Mooji - Interview with Mooji Advaita and Neo-Advaita

Recorded at Mooji's flat in London

This interview with Mooji about and Neo-Advaita is a response to a recent podcast, 'Advaita and Neo-Advaita Pros and Cons'.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVviGYd4JmQ Mooji speaks more in depth about each of these paths, not dismissing either movement but rather pointing out the common mistakes which are made by both. Somewhere between the two movements -- the freshness of the Neo-Advaita, along with the focus, depth, and commitment of the Traditional Advaita is where knowledge and being can become one. The outcome of the inquiry which has been refreshed will be steadfastness in the Self, effortlessness, direct experience, and unshakeable and irrefutable knowledge. True understanding brings light and space, gets rid of superstition, doubt and ignorance. Everything is washed clean by perfect understanding and true knowledge. Ultimately it's a win-win situation; everyone has to come home.
Music: Ziggy Marley - 'Love is my Religion'

[Music 'Love Is My Religion']

Interview with Mooji
Advaita and Neo-Advaita
2013

[Questioner:] Recently, you spoke about traditional
advaita and neo-advaita,

and we put this on the podcast page.

Can you describe again each of these paths?

[Mooji:] Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, to be honest
I don't really know that much about neo-advaita.

It's a term that I heard that I didn't...
I was not there at the birth of it.

I don't know what they are talking about.

But I have met some people who are

allegedly practitioners of it

and, you know, if their attitude is anything to go by,

if it is, you know, an accurate reference for neo-advaita,

then I say, My gosh! You know, we have to talk a bit more,

because they seem to be saying,
'Well there's nothing to do, there's nobody there to do it.

So what's the point of even inquiry, inquiry is a joke.

Because, who is there to inquire? There's only the Self.

Why does the Self have to inquire?'

And I say, Hey, hang on a second,
slow down a little bit there.

Who are 'you' speaking?

Who are 'you' who is speaking?

Are you the Self?

(They reply) 'Well, there's only the Self, there's no...'

I say, Yes, yes we know the talk. I know the talk.

Many people, they can speak like that but,

something energetically does not sit right.

You are .... definitely feel like, you are definitely a person,

saying that he is not a person!

And I thought, This is something very strange.

Like I mean, who do you convince like that?

I mean who is convinced by such a talk?

It sounds on paper very good,

if Ramana Maharshi was speaking like that.

And I'm saying, not because he's just a name,

but because I have read and listened to
Ramana's teachings

and found them thoroughly

what I would call, that they settle completely and confirm

very powerfully, experiences within my own Self.

Now, if those words were being spoken by Ramana,

and they would not be spoken by Ramana
in that way anyway,

but then, they would be more palatable.

But just to hear somebody saying, 'There's nobody there.'

I mean, 'Who is there to...? Who is there to realize?'

It sounds fine and it does catch quite a few people, especially those people

who have not really entered into the experience of seeing.

But who are more, sort of switched on,

by this type of talk that sounds so comprehensive
that there's nothing to do

and you have to be careful here,

because it can be very, very attractive to the ego,

to feel there is Nothing you need to do.

'And what about ego? There is no ego. Ego does not exist!'

And yet at the same time, in your life

this is very clear that some egoic identity is present,

denying its own egoity.

This is a very dangerous play, for me.

So in one point I can say, the words,

as far as words are concerned,

are true, largely.

But they don't equate to the experience itself.

And so in the end

it is the experience that matters, not the teaching.

A teaching is completely useless, unless they are practitioners

who somehow have recognized or grasped the teachings

so that they become experience.

Otherwise you cannot just keep believing something.

It has to be also experience.

So, this is one of my points

that we started to rub up against each other a little bit.

Of course what the neo-advaita groups, the ones who I have met,

what they say, something is refreshing about it

because they, like myself, also point to the immediacy of Truth.

That It is here, It is what we are.

The difference is I don't expect people to

'get it' only like this and that it stays.

Many people have come to

that profound state of recognition inside themself,

but it seems to be momentary, it doesn't last.

And then they feel like, 'Oh, my mind came back in.'

Of course it's going to come back in!

We have been living for quite a long time in the company of mind,

so it's not going to just vanish.

It's going to come back. And it's good that it comes back.

Because if you have fully understood,

then the mind cannot 'come back'.

It cannot cause anything by 'coming back'.

When it comes back it will be coming back now
as a devotee to the Heart.

It cannot be coming back to intimidate the Heart,

if the Heart has really understood the message, you see.

So the very fact that people say,

'Yeah, when the mind comes back and...'

or that it comes back but it doesn't really exist.

I say, No, no, no.
If it doesn't exist then it doesn't effectively come back.

Experientially there's no coming back.

You see. So this is another point.

When it is clearly understood, inside the Heart,

it is a confirmed experience, you see.

And then thereafter, if the mind feeling comes back,

it is understood that, that is just somehow

the play of waves on the surface of the ocean.

The 'Ocean Being', which is now not a belief any more,

but a confirmed Truth,

remains without any...

It is not upset by any play on the surface of the Being such as

the movement of emotion, of thought, projections or any kind of,

other kind of phenomena,
whether you may call it depression or so on.

This is redundant. This is finished now for that.

That is as far as the...
apparently neo-advaita movement, are concerned.

We can talk more about that.

If we go back to the perspective of what we call,

traditional advaita vedanta,

there are many practitioners equally

and very sincere in their practice.

There any many people in this field who try as best as they can

to follow Ramana's teachings in the Heart.

For the most part they approach with tremendous integrity,

the Inquiry.

What I have found however,

is that there seems to be almost a dedication to the practice

and I am wanting to see the fruit of the practice more.

Because you can get tied into a kind of practice

and the practice itself becomes the fruit.

And I have seen people who enjoy immensely to go and sit in

Virupaksha Cave, or you know, Skanda Ashram or some like this.

And I have been there myself. It is a beautiful space to sit.

But, if it is only about sitting in a cave you cannot spend...

well, some people can, but not most people

are not going to spend the rest of their lives in a cave.

And I am thankful for that, because if you come out from the cave

and find that you come out from your Self,

then I don't find that, that is really the experience

that Ramana is pointing to.

Any experience of silence

cannot be a silence that is being kept by anyone.

It has to be the silence which is
synonymous with the Self or the Being itself.

It is just there. Nobody is keeping silent.

When that is fully discovered,

then there is a silence to the background and foreground of Being,

whereby even if you had to shout or to speak loudly

or to act very, you know, visually loudly,

there is still a silence emanating from your Presence.

You are not a keeper of silence, you are not a keeper of peace,

you're not a 'peace keeper' necessarily.

You have no roles, no labels.

Nevertheless, there's a profound

emanation of peace and silence about you

and this is detectable by all Beings who have a sensitivity

irrespective of what their religious persuasion or background is.

It is something that is pre-dating religion.

It is the energy field that is somehow emanating

out of pure Presence, like that.

So I am not just talking about sitting in a cave.

Also there are people who are meditating.

They again, also can get into what I call

the 'trap' of meditation,

which is to be just meditating, meditating, meditating.

One should find out who is the meditator

and who is meditating,

for what purpose.

And, who will benefit from the meditation, you see?

Is it the Self that is meditating?

Is it the mind that is meditating?

Is it the body that is meditating?

Or is there another factor which is like the combination of

the Self and the conditioning that is doing the meditation?

These things are very important to discover.

So I am only speaking out,

so that we are not just

parroting

a teaching

without really going into

the real significant pointers of that teaching.

So,

these are the discrepancies I have noticed.

By all means, Sri Ramana Maharshi,

he encouraged people to continue with the practice

that feels most comfortable for themself.

But he kept on reminding, you know,

'Find out who is practicing,

and for what purpose?

Who is the practicer itself?'

If you are one who feels, you know, 'Inquiry is not for me.

More surrender is for me.'

I remember one statement, he said also

that, 'You must surrender the one who surrenders also.'

And that sometimes took a longer time for people to digest.

What is he talking about?

Because, you know, of course

if the surrender-er surrenders everything, surely that's enough!

Who is going to surrender the surrender-er?

But it was such a powerful,

scooping out, to say,

even the surrender-er if it doesn't surrender itself,

only survives as a surrender-er,

who having surrendered everything else, except himself.

So these final steps have to be taken and the swifter, the better.

Don't be dedicating six months, one year to any practice.

If you say that, the thing is that if you say, 'I want to spend the next six months

to do self inquiry or to do you know, bhakti yoga or jnana yoga.'

It's going to take you at least six months

because the mind works like that.

It is almost effectively like giving it a visa,

a six months visa. It's not going to go home early.

So I want people to really understand that.

And this is why I said actually,

Somewhere between the halfway mark,

between the traditional advaita teachings and practices,

and the neo-advaita movement,

the freshness of the neo-advaita standpoint along with the,

the focus, the depth and the commitment

of the traditional advaita practitioners,

will produce some good fruit.

What is the fruit that we are talking about?

Steadfastness in the Self.

Effortlessness, effortless conviction, even more than conviction.

Direct experience.

Unshakable, irrefutable knowledge,

where the knowledge and the Beingness, they are the same thing.

This will be the outcome of that inquiry

which has been refreshed, like that.

So I am not dismissing either movement, either practices.

But just saying that, these are the common mistakes
that are made by both.

There are many people who it seems as though, to say, you know,

'But there's nothing to do. There's nobody there to get it.' And so on

goes right to the very core of advaita.

But it only seems to go there, at a mental level.

There are many things we can seem to understand mentally,

that when you try to practice them you cannot
fulfill them through practice.

So it's easy to make the mistake of grasping,
'Oh yes, there's only That.'

But life, being wise and beautiful, will always confront you

and show and expose that your practice is not complete.

Because if you say, 'There is only, there is nobody there at all!'

But then the next minute,
you are suffering from the break up of your relationship

or the loss of money or something like this,

then it shows you, each time, that there is still someone there.

There is still this sense of personal presence behind the whole thing,

pretending to be a non-presence or a non-entity
or something like this.

So I just say, be mindful of that.

[Q:] So it's possible for anyone who is on these paths,

traditional advaita or neo-advaita, to realize them self?

[M:] It is possible but

it is not as easy as the neo-advaitists, they pretend it is,

or they claim it is.

I have not seen anybody who has come from that, who I feel

they have done it.

You understand?

I feel that there are many people who think they have done it.

But the 'smell' is still there.

I don't say it's not possible.

I don't want to limit anything.

Because there are some Beings who are really ready for that.

Who all they need is that final step, that final push,

and that seeing is just...all they need is to hear that

and something will pop right into place.

But they are rare and you cannot turn that into a technique.

They will be 'one-offs'.

For the most part,

what the neo-advaita standpoint is saying is that,

'If there is only the Truth,

all else is only ideas about the Truth,

shaped out of ill-conceived identity.'

Right, but that's True.

But are you apart from that identity?

Have you come out if it?

You see.

Are you out of its grip?

So Ramana was not concerned about, you know,

people getting things only intellectually.

He wanted you to get it right through and through,

to understand where the 'old you'

shaped out of conditioning and ill-conceived concepts

was completely merged or

either you can say that it thinned out completely, it vanished.

Or that it merged inside the Heart

and became one unitive Being, or something.

You see.

So,

both the neo-advaita practitioner

and the traditional advaita self-inquiry practice,

they can both get it. It depends on the sincerity.

The sincerity and also the openness, you see.

Because it seems a bit ridiculous,

that something which is so simple and so clear

is found to be difficult and the only difficulty that stands in the way,

the only thing that stands in the way is the ego itself.

And so it is no use one saying, 'Oh, there is no such thing as ego'

and then clearly,

you know like we say, The ego cannot smell its own breath.

So you are denying the sense of ego,

yet at the same time you exude ego.

You know, your odour is ego.

So I don't think it is good.

I don't think that these people, after a while anyway they give it up.

Not the ego, they give up the claim

because it becomes unbearable.

If you are making a claim about something

which is not true, thoroughly,

after a while you're going to have to give it up

because it will become a suffering for you.

You see.

Only the Truth... It takes tremendous energy to be the ego.

It takes no energy to be the Self.

So the fruit of that correct inquiry

is at the end, you are again in your effortless Being.

Not pretending, not keeping up,

not sounding great in front of your 'spiritual' friends.

But all those are gone for you.

You are not the same old, you know.

The mind is not the same old regime anymore.

It's been completely baptized inside the Heart,

the energy of the Heart.

And it's pure again, they are working in pure perfect synchronicity.

[Q:] You had mentioned something like those on the path of

traditional advaita tend to take themselves too seriously.

Can you expand on that?

[M:] I was just joking, really not so much.

They do sometimes take themselves too seriously.

I said this, because I met a number of them

who were arguing fiercely, you know.

And saying that, you know, 'It's not so easy like you say.'

I said, It's true, it's easier than I say.

You understand?

It's not even easy or hard. It just Is.

And if you insist

that only a practice can reveal,

'That' which a practice cannot block,

then you create these artificial barriers and distances actually.

I'm not saying that there should be no need for practice.

Practice is going to be necessary. Practice is authentic up to a point.

But only as is necessary.

I gave the example that if your car,

has not been driven for a while and now the battery is dead

and you need to go to work,

you are going to have to push-start it, you know.

If you don't have somebody to help you in another way.

You may have to have a few people around.
You have to push-start it.

And that push-start is effort.

And you are going to push and...

[panting]

[Engine starting sound]

and.. Vroom!

As soon as it fires up, you can stop pushing.

And the same with the Self.

In the beginning you're going to be pushing with some effort.

Pushing means effort.

Because the mind comes in and distorts your intention.

And brings in doubts and resistances and so on.

And there's not such any person who is exempt from
that type of attack, you know?

Resistances will come. 'Maybe this is not my right path'.

Especially if the path is right for you!

You start to feel, 'This is not good.
This is too heavy and it is very mental'.

And a lot of different resistances come.

And you cannot just fend them off,

with just some parroting of some teaching.

Although I am not really just making a joke of that.

I mean there are people who genuinely

understand it at a mental level,

intellectual level, intellectual conviction,

the whole business of the advaita, the neo-advaita outlook.

They understand,

but the understanding itself is mental and it's not enough.

They don't want to do...they denounce practice.

They denounce obviously ego and identity.

And these people, many of them have families

and they are hell inside their families.

Some of them,

they are in such, they are so tight,

it's like they put people off spirituality.

Because people see them and they are so tight,

they cannot hug because you know that's kind of emotional

and they just close themselves down.

There is some big sadness for me to hear about that.

Because they feel, 'No, no, no!'

They've got to be so rigid and it just gives off the feeling

that they are trying to keep something up,

that's not true.

Because there is a peace about Truth.

You are relaxed, you are comfortable with yourself.

And you are comfortable with other Beings.

You don't have to put up a shield in front of anybody, you know.

You can see all the different perspectives

and you can converse in a very beautiful way

for the sake of, you know, 'light seeing',

and,

and converse on these levels to open up

and to bring light to areas that are previously kept in
shadow and darkness.

And set the prisoners free!

Set the captives free!

[Laughs] Isn't it?

You have to set the captives free otherwise what it is?

We're not here to just debate and to confront.

Confront when it is time to confront,

but pour a light upon what is held in the shade.

Like that.

So, that is important for me.

That people are given the chance to really look

and to examine in an authentic way.

To just deny, if you are only denying, 'Oh this doesn't exist,'

then effectively you're in another kind of belief system.

You know, 'Don't do this! Don't do that!' Why?

'Because it doesn't exist!' It's not enough!

Even children don't accept that type of training.

But many adults do, you know?

We just, we're living on rumors.

But we are here now speaking about direct experience.

Understanding, also.

And it's sadly missing here, you know.

Either it's been replaced by sophistication of thought,

posing as real knowledge,

or it's altogether disregarded, you see.

But understanding brings light and space again to people.

It gets rid of superstition, suspicious-ness, doubt.

Ignorance.

All of this is washed clean by the soap of

perfect understanding and true knowledge, you see.

About advaita, traditional point,

they themselves are more consistent.

They are willing to face the often cathartic reactions that come up

when you are on to a kind of,

what I would call, some deep-rooted tendencies

as you begin to bring light towards those areas.

You know? Things start to come up. You start to feel uncomfortable

and maybe this is what many of these people

who are practicing new-advaita are afraid of.

These cathartic reactions,
because you don't know when it's going to stop.

But it's a genuine response to looking deeply into the Truth.

And you 'burp' up the stale energies,

whatever is not in service to the Truth,

they start to come to the surface.

Like I say, If there's an earthquake in the ocean,

the bubbles are coming from the bottom, they come to the top,

they pop and they disappear, they don't go down.

So something happens powerfully

and what happens is that the bubbles of discontent,

of doubt, and fear, resistance,

they are coming to the surface, they pop.

And they create a little bit, somehow a bit of noise.

But then the teacher and you should, if you are able to be,

find a teacher

in whose presence your Heart feels comfortable, feels good.

Even if you feel uncomfortable, it can be a good discomfort.

Some people know how to read these things.

They feel a little bit challenged, but they know on some level,

'This is very good for me.'

Stay in this place and bathe in the light and presence of such a

presence, a teacher or something,

who will guide you beyond the pitfalls of the ego,

and to the safe place

where you go beyond these fears and suspicious-ness,

superstition, arrogance, egotism, all these things.

They create very, very...

They create trouble inside the Being.

The teacher has the power and the Grace and the authority

to drive out these forces or to help you to see them.

And to walk side-by-side with you as you evict them

through your own authority of seeing. Like that.

So I encourage those people who are
more of the traditional perspective

and don't be afraid also.

On a number of occasions, myself, I've had to push,

to throw a grenade in the pram.

As I said, sometimes you have to do that.

You have to throw a grenade into the nursery.

Nursery means what?

Very delicate concepts. Very delicate concepts.

Too protective.

So I throw a grenade in there, you see.

And it's not a very nice image

but it blows up the place.

And then somehow when the air clears, then 'phew'

you are again into a freshness, you see.

And it's very important

that in authentic seeing as well too,

sometimes you feel some burning, you feel a fire, something.

Sometimes, not always.

But you know something is going, you are losing your sense of,

'Oh, I know what's going on.'

You really don't know anything what's going on.

And that really is a blessed state.

Surrender to it. Just be open and you become like a child again.

You see. The mind wants to know what's going on

and the Master says, 'Not your business. Keep quiet.'

You see.

You have had enough time to know what is going on,

still you don't know what's going on.

Now you keep quiet, you see.

And like this, your peace can return again to the Being. Like that.

[Q:] It seems like the most important thing is,

on this path is to have a genuine urge for Truth

and also to be with someone,
a Master who has gone beyond all of this.

[M:] If you have a genuine urge for Truth,

then life will arrange the right master for you.

If you don't have a genuine, you may have an urge

but maybe it has some selfishness, it has some different things also.

It may still bring you to a very, very good master also,

depends, nobody can say about these things.

But if you have a sincere wish

or urge to discover the True,

then you don't need to worry, your path will be fine.

You will meet somebody, who will meet somebody, know somebody

and the next minute you know you are sitting
in somebody's front room,

bathing in wisdom, you know.

Because there are some people on the road for a very very long time.

And there are others they just walk off a street

and they are walking into the room of nirvana itself.

So, nobody can know ahead of time.

And,

you know ultimately, it's a win win situation.

Everybody has to come out at some point.

It's just a question of time.

[Q:] What would you say to someone who is listening to this talk

and who is on either of these paths

and now that maybe as a result of this talk,

is kind of questioning their own...

[M:] Questioning is good. Questioning is good.

Initially it might make you feel, bring in a bit of confusion.

But this just means that something is opened up again.

Maybe it was tightening up a bit too early in the wrong direction.

So now it opens up again,

some air gets inside it, some breeze a little bit

and you know, you have to bear these things.

You have to be strong enough to bear these things.

Otherwise, because you cannot be a wimp
and find the truth, you know.

You have to have a bit of muscle.

And so sometimes you get knocked about a bit,

but you get up like a little child.

Look how weak they are, but they have the urge to walk

and how many times they are going to fall down, so many times.

But they keep getting up, they don't cry,
'Oh, I am going to fall down again.'

They just keep doing it, until they go through.

And, this is easier!

Because it is not your mind

in a way that, you know, is stirred into the desire for Truth.

It's something which is a deeper movement

and it means that once you feel this movement,

the whole universe is coming to serve you actually.

But also there is something else inside that mix,

that is going to try and you know, come up with resistances,

which is some of the food you have swallowed over the years, also

and you are not quite sure if it is good or bad

and this is going to be in the mix as well.

But then you must exercise your powers of discernment and you see,

move through all of this quickly,

come home and enjoy the rest of your life.

It is said, when they ask you know,
'After you realize the Self, then what happens?'

I said, Well the rest of your life is to enjoy.

But the sage's enjoyment is not like other people's enjoyment.

They are not enjoying, going around doing foolish things.

Their joy is just really I would say, its more to see

the Beings coming awake to that recognition of them-self.

But I understand fully that the Beingness is just joy!

Everything it does, even when it is sick or whatever it is, it is still

joy underlies and its greater than any other manifestations.

It is just unstoppable, this joy, this inner space.

This... I don't know if joy is the word, joy is not a bad word

because everything feels so delightful.

Yes.

Okay.

[Q:] Thank you Mooji.
[M:] Thank you, thank you, thank you.

True understanding brings light and space,
gets rid of superstition, doubt and ignorance.

Everything is washed clean
by perfect understanding
and true knowledge.

[Music] 'Love Is My Religion'.

www.mooji.org