My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out
-
0:01 - 0:06My journey away from violent extremism
began 22 years ago, -
0:06 - 0:08when I denounced racism
-
0:08 - 0:11and left the American white
supremacist skinhead movement -
0:11 - 0:12that I had helped build.
-
0:13 - 0:18(Cheers and applause)
-
0:19 - 0:21I was just 22 years old at the time,
-
0:21 - 0:25but I had already spent eight years,
from the time I was 14 years old, -
0:25 - 0:28as one of the earliest
and youngest members -
0:28 - 0:32and an eventual leader within
America's most violent hate movement. -
0:33 - 0:36But I wasn't born into hate;
-
0:36 - 0:39in fact, it was quite the opposite.
-
0:40 - 0:43I had a relatively normal childhood.
-
0:44 - 0:45My parents are Italian immigrants
-
0:45 - 0:49who came to the United States
in the mid-1960s -
0:49 - 0:51and settled on the South Side of Chicago,
-
0:51 - 0:53where they eventually met,
-
0:53 - 0:55and opened a small beauty shop.
-
0:57 - 1:00Right after I was born,
things got a little bit more difficult. -
1:00 - 1:04They struggled to survive with raising
a young family and a new business, -
1:04 - 1:07often working seven days a week,
-
1:07 - 1:0914 hours a day,
-
1:09 - 1:13taking on second and third jobs
just to earn a meager living. -
1:13 - 1:17And quality time with my parents
was pretty nonexistent. -
1:17 - 1:20Even though I knew
they loved me very much, -
1:20 - 1:22growing up, I felt abandoned.
-
1:23 - 1:26I was lonely, and I started to withdraw,
-
1:27 - 1:31and then I started to resent my parents
and become very angry. -
1:33 - 1:36And as I was growing up,
through my teenage years, -
1:36 - 1:40I started to act out to try and get
attention from my parents. -
1:41 - 1:44And one day, when I was 14,
-
1:44 - 1:47I was standing in an alley,
and I was smoking a joint, -
1:48 - 1:53and a man who was twice my age,
with a shaved head and tall black boots, -
1:53 - 1:55came up to me,
-
1:55 - 1:58and he snatched the joint from my lips.
-
1:59 - 2:03Then he put his hand on my shoulder
and he looked me in the eyes, -
2:03 - 2:04and he said,
-
2:05 - 2:08"That's what the communists
and the Jews want you to do -
2:08 - 2:09to keep you docile."
-
2:11 - 2:13I was 14 years old,
-
2:13 - 2:15I'd been trading baseball cards
and watching "Happy Days" -- -
2:15 - 2:17I didn't really know what a Jew was.
-
2:17 - 2:19(Laughter)
-
2:19 - 2:20It's true.
-
2:20 - 2:24And the only communist that I knew
was the bad Russian guy -
2:24 - 2:26in my favorite Rocky movie.
-
2:26 - 2:29(Laughter)
-
2:29 - 2:31And since I'm here
baring my soul with you, -
2:31 - 2:35I can reveal that I did not even know
what the word "docile" meant. -
2:35 - 2:37(Laughter)
-
2:37 - 2:38Dead serious.
-
2:39 - 2:43But it was as if this man in this alley
had offered me a lifeline. -
2:43 - 2:48For 14 years, I'd felt
marginalized and bullied. -
2:48 - 2:50I had low self-esteem.
-
2:51 - 2:54And frankly, I didn't know
who I was, where I belonged, -
2:54 - 2:56or what my purpose was.
-
2:56 - 2:58I was lost.
-
2:58 - 3:03And overnight, because this man
had pulled me in, -
3:03 - 3:07and I had grabbed onto that lifeline
with every fiber of my being, -
3:08 - 3:11I had gone from "Joanie Loves Chachi"
-
3:12 - 3:14to full-blown Nazi.
-
3:15 - 3:16Overnight.
-
3:18 - 3:21I started to listen to the rhetoric
-
3:21 - 3:22and believe it.
-
3:23 - 3:27I started to watch very closely
as the leaders of this organization -
3:27 - 3:32would target vulnerable young people
who felt marginalized -
3:32 - 3:37and then draw them in
with promises of paradise -
3:37 - 3:38that were broken.
-
3:40 - 3:42And then I started to recruit myself.
-
3:43 - 3:47I started to do that by making
white-power music. -
3:48 - 3:54And soon, I became the leader
of that infamous organization -
3:54 - 3:56that was led by that man in that alley
-
3:56 - 3:58who recruited me that day,
-
3:58 - 4:03who was America's first neo-Nazi skinhead
and who had radicalized me. -
4:03 - 4:06For the next eight years,
-
4:06 - 4:09I believed the lies that I had been fed.
-
4:09 - 4:13And though I saw
no evidence of it whatsoever, -
4:13 - 4:17I didn't hesitate to blame
every Jewish person in the world -
4:17 - 4:21for what I thought was a white,
European genocide -
4:21 - 4:25being promoted by them
through a multiculturalist agenda. -
4:27 - 4:29I blamed people of color
-
4:29 - 4:33for the crime and violence
and the drugs in the city, -
4:34 - 4:38completely neglecting the fact
that I was committing acts of violence -
4:38 - 4:39on a daily basis,
-
4:40 - 4:41and that in many cases,
-
4:41 - 4:44it was white supremacists
who were funneling drugs -
4:44 - 4:46into the inner cities.
-
4:47 - 4:49And I blamed immigrants
-
4:49 - 4:53for taking jobs from white Americans,
-
4:53 - 4:58completely neglecting the fact that
my parents were hardworking immigrants -
4:58 - 5:00who struggled to survive,
-
5:01 - 5:04despite not getting help
from anybody else. -
5:06 - 5:07For the next eight years,
-
5:08 - 5:10I saw friends die,
-
5:11 - 5:15I saw others go to prison
and inflict untold pain -
5:15 - 5:18on countless victims
and their families' lives. -
5:20 - 5:23I heard horrific stories
from young women in the movement, -
5:23 - 5:28who'd been brutally raped by the very men
they were conditioned to trust, -
5:30 - 5:33and I myself committed acts
of violence against people, -
5:33 - 5:36solely for the color of their skin,
-
5:36 - 5:37who they loved,
-
5:37 - 5:40or the god that they prayed to.
-
5:41 - 5:45I stockpiled weapons for what I thought
was an upcoming race war. -
5:46 - 5:47I went to six high schools;
-
5:47 - 5:49I was kicked out of four of them,
-
5:49 - 5:50one of them, twice.
-
5:52 - 5:57And 25 years ago, I wrote
and performed racist music -
5:58 - 6:01that found its way
to the internet decades later -
6:01 - 6:04and partially inspired
a young white nationalist -
6:04 - 6:09to walk into a sacred Charleston,
South Carolina, church -
6:09 - 6:13and senselessly massacre
nine innocent people. -
6:16 - 6:18But then my life changed.
-
6:20 - 6:24At 19 years old, I met a girl
who was not in the movement, -
6:24 - 6:27who didn't have a racist bone in her body,
-
6:28 - 6:29and I fell in love with her.
-
6:30 - 6:32And at 19, we got married,
-
6:33 - 6:35and we had our first son.
-
6:36 - 6:40And when I held my son in my arms
in the delivery room that day, -
6:41 - 6:45not only did I reconnect
with some of the innocence that I had lost -
6:45 - 6:47at 14 years old,
-
6:48 - 6:50but it also began to challenge
-
6:50 - 6:54the very important things that drew
me to the movement to begin with: -
6:54 - 6:56identity, community and purpose --
-
6:56 - 7:00things that I had been
struggling with as a young boy. -
7:00 - 7:05And now, I struggled with the concept
of who I was again. -
7:05 - 7:10Was I this neo-Nazi hatemonger,
-
7:11 - 7:13or was I a caring father and husband?
-
7:15 - 7:19Was my community the one
that I had manufactured around me -
7:19 - 7:20to boost my own ego,
-
7:21 - 7:25because I felt self-hatred for myself
and I wanted to project it onto others, -
7:27 - 7:31or was it the one
that I had physically given life to? -
7:32 - 7:35Was my purpose to scorch the earth
-
7:36 - 7:40or was it to make it
a better place for my family? -
7:41 - 7:45And suddenly, like a ton of bricks hit me,
-
7:45 - 7:50I became very confused with
who I'd been for the last eight years. -
7:52 - 7:55And if only I'd been brave enough
to walk away at that moment, -
7:55 - 8:01to understand what the struggle was
that was happening inside of me, -
8:02 - 8:05then maybe tragedy
could have been averted. -
8:06 - 8:08Instead, I did compromise.
-
8:08 - 8:11I took myself off the streets
for the benefit of my family, -
8:11 - 8:15because I was nervous that maybe
I could go to jail or end up dead, -
8:15 - 8:17and they would have to fend
for themselves. -
8:18 - 8:20So I stepped back as a leader,
-
8:20 - 8:22and instead I opened a record store
-
8:23 - 8:27that I was going to sell
white-power music in, of course, -
8:27 - 8:29because I was importing it in from Europe.
-
8:30 - 8:35But I knew that if I was just
a racist store selling racist music -
8:35 - 8:38the community would not
allow me to be there. -
8:38 - 8:42So I decided I was going to also
stock the shelves with other music, -
8:42 - 8:45like punk rock and heavy metal
-
8:45 - 8:46and hip-hop.
-
8:47 - 8:49And while the white-power music
that I was selling -
8:49 - 8:52was 75 percent of my gross revenue,
-
8:52 - 8:55because people were driving in
from all over the country to buy it -
8:55 - 8:57from the only store that was selling it,
-
8:58 - 9:03I also had customers come in
to buy the other music. -
9:03 - 9:06And eventually, they started
to talk to me. -
9:07 - 9:12One day, a young black teen came in,
-
9:12 - 9:14and he was visibly upset.
-
9:15 - 9:17And I decided to ask him what was wrong.
-
9:18 - 9:22And he told me that his mother
had been diagnosed with breast cancer. -
9:23 - 9:26And suddenly, this young black teenager,
-
9:27 - 9:31who I'd never had a meaningful
conversation or interaction with, -
9:31 - 9:33I was able to connect with,
-
9:33 - 9:37because my own mother
had been diagnosed with breast cancer, -
9:37 - 9:40and I could feel his pain.
-
9:41 - 9:44On another occasion, a gay couple
came in with their son, -
9:44 - 9:49and it was undeniable to me
that they loved their son -
9:49 - 9:53in the same profound ways
that I loved mine. -
9:54 - 9:59And suddenly, I couldn't rationalize
or justify the prejudice -
9:59 - 10:01that I had in my head.
-
10:02 - 10:05I decided to pull the white-power
music from the inventory -
10:05 - 10:08when I became too embarrassed
to sell it in front of my new friends. -
10:09 - 10:11And of course, the store
couldn't sustain itself, -
10:11 - 10:13so I had to close it.
-
10:13 - 10:18At that same time, I lost
nearly everything in my life. -
10:18 - 10:21I used it as an opportunity to walk away
-
10:21 - 10:24from the movement that
I'd been a part of for eight years, -
10:24 - 10:28the only identity, community and purpose
that I'd really known for most of my life. -
10:29 - 10:31So I had nobody.
-
10:32 - 10:34I lost my livelihood
because I closed the store. -
10:34 - 10:38I didn't have a great relationship
with my parents, even though they tried. -
10:39 - 10:41And my wife and children left me,
-
10:41 - 10:45because I hadn't left the movement
and disengaged quickly enough. -
10:46 - 10:47And suddenly,
-
10:49 - 10:51I didn't know who I was again,
-
10:51 - 10:52or where I fit in
-
10:53 - 10:55or what my purpose was supposed to be.
-
10:56 - 10:58I was miserable inside,
-
10:59 - 11:02and I often woke up in the morning
-
11:02 - 11:03wishing that I hadn't.
-
11:06 - 11:07About five years in,
-
11:07 - 11:11one of the few friends that I had
was concerned about my well-being, -
11:11 - 11:13and she came to me and she said,
-
11:13 - 11:16"You need to do something,
because I don't want to see you die." -
11:18 - 11:22And she suggested that I go
apply for a job where she worked, -
11:22 - 11:23at a company called IBM.
-
11:25 - 11:27Yeah, I thought she was crazy, too.
-
11:27 - 11:29(Laughter)
-
11:29 - 11:34Here I was, a closeted ex-Nazi
covered in hate tattoos. -
11:34 - 11:35I didn't go to college.
-
11:35 - 11:39I'd been kicked out of multiple
high schools multiple times. -
11:40 - 11:42I didn't even own a computer.
-
11:43 - 11:45But I went in,
-
11:45 - 11:48and somehow, miraculously, I got the job.
-
11:50 - 11:51I was thrilled.
-
11:52 - 11:55And then I became terrified to learn
-
11:55 - 11:58that they'd actually be putting me
back at my old high school, -
11:58 - 12:01the same one I got kicked out of twice,
-
12:02 - 12:03to install their computers.
-
12:04 - 12:08This was a high school
where I had committed acts of violence -
12:08 - 12:10against students, against faculty;
-
12:10 - 12:15where I had protested out in front
of the school for equal rights for whites -
12:15 - 12:18and even had a sit-in in the cafeteria
-
12:18 - 12:20to try and demand a white student union.
-
12:22 - 12:25And of course, as karma would have it,
-
12:25 - 12:27within the first couple of hours,
-
12:28 - 12:32who walks right by me
but Mr. Johnny Holmes, -
12:32 - 12:35the tough black security guard
I had gotten in a fistfight with, -
12:36 - 12:38that got me kicked out the second time
-
12:38 - 12:40and led out in handcuffs from the school.
-
12:42 - 12:43He didn't recognize me,
-
12:44 - 12:45but I saw him,
-
12:46 - 12:48and I didn't know what to do.
-
12:48 - 12:51I was frozen; I was this grown man now,
years out of the movement, -
12:51 - 12:54and I was sweating and I was trembling.
-
12:55 - 12:57But I decided I had to do something.
-
12:58 - 13:02And I decided I needed to suffer
under the weight of my past, -
13:02 - 13:04because for five years
I had tried to outrun it. -
13:05 - 13:08I'd tried to make new friends
and cover my tattoos with long sleeves, -
13:08 - 13:10and I wouldn't admit it
-
13:10 - 13:11because I was afraid of being judged
-
13:11 - 13:14the same way I had judged other people.
-
13:15 - 13:19Well, I decided I was going to chase
Mr. Holmes out to the parking lot -- -
13:19 - 13:21probably not the smartest
decision that I made. -
13:21 - 13:23(Laughter)
-
13:23 - 13:25But when I found him,
he was getting into his car, -
13:25 - 13:27and I tapped him on the shoulder.
-
13:27 - 13:30And when he turned around
and he recognized me, -
13:30 - 13:33he took a step back because he was afraid.
-
13:35 - 13:37And I didn't know what to say.
-
13:38 - 13:42Finally, the words came out of my mouth,
and all I could think to say was, -
13:42 - 13:43"I'm sorry."
-
13:44 - 13:46And he embraced me,
-
13:46 - 13:48and he forgave me.
-
13:50 - 13:53And he encouraged me to forgive myself.
-
13:54 - 14:00He recognized that it wasn't the story
of some broken go-nowhere kid -
14:00 - 14:03who was going to just
join a gang and go to prison. -
14:03 - 14:08He knew that this was the story
of every young person who was vulnerable, -
14:08 - 14:11who was searching for identity,
community and purpose, -
14:11 - 14:12and then hit a wall
-
14:12 - 14:14and was unable to find it
-
14:14 - 14:16and went down a dark path.
-
14:17 - 14:20And he made me promise one thing,
-
14:20 - 14:23that I would tell my story
to whoever would listen. -
14:23 - 14:24That was 18 years ago,
-
14:24 - 14:26and I've been doing it ever since.
-
14:27 - 14:32(Applause)
-
14:37 - 14:39You might be asking yourself right now:
-
14:39 - 14:42How does a good kid from
a hardworking immigrant family -
14:42 - 14:45end up going down such a dark path?
-
14:45 - 14:48One word: potholes.
-
14:49 - 14:50That's right. Potholes.
-
14:50 - 14:53I had a lot of potholes when I was kid.
-
14:54 - 14:55We all had them --
-
14:55 - 14:58you know, the things in life that we hit
-
14:58 - 15:01that invariably just kind of
nudge us off our path, -
15:01 - 15:03and if they remain unresolved
-
15:03 - 15:05or untreated
-
15:06 - 15:07or not dealt with,
-
15:08 - 15:12sometimes we can get dangerously lost
down pretty dark corridors. -
15:12 - 15:14Potholes can be things like trauma,
-
15:14 - 15:17abuse, unemployment,
-
15:18 - 15:19neglect,
-
15:20 - 15:22untreated mental health conditions,
-
15:22 - 15:23even privilege.
-
15:24 - 15:27And if we hit enough potholes
on our journey in life, -
15:28 - 15:31and we don't have the resources
or the help to navigate around them -
15:31 - 15:33or to pull us out,
-
15:34 - 15:37well, sometimes good people
end up doing bad things. -
15:40 - 15:43One such person
who had potholes is Darrell. -
15:43 - 15:45Darrell is from upstate New York.
-
15:45 - 15:48He had read my memoir,
-
15:48 - 15:50and he was really upset about the ending.
-
15:50 - 15:52You see, I'd gotten out of the movement
-
15:52 - 15:54and he was still in.
-
15:54 - 15:57And he emailed me and he said,
-
15:57 - 16:00"I didn't really like the way
that turned out." -
16:00 - 16:02And I said, "Well, I'm sorry."
-
16:02 - 16:03(Laughter)
-
16:03 - 16:06"But if you want to talk about it,
we could certainly do that." -
16:06 - 16:09And after a couple of weeks
of going back and forth with Darrell, -
16:09 - 16:15I learned he was a 31-year-old
military veteran who had been injured -
16:15 - 16:18and was really angry about
not being able to go to Afghanistan -
16:18 - 16:20to kill Muslims.
-
16:21 - 16:22And one day on the phone,
-
16:22 - 16:26he told me that he had seen
a Muslim man in the park praying, -
16:26 - 16:30and that all he wanted to do
was kick him in the face. -
16:31 - 16:33I flew to Buffalo the next day,
-
16:34 - 16:36and I sat down with Darrell,
-
16:37 - 16:38and I asked him,
-
16:38 - 16:42"Have you ever met
a Muslim person before?" -
16:42 - 16:44And he said, "No!
-
16:44 - 16:46Why the hell would I want to do that?
-
16:46 - 16:48They're evil. I don't want
anything to do with them." -
16:49 - 16:50I said, "OK."
-
16:51 - 16:53So I excused myself,
and I went into the bathroom -
16:53 - 16:55and I took my phone out in the bathroom,
-
16:55 - 16:57and I Googled the local mosque,
-
16:58 - 17:00and I called them very quietly
from the bathroom, -
17:00 - 17:04and I said, "Excuse me,
imam, I need a favor. -
17:04 - 17:05I have a Christian man
-
17:05 - 17:08who would really love to learn more
about your religion." -
17:08 - 17:11(Laughter)
-
17:11 - 17:13"Do you mind if we stop by?"
-
17:14 - 17:17Well, it took some convincing
for Darrell to go, -
17:17 - 17:19but finally we got there,
-
17:19 - 17:21and when I knocked on the door,
-
17:21 - 17:24the imam said he only had
15 minutes left for us, -
17:24 - 17:26because he was preparing
for a prayer service. -
17:26 - 17:27I said, "We'll take it."
-
17:28 - 17:29We went in,
-
17:29 - 17:35and two and a half hours later,
we came out after hugging and crying -
17:35 - 17:39and, very strangely,
bonding over Chuck Norris for some reason. -
17:39 - 17:40(Laughter)
-
17:40 - 17:42I don't know what it was about that,
-
17:42 - 17:43but that's what happened.
-
17:44 - 17:48And I'm happy to say now
that Darrell and the imam, -
17:48 - 17:50you can often find them
at the local falafel stand, -
17:50 - 17:52having lunch together.
-
17:52 - 17:55(Applause)
-
18:00 - 18:03You see, it's our disconnection
from each other. -
18:03 - 18:05Hatred is born of ignorance.
-
18:05 - 18:09Fear is its father,
and isolation is its mother. -
18:09 - 18:13When we don't understand something,
we tend to be afraid of it, -
18:13 - 18:15and if we keep ourselves from it,
-
18:15 - 18:18that fear grows, and sometimes,
it turns into hatred. -
18:19 - 18:22Since I've left the movement,
I've helped over a hundred people -
18:22 - 18:25disengage from extremist movements,
from white supremacist groups -- -
18:25 - 18:29(Applause)
-
18:34 - 18:36to even jihadist groups.
-
18:36 - 18:40And the way I do that
is not by arguing with them, -
18:40 - 18:42not by debating them,
-
18:42 - 18:44not by even telling them they're wrong,
-
18:44 - 18:46even though, boy, I want to sometimes.
-
18:47 - 18:48I don't do that.
-
18:48 - 18:51Instead, I don't push them away.
-
18:51 - 18:53I draw them in closer,
-
18:53 - 18:58and I listen very closely
for their potholes, -
18:58 - 19:00and then I begin to fill them in.
-
19:01 - 19:03I try to make people more resilient,
-
19:03 - 19:04more self-confident,
-
19:05 - 19:09more able to have skills
to compete in the marketplace -
19:09 - 19:12so that they don't have
to blame the other, -
19:13 - 19:15the other that they've never met.
-
19:16 - 19:20I'd like to just leave you
with one last thing before I go. -
19:21 - 19:24Of all the people I've worked with,
they will all tell you the same thing. -
19:24 - 19:28One, they became extremists
-
19:28 - 19:32because they wanted to belong,
not because of ideology or dogma. -
19:33 - 19:35And second, what brought them out
-
19:36 - 19:38was receiving compassion
-
19:38 - 19:41from the people
they least deserved it from, -
19:41 - 19:43when they least deserved it.
-
19:43 - 19:45(Applause)
-
19:45 - 19:47So I would like
to leave you with a challenge: -
19:48 - 19:51go out there today, tomorrow --
hopefully every day -- -
19:52 - 19:57find somebody that you think
is undeserving of your compassion -
19:57 - 19:58and give it to them,
-
19:59 - 20:00because I guarantee you,
-
20:00 - 20:02they're the ones who need it the most.
-
20:03 - 20:04Thank you very much.
-
20:04 - 20:06(Applause)
- Title:
- My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out
- Speaker:
- Christian Picciolini
- Description:
-
At 14, Christian Picciolini went from naïve teenager to white supremacist -- and soon, the leader of the first neo-Nazi skinhead gang in the United States. How was he radicalized, and how did he ultimately get out of the movement? In this courageous talk, Picciolini shares the surprising and counterintuitive solution to hate in all forms.
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDTalks
- Duration:
- 20:18
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out | ||
Brian Greene approved English subtitles for My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out | ||
Camille Martínez accepted English subtitles for My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out | ||
Camille Martínez edited English subtitles for My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out | ||
Camille Martínez edited English subtitles for My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out |