Noidan tekijähaastattelu: Arvi Teikari, Olli Harjola ja Antti Tiihonen

Welcome everyone
to the Finnish Game Museum, and to the Noita Day event.

My name is Niklas Nylund.
I'm a researcher at the game museum.

Today we have a great program
related to the Noita exhibition and to Noita in general.

The exhibition is upstairs,
in the game museum's Studio space.

It is open for a few more weeks.

December 12th is the last day.

After that the Museum Centre Vapriikki
will be closed and opens again in February.

There is a large hall renovation,
so on February 10th we will return with new exhibitions.

We have a great day ahead: there's live music,
panel discussion, guided tour, we had a craft workshop.

Let's start by having the exhibition curator,
Annakaisa Kultima, interview the game developers.

We have Arvi, Antti, and Olli with us today.

We have two hours reserved.

We'll definitely get deep into what it's like
to make a game like this and what all goes into it.

Then we'll continue in this room.

With a small break in between.

At 4 PM, Annakaisa will
give a tour of the Noita exhibition –

and will talk about how the exhibition
was created and the choices that were made along the way.

I can recommend it.

And at 5 PM we will have From Grotto
playing live music on the restaurant's side.

Without further ado, welcome to all the speakers,
and nice to see so much audience here.

Annakaisa, go ahead.

Thank you.

I'll have a seat. Two hours to go.

But it is nice to have two hours.
Often panel discussions are too short –

and this game is a never-ending topic.

No doubt about that.

My name is Annakaisa Kultima.
I'm a game researcher at Aalto University –

which may be noticeable in the exhibition.

But the game itself is also part of
the reason the exhibition covers so much.

It is nice to have Olli, Arvi and Antti
here in person to tell us more, –

but they have also been involved
in the making of the exhibition, along with the community.

To get started, the first question... –

Well, actually, I will let you introduce yourselves, –

because you are also mentioned in the exhibition.
Let's start with that.

Who wants to go first?
Olli, go ahead.

Is this on?

My name is Olli Harjola.

In Noita, my part has mostly been programming,
along with some game design and audio engineering.

I've been a full time indie developer
since around 2011.

So around 10 years now.

What else...

(Antti makes a comment without a microphone.)

Antti said that I can name-drop Swapper.

It's a game I made with Otto, Carlo and Tom.

Did you have anything else for me to say?

(Antti:) Uhh... not really.

Olli ran out of things to say, so I'll continue.

My name is Antti Tiihonen.

In Noita I was mostly a content designer.

I've designed monsters, levels, graphics, spells, –

all kinds of things the player can stumble upon.

I joined quite late in the development.

I worked on content design
for maybe year and a half.

Besides Noita, I've worked on
the Legend of Grimrock games, –

as well as Alan Wake for Remedy.

Before that, in the ancient times of
2002-2005, –

I also worked on mobile games
for a company that no longer exists.

Then there has been all sort of
craziness on the side, but I'll leave it at that.

(Arvi:) "The company that shall not be named."

I don't mind sharing the name,
but no one would have heard of it anyway.

Thank you.

My name is Arvi Teikari.

In Noita I've done
partially same work as Antti.

In the very beginning, in the summer of 2012,
we worked on a prototype with Petri Purho.

The prototype is actually playable in the museum.

It was the very first version.

Well, not the very first,
but the first that was demoed.

That was seen by other people.

Then in 2013 I joined,
and as I'm not a programmer, my responsibility –

was more things that
did not require programming.

Some things did require
scripting though, at least later on.

This fine nuance of the difference between
programming and scripting is extremely important –

and I won't say what the difference is.

I also worked on graphics.

Olli has been responsible for the visuals
produced with programming, like shaders and such, –

while Antti and I were
responsible for the pixel graphics.

A lot of game design as well,
although that of course has been a joint effort.

On my own, I have been
making games for quite a long time –

starting from 2002 or so.

In 2015 I founded my own company,
and published my first game, Environmental Station Alpha –

which aimed to teach people
how to spell the word "environmental".

And in 2019 I published Baba is You.

Basically all of my personal,
commercial or "professional", game development –

has been outside of Noita.

(Annakaisa:) Olli remembered something about himself..?

I just wanted to say
big thanks to the craft workshop.

I can recommend it.
It's upstairs through the Postal Museum.

You can make your own Mato reflector.
Antti and I made these.

(Arvi:) I'm going to make one too,
after this panel. I didn't know about the workshop.

(Annakaisa:) Unfortunately, it closes at 2 PM.

(Olli:) Oh...

(Annakaisa:) Sorry!

(Arvi:) It's fine.

But you could make
your own reflector at home.

(Arvi:) Maybe.

We did get some details about Noita already,
but I would like to hear from you in your own words, –

and I'm sure there will be three different answers,
what is Noita?

It is a word in Finnish. It is a noun.

Noita is a video game for Windows –

which main selling point is that
it has an exceptional, –

or in some parts exceptional,
physics engine.

Usually in video games, at least in 2D,
the game world consists of pixels.

In Noita each of these pixels
is made of some material.

These materials can flow, rise,
move around and react with each other.

The game world is highly dynamic.

That was the starting point
for the 10 years of development.

Petri Purho was the one who started developing this.

There have been
other such physics engines, –

but Noita may be the first one –

where a complete game has been
built around the physics, and not just a toy.

During these 10 years,
starting from Petri's original idea, –

through trial and error,
and different prototypes, –

we have built an epic adventure,
where you control a mystical, unnamed protagonist, –

who plunges into the depths of the caverns,
in order to engage in various unethical acts, –

and also to cast spells.

A rather long explanation.
Will we get a shorter one or as long?

Well, this isn't a competition,
so I won't try beating that.

I could keep rambling,
but no one would benefit from it.

Noita is an action adventure game, –

and a sandbox world
built for the player –

to be inventive with
various magical tools.

The player's problem solving,
or creating problems for themselves, –

is at the front and center in the game.

The player is given many tools,
with which to progress, or not to progress, in the game world.

It is a game with a lot of creativity,
if I can put it like that.

(Annakaisa:) Olli, do you have a microphone?

I do.

Anything to add?

What more to say...

Say it shorter.

I think Noita is the end result,
of first making a sandbox simulation, –

and then trying to make a game out of it.

Noita is the logical outcome of that.
At least it was for us.

(Annakaisa:) What is a sandgame box?

(Olli:) Sandgame box?

(Annakaisa:) Sandbox game.

(Olli:) Sandbox game. It is a game, with a simulation,
with sand in it, where you can do whatever.

(Arvi:) Sandgame box is actually good in the sense that,
as I mentioned, there are other similar implementations, –

that have been called "powder games".
Which is like sand games... in a box?

(Olli:) And this genre is also called "falling sand game".

(Annakaisa:) When you talk about sandboxes,
for example in programming or game development, –

are you referring to that definition,
or to this genre?

(Olli:) Our game is terribly unsandboxed.

(Antti:) I did kind of refer to it,
in the sense of giving freedom to the players.

Noita doesn't have a confined environment
like some games, –

where the player must do certain things
at certain points to progress.

Instead it has complex interactions
between various systems, –

which the player can learn
to take advantage of, –

and perhaps this is where the
sandboxiness of the game can be seen.

"Celebrate" is a good English word for it,
the Finnish word "juhliminen" sounds more like a party.

We celebrate the fact that the player
can freely break the game.

Anti-design in a way... or Antti-design.

(Arvi:) I can very much agree with that.

The game was built, partly unintentionally,
partly deliberately, –

to be very dynamic,
and to have all these systems, –

that give the player opportunities,
to make their own success, or their own hardship, –

in some ways resembling
a welfare state.

The game allows the player...
there is sort of this "normal game", –

with a specific starting point
and an objective for the player to pursue, –

and for example the numbers in the game,
such as the player's health points, –

and how much damage the player does, –

stay within a limited range, –

but players, who know the game thoroughly
and want to break out of the sandbox –

to explore everything the game has to offer, –

can reach a point where the numbers –

go from between zero and a thousand
to quintillions or something.

For those who seek it, the game can offer
very large numbers, and many players like that.

The game was developed in C++,
which sets a limit for the size of numbers, –

but I don't know if the game respects the limits.

I think it's possible to go around
and jump to the smallest possible number.

(Arvi:) Didn't you make it so that the boss
can have more HP than the maximum size of an integer?

(Olli:) I'm not sure how it works nowadays.

At some point it would just break,
but Petri may have fixed it since.

(Letaali:) It becomes "infinity" when it goes over.

(Olli:) Okay. You can always fill in the details,
since you're more knowledgeable in many things.

(Annakaisa:) We got a comment from the audience
from Letaali...

(Olli:) Oh right, you have to say it to the microphone.
The comment was that it will become "infinity".

(Annakaisa:) We have Letaali in the audience.
He is a streamer and plays a lot of Noita.

The game has a passionate community, that knows things
the developers themselves may not always remember.

After this panel,
Letaali will also be interviewed –

by my co-curator Riina.

It is still a bit obscure
what Noita is, –

but apparently Noita is a game,
and there are many kinds of things in it.

What games would
you say Noita compares to?

Well, for example both Kimble and Noita
are interactive games where the player moves...

Just joking. During its development
Noita has gone through many phases –

in which we have tried out different things.

As Olli said, we have had a premise
from which we wanted to make a video game –

which hopefully will be fun to play.

We have tried going
in one direction, –

which ends up not working out,
not being interesting enough, –

then we change direction,
and rinse and repeat.

Until we finally ended up
where we are now.

Over the years the games which have
influenced us the most have changed.

In the exhibition there is a timeline
of the development of Noita.

It lists some of the developers'
personal sources of inspiration.

For me at least one of them
was the roguelike genre.

It is an old game genre,
in which the core principles are –

procedurally generated world and
the inability to save a game.

So when you lose you can not
start from where you last saved.

Those are the two core principles
of the roguelike genre.

One of the genre's age-old classics
is a game called NetHack –

which has also infuenced the
development of Noita.

Spelunky is another example.
It also represents the roguelike genre, –

but is a side-scrolling platformer
like Super Mario and such.

Noita is a platformer as well.

Spelunky and Noita go hand in hand
in the sense that both have –

a procedurally generated world
and permanent death –

so no saving the game
whenever you want.

And they're both platformers.

Finland has had a lot of active
indie game development in the 90s.

I'm sure many of you who are my age
will fondly remember playing –

games such as Liero,
or Molez, or Wings, –

or Mine Bombers,
and the like.

So there have been many
classic Finnish games –

that have, at least in my mind,
been an influence to all of us.

Personally I would like to mention
a German game called Clonk.

It isn't that similar to Noita.

It is a game in which you control a group
of humanoid beings who build things.

Kind of like a village building game –

but also you jump
from here to there, –

you pick up a bomb and try to dig gold with it
but then you blow yourself up.

Which is a lot of what Noita is as welll.

(Olli:) Cortex Command.

(Arvi:) Yes, Cortex Command as well.

(Annakaisa:) I think not all of these
games you've listed as an inspiration –

could make it to the timeline.

You were asked to put them in order
before they were added.

What do you think, –

the title of the exhibition is
"The Long Journey of a Game Idea", –

it lists many of the games that
have inspired you, dozens of them, –

how does it affect the development,
to have these games around you?

What does it mean to be inspired
by other games?

Do you copy features
or do you just think "this is cool"?

(Arvi:) What can we steal
without anyone noticing.

I think it varies quite a lot,
but I'll give the floor to someone else now.

No game or cultural product or work
is created in a vacuum.

There is always the environment
and other products, that affect –

the things you make
and what the players want to play.

Sometimes inspiration is less direct.

Sometimes it can be very
cold and calculated development work.

For example this game had a great feature
which would fit our game, so let's replicate it.

That does happen.

You could call it stealing
but to us it is not unusual.

The truth is of course in a process like this
that when you take an element –

from one game, and put it in
a different environment –

as a part of the process
it will vastly change shape.

In another context, the element
can behave very differently –

causing various chain reactions
and such.

So even direct inspirations
will not produce a copy.

(Annakaisa:) Anything to add, Olli?
Do you have an inspiration in mind?

Or is there a game you would compare
to the current version of Noita?

I'm sure there are many games
that could be compared to Noita.

I think Antti said it very wisely.
How it often works in practice.

I'm not that knowledgeable
with games myself, in a way.

For example I've played NetHack
for maybe 10 hours when I was 7 –

but then I've looked up
what I could find about it on the Internet –

and found things that
could be cool for Noita.

I have no idea how they
work in the original game, –

but I might have for example
added a ghost and other interesting things.

Sort of my own "bastardized" version.

Noita and other roguelike games
with a procedurally a generated world –

are perhaps more permissive –

in the sense that you have
more freedom to add things to the game.

If you think
"this could be a fun thing" –

well, of course there are
many things you have to take into account –

if you want to make that thing work.

We've had many cases
where we've found a fun thing in another game –

that we wanted to try for our game,
and it didn't work out and was left out.

But on the other hand
we've had many cases –

where we have taken
a single smaller thing –

that we found fun in another game.

In those cases we
didn't have to think too much about –

how it would interact with all
the existing systems –

and whether it would be
perfectly balanced.

At least towards the end of
the development, we've had this freedom –

to add all sorts of things, –

because as long as the added content
stays somewhat reasonable –

and maybe a bit beyond that –

it will find its place and
add color to the game world.

The risk, that along with adding color
it would ruin everything –

and make the game bad somehow,
is quite small.

Our timeline starts from the 80s
when the developers were born.

Unfortunately we don't have Petri here today,
he is the first one on the timeline.

Antti and Niilo's dates of birth were left out.

The timeline starts from the 80s, but the idea
was born somewhere between 2005 and 2007 –

in the conversations between
Petri Purho and the other developers.

At what point did each of you
join the development?

We can start with Arvi,
then Olli and Antti.

When was it that you all
joined this project?

We already learned a bit about Arvi,
but let's recap.

When did you
start working on Noita?

I'll go into more
detail then maybe.

Already, sometime before 2012,
I had attended –

this game developer gathering,
where Petri had presented his idea.

It had a wizard and a building
made of wood with many floors.

The wizard can cast spells.
For example a "wood to fire" spell –

which causes the building
to go up in flames –

and the various fluid containers within
would spill all over and look cool.

In 2012 I then moved to Helsinki.

There were these Indie Beer events
for game developers, organized by Petri.

There I further connected with Petri
on a friendship basis.

In the spring of 2012 Petri then
asked me –

when I was a first-year
psychology student –

and was living off of student aid
in my shared flat in East Helsinki –

Petri generously offered me a job –

making graphics for
his planned project –

to make a prototype
during the summer –

which could then be sent
to an event in Asia –

where Petri wanted to
present this wizard game idea.

And so we worked on it
through the summer.

It was a terrifying experience.

I had never worked professionally
in graphic design –

and my tools were also quite
unsuitable for this purpose.

Petri had to bear with,
and I myself had to bear with

my own inability.

But we finished the prototype,
as can be seen in the exhibition –

and we went on our own ways,
satisfied, or with whatever thoughts –

until the following spring of 2013
when Petri contacted me again –

and said that we could
maybe do more with this.

So we got together,
as a Finnish saying goes.

Although during these 10 years –

I personally had a period of about six months
during which I was in such a bad shape –

that I resigned
citing my health.

In 2020 I also took a break
of about six months –

after which I returned
as more of a freelancer.

Antti joined at the beginning of 2020,
or at the very end of the previous year –

as a sort of Arvi replacement
to the team.

Towards the end we did
both work at the same time.

Let's hear from Olli next,
as we go through the timeline.

Although we did cover Antti
a bit already.

I got to know Arvi and Petri
at the Indie Beer meetups.

But I also first met both of them
abroad at game jams.

(Annakaisa:) Denmark?

(Arvi:) Sweden.

I met Petri at Nordic Game Jam
and Arvi at No More Sweden.

In 2011 we were working on
Swapper together with Otto.

Petri asked us if we would like
to use his office –

since at the time we were working
from our shared student flats.

We had just received Indie Fund funding
when petri asked us –

and we told Petri
we couldn't take up his offer –

we didn't want to waste the funds
on a separate workspace –

but Petri told the Indie Fund guy
"would you give them more funding" –

"and let them use it for the luxury
of a real working environment" –

and so we had permission
to use the office.