Direction, Aspiration, and Obstacles on the Path | A Monastic Q&A Session

This session was recorded during our first week of the Plum Village Summer Opening retreat in July 2023.

Thumbnail photo credit ©Jerome Cabeen -- jeromecabeenphotography.com

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Br. Phap Huu: Good morning,
dear respected Thay,

dear brothers, dear sisters,
dear friends.

I hope you had a relaxing
and lazy morning.

You could sleep in
and feel more rested

and enjoy the wonderful space
provided for us

to be in touch with our breath,
with the trees, with the space.

We have an opportunity
for questions & answers.

This is a great opportunity
to put into words something

we may have been chewing on
for a long time.

But with regards to the practice
of mindfulness and meditation.

the teachings of Plum Village,
and looking back

at our way of life,
our happiness, our suffering

and how to apply the practice
in our daily lives.

This is an opportunity to ask questions.
We call it "Asking from the heart."

We tend to come more
towards the intellect,

but here in Plum Village
we always encourage to ask:

How do we bring these teachings
into our daily life?

This is more important to us
than philosophy.

And we have children with us.
I'm surprised they are here.

I thought you would
enjoy more laziness.

It is a wonderful tradition to have
space for the children to ask questions.

We would like to offer space to the kids
to ask three to four questions.

A good question can benefit many of us.
It doesn't have to be long.

It can be clear and simple.

We have our brother filming the session.

Please raise your hand if you
prefer not to be on camera

and our brother will know. He will
focus the camera on the monastics.

So you can be at ease if you would like
to ask a question, but not be filmed.

Before we listen to a question,
we will listen to a sound of the bell

to come back to our breathing,
and then we ask the question.

So, we would like to invite
the children first.

If there is a child with a question,
you are welcome to come up

and sit on this chair and breathe with us.
And then you can ask your question.

Do any of you have a question?

We do.

[sound of the bell]

Dear community, this is the first
question. Our friend will ask in Italian.

Giacomo: [Italian] If there is
something that we like to do,

and we see someone else
do something that we might not like,

but so many people are doing it,
why do we end up doing that, too?

Voice offscreen: I will try to translate it
and Giacomo can help me

if it's not correct, because
you speak English quite well?

I think the idea is: We know what we want,
what we like to do.

But then we see others do something
that we don't approve of.

We don't like what they're doing.

How come we end up what they're doing
even though we don't like it?

Br. Phap Huu: Do you need translation?

Br. Phap Linh: Thank you.
That's a great question.

We could all ask ourselves that question
at the level of the whole planet.

Why, when there are things that we know
we don't want to do, or we don't like,

but we see that society is going that way,
and we end up doing it as well.

That can happen with a group of friends,
or in a choice of career that we make,

or how much money we think we need,
where we should live,

what lifestyle we think we should have.
It's all a similar problem.

We get pulled into things that
at some level we don't want to do,

but we find ourselves doing anyway.

So ... I think the first question
that I would ask.

You started by saying that we know
what it is that we like to do.

We know what we want.
I'm not sure that that's true.

We kind of know.
But do we really know?

Do we know with the power,
with the strength,

that would be enough to stop us
from getting pulled into things

that we don't want to do?

So we know a little bit.

But could we make that more clear?

What is it that we want to do
and what is it we do not want to do?

That takes contemplation. In a way,
that's what meditation can be for.

Our teacher used to ask us to go
and quietly sit in the forest

and ask ourselves:
What is my deepest desire?

What is the thing that I want most of all?

Because when we know that really clearly,
it makes it much easier to say No

when other people are trying
to pull us into something.

That's the first thing. Do we really know
what it is we do and don't want to do?

And the second thing is that
there's a competition in us,

because we like two things:

We like to do the thing we want to do,
but we also like to be with our friends.

We like to feel connected to others.

We like to not stick out,
so that we're not left out of the group.

If there's a group going one way, a strong
part of us wants to be part of the group.

Even if they're doing something
we don't really want to do.

There are two different pulls.
One is: I need to be part of the group.

I am in danger if I'm not
part of the group.

There's a very old feeling in our bodies.
For a long time, maybe millions of years,

if we didn't belong to the group,
we wouldn't be able to survive.

We would die. So there's a
strong need to be part of the group.

And when that need is in conflict
with this other part of us that says:

"I don't want to do what they're doing",
it's difficult.

It depends which one is stronger.
But it helps just to know that.

You're here, we're all here. We've heard
about the energy of mindfulness.

The energy that allows us to be aware
what's going on inside and around us.

That is the capacity to recognise:
"I want to be part of the group."

When you can see and recognise it,
you also have a bit more freedom.

"I know, I hear you. I hear the part
of me that wants to jump in,

but I can also say No thank you."

Sometimes in a group,
when there's one person that says:

" No. Actually, I don't want to do that."

Then maybe there's two or three
or four other people in the group

who also feel uncomfortable.
Once that one person has said no,

they can also say: "Actually,
I also don't want to do that."

And suddenly, the whole group
can change direction

because one person had
the freedom and the courage to say No.

It's like you are watching
what's happening around you,

but a part of you is watching
what is happening inside of you.

It's like you have an eye tracking:
"I want to jump in,

but I also don't feel comfortable
with what we're doing."

And then you get to choose.

Because otherwise you jump in
before you even know.

It just happens, and then later,
maybe a day, maybe a week later,

you realize you didn't want to do that.
But with the energy of mindfulness,

you have more time,
you have more freedom to choose.

And then maybe many other people
in the group will thank you later

because they also didn't want to do that.

And thanks to you,
they had the choice to say No.

Maybe as a society we're a bit like that.

We rely on a few people with the strength
and awareness to say no to the current

that is taking us in the direction
of destroying the planet

and causing suffering to each other.

Maybe if a few of us can see us and say:
"We don't want to go that way",

then others can get to also say No
and go a different way.

Thank you for your question.

[sound of the bell]

Girl: (French) Do plants
have a nervous system?

For example if you snap a twig,
are you hurting the tree?

Br. Phap Linh: Do the plants
have a nervous system?

For example if you break a branch,
does it hurt the plant?

Br. Phap Huu: The quickest answer
is "Oui" - yes.

Br. Phap Linh: I can add a little bit.

I would say the answer is yes and no.

Because they don't exactly
have a nervous system like ours.

There's no central brain where
all the nerve impulses arrive.

It's been a question in science
for a long time.

And most scientists have said:
"No, plants don't feel anything."

But it's changing. So in recent years,
there are a few scientists

finding evidence to say that plants
do feel and we still don't know how.

But we know that there are electrical
signals passed through the plant cells -

all cells are electrical in nature,
just like nerve cells.

They're not exactly like brain cells,

but they are similar enough
that there is a Spanish scientist

who really believes, and has good
evidence to show, that plants can feel.

One of the ways they can test this
is by using anaesthesia.

If you have to go to a hospital
to have surgery,

they give you an injection or a gas
that makes you fall asleep,

so you don't feel any pain.

For a long time, everybody thought
that only works on humans and animals.

But plants respond to anaesthesia
in very much the same way,

to being put to sleep.

This is all very new research.
You ask a very good question.

You could make
a whole career as a scientist

out of trying to answer that question.

But that's answering
at the level of the head.

There's also an answer
at the level of the heart.

It's the answer that Thay Phap Huu gave

and it's the answer you already know.

We don't feel comfortable
to break a plant for no reason.

We feel like maybe we should
respect them a little bit more.

We should care for them
a little bit better.

Maybe we should not be so sure
that it is only us who can feel things.

If we're very sure,
we can cause a lot of harm

we can be very careless.

But if we're not sure,
if there's a part of us wondering:

"Will the tree feel it
if I break the branch?"

that little space of openness, of
"I don't know, maybe the tree can feel it"

can make us more careful.

Not only as individuals,
but collectively as a species.

There's an awakening happening
in the whole of society.

There are more and more people
waking up to the suffering

that we are maybe causing to
not just the animals that we kill to eat,

but also to the trees that we cut to
build houses, like this meditation hall,

the paper that we use in the toilet,
or to write on.

Maybe it is impossible to live completely
without hurting anything.

It's actually really hard.

But maybe there's a way to live
where we cause as little harm as possible.

We try to do less damage.
Maybe we can't do no damage.

But I'm sure we can do less damage.

Thank you for your question.

Br. Phap Huu: One more question
from the children sangha.

If there are no more questions
from the children sangha,

you are welcome to stay or
you are welcome to go out and play.

I was told there's no children program,
but there's a lot of space.

So feel free.

And now we'd like to offer space
for the bigger children.

if you have questions from the heart,
you are welcome to come up

just like the children to ask
your questions to all of us adults.

[sound of the bell]

Woman: Okay. I'm nervous.
Lots of people.

It's a question I've had
in my head for some months.

It's about how to handle
the suffering that is attached

to a mental formation that has its
beginning somewhere during childhood,

something traumatic that happened.

Because it's different to handle emotions
that come back in a never-ending circle,

or an emotion that comes from something
that happens in a moment and goes away.

I'd like a little advice how to do it.

It confuses me to learn something that
helps me to always be happy or be at peace

but without wanting that the pain
goes away. It's like a contradiction:

How to embrace it without getting
caught in it, or holding it back.

The concrete question is: How can I see
when something that comes up

needs to be embraced, or I can just
let it go and focus on something else,

or how can I see the point
where I'm holding it back?

This difference where I'm embracing it
or where I'm getting stuck on it.

How to let it go
without wanting to let go.

I hope you understand it.

Br. Phap Huu: Thank you for your question.

I will share from my own experience
as a practitioner.

First of all, we have to understand that
meditation is not to get rid of feelings.

We don't practice it to have a single
field of emotions that we feel is us.

But meditation, mindfulness,
is the ability to stop,

to recognise what is happening,
what is present.

Name it. To identify it.
To call it by its name.

And that is acceptance.

For me, a good word that I use,
particularly with emotions

and feelings that are very linked
to childhood experiences,

is to befriend it.
To befriend that emotion, that feeling.

We can have a natural reaction, like
trying to get rid of it, or run from it.

I've run away from particular
emotions for a very long time.

Like you shared in your question,
it doesn't go away.

The word that we use
in our training is 'transformation'.

We can transform a seed, a feeling
that we have experienced

into another feeling.

Inviting another feeling
to embrace and take care.

Mindfulness is an energy
that we can cultivate

to befriend these emotions.

The practice of our arriving
in every moment is the present moment.

The present moment
is the place where life truly is.

Where we can invite that emotion
to be present, to embrace it

with our present moment of who you are.

I can say that all of us have suffered.

Suffering is a noble truth.
We all can understand suffering.

It can make us relate to one another.

Suffering can also be a prison.
We can be attached to our suffering.

And the suffering we tend to be
attached to might not be the feeling,

but it's the story.

Every time that emotion, that feeling,
comes up, that story is recalled.

Our practice is to identify the story.
Recognise the story, embrace it,

but have the mindfulness of this present
moment that I am not in that situation.

I am a new me today.

This new me has the ability to embrace.

To recognise. And to tell the child
that was wounded inside:

"Yes, I have suffered,
I have experienced such pain.

But in this present moment, I have
other energies that I can cultivate."

Love for oneself. Compassion.
Courage. Solidity.

In this present moment,
by embracing this pain,

we don't just get lost in this story.

It's like when we've been slapped.
We're not being slapped again.

But this time we are aware of that pain
and we are telling ourselves

that in that moment,
I'm cultivating something new.

So you are healing the child.
You are transforming it

to live, deeply, this present moment.

And this is the work of transformation
for the samsara, the cycle.

To have an opportunity to stop.

On a personal note:
I've practised for more than 20 years.

Fear is a seed that is still
very present in me.

In particular situations, maybe if
I meet somebody who reminds me

of someone who offered
a lot of pain to me,

that seed of fear gets watered.

But now as a practitioner,
I'm not afraid.

I can become aware of my body.

Your body will have reaction
to the fear that is channeled.

The first place of mindfulness
is the body.

I come back, I recognise the fear.

I know exactly where
the reaction is coming from.

I bring my mindfulness
to those body parts.

I calm the nervous system
with mindful breathing,

with total relaxation.
And in this moment of recognition,

I tell myself: "Phap Huu, don't be afraid.
You're much more than that emotion."

You have many other wonderful emotions.

I call up the other emotions.
I have confidence in my practice.

I know how to breathe.
Nobody can take that away.

I know how to be present.

I have learned to recognise
how to be myself.

To be with my loved ones.

I know how to do it.

Mindfulness is also remembering.
Remembering how to.

How to be in the moment
where you can be solid.

So our practise of this present moment

is training to take care
and to heal the wounds.

As a mindfulness practitioner,

we have to have the ability to know
when it's enough to be with suffering.

We can be very ambitious
as a practitioner.

"The monks, the nuns,
are telling me to recognise my suffering.

OK, I see it. And now
I want to transform it all."

Don't do that. It's a dark hole.

Be generous and patient with yourself.

For us, the practise is a path
of transformation. It takes time.

We have to develop the joy and
the happiness in the present moment.

To also let the wounded child know
that you have the ability

to live happily in this present moment.

This doesn't mean
"to have something to be happy".

But in this moment, I am present.
I still have the ability to recognise

the simple joy, the wonderful
conditions that are there.

Recognising pain is a happy condition.

Knowing what to do,
what not to do.

I hope that helps. Thank you.

Woman: Can I say one more thing?

So it's important not to identify
with the emotion, or with this thing.

I understand it.

And to know that I can decide
when I look at it and when not.

Because it really was like you said.
I thought: "Let's look at it" for years.

Br. Phap Huu: Yes and no.

To not be caught and
just identify as one emotion.

As one past story.

Because we are
a continuous stream of life.

If we are just caught in one story,
we'll become a victim of the story forever

But our practise is to identify:
"Yes, in this moment, I am angry."

"That is just one emotion, though."

In this moment, I can invite
and invoke other energies.

And therefore, you are
more than that emotion.

I've done this myself: Feel very entangled
in an emotion, in a story.

And I see myself as just that.

But our mindfulness
of coming home to oneself,

we know we are much more than just that.

We are a continuation of our ancestors.

We are a continuation of this earth.

Sometimes, I take refuge
in land ancestors.

I am much more than just this suffering.

But also to own our suffering,
and be responsible to transform it.

'Cause I've met people, sorry,
I'm going on a little bit long.

I've met people who've become
very attached to their suffering.

And that suffering
becomes a way to blame life.

And using that as an excuse.

And our teacher shared with us
that we all have the right to suffer.

But it is our responsibility to
transform it. This is it. Thank you.

[sound of the bell]

Paolo: This matter about gardening
and nourishing our seeds.

Help me to understand and to cope,
I would say, with my inconsistency.

Having both grown, beautifully,
my seeds of generosity, and greed.

Of welcoming, loving,
and of anger.

Dealing with this source of having both
parts, and experience in both parts.

This is one big topic I'm working on.

But my question is about
gardening others' gardens.

Of course, unwillingly, I also grew anger
and pain and sadness and distrust

in people I love.
It's very convenient for me to say:

"Oh, I'm a new Paolo. I'm in the moment.
The past is the past, don't worry."

It's very convenient for me.

But I understand that this is
not so easy for the other,

because the pain is not mine.

What can I do about the pain
that I generated, over many years maybe,

and how can I deal with it today?

Br. Troi Bao Tang: Dear Thay,
dear community, and dear friends.

It's true that our mind is like a garden.

When we go to the garden, we may find
beautiful plants that we love.

Flowers, trees, et cetera.

But we will also find grass,
and the plants we don't really like.

But they are all there. This is
one thing we first have to accept.

That everything is organic
and they are all there.

And they all can be transformed, too.

The place where the nettles grow,
if we want to change it into flowers,

it's possible.

But we can also allow the nettles
to be there and see the goodness of it.

So for me, for example, when I practise,

in the beginning I thought I could
take away all of the bad seeds in me.

And to have no more bad seeds,
only good seeds.

I imagined, if I practised, and one day
I would not have anger any more,

it means I am emotionally handicapped.

And I don't want to be like that.

I want to feel alive.

But to do that, I need to have
enough energy of mindfulness

in the present moment,
to recognise that something is arising

that I don't appreciate.

Something that can cause
suffering for myself and for others.

So that is why navigating
our action is very important.

First, recognise what is happening in us,
and then we navigate our action.

The fourth mindfulness training
is very helpful to do that.

When we recognise that
we are in a strong emotion,

we practise not to speak
and not to act, but instead,

to recognise it and
practise with that seed.

Until you feel you have enough calm.
Then you can start to communicate.

Tonight we will learn more about that,
in the practise of loving speech.

So let's say we have done a thing
that caused suffering in the past

and it has become a burden for us.
Maybe it makes us feel guilty.

It makes us feel like we have
to take the responsibility for that.

So in the practise,
feeling regret is very healthy.

It is not good,
it is not bad to feel regret.

But that regret, if it has grown
into a burden for our mind,

then it is not very good,
then it is not healthy for us.

So one thing we can practise is
to change the direction of our guilt

into an aspiration.
Into the aspiration of practising.

So let's say, I get triggered and I cannot
stop myself from saying something.

To make people feel pain, for example.

If one time I feel
I'm not doing it successfully,

I know that I can do it better next time.

And I need to make a real effort
to do better the next time.

Until I'm able to stop my speech,
that is already good enough.

Because if we are not able
to save the people in the past,

we can still save the people
in the present moment.

And we can save the people in the future.

But this moment is very crucial
to cultivate that aspiration to

practise and embrace that.
And to not be afraid of it.

So, when we practise like that,
we also have self-compassion,

that we have a weakness inside,
that we can still embrace.

When you are able to be present
for your loved ones,

that is already good enough
to transform the past.

We are made people suffer
in the past unconsciously,

because we didn't have enough
energy of mindfulness at the time.

By generating energy of mindfulness
and aspiration to do it better,

we can do it now.

In our practise, we have a lot of methods,
we call them dharma doors,

like touching of the earth, cultivating
joy and happiness in the present moment,

that will help us to be more attentive.

In the practise, we should
not be afraid of failure.

There's no failure actually.
We just need to exercise and to practise.

Thank you for the question.

Br. Phap Huu: Can I add one thing?

If we have hurt another garden,
very simple, but very difficult:

Apologise.

Say "I'm sorry."

And why is it so difficult,
even for us practitioners?

Because we think we're right.

And I share this from my own
experience of living in this community.

We work with brothers and sisters
365 days. We smile a lot,

but we also get angry at each other.

And even in our greatest intention
of doing things for "the greater good",

we will still make each other suffer.

And my biggest growth as an individual
is learning to say sorry.

Without explaining.

Every time I've made someone suffer
in the past, I had a reason to do so.

We all do this.

Our practise of the present moment,
now I've learned, when somebody expresses

their pain and hurt to me,
of what I've done to them,

my mind will go into the garden right away
and say: "Yes but, I gave you good manure,

now you're a better person," and you find
every reason to justify your action.

And I've learned that
that doesn't do me any good.

It only feeds my own ego. It only
makes the other person hate me more

because I don't listen.

And the biggest support and practise
in that moment is to bow and to say:

"I'm so sorry I made you suffer."

Because what is real is that
that person is suffering. That is real.

That, for me, is what
I have learned to accept.

And our practise is
to help remove the knot.

And we will hear the practise
of beginning anew this afternoon.

But this is the biggest practise
of taking care of one's garden

and of each other's garden:
Beginning anew.

To recognise the pain that we have
offered, even from a good intention.

But your action has made
that person suffer.

And just to accept,
you accept the suffering.

Maybe, in my critical mind, there's
still a part of me: "I had to say that."

"I had to do that."
But that's not important.

That's already in the past.

The present is: "You suffer. It was
my words. It was my choice of action.

I will learn from this.
I will reflect on these actions."

And in this way, you offer
the other garden understanding.

Because when someone suffers,
what they want the most,

in my understanding, is to be heard,
to be seen, and to be accepted.

If we're too proud of our garden,
then we are not supporting and helping.

We're just showing off.

As a practitioner, there are moments
to come back to humility,

to be humble, so that we know
we're not always right.

And we still have compost
that we need to take care of.

That, for me, is bruising,
it's painful,

but it gives us an opportunity
to continue to grow.

That is the wisdom of nature.

That it's always growing.
It's learning from its mistakes.

And the garden continues
to bloom it its four seasons.

Thank you.

[sound of the bell]

Woman: I have more of a kid's question.

It's a little bit concerning the saying:
A cloud never dies.

Sometimes we have conversations with
children about death and reincarnation.

My son often says:
I don't like this reincarnation,

because you won't be my mother in
another life, and my dad won't be my dad.

It's difficult to have answers. Here,
we really feel that the body never dies,

kind of like composting.
And reincarnation really talks to me.

Also the heritage of our ancestors
and the lineage. It's all a bit blurry.

I thought that maybe
you could be clearer.

Br. Phap Linh: I'll see
if I can summarise the question

to make sure we understood.

There's two types of teaching
on continuation, reincarnation, rebirth.

In one type, it seems to be that there is
something like a soul, or a person,

that gets reincarnated. And
that person has a kind of continuity.

Although the relationships might change.

But it's that person that
then appears in another body.

And then according to Thay's teaching,
it's something more blurry.

We don't see ourselves exactly
as a separate entity or person

that gets reincarnated, because
we are already all of our ancestors

and all of our descendants.

And we are the whole cosmos.

So who dies, and who is reborn?

Could it be more clear?

[laughter]

I think it's quite clear.

There's a part of us that still
doesn't quite trust or believe

that we are already each other.
That we are already the earth,

the stars, the entire cosmos.
The past, the future.

"Yeah, OK, I guess, intellectually, I
kind of understand this interconnection.

But why is it that I feel things
that you don't feel?

Or I see things from a point of view
and you have a different point of view."

We are different.

We do seem to be different.

We seem to have our personalities
and characteristics. We're not identical.

And yet we are, each of us,
manifestations of the whole.

It's very strange.

It's OK for it to be strange.

Of course there's a part of us
that would like it to be clear.

Sort of explainable. Simple.

But I think that would be more boring.

So I like to kind of rest in the mystery.

I acknowledge the part of me
that wants to know.

But I also see its limitations.

That part of me that wants
to grasp and explain, in words:

"It's like this, and then it's like that",
make a nice picture,

I go: "Hello! I see you. You can rest.
Take a break. This is another part of us."

It doesn't need to resolve it.
It can dwell peacefully in the mystery.

My experience of it is that it's
a much more alive place to be.

I think it's beautiful that
at the heart of reality,

at the heart of the present moment,
at the heart of life, of us,

there is something that cannot be grasped.

That cannot be explained.

I prefer it like that.

No?

It's so much more fun.

If it was all explainable, you could just
write it down and you'd be done.

"OK, now we know.
What else should we do?"

It's kinda boring.

For me, a part of the practise is
to recognise the part of me

that wants to know in that kind of way.
It doesn't mean that we can't know.

It's just another kind of knowing.

We do know. We already know
that it's a different kind of knowing.

It's a knowing that
can't be said in words.

It can't be grasped.

But it can be experienced.

Sometimes it's a little glimmer,
a little flash of that knowing.

You feel it. You feel connected.

You feel at peace.

I think that is something
that we can settle into.

And there's words that can take us there.

To some extent or another.

Even stories, or poems.

Why do we sit here, talking,
if it can't be said?

Why did Thay give so many talks,
thousands of talks. He kept talking

about something that can't be said.

Because if he did that and we continue
to do that, it's not completely useless.