signifying, radiating-- >> For those-- >> the implicit inferential value of blackness. >> For those in the audience who may not know what you mean by "signifying"? >> Well, I'm just saying what "signifying" is is that he is suggesting something that is beyond what's on the page. He is engaging in a symbolic representation of an experience that may not be literal but communicates something to people who are on the "inside." When you signify, you are looking at a particular experience, and the people who get it. When Jesus said, "Let those who have ears, let them hear"? Well, those who have ears, African American people, we get what he was saying, we get what he was suggesting, because of a culture. I don't mean that we were born with black interpretation as part of our birth--we were handed a bottle and a black interpretation box, that's not what I'm saying. >> (laughter) >> I'm saying because of the cultural signifiers that Obama was reared with, in part, you know, there was a communication, that's what I mean by signifying. And I think that--but to get to the point, to get back to my point, the point is that the President of the United States of America, when I say "personal discomfort," I don't mean that he didn't face all the stuff you talked about. But look how insulting that is, "Hey black people, he's too busy for the stuff you're doing. He's taking care of the real business." >> Mm-hm. >> Right? Like, the real business--I think race is pretty real business. And I think race effects everything, and why do we know this? Because nothing he said about anything else may have occasioned the similar response that he got when he talked about race. And isn't it interesting? You know, when people defend the President, and rightfully so in some cases when they say, "Look, the moment he speaks about race, it's radioactive." Oh yeah, versus, say, ISIS. >> (chuckle) >> Yeah, yeah, they loved him on that. Oh, they loved him on--they haven't tried to rescind-- >> Well race is a radioactive topic no matter who brings it up. Right? >> But this is my point, but I'm saying it's not just who brings it up, it's WHO is speaking about anything. It's not the topic of race, this is what I'm trying to say, Barack Obama speaking about anything is the racial division. Because he is a black man, he is embodied. And as a result of that, whatever HE speaks about is automatically subsumed under the rubric of race and is automatically, if not that, radioactive because he's the black man. I'll tell you what I mean. Republicans had ideas that they loved that Obama promoted. When he started promoted them, they didn't like them no more. >> Mm-hm. >> Now that doesn't mean that that's automatically a racial problem or a racist problem, I am suggesting that the accumulative impact of his presence there has suggested that no matter what Obama speaks about, that it will be divisive to some people. >> And do you think that's any different from past Presidents? >> Of course. >> From Bill Clinton, from-- >> Of course. Other Presidents have had horrible responses-- >> Right. >> And people beating up on them, impeaching them, saying that they were murderers and stuff, all that is real. But I'm saying there's an extra layer with Obama. Right? As a University of Chicago law professor said, no other President has been subject quite to what he has been subject to. So I think that to acknowledge that is to talk about what a difficult situation he's in. But, the point I was trying to make is that to dismiss however the issue of race by saying, and he indicated this in the "Race Speech," the famous race speech he gave in March-- >> In Philadelphia. >> In Philadelphia in 2008, in response to Reverend Jeremiah Wright's "Goddamn America," extracts of that speech exerted and not seen in the context in which they were delivered, but he suggested there that there are a lot of things going on. And we bought Obama's narrative with that. But race is what's going on as well. The interest of black people--and when you said earlier, you didn't say it quite the way he said it when you said, he's the President of everybody, Obama has constantly reminded black people, "I am not the President of black America." Wow. Is that right? Didn't know that. Didn't know that he was not--you know, I don't think black people thought you were the head of the NAACP, I think they actually knew you were the president. You didn't tell gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual people you weren't the President of them when you stood in defense of gay marriage, which I stood with and for, masses of black people were mad at Obama for that, and I thought he was heroic to stand against the vituperative, nasty hatred of and suspicion of gay people in America, including in African American communities. But, I'm saying that when you say I'm not the President of black America, that may be true, but you are the President of black Americans. We are citizens of the United States of America and we deserve to have respected, like any other constituency, the interests we bring to bear and demand from the President. >> And you argue that African Americans are disrespected and not given the same-- >> They're treated differently. >> LGBT's, you mention Jews, other interest groups-- >> Environmentalists-- >> have gotten more out of Obama than black people have. >> Well, yeah, for obvious reasons and for some not so obvious reasons. >> And what are the not so obvious reasons? >> Well, the obvious reasons would be he doesn't identify in public as gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual or you know, so he's not seen as hooking his own people up, his own particular tribe. Whereas with black people it would be like, what are you doing there? Now, what's amazing to many white people--most white people have voted for a white candidate for President. It never occurs to white people, "Am I being a racist? I've only voted for white people, I've only voted for white Presidents, 43 times," black people do it one time, "Oh my God, Jiminy Cricket, what's going on?" >> (laughter) >> "There's a racial rebellion here." And yet, 43 Presidents--ok, white people remind me, my brothers and sisters, that he's half-white too--43 and a half Presidents have been white. >> (laughter) >> Ok, so black people are understandably defensive about the half-brother we got in The White House. Right? And so, yes, what I'm trying to suggest here is that the President made a distinction when speaking to black people that was condescending. To remind black people that after all he is not their President alone, is to insult their sensibilities and their political sophistication. These are people who have elected mayors, and Congresspeople, and Senators, and council people--these people are relatively sophisticated about what it means to engage in the political process, so to remonstrate against them morally in public had a dual function: not only was it meant to distance himself from a narrow, race-based thinking, it was also meant to signify to white America that he was capable of holding his own in check. >> Hm. Ok. Now you've also argued that he treats--in his speeches, in the way he handles his policy--he treats whites and blacks differently in terms of expectations. That, you know, African Americans are-- he scolds--there's a chapter where you talk about his scolding of African Americans-- >> Mm-hm. >> and where he tends to let white Americans off the hook, and one line that jumped out at me, I'd just like to read, is, you said that, "Obama is willing to underplay evidence of persistent black suffering while promoting a naively optimistic view of the depth and pace of racial progress." >> Mm-hm. >> Those are two sort-of connected points there. >> Yeah. >> Expand on that. >> Well, I mean, to link them to the point you were making earlier about the scolding of black America... When you go to Morehouse College, which is a historically black college, a black male college, where Martin Luther King, Jr. graduated, Maynard Jackson, the mayor of--the first black mayor of Atlanta, and many other distinguished figures that went to that school, when you go there to their graduation, and you use that as an occasion to excoriate them, and to chide them about responsibility and not making excuses and getting things that you work-- you know, getting things that you don't really deserve, I think that's an ironic time to do that speech, and it's an ironic audience to which he delivered it, because they were, after all, not making excuses, they were graduating. >> Mm-hm. >> So, they were actually putting putting hoods on. And on top of that, he says, for people who get things...you know, people in America--he said in a global economy as well-- are not going to have any sympathy for people who get what they have not earned. The only person who didn't earn a degree that day was him, he got an honorary degree. The rest of them had earned their degrees. So, before--and I was there, at the 50th Anniversary of the March on Washington, which was a breathtaking, and I do mean breathtaking, dispiriting display of I think one of his lowest moments as a public interpreter of race. He's such a brilliant man, he's such a smart man, he understands the history of race in this country like few other Presidents ever had, and yet in that celebration, sitting there, he said that black people were particularly responsible for the stalling of racial progress in America. And he went on to suggest that because of poverty, black people had made excuses not to rear their children and the like. You would have thought that you were listening to a neo-conservative or a right-wing analyst and sociologist and social theorist who was trying to pinpoint the pathology of black culture as the basis for our suffering. And it was--speech after speech he's done this. >> Yeah. >> I was there at the Congressional black caucus when he said, "Take off your bedroom slippers and put on your marching shoes. Stop complaining." Wow. >> Mm-hm. >> Now, John Lewis is in that audience, John Conyers is in that audience, Maxine Waters is in that audience, people when he was knee-high to a tadpole, who were engaging in serious and sustained argument against social injustice-- >> Mm-hm. >> It was rather insulting. >> So why do you think--he's doing that because that's what he really believes, that he disrespects, does not appreciate, is ashamed of black folks? Or is it for other--is it a strategy? Is it a political strategy? >> Mm. >> Some people say, you know, he can't talk about race, or he can't talk nice about black people because then white folks won't trust him. I mean, now, whether that's true or not, that is a belief that's out there. So why does he do that stuff? >> Yeah, you give me the answer--that's interesting what you just said there. >> (laughter) >> None of which is in my book, but maybe in the second edition I can quote you. >> (laughter) >> You know, look, it's a complicated story. No, he's a highly intelligent man, and, you know, the late, great Maya Angelou is, maybe it's apocryphal, I'm not sure, but she is rumored to have said that when people tell you who they are, believe them. So we're trying to figure out, "What'd he mean by that?" Let's just take him at his word, maybe he actually A) believes it... Alright? And there are--look, he is a moderate Democrat. He is not a progressive in the broader sense, even though as one white author from Union Theological Seminary argues, and I think convincingly, that among people who could be elected President, he's one of the most progressive Presidents that we've had in quite some time, and that is actually electable. I actually agree with that. But in the broad scheme of things, you know, we see that Obama is subject to double standards relentlessly. Right, right? What was this fear about Obama: "You're a SOCIALIST!" Now you got a guy running, he ain't even hiding it! >> (laughter) >> "I am a Democratic Socialist!" Right? Ok, that was a bad Larry David impersonation. >> (laughter) >> I'm better with Ronald Reagan, "Now there you go again." So now, you got a guy who's out front admitting that he's a Democratic Socialist. So we see that white privilege operates not only in terms of Republicans and conservatives, but even within liberal and Democratic circles. My point simply is this, is that Obama believes, I think, what he said, we have to take him at his word, and then beyond that, I think he also understands, as he did in the church here in Chicago, Jeremiah Wright's rhetoric was radioactive, let me go to a black church and not be heard criticizing white people, but let me be seen criticizing black people. Would he go to a white church and call Fathers, as he did at that church here in Chicago, fools? He said, "Any fool can have a baby, it takes a man to raise one." First of all, Jesse Jackson said that 30 years before he did. >> Hm. >> But Jesse Jackson was balanced. He was talking about the people who were engaging in certain kind of practices that were destructive within black America, and he was also highlighting and underscoring the vicious effect of white supremacy. So there was a balanced attack. Obama sees one side--you know, he is wont to quote Chris Rock, and that famous saying of Chris Rock-- Chris Rock says, the comedian, he says, "Some black people want to be praised for stuff they should be doing." And then he gives the example, "I take care of my kids." And then Chris Rock goes, "Idiot, you're supposed to take care of your kids. Why are you asking for praise for that?" Obama will quote that. >> Mm-hm. >> But he won't quote what else Chris Rock says. Chris Rock also goes on to talk about "Cracker-ass crackers." Now I don't expect Obama-- and excuse me, I'm quoting a comedian. I don't want you to think-- >> (laughter) >> I love you, white America, I love you. I want you to buy my book and I'll sign it for you. >> (laughter) >> So, I don't expect the President to say "Cracker-ass cracker," but he also says, "You know what, white people also," this is what he said in an interview in 2015, let me give you a more powerful quote that Obama might site. Chris Rock says, "When people look at my--" he said, "I have beautiful kids. They're intelligent, "they're smart, they're well-behaved, "they're disciplined." He says, "So to ask "me, has there been racial progress, is to "assume that black people were themselves "part of the problem as to the reason why there wasn't progress." He says, "White "people are now less crazy than they used "to be. Let's keep hoping that white people "will continue to be less crazy than the "crazier white people that we knew 50 years ago "who disallowed progress." Now, some version of that the President might put forth. Not calling white people crazy, I'm not crazy. What I'm saying is that he might also say, "You know what, white brothers and sisters? "There's a shared responsibility here. "There are things that must be done on "this side of the aisle, but there are "also things that the broader society must "engage in as well." The failure to do so gives the perception to even well-intending white people, "You know what, he never "criticizes us, but he's always "criticizing black people. They must "really have a problem." When he constantly lacerates them for failure-- let me give a perfect example--let me give an example. When he came to Newtown, which he should have come to, which he should have gone to, and he shed a tear in The White House, down his cheek, he should have, he went there and saw the wanton destruction of a young man out of control. And Obama shed tears over the deaths of those 20-some-odd children because it represented, he said, the worst day of his Presidency. And yet people begged him to come to Chicago and other places, and you can't cry where you won't go. And, beyond that, the President refused to go to Ferguson, refused when he was--the other day in Detroit--to go 60 miles up the road to Flint, Michigan where vulnerable, black children are being poisoned by their government because of the water that is there. What am I saying to you? I'm saying that Obama not only did that, but he went to Chicago. When he came, he sat down, and afterward he gave a speech, he says, the family structure's wrong, the fathers are not here, and so on. The young man who murdered the people in Newtown? Child of a broken family. He did not-- >> That was something he never talked about. >> He did not say to white America, "You know, I'm afraid for you. Your "families are being stricken by divorce "at rising rates, the pathology that is "inherent in the destruction of the family "is of cause and concern for us." That's not what he said. So why is it that when he comes to black America he gives lectures and moral remonstration, when he goes to white America he offers resources and empathy. And I'm saying to you, as a fair criticism, not a bitter, nasty criticism of him, I think that's something we have to point out. >> And that's interesting you bring up bitter and nasty criticism, because there's some bitter and nasty critics out there that you identify in the book, and maybe you don't use that term, but the Cornell Wests of the world, the Tavis Smileys of the world, and you distinguish them, but from people like yourself, other critics--what's the difference and what's going on there? >> Well, Tavis less so than Professor West, who has been nearly unstinting in his vitriol and unrelenting in the personal ad hominem attacks on the President. Which is pretty--it's just unprincipled. >> It's, again, it's not balanced. >> It's not--well, I mean, ain't no balance in, "Am I going to call you a doofus or a nut?" You know, I mean, you know, there are choices among many ad hominems. One is less abrasive than the other, but I'm saying the resort to name calling itself is a moral flaw at that level, right? There are many legitimate criticisms to be made of the President, calling him names is not one of them. "A mascot of Wall Street," "A Republican in blackface," calling people like me, or Al Sharpton, or Melissa Harris-Perry "sellouts," "bootlickers," "prostitutes." Now, for the brothers and sisters sitting here today, is that, West calls Dyson "a sellout because he's "consumed with Obama in a positive fashion?" Geez, where was he, and what's he listening to? Right? Because I try to be balanced in my understanding of what this man has faced. The difference in us I think is that many of the critics who are principled, critics of Obama, understand what he's up against. >> Hm. >> That every day he goes to work--a lot of people are trying to kill him. The most threatened President in the history of this country by far. A man, if he says "left" they say "right," if he says "up" they say "down," if he says "wet" they say "dry." The first President in the history of this country to not have an automatic rise on the debt ceiling. Republican and Democratic Presidents before him: Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, and the like--automatic. With Obama, not so. Cost us a bond rating, lowered it in this country, in other words, a faction of citizens who happen to be political figures and representatives were willing to cut a hole in the boat of the ship of State to satisfy their thirst to sink him, and in the process, help sink the nation because they were obsessed with him. That's the kind of thing that many-- >> So-- >> of us who are critical of Obama also understand. >> And you don't think that Cornell West appreciates that, or maybe might have said it doesn't matter. >> It hasn't made a difference in his rhetoric. >> Yeah. >> It hasn't tampered--you know, it hasn't tempered his assault upon the President, and beyond that, you know, he was a person who was very close to Bill Clinton. Now, as Al Sharpton says, Reverend Al Sharpton says, whatever criticisms you have of Obama, he said, at least he didn't do something against black people in the way that Bill Clinton did when he signed the crime bill, welfare reform, and did horrible things to his friends Lani Guinier, Joycelyn Elders, and not his friend, Sister Souljah. >> Mm-hm. >> (chuckles) So, he's got a point. >> Mm-hm. >> And at that point Professor West was duly in the camp and he says he disagreed with President Clinton when it came to welfare reform but he didn't call him no names. I know it's "any names." >> (laughter) >> He ain't called him no names. >> Yeah. >> He didn't attack him, he didn't assault his character, and he didn't viciously say the kinds of things about people around him, like me, his former student, and others, who took a principled difference with him. And I spoke to Professor West here in Chicago, and he said to me, he says, "You know what, you are just as critical "of Obama as I am, but you don't catch "nearly as much hell." I said, Well I have a sixth inning theory of baseball. And in the sixth inning of baseball, if the game is called because of rain, whoever is ahead is going to win. So I said, I'm not going to start on the black President. I have enough pride in his achievement of office, I have enough understanding of the incredible difficulties he confronts, that I've got to talk about Mitch McConnell, and John Boehner, and then Eric Cantor--I've got to talk about you know, resistance to this man and the obstruction that he has confronted, the opposition that has been unprincipled, and then engage in some serious analysis about what he does. And I said, I always emphasize my respect and love for him, and appreciation for the difficulty he has to confront. And I maintain that to this day. >> So what has he done right? Is he-- >> A lot of stuff. >> Ok. Give me some pointers in terms of-- I mean, has he advanced race relations in this country? Are we a different country or a better country racially because of him? Has he--you actually say at one point that there are other Presidents that have done a lot more for black people than he has. >> I don't just say that, that's the record. You probably agree with that as well. >> Well you think-- >> You think he's done as much as LBJ? No. So, I mean-- >> LBJ and you also mentioned Lincoln. Used as another example-- >> It's hard to free the slaves, yeah, it's hard to imagine that. >> (laughter) It's hard to beat that one, huh? >> It's hard to beat that. You can't get the high score on that. That's not-- >> So what's he done right? >> A lot of stuff. But see, that's the false positive, right? That's the false opposition in an equivalence. It's not that because I'm talking about what he's done on race that therefore he hasn't done anything right, he's done huge amounts of work that are right. Right? Things that are right. He got into office, he saved the economy. That's huge, that's number one, he got into office, the banks were about to fail. Now, I know a lot of people are critical of him and the capitulation to Wall Street--imagine the headlines when the first black President gets into office, and the next day the banks fail. Dude, you ain't gotta worry about a second term, you might not make it to next week. Alright? They gonna be on you. So he can't allow that to happen, I mean, in any sense of a world that we think is viable. He saved the banks, he saved the economy, he bailed out the automobile industry, and he gave us health care. I mean-- >> Ok-- >> That's pretty remarkable. >> And so why isn't that good enough for black folks? Black folks all benefited from those accomplishments-- >> Well you're a black person, you answer that. Do you think that's good enough? >> I'm asking you. >> When black people are dying in the streets? Look, you ain't going to have no healthcare if you're dead. >> Mm-hm, ok. >> So, you have to live first. Black lives matter because in order to have healthcare you have to be alive in order to receive it. In order to make money you have to be alive to make it. So there are some fundamental structures here that need to be addressed--why isn't that good enough? Why isn't that good enough for anybody? It's not good enough for anybody. The lack of dignity is not a good state of being. And so--and not only that, the President, in going out of his way to castigate and to cast dispersions against black folk and to lecture them, was depriving them of one of the most valuable and viable mouthpieces for a set of issues that the nation needed to grapple with, not just black people. You know, I don't expect Obama to give the Presidential speech on white privilege. He knows about that. He's subtle enough to understand how to thread that needle. Right? He's "signifying" again, he knows how to do that. >> Right. >> So there are ways in which he could have used his talent, as he did with Trayvon Martin, after that speech he gave, and by the way, he was pushed. He didn't just give that speech because he wanted to. What was the first response of Obama to Trayvon--to the George Zimmerman verdict? Five, six lines, "We're a nation of laws," "the verdict has "been rendered," "don't burn stuff up." >> Hm. >> I think his own-- >> So when you say he was pushed-- >> I think his own wife and kids came on like, "bro, bro, bro--" >> (laughter) >> "What you got? What you got? What you got? What you got? What you got?" >> "Gotta do better than that." >> "What you got? What you got? Come on "now. You the man, you got skills, you can speak, "I know you got skills, man." >> Mm-hm. >> Alright, so--and let me tell you why I know this, let me say this, this is a small rabbit, but I'll chase it--a former secret service agent wrote a book, two of them. The second book, he talks about why the secret service people loved Michelle Obama. A) because she was very warm to them, she would touch them, ask how they were doing. B) they loved her because she would scold Obama. She would say, "You are making "these men wait, they have schedules too. "Stop making them late!" You know Michelle broke it down on him like that. >> (laughter) >> But here's why they didn't like her. A) she was hard on the Republicans. (gestures) and B) in the back seat of the limo, they said they heard her say, "Every now and again, "take the black people's side." >> Hm. >> Now that's south side Chicago black woman rollin' hard. That's representing. But! The fact that she had to tell him is as revealing as the fact that she told him. >> Yes. >> And so I'm saying, therefore, that Obama was pushed into that--what's wrong with pushing? FDR, if it's an apocryphal story, Harry Belafonte tells it and others, FDR meeting with A. Philip Randolph, the great black labor leader, and Mary McLeod Bethune, the great educational leader, and they met with FDR in The White House, and they put forth a program--help the negro do this, you know, jobs, voting and stuff. He says, I believe in everything you're doing now go out there and make me do it. So Obama, in theory, said that before he got elected. When you get elected it's different. But secondly, let me tell you who prevented that--the masses of black people. Black people did not want Obama to be pushed. And I can understand that. He's the first one-- when you've had 43 Presidents you're bored. Whatever...it's a dude...he's doing what he does. For us, it's everything. Everything is on that thin frame of Obama. So, as a result of that, when Obama was pushed he did great things, he did better things, he gave that speech after Trayvon and he explained to white America, "Hey, let me "ask you a question. If Trayvon Martin," this is what he said, this is how he talked about white privilege without calling it that, he said, "If Trayvon Martin had a gun and "defended himself against George Zimmerman, "would the outcome be the same and would he be allowed "to defend himself in a 'stand your ground' law?" He said, "And if there is even a question "about whether or not that may be true, "then we need to revisit that." >> Right. >> All he's saying is, this is white privilege, examine it in a serious way. So he did tremendous things when pushed in principle to speak. He gave a great speech at Selma, I was there, it was an incredible speech. The eulogy he gave at the Reverend Honorable Clementa Pinckney's funeral is one for the ages. So there's a lot that Obama did that was beautiful. I think he'll go down as one of the greatest Presidents ever-- it will not be race that wins him that plaudit. >> Yeah. Got you.