From Extraction to Regeneration: Healing Ourselves, Healing Society | TWOII podcast | Episode #16

大家好，歡迎回到

另一集播客『出路

是心路』（出口在內處）

[音樂]

我是喬·康菲諾，致力於

個人轉型和系統

變革的交叉點。我是兄弟

法布 (Phap Huu) 梅村社區

禪宗大師 一行禪師

傳統的禪宗和尚。

在這一集中，我們將探討

生態焦慮的整個

問題

生態崩潰和

社會混亂的風險

然而，有一條通往新生活

方式的道路

以社區聯誼為基礎

還有互相支持

和愛

在這一集中我們將探討

是否

有可能

改變我們的想法，改變我們的心，

改變我們的未來

[音樂]

出路是心路

[音樂]

你好，歡迎回來，我是喬·康菲諾，

我是法布兄弟，我們今天是

坐在

一行禪師 靜坐的小屋裡

他以前住在上村莊

在法國西南部，

呃，你可能偶爾會聽到

堅果從樹上掉下來的聲音

在屋頂上，這

給了我們一個暫停的機會

嗯，想想大自然就

在我們周圍

法布兄弟今天我們要

談論人們所

說的新範式的

必要性，就是說

我們目前的生活方式﹑

現行製度﹑我們的

思想正在導致

巨大的生態破壞

它導致了

災難性的氣候變遷﹑它正在導致

社會混亂

基本上我們正在走向

錯誤方向，每個人都

意識到，如果我們按照我們的

方式繼續下去，一切照舊

我們文明的基礎正受到

威脅，所以今天我們要討論

的是

我們如何從舊系統

轉向新系統

我們是否可以跨越這條鴻溝

到達一個新世界

and brother with us we have a very

special guest do you want to introduce

him yes today we have brother fap lin

brother spirit joining us for our

podcast

he has been a monk for 13 years in our

tradition

and he's a very close brother to me i've

actually been on a lot of projects and

trips with him and brother fab lin

is also a musician a composer

and if you go on youtube and

watch some of our chants such as the

namo vallo

namo valoki test for a chant you will

see him playing the cello

and brother let's not forget that he

actually created the music for this

podcast exactly so thank you brother

and um he

will be joining us to give his uh

insight on on this topic that we will

look into

so

brother paplin with no further ado hello

and welcome and how about you introduce

yourself and your journey towards the

practice and towards

the community here in Plum Village

yeah i'm happy to share a little bit

about my journey

to monastic life

I guess partly because it's I think it

connects with today's theme um

I want to share you know i'm not going

to share my whole story but a kind of

aspect of it which which is in

relationship with with what we're

sharing about today which

for me is the kind of uh transformation

of my

view of reality from a kind of very

rational scientific

approach I really kind of took refuge in

science as a as a teenager as as being

like

this is going to be the sole source of

truth for me this is how I determine

like what is real what is not real what

is important what is not important

and

yes I really took that on board and kind

of relied on that uh

having very early on I think probably

age

six or seven I rejected all forms of

religion and you know I kept finding

contradictions in in the bible and stuff

and anyway it's not to say that I was

right or wrong but

I had a very logical approach to things

maybe a little bit simplistic

um

and I was

yeah I thought that was how I was going

to determine

how to live uh by relying on science but

then when I was 18 just maybe I think

two days before no two days after my

18th birthday my mother passed away

suddenly from a brain aneurysm and it

was a total

shock and

I

maybe didn't it took me a while to

realize but I think what I discovered

was I had nothing to rely on I had

nothing

and in a sense our whole family we had

no religious practice or tradition there

wasn't much to bring us together

um although you know we have a very

loving family but suddenly we had no

way to handle

the immensity of what had happened the

loss we had no tradition we had no

ritual we had no

nothing to bind us and especially for me

I was left feeling very numb because I

kind of stuck to this belief which is

well you know

the person

is equivalent to basically the activity

of their brain and when the activity of

the brain ceases then that's that

there's no person anymore so what are we

you know what's the big deal and it was

very cold like my attitude

um

and I think the reality of that was that

I was feeling a lot but I couldn't

handle it so I i covered it up with this

kind of hyper rational intellectual

approach

but that left it left me very dry and

empty

and in fact for about a year and a half

after that I

I was kind of numb and cold I didn't

feel

anything and I think I was also quite

aggressive and and

maybe not so nice to be around you know

for people who who maybe had other views

or other

feelings about

you know

yeah some something deeper or important

in like a kind of sense of meaning or

love or

something more cosmic something bigger

I would destroy that you know if I ever

encountered those I would take it apart

with logic and reason and

it was pretty violent and not not very

yeah

not very kind and also

not very wise actually but it

that it was I guess my own self-defense

mechanisms kicking in um although I

didn't think of it as that at the time

and so I was actually in a kind of

depression without knowing um

and

uh and I couldn't feel anything

but some part of me and I feel very

grateful

that that is the case some part of me

was still searching for something else

for another way

to live another

way to deal with with these huge

questions of life and death and you know

love and what is meaning and purpose and

all these things

what do we do with this one precious

life you know I was still searching and

I consider myself just very very

fortunate to have been surrounded by

good friends

who helped me gradually

despite all my resistance

to start investigating other ways so I

started looking into spirituality

my girlfriend at the time bought me

siddhartha by herman hesse I read that I

remember being very touched by watching

the film

kundun and and and gandhi and so

something was being awakened in me and

then another one of my friends found out

about Plum Village

and thai and dignity and and he said

well this guy you know he's supposed to

be enlightened and as soon as I heard

that I sort of thought well okay

if i'm going to make a decision about

you know

whether this is real whether there is

such a thing as spirituality or whether

there's only kind of

just atoms and molecules bouncing off

each other according to physical laws

eternally until the end of time without

any meaning or purpose

it's kind of it was one or the other for

me either there's a magical spiritual

world or there's just

just particles and physical laws and

chants and

meat total meaninglessness

which by the way is the

very widely

uh

espoused view right now and we have to

acknowledge the reality of this view

whether it's consciously held or

unconsciously held

um

many many many people when you get down

to it that's what they think is going on

that there's

kind of just no meaning or purpose to

anything other than what we maybe invent

or create as human beings but ultimately

it's just all random and chance and

total meaninglessness that's a very like

that's a real story

that we tell ourselves nowadays and I

was telling myself that story

and I guess why I think that's important

is that it has

an effect uh

that's a very powerful story and it

changes how we show up

what kind of things we we do how we how

we speak how we think how what we

believe how we are with each other what

we think is important

so anyway I was very lucky that I had

people around me who

who helped me to to examine other

possibilities and

you know once I found out about tai and

they said oh this guy's enlightened so I

thought okay well if anybody knows it's

probably this guy so if i'm going to try

to determine which one it is either it's

random and meaningless or

magical and full of meaning and depth

and significance

I should go and visit

and see what he has to say at least you

know just out of intellectual curiosity

and honesty I have to try so

four of us we're all studying together

at cambridge we all made our way that

summer to Plum Village

and

I i don't know to what kind of like uh

you know ancestors or past conditions I

I can pay gratitude and respect but I i

am just so

lucky and fortunate that that happened

that that I

for whatever reason encountered this

tradition this stream of wisdom that has

been flowing

you know for thousands of years and I

could just run into that

find myself here

and be exposed to that and I resisted I

fought

you know I was sitting there in the

dhamma hall trying to refute every

single line you know every single thing

that I said I tried to fight with it

um tried to find some flaw some

some kind of something I could resist

but it was

I mean I

the image I have is it was like fighting

the ocean

you know the waves coming and you try to

stop it you know but it just boom it

just goes past you know and you just try

to stop the next one boom

it was like that I couldn't find

anything to fight with actually so at

some point I had to stop

fighting

but I still

had my doubts so I remember

uh yeah I had a very kind of powerful

transformation in that retreat and I was

able I think for the first time in 18

months to get in touch with my grief

about my my mother's death and to start

to reconnect with her and to experience

her as still being in my life you know

and still being

in me and not being totally lost uh

so that was amazing and we could go more

into that but um

I think uh

yeah in terms of my skepticism and this

sort of seed of separation and

individualism and and the sort of

scientific rationalism

I still had this question in my heart

which was

are these guys for real you know these

brothers and sisters it all looks very

nice you know in the summer they're all

very peaceful and they walk slowly and

they smile and it all looks great but I

bet as soon as I turn my back as soon as

the summer retreat is over

I bet all of this stops you know I don't

think they can live like this all the

time there's no way I didn't believe it

um because I felt challenged by it

and

so some part of me wanted to say is fake

and I think that's because

maybe I felt fake you know and I i was

struggling to find a kind of

authenticity

so I didn't want to believe that other

people could be

deep and authentic and real and and

sustain that

um so actually I checked I tried to

check I left after the end of the summer

retreat I stayed the whole summer

retreat and then at the

maybe like a week later I came back

uh randomly and we're not supposed to

the Plum Village is supposed to be

closed but I wanted to see so uh

I came back and um because I was

thinking i'm going to catch these guys

out you know it's not going to be the

same but

it was

yeah it was the same if anything it was

even more peaceful

it was so beautiful and like the spirit

of harmony of the brothers and sisters

and just seeing

also seeing how they were kind of at

play because they were yeah they were in

their lazy period they were

relaxed and at ease and just hanging out

together and playing volleyball and

but it was so beautiful and so genuine

and so deep and

yeah so then my life really

changed and I i began to rely on plum

village

I came back every six months at least

twice a year for a retreat maybe a week

or two and then gradually that

started getting longer and longer until

you know my my partner and I

started coming for retreats together

and then those retreats got longer and

longer and eventually we were just

you know

we kind of couldn't resist anymore we

realized

we have to give our whole lives to this

and so we both ordained we both became

yeah monastics

so so brother just I want to pick up on

one element of what you said because I

because I think

what you described is actually a good

metaphor for what we're discussing today

which is you talked about feeling

numb and you know when I look out in the

world you know I also have that sense of

you know there's that a great uh pink

floyd song you know comfortably numb

that people

that that

at some deep level people are

recognizing that that the world is

changing and that we need to we need to

change the way we live in and our view

of the world but actually most people

are very fearful of that and are hiding

behind you know what capitalism allows

us to do which is to hide behind all

sorts of uh pleasures and and

distractions whether it be

sort of films or gambling or sex or or

whatever

and i'm just wondering

what your senses of

since you experience yourself of that

numbness because because you know we'll

get on to talk about how do we actually

create change but

talk to us a little bit about

what that numbness and and whether you

see that in society in general um

yeah I think this is a very important

thing to to reflect upon um

which is a kind of uh

a sense of being overwhelmed

by the the scale of the challenge that

we face collectively and individually

and a sense of powerlessness and then

the terror that comes from that

which

because it's so hard to face um and

because maybe

we feel alone with that then the the

easiest option and the readily available

option thanks to yeah all the various

ways that we have at our disposal is is

to to avoid to to procrastinate in a

sense I think we're in a stage

of collective procrastination

with climate change and of course we can

blame and we can point the finger and

say either it's the corporations or no

it's the governments or or and then the

corporations turn around and say no it's

the individuals the individuals need to

do more and it's up to everyone and

everyone's pointing their finger at

everybody else but

but really it's a kind of collective

procrastination and I think

it's very directly linked to our

emotional

state

if we

are not able if we don't find ways

to face that fear

to face that despair and feeling of

overwhelmed and not just I don't mean

just face it intellectually but I mean

actually feel it

feel it in our bodies in our hearts

and

uh without being reckless right we don't

want to like traumatize ourselves and

just go into shock but

to know to have the skill and to learn

how to feel

without being overwhelmed how to feel in

a way that is able to embrace and to

transform those feelings

and then they actually become the fuel

for our

action

so that's I think

like one of the biggest

things that i've experienced uh in in

our in this tradition and what I feel

i've received from tai

is this insight of the connection

between the suffering and

and the transformation or the you know

the the liberation

um

and for me it's very direct it's like if

as long as we

keep finding ways to to numb ourselves

and of course that's made easier and

easier I always think of like auto next

you know auto next episode auto play

on youtube or netflix or whatever it's

it's it's

it's always going to be

easier to follow the path of least

resistance and just let the next episode

play in until you find yourself you know

falling asleep at the screen

having binge watched I don't know how

many episodes of whatever it is

rather than to stop

to say no to say stop because to say

stop means that those feelings

are then present

and that's hard so what I think is

interesting is to to start to learn

that

we actually have resources we have ways

to meet those feelings we have ways to

transform those feelings and to not be

alone with them and that's I think the

power also of our community to find that

we can

be in that process of holding of

embracing the pain and the fear and we

can do it together

yeah so so brother factory I want to ask

you that that's a lovely segue because

what as you were talking what was came

up in my mind was

once when I interviewed tai

I i asked him I said I said tai you know

why is it that

when we have so much science because

there is a

good purpose to science as well when we

have so much knowledge and understanding

of the direction of travel and the fact

that we're heading towards

potentially cataclysmic collapse why is

it that people aren't

responding

and he

said very simply said people don't know

how to deal with their individual

suffering

so how do you expect them to care for

humanity or for the earth itself

and and and I remember papua and so this

is the question because I wanted to ask

ty a question and I forgot to ask him so

i'm going to ask you

which is I was I was

I heard him say that and I sort of

completely got it and then I thought

coming back to your point problem that

you know to someone who's maybe a single

parent who's

living in a you know trying to bring up

two kids with very little money

who's you know and and of course that

that

there are lots of people like that but

even even people who have privileges who

are in proper families but people live

very very busy lives there's a hundred

and one things to deal with

how do you expect people in

to sort of shift from this very very

busy life to suddenly as you say feplin

stopping I mean

it almost feels difficult to do how do

people stop peppu

first of all

come back to your in-breath and out

breath

that's very basic but that's the

fundamental practice in our tradition

if we want to stop we also have to start

to

look at what is our priority

of happiness

we all can have 1000 things to do but

like what brother fablin mentioned but

if we look back at our life which is

it's not permanent we

we're of the nature of impermanence

and we start to really

come home and ask ourselves these

questions it's like

how is my heart today

where are my impacts

am I able to

share something to someone that I truly

love

to let them know

that I am here for them

like these are very simple questions

but in meditation what we do

part of our practice is to reflect that

not on other people but on ourselves

so if we start to see that oh

there's there are fundamental

questions that I still haven't looked at

then it allows us to stop because that

becomes important for us

and

the world that we live in today is so

fast-paced it is so um

it's like a huge vacuum that pushes us

in one direction I remember walking in

tokyo

and

our tradition is like wherever we go we

have one style of walking that's our

deepest aspiration and that is walking

meditation

and we were walking down the streets we

were a group of four monastics

and as we were walking suddenly

we matched the pace

of the people

without even knowing that that is

happening

and

thankful to one of my sisters she

stopped all of us

and she said brothers and sisters

we have become

this fast-paced

energy without even knowing we should

come back

and take refuge in our steps again

and for me that that that experience

really stayed with me because like you

said

we all have so many things to do we have

um

jobs we have missions we have projects

to accomplish

but we can lose ourselves in that

and what the practice allows us to

to do

is to not lose ourselves and that starts

by stopping and and this is so this is

so so important because

even as a monk we can fall into the

realm of

of striving for something and then we're

not free so

a part of our deepest aspiration as

monastics and I i think not just

monastic but for also lay people I think

for you too joe

is to become more freer each day and

that is enlightenment to be free from

all attachment like we we're not

striving

to

to a happiness

but we enjoy the path because the path

is happiness

and we have this notion that we have to

accomplish to receive happiness to

arrive at success but then we bypass all

of these beautiful moments in the

present moment and I think this is when

we start to

coming back to the word being numb

because we're being numb by these

concept these ideas

and and I just want to give my two cent

on this too because um

even living in the community

which I have is one of my greatest honor

and being surrounded by such love and

such um support

and but I i also have to be responsible

for my individual connection my

individual practice my individual

aspiration because I remember there was

also a moment

when I was really struggling on my path

and I had a lot of questions like do I

like is this for me like do I want to

finish my whole life as a monk

and and I was procrastinating on and on

each day

and the beauty of living the community

is we call this the sangha I meaning

everyone sees each other

and we start to identify ah

my brother or my sister is suffering

and we try to

to to find a skillful way to be there

for them to support them

but because I was so numb by my own

suffering

I didn't allow

their love to come in

and I had a moment when I had a

breakthrough I i started to recognize

that

I was I am the one pushing myself away

from my brothers and sisters and they're

not

they're all they're doing is saying

brother

i'm here for you would you like to have

a cup of tea to share

and sometimes even our idea of

of um

of support

we we get caught in it because we think

oh nobody understands me

my brothers my sister they're just

trying to tell me to be mindful quote

unquote be happy but

but that is my deepest aspiration but

because of this feeling of aloneness and

this feeling of like

and and that for me is also being numb

like being cutting yourself off from

everyone and that moment when I

recognize that

and I stop

every time this this thought came up

of of me trying to push myself away from

everyone

I came back to my breath

I came connected to my heart and I said

I need to allow

these brothers and sisters these friends

into my life let them support me and so

sometimes I feel like we we do have

particular conditions but if we know how

to stop and really identify them and

change our view

things can change we have a new

opportunity so

that's really interesting and um so I

wonder brother fabrian I want to ask you

a conundrum because because brother

father you talked about

striving and about the importance of

stopping

and yet you know we have now ended what

people are calling the decisive decade

that we have

ten years or actually nine years now

because it decisive decades started

a year ago to turn

this ship around in other words if if we

do not reduce our emissions if we do not

change the way we live our lives if we

do not sort of transform our economic

system etc etc then

if we don't do that within 10 years then

game over then then we hit

uncontrollable change and irreversible

change

so

that is quite tough because if you just

take that on board we've got 10 years

and I see so many people who work in the

environmental movement sustainability et

cetera et

who are burning out because all they

think is oh my god it's so urgent if we

don't act quickly now then all is lost

and you have people burning out but

actually what they're doing

is they're

they're living exactly like the old

system because you think what created

the system win it was striving it was

competitive it was

fast-paced and and then you had the

people trying to save

quote-unquote this this planet the

civilization

but they're acting in the same way but

but

what would you say to them fatlin

we've got a decade to turn it round

everything's slow everyone's

procrastinating everyone these

individuals feel it's my job to save the

world you know and and yet they're

burning out what what's your advice to

them I would say dare to feel

we have to have the courage to feel what

we're feeling

and

when we do that then to take the time to

take care of whatever it is which is

going to be to some extent panic

right I mean that's the feeling the

feeling is overwhelm is terror is panic

is despair

um and

we need to have some courage

to

allow that feeling to be there and i'm

really talking about how that feels in

your body

like right now

as you're listening to this wherever you

are whether you got it on headphones or

you're in your kitchen or whatever it is

that you're doing going for a walk

um or sitting down somewhere

just take a moment to actually feel how

you're feeling like in your

body

is it tight is it open

you know are you do you feel your

connection with the earth

do you feel

some sense of pressure of anxiety of

nervousness do you feel like there's

something that has to be done right away

or do you feel actually free

to do

the things that you have to do in the

day in a in a peaceful way

and and whatever feeling is there

we cultivate a spirit of non-judgment so

even if the feeling is of a kind of

discomfort

of being pressured

or rushing or stress

we we want to actually

instead of feeling like oh that's a bad

feeling to have I shouldn't have that

feeling I need to get rid of that

feeling so that I can be peaceful and

free

that only creates more stress so the

first thing to do is to accept

whatever feeling is there and to allow

it to be there

to say

hello

hello my feeling I know you're there and

I am here for you

and it's okay to be there and you can be

there as long as you want

and suddenly

you know the feeling in your body you

may find if you can actually communicate

like that with yourself

you may find already that there's a

transformation there's already there's a

kind of relief of just like oh okay I

can

just be like this I can feel like this

it's okay

I don't need to be something other than

what I am I don't need to feel something

other than what I feel

and that's already very

powerful that's actually

a kind of self

therapy you know it's self soothing that

we can do

and it's not

you're not wasting time you know it's

not like less important it's actually

what gives you

the freedom

to be able to do what you have to do

because mostly

you know we have the information we know

we know the science we know what we have

to do we know what we have to not do

like that's actually pretty clear

and there's a very broad consensus on

that

but why are we paralyzed and for me

obviously there can be different

responses to this question but for me a

big part of it is this

inability or this

fear of

being with

these

genuinely overpowering overwhelming

terrifying feelings and it's not there's

no judgment in that because this is what

I face

too like it's genuinely hard

so

um

you know I think you know when we look

at the broader situation we can identify

three

kind of broad categories of action that

need to happen so there's obviously

stopping greenhouse gas emissions or

reducing and stopping uh reversing so

that's called mitigation right

um

and then there's adaptation which is

adapting our infrastructure to deal with

a disrupted climate with increasing

temperatures and so on but the third

part which is increasingly I think being

recognized as important and that's what

I think we're really talking about today

is helping people to deal with the

chronic

uh stresses

and the and the yeah the toxic stress

and the and the trauma

of the knowledge that we may be facing

the end of our civilization and we

that that that is intimately connected

to the to mitigation and adaptation we

won't do the medication mitigation and

adaptation unless we take care of number

three and it's not to say this is more

important than that or this has to take

priority obviously we have to do

everything that's part of the problem

right we have to there's no question

that we have to stop emissions and we

have to you know prepare and do the

adaptation that we need to do

but I think we shouldn't underestimate

and we shouldn't forget

the third part and that's where I think

you know if

just if you're listening to this podcast

today

you can

kind of

give yourself a moment to thank yourself

and say oh

there's a connection between this thing

that i'm doing now which is actually

taking care of myself

learning how to check in with my

feelings learning how to calm those

feelings a little bit if they are

difficult you know overwhelming feelings

i'm learning how to handle

my fear i'm learning how to face it

I am actually investing

in this third

part which is a very

real part of our collective strategy as

humanity to transform the situation so

for me it's really really important to

paint that picture for people because

sometimes you know

I guess it's a question it's like do I

have time to do my sitting meditation

today do I have time to go for walking

meditation no I have to answer my emails

no I have to

write this policy brief no I have to you

know

uh edit this essay for that collection

that's going to be published you know

whatever it is that we're facing

whatever it is that we have to do

it's very easy for other things to seem

like a higher

priority but I think when we can

remember that

every single drop that we can put in the

bucket of mindfulness

is going to increase

our zone of freedom is going to increase

our capacity to notice

when a difficult feeling is arising in

our body and mind

when when anxiety is coming up we're

gonna see it coming so you have more

time you know it's not like

it's there and it's pushing you and

you're acting without noticing what's

pushing you you you get to see it

because you've you've put energy in a

little bit maybe five minutes ten

minutes every day

you paid attention to your steps on the

way to work you know you made that

commitment and you've invested

and when you do that what happens is

that in the difficult moments you have

that little bit of extra

time

extra freedom and you notice that energy

coming up you see it coming and you can

go ah

I see you that's mindfulness

that's mindfulness is saying hello

saying

I see you coming I know you you're my

old friend

and I don't have to be

pushed anymore i've been pushed my whole

life all my ancestors have been pushed

my whole society has been pushed and now

I have the freedom I have the power to

say stop

and that's amazing you know stopping is

not a small thing

it's like there's a freight train

of habit coming down at you through the

generations of no no just just do the

next thing because that's more important

it's very strong so you have to have an

equivalent or greater strength to be

able to say no to be able to say stop it

it's a courageous

act it's an act of resistance exactly

and and brother

you know

it's very difficult in times of change

because there are all these activists

out there who have woken up

who have who are

putting um

sometimes in in the global southern

countries they're putting their lives at

risk to save forests they're they're um

activists all over the world who are

rising up

who are who have woken up and who are

taking action

and what's your advice to people who are

sort of

who you know who look out in the world

and see

most people asleep

and

are trying to have their voice heard it

reminds me of an episode of them of the

film the matrix where there's someone

who's sort of in joined the revolution

and everyone in the revolution against

this the matrix is is leading this very

harsh life

and one of them actually um betrays them

and he meets the the agent the agent

yeah and and they're sitting at a dinner

table

and

he's eating a steak and drinking a glass

of red wine

and he looks at it and he says I know

this steak and this red wine are not

real

but I would rather be him believe

they're real

than to live this difficult life so

besides the stopping for all those

people who are taking action

and suffering because they're trying to

help people wake up

[音樂]

what can they do

how can they how can they

almost be at peace

um

rather than

sort of

it feels like it can feel like a battle

but I think you know we all sometimes

have the energy of judgment coming up of

thinking others are not doing enough and

and and feeling like we're doing a lot

and wanting others to come on board and

maybe there's frustration sometimes why

don't people just

you know

help out and join the struggle

and I think we have to be

alert to that as well and we have to be

able to say hello to that too you know

because that's also

a kind of friction on our own

um ability to

to continue

it's actually one of the things that may

contribute to a burnout if we start

feeling that kind of negativity all the

time that kind of blaming

um it's not to say that it's

it's wrong in a sense I mean it's like

it may actually be true in the sense

that other people are not doing enough

but the point is that we have to keep

our sovereignty

we have to keep our peace

our freedom and to know when we're being

uh kind of

colonized by that energy of of judgment

and hatred and we have to know how to

handle that too

and then

what's amazing is that when we are able

to handle that and when we're able to

keep doing what we're doing

we're the spirit of invitation

it's a kind of like when you do what you

do with love

first of all you don't burn out

you know when everything is motivated by

love you don't burn out and it's

inviting

because you look like you're having a

good time

you know you you look happy you look

relaxed even though the the work may be

very hard

you know and you may not sleep as much

as you'd like and you know it's it's not

necessarily going to be all

just a bed of roses it's going to be

difficult

but but when you know that everything is

motivated by love and when you know how

to take care of yeah the anger and the

judgment and the frustration when it

comes up as it will very naturally

you know how to recognize it you see it

and you go

ah hello my old friend

i'm here for you too you know

I can and you can listen to that part of

yourself

see that it's good it's trying to it's

also contributing it's trying to

in its way protect you or you know it

has a role to play but but but but in a

sense we make a deeper choice we say i'm

not going to cultivate that i'm not

going to come from that spirit because

like you were saying before that's kind

of part of the old paradigm and i'm not

that's what i'm committed to i'm

committed to a new paradigm which is a

profound transformation

really just a different way to approach

everything

and if you can

realize that to whatever extent you can

realize that it's just more inviting for

others and in fact you achieved the

result that the anger wanted to achieve

in a more powerful way

I want to talk a bit about sort of how

we

how people change their minds so and the

reason the reason I was that I i've been

attending the sort of davos world

economic forum for

the last 10 years most of those years

and and the shift amongst all these

leaders is that they say actually it's

not about just doing things differently

but we need to change our minds we need

to have a shift in in our mindset

but they say that

but they very rarely achieve that

because

they say yes we need to change our minds

but they don't really know how to change

their minds because they're so fixed

into a straight jacket of a system

especially you know whether business

leaders political leaders but people in

all sorts of areas they tend to be stuck

in their

tramway

because we need this profound change in

our

views

well can you talk because one of the one

of the

sort of um

key sort of aspects of business to have

right for you yeah

hmm

first first of all we have to start

learning to come back to oneself this

that's the most basic thing because if

we don't know how to come back to

ourself and then we don't even know what

our views are

and we might be

living by with someone else's view

I think that's

I think for a lot of us who became

monastic

that was a big shift when we came to the

community a retreat and we started to

see wow

there's another way of living

there's another way of

of talking there's another way of

interacting

people are smiling here like you know

like outside like if somebody's like

smiling to you you'd be like dude don't

don't look at me like that

right like but then when you come to an

environment

where this is not just a teaching this

is a reality

that change starts by

by the human body

by the environment and then it will

change in the view

so I feel this is really important so

this is why

I am here in Plum Village is because

it's not just the teaching it's the

living

and that is so important and I think

this is where our teachers and master

technique had a very big impact

which was

he saw that the way of life is to be

more compassionate be more loving

meaning to have more understanding

and through this energy of compassion

and understanding

he was able to move forward

to teaching the way and he met so many

obstacles on the path too and i'm sure

he had

moments of anger moments of frustration

but

he trusts in the ability of

awakened nature in everyone

and nothing is lost when you are

moving forward with that energy

so I i I see that um to change the view

is to be mindful of your mind what comes

up in your daily life

so there's

meditation it's there's a whole spectrum

to it and there's many ways of

practicing

and for us you know fundamentally we

always connect to our breathing because

our breathing is a very clear bridge

that can help bring our mind home to the

body

but there are moments in your meditation

you can practice like you're sitting at

the bank of the river your mind is like

a river it's going to flow into many

directions and sometimes you have to

start looking at your own mind what is

it that comes up in your mind you start

to see pattern if you are someone who is

caught up in power

you're gonna see that

your mind is going to start

thinking and try to manipulate situation

how can I gain more power

you have to identify that and this is

where the practice of meditation becomes

also challenging because it starts you

start to see yourself more clearly

but like typhoon have shared it's like

be brave to feel your feeling and hear

this also be brave to see what your mind

is producing

but then once you see what your mind is

producing

you see the roots of it and this is the

four noble truth of buddhism

to only change and to have

transformation is you have to come to

the root of it

so then you start to look at how you

live your life

what is it that i'm doing that nourishes

this view

and

if you see the root of it then you see

a way out of it

but seeing is not enough

which is the fourth noble truth which is

harder is now you have to walk the path

you have to change your way of living

and this

is for me this is where real

transformation happens

and

we we we talk about global scale but

in the dhamma we always say peace in

oneself peace in the world

and it means that if we want to achieve

transformation outside

we need to start with ourself

and this is so important because our

action can become the teacher our action

can become

the leading

and

we we live in a place in a world that

information is very accessible now and

this is our blessing thanks to the

internet thanks to social media etc and

so many different platforms

but we can also be addicted to just

views it's like because I can I can talk

about it with you too

but then like teflin said but then after

this podcast let's say if we if we go

out and we

are doing things

buying things that are not needed and we

start to accumulate and harm the earth

then there's no change then we'll just

be an empty vessel

and for me what is more important is

to do it to have the feeling of

of transformation in the here and the

now and I think this is also so powerful

in thai's teaching

is that when we learn to come back to

the present moment we see that the past

is here and the future is here so if you

don't start changing in this very moment

we're always going to be waiting

and so I think this is very important to

change the view it's learning to come

home see what manifests in our daily

life interview what are the roots of it

do we want to keep nourishing this

that's the question we have to ask

and you know what sometimes we're going

to find ourselves saying yes

because that feeds our ego that feeds

our pride that feeds our comfort

and

the real change is when we see that

this pleasure

is not real happiness that's also when

change can happen so brother it's very

interesting you say that because um as

as you were talking what it may help me

to crystallize in my mind was

you know

in all the years i've been in davos for

instance

i've never seen someone be truly

vulnerable

i've never seen any world leader any

business leader

talk about problems they were having

at home with their family it's like

everyone was talking about changing

their mind but everyone was stuck in

their role

and and

everyone was fearful of coming out of

their role

and until we come out of our role and

until we

show our vulnerability and open our

heart and pull off the armor

then actually we remain part of the

problem

and and also you picked up around

competition brother fat blind i'd like

to ask you about individualism and

competition

um because obviously

I think that's at the root of the

problem we've got to and um again I i

remember when um and I think you might

you were probably both there when when

tignertan came to the houses of

parliament

and he gave a a speech

to members of the uh mps and members of

the house of lords

and I always remember one member of the

house of lords sort of said well

ty um you know we're the the the uk

political system is is by nature

conflictual we sit opposite each other

we argue against each other we're always

trying to point out what's wrong with

each other you know what what do you

think of that

and I remember ty looked at him and he

just said after

what seemed like an age but was probably

only a few seconds he said

does it make you happy

and I always remember that was a really

profound moment because

it was so outside of the

normal conversation

and and it feels like increasingly we

need to

be outside of the normal conversation

not about how do we

make people feel less of an in you know

how do we

it can't be by degree it has to be like

to shock people almost out of their

current thinking but brother fabling can

you talk a bit about you know the the

cult of individualism

I mean it's rather it's rather recent in

human history

and also

how we move beyond that and then maybe

after that we can talk about plum

village as a community and it may be an

example of

of a different way of living but can you

shed some light on yeah thank you for

that question I i think

it really is one of the most important

things for us to

examine and to see

how to how do we bring transformation at

this level at the personal and the

collective

level because

in a sense we know right intellectually

we know that um

that we live in a profoundly

interdependent world that everything

depends on everything else and and that

uh

the only way to

change the system or the the situation

is is to

kind of adopt that new vision that new

understanding and this change is

happening

in biology it's happening

in the in economics it's happening in

social theory and political theory

everybody's starting to see more aspects

of this interdependence and in a way we

get it especially if we're practitioners

we kind of like yeah yeah sure into

being interdependence

right i'm down with all of that

but when we look at our actual behavior

our day-to-day

actions

we may still be

uh

to some extent caught in the habits of

the old

paradigm so when you talk about I liked

your question to typhapu before as well

about like how do we change our view

because ultimately

that's what it is it's it's a it's a

it's a whole belief system it's a whole

view of

what is the nature of reality are we

individuals

are we selfish

are we does does outrage does altruism

really exist can we be good people are

there such things as bodhisattvas and

saints or is that just all

kind of

trickery and fakery you know like

is it really possible to

to to transform this

kind of self-interest that we all have

of course to take care of our own needs

and do I have enough food security

emotional uh

you know support comfort do I take care

of my loved ones first and my family and

kind of like

you know hope for the best for everyone

else but you know when it comes down to

it it's number one you know number one

is first

like we we we know that there's

some like if we're gonna make this big

transformation we're gonna have to deal

with these kinds of

beliefs and intellectually we get it

intellectually we are most probably many

of us already on board but when we look

at our habits maybe we don't see the

transformation yet so that's when it

gets it's kind of when the rubber hits

the road of the practice it's like

how do we make that shift

and um I you know taifapu has given a

really beautiful answer uh along those

lines already and I think a part of

that when we start to see

okay let me identify so first event I

i've identified that

okay I am still acting to some extent

from the paradigm of individualism I am

still mainly concerned with number one

you know maybe my immediate circle of

loved ones

um

but ultimately when it comes down to it

i'm kind of like okay

am I going to have enough

am I going to have enough

no and can I have more

of whatever it is and so

we have to ask ourselves okay well what

are the roots what are the roots of that

way of understanding reality and then if

I can identify the roots of it

I can identify what is how am I feeding

that view what is the source of

nourishment

and

that's where you can make a change if

you can stop

the source of nourishment that's coming

into your life that's feeding that view

and that belief

then you can start to move into the new

way of seeing the new way of seeing

yourself the new way of conceiving of

what is a human being

as an independent interdependent into

being reality

interconnected

uh

you know

like a a community being not a you know

like a

not a not just a separate cut off

reality

so so that's my questions like what are

the roots what what are the things that

are feeding that

so i'm really interested in stories

I think we

are still in the grip of some very very

powerful

collective stories kind of cultural

narratives

that are perpetuated even though many of

them we don't believe in anymore but

the transformation hasn't reached all

the way into for example

film media novels so most of the novels

you'll read most of the superhero films

you'll watch or any other kind of film

that they'll still be in that world of

individualism or even good against evil

of kind of competition at some level

so we haven't yet started telling these

new stories so in order to do that we

have to identify well okay so what are

the elements of these old stories that

was that we keep retelling so i'm i'm

really interested in this question so

one for me is the kind of uh nature red

in tooth and claw you know that's

uh

in a way it relates to the selfish gene

theory and this kind of idea that

science tells us you know through

evolutionary theory that basically

everything at the base depends on

competition and ultimately

uh that's what we're all about like if

you really look deep into your own heart

what you'll find is that you're just a

machine a biological machine that exists

to reproduce and you'll do anything

ultimately to make to guarantee

your own continuation into the future

and to secure that and to protect that

well that's a question is that actually

true like what's the actual evidence for

that and and that's where it gets really

interesting because I remember reading

richard dawkins age 15

and being terrified by it because I

thought well okay this is what science

is telling us science is telling us that

any altruism that I feel is is just

a kind of trick

it's a trick to get status in the group

uh to be more attractive to a potential

mate and ultimately still just about

selfishness and trying to reproduce

and I thought wow wow if that's true

that's a very bleak picture of reality

and I what I want to emphasize is like

how prevalent that story is

consciously or unconsciously we're still

living with that and it and it manifests

in all kinds of ways

that has

very profoundly shaped the roots of our

current economic thinking you know that

we we're all considered in current

economic thinking to be rational actors

which basically means everybody's out

for themselves looking after their own

interests and so we we actually base all

of our economic theory on that

assumption

but it's wrong

and that's the amazing thing that

science the modern science is now

telling us

that um

that that's even from the point of view

evolutionary thinking that's not true

so now we talk about multi-level

selection theory it's a little bit

technical but it basically means that we

don't only evolve as individuals in

competition with other individuals we

can also evolve as groups as communities

and humanity humans are profoundly you

know social communitarian species

and so we have evolved

many many ways in fact mainly

probably more important than the

competitive side of us is the

cooperative side of us but we're not

telling that story yet and we need to

tell that new

story we need to tell the story of

ourselves

as

uh

as communities

as communities of love of cooperation of

brotherhood and sisterhood and this

isn't this isn't just fantasy this is

not just made up because it sounds nice

it's actually what we are that's

maybe more important than the

competitive part of us but then that

story we need to tell

let that story penetrate through into

our fiction into film into novels into

music music into songs you know

everywhere

we need to be retelling this new

narrative and and luckily um I think

that is starting to happen but we can

all contribute to that we can all

sort of research it study it look into

it a little bit more and start to notice

like when are we

being

manipulated by these old stories like a

really

uh strong one I think is this idea of

the tragedy of the commons

it's like a cultural meme or even a

scientific meme

it's an article that was published in I

think the 60s 1966 I think

and with that title the tragedy of the

commons and it's one of the most cited

scientific papers

ever

and it's still cited now

even though

what we now realize is that it was based

on no evidence

it's incredible like when you actually

look into it so what is it about it says

essentially that land held in common

uh will be destroyed

any resources held in common

um without private ownership without

being divided up into you know private

property

uh will be wasted will be destroyed so

that the sort of

story goes that in the past in the

middle ages all british towns had a

common

like a green in the middle where anybody

could go and graze their cattle or their

sheep or whatever and it was open to

everyone nobody owned it it was owned

collectively

and in the paper um

it's sort of like he paints this picture

where he says well rationally every

cattle herder would just think well I

can increase my flock

you know i'll just get another

cow

and then every because everybody will do

that suddenly you know there won't be

enough and and will destroy the commons

but he just made it up

that isn't actually what happens that's

the amazing thing so we really urgently

need to

change these stories that we're telling

check the evidence and luckily there are

people who are doing this so eleanor

orstrom

won the nobel prize for economics in

2009 because the the research she did

into this question where she actually

said well no hang on let's let's have a

real look at the evidence let's look at

all the

uh cultures in the world where they are

able to have

property you know held in common with no

private ownership

and let's check like can they manage it

effectively and the answer is yes first

of all in many cases and then she said

well how are they doing that like what

are the principles that they have in

place that allow them

to

effectively manage the commons

uh without destroying their environment

and without the need for breaking it up

into pieces and

so and this is important because it

still

governs

um

you know current policy like right now

there are areas of canada that are being

that they're being privatized and broken

up because of this belief this ancient

belief which is based on no evidence

it's just incredible how

how strong it is I remember being in

university and hearing this again and

again i'll try to do the common strategy

of the commons to the point where I just

thought it was true I thought oh wow

what a pity you know

we just

you know unfortunately

we can't

share

that's what it means ultimately we're

just not able to share and we'll always

end up fighting but that's not true so

we need to find lots and lots of

examples and start telling each other

start reminding each other start showing

each other no look like here in plum

village like you were saying here's an

amazing example like none of us own

a car or none of us have a separate bank

account you know pretty much everything

we have is is is freely

shared

um and it's beautiful

it's amazing it's an amazing way

to live and it's totally

possible so

let's find these new stories let's start

telling them in lots and lots of

different ways and and so then when we

do that tying it all back together it's

like

identify the roots of the old

views

see what is nourishing them in terms of

the media that we consume what are the

news stories what are the fiction

stories what are the conversations that

we're having what are the things that

we're taking in that are reinforcing

constantly these old views and stop

or limit you go go on a diet it got a

media diet

can I find better sources of information

can I find sources of information where

these news stories of cooperation

collaboration kindness altruism and love

are being told can I nourish myself with

that then my view will start to change

because i'm taking in different food

then you change your mind you know then

you start contributing to that change by

telling those stories you know it

spreads beyond you and then maybe you

change your environment you change your

way of living because you have faith

that this new way of living is possible

and then we come together as groups

and we organize ourselves we learn like

okay how practically do we do that how

do we create a community what are the

principles this this is not a problem

that hasn't been solved you know

this is a problem with solutions

[音樂]

[音樂]

brother Phap Huu as brother fabin says plum

villages may be a good example of that

and and I i want to ask you a couple of

things around that one is about

what are the

principles that have allowed plum

village to

succeed so so if we say that we want to

move from individualism to

to more community what what are the

basic tenets of success but but first of

all maybe

if you come to Plum Village for the

first time or you know it can look quite

boring I mean compared with this sort of

world outside which is full of exciting

you can jet off on a holiday you can go

to the movies you can go night clubbing

you can go out for a nice steak and

chips and oh actually shouldn't we talk

about that

you know but but but you know go for a

go go down the pub and have a few pints

and

and uh go home and watch netflix and

etcetera etcetera I mean it it looks

very exciting

and it's very diverse and you can keep

doing new things then you come to plum

village and you know you tend to do the

same things and it's you you're you're

you know you're

you're not engaged in that

is it

boring brother

or or is it just

that it's coming with a different view

it's definitely a perception

and

I have to say my life is not boring

um

humans we all have our own stories we

all have our experiences

and

living together

is so enriching

you know I i only finished middle school

and

after that I didn't go to high school I

didn't go to university but everything

i've learned is by living in this

community

we can also say that Plum Village for me

on

speaking personally has been my

education also my upbringing

and

through all of this experience that i've

lived

in this

diverse community

it has given me so much flavor

and it is not boring at all

we sing we learn different cultures

we get to eat all interesting meals

because each of us come from a different

mother a different grandmother with

different recipes

we have

i've learned new ways of

speaking new ways of telling a story

i've learned

about

different behavior what that means in

this culture what it means in our

culture

and then also another aspect because I

became a monk was learning

this beautiful tradition this beautiful

monastic tradition which

goes way back to 2600 years

and

we are an evolving community we're an

organism that is living we're not

statues so we all have

life we have joy we have happiness and

we have suffering um

so you know just

just to you know uh speak

and say no my life is not boring if

anything sometimes there's too many

things going on

and i'm just like wait what am I doing

as a monk like shouldn't I be just like

looking at a tree

but here we are

um and then also because the direction

of our community which is

engagement which is how having

hundreds and thousands of people come

throughout the year especially before

the pandemic and

at one stage after um this pandemic

um

people coming bringing life bringing the

world here

educates us also you know when I

um when I listen to people's stories

that also gives me insight knowing what

suffering is

and that therefore because i've learned

from that that means I don't have to

suffer like that because i've seen a

different way

and so that is also very entertaining so

yes we don't

um

we don't watch like

netflix and movies um like I guess like

everyday like people but from time to

time our community we do

watch um very

wholesome movies or documentaries and

things like that too to keep us also

engaged with what is happening in the

world so

we

we have done many workshops on

the climate

yesterday we just had a workshop on the

lgbtq plus

community for us to continue to learn

evolve so we're very rich in a way and I

and I

I feel like in the community because

community is made out of people

and what is it that makes us have more

fun is people right because you go

clubbing to be with people but here we

we

we party but we party with tea so we're

all very sober we're all very present so

you're not gonna do something really

stupid and embarrassing so you're gonna

be very alive and

joe you've experienced a lunar new year

celebration here right it is

with this monastic lay friends in the

dhamma wasn't it fun like like the

amount of like interaction and etc I i

think the thing that

it adds the flavor adds in particularly

for me is intimacy

because I i think with all these um

entertainment things to do in the world

they're they're things that might excite

our mind in that moment

but often at the end of it it leaves us

feeling empty whereas I feel here

there's a deep intimacy that that really

I feel like you talk about tears like

infuses who I am

and it allows me to

see myself more deeply because it's more

real

exactly and that's why this podcast is

called the way out is in because the

whole purpose is to say

not to look for the answer out because

that's never the answer it's an

avoidance

and here it may on the surface look

boring

but the truth is it it allows us to take

that extraordinary

journey into ourselves and into life you

know and and it feels like that is the

the new you know people in the 16th

century used to getting on a small boat

and go to the far horizons to search for

new lands

and I think

we are

here

looking for

new lands it feels like an adventure but

adventure going in on an adventure going

out so yeah and tet is is is not only

intimate but it's joyful and I think

that's the other thing that often often

outside the these things you can do

are

they they're momentary they're but

they're like a

like um um a firework display in the

night sky they look beautiful but after

20 minutes it goes dark again whereas

here it feels that the

the joy here is

lasting it stays it stays it has a big

impact

yes so coming back to like our community

one of your questions is what are some

of the principles

so

this is not a Plum Village um

it it wasn't born from the Plum Village

community

but we have um

[音樂]

we have changed the language a little

bit so in buddhism you will hear about

the six harmonies and this comes from

the time of the buddha and his community

and in the sixth harmony is what really

keeps us really united and also keeps us

on the same line

meaning that in a community I i do feel

a direction is very important

and that direction gives energy a right

direction which is a right view will be

very encouraging and it gives us energy

to to to move forward and if there's no

direction then at one point we're all

going to be so lost and then chaos can

happen right if everybody has different

views then there's no harmony

so the first harmony is learning to live

together physically in harmony we all

live in a monastery under

one big umbrella

and we all have to know how to live

together

so in Plum Village we

compassion is our

um one of our foundation so we all learn

to

eat vegetarian so joe if you come here

you want to eat a steak you know I will

ask you to please leave

the upper hamlet property and you can

have your steak somewhere else

but in Plum Village like that's one of

the harmonies and we learn

to respect um

this direction

it brings us it cultivates our

aspiration

so learning to be in harmony with each

other by our action daily action

and we have mindfulness trainings uh so

for monastics from monks we have many

precepts that helps us

stay

in

in line with our deepest aspiration what

that's what the precept is it helps us

stay with our aspiration because our

habits

some of us lived in the world much

longer so we have a lot of worldly

habits and it needs signs to say hey

don't do that that goes against your

aspiration and then for the lay

community we also have like the 14 month

fitness trainings which you have

undertake as well as the five month

fitness trainings and that those are

very fundamental guidelines that keeps

our community in harmony when we live

together

um the second is we learn to share

resources like what type of blind shared

is that we don't have a personal bank

account we don't have a personal car

none of these houses is under any of our

names

and this is the insight of buddhism

which is like we

we're here we're present but we're all

connected

and nothing actually belongs to you

because one day you're not here anymore

and where does that go

right so by living in this spirit um it

also carries the teaching and then the

intention of wanting to

to protect mother earth we have seen

that by living together and by sharing

we would do so much

it's this idea that I want my own car

type of lin wants his own car joe you

want your own car then suddenly if

that's the case we won't even have space

for you we'll just our monastery will

just be a parking lot

for all of the monks and all of the nuns

and all the lay friends right but you

you break free from that idea

that by traveling you can travel

together and it's actually much more fun

and we share material it's this is a

real practice

um not just by

by by eating together um

but even when like a brother he receives

a package a care package from his family

we we are taught to learn to share that

with with one another

and that's a very basic human kindness

but we forget about that because of our

greed but when you do it and I think

there is actually science um proof that

when you share you're more happy

and and this becomes our reality so

whenever I receive a package from

uh

from my family or even from joe and you

pass when you give us some gifts like

i'm like oh this is my chocolate i'm

gonna eat it alone in a corner of course

I can do that

but that's not happiness when I and

actually I can bring it to a table with

other friends

and I could say hey this was uh this was

love from our two dear friend let's

enjoy it together and you see the other

people enjoy it that becomes your joy so

you learn to share not just material you

learn to share people's happiness you

learn to share people's suffering and

suffering here doesn't mean you suffer

joe and I have to suffer with you but I

suffer I know you suffer and I want to

support you

so we see we were slowly breaking

barrier of individualism

and this is a practice and like what

type of lin shared when he was sharing I

was

I was reflecting and just seeing yeah I

still have a lot of habits that goes

toward that story of individualism I

want to be the hero

and one of the cool thing about plum

village

monastic training and this is very

important for us in the spiritual world

is that as we grow in in our

our path we we start to develop some

kind of power

some kind of authority

and if we can get sidetracked and lost

in this but one of the beauty here is we

we teach together there is no

um many people have asked me so after

tai passes our our teacher who's the

next technical

I said nobody

tai has told us very clearly the

continuation of thai is the community

so each and every one of us will be his

continuation each and every one of us

will share this responsibility and

that's the power of community

and today I can give the dhamma talk but

tomorrow type of blind the next day it

is another sister etc so we share this

responsibility

that also protects our ego and that

protects our

arrogance

and and what I love about it is like

after you know I give a dhamma talk

for let's say the community it could be

a big community it can be a small

community but after that I joined the

community in walking meditation I joined

the community in eating together

and it's this image that we have in plum

village is it says learn to go as a

river be a drop of water in the river

and don't be that oil that drop of oil

that doesn't can't penetrate into it so

all of our activities is

is um

directed towards that spirit but we have

to be reminded of this because our

habits are strong this these stories

that have we have accumulated from past

centuries

and or not centuries past years decades

are are in each and every one of us

sometimes I recognize

my own um ambition i'm like wait wait

that

if I accomplish that

what do I get

but then when you see when we accomplish

it together as a community

we all benefit so that's sharing

and then we have the ethics of sharing

the same principle which I talked about

the mindfulness trainings how to conduct

ourselves in the way of life

if not then

it becomes like a circus like anybody

can do whatever they want then

there

there's there's no harmony and there's

no

spirit of of going in one direction so

this doesn't mean that we don't allow

you to have like openness and things

like that but there are some guidelines

that help us

to make sure that we're not going

sidetracked being sidetracked

this one is really important is sharing

insights and views

we all have views we all have ideas

and we learn to share it and we grow

with it together and sometimes insight

and views can change and that helps us

to grow

and we have a lot of meetings we have a

lot of sharing and we learn to also let

go of her views we've been talking a lot

about views because sometimes our views

can be the

the obstacle to happiness

so we learn to be in harmony we learn to

listen that's so important we have to

learn to listen and the fifth one is

sharing from the heart meaning we want

to communicate communication is a way of

life

and

connection

right we all want to be connected and

our our speech is such a bridge

and we all learn to cultivate loving

speech here

we learn to speak the truth but there's

a way of speaking the truth that is not

harmful and decisive and discriminating

there's always a way of showing

suffering but in a different way

and there's a way of

um sharing our appreciation with

gratitude

then looking for people to um to feed

their ego how is it that yeah you know

you're just pumping them out we're not

just pumping them up but there's it's a

real connection like i'm so grateful for

that and when it's done from the heart

is very different than you're just

bluffing

or the other languages you're not

kiss-assing right

he asks you right sorry

you want better today no no let's keep

that

and

um the last one

is harmony of thoughts

we have to learn to

to to listen to one another to learn to

be open to one another

and this is a real training and we're

all still doing it and

and one thing to also be reminded is

that we're not looking for perfection

Plum Village is not perfect we all have

our flaws we are still growing we're

still evolving

we're gonna have many more mistakes that

we're going to

that's going to present itself and we

have

enough courage to look at it and say wow

that was wrong and then let's transform

it let's change it and that is a very

strong view but that's a very important

insight to have that we're not a perfect

community

yeah and I think you know if as you're

listening to this you're wondering like

okay this is all very well but you know

I got to go back to my cubicle I have to

go back to my work and you know where am

I going to find community in my life I

think

so okay I would make a suggestion so one

thing that we now know is that a sense

of community develops around a shared

vision or a shared aspiration

so how do we create that shared vision

or that shared aspiration well the first

thing is just to get together and to

talk about it so even as a company

or in your team or even as a family

as a school as a classroom

and whatever groups that you're part of

and it can be multiple real belong to

multiple different groups

we could organize a time to sit down

together and say

okay well let's hear you know what so

for each of us what is the most

important thing what are our most

important values and can we identify

from all of those values something

shared a collective

vision or aspiration and then we make a

kind of commitment to that you know to

to helping each other to to realize that

and um

that's very powerful we really can kind

of come together around that and and it

can be

it can just feel very good it feel we

feel less isolated we feel more

connected to each other and what I love

about

uh

this new kind of vision of how we can

how we can be together how we can

understand

ourselves our interconnected selves

is that there's still space for

individuality it doesn't mean

that we all just become photocopies of

each other and it's all just conformity

and you know walking in step

that's the amazing thing so for example

you know when you hear I remember when I

first encountered Plum Village and I

heard about the five mindfulness

trainings the 14 mindfulness trainings

the 250 precepts of the big shoes I was

kind of like oh my goodness that just

sounds like totally regimented

conformity

you know

there's not going to be any space in

that but what's amazing

is that

uh when I look at my brothers

which we have 250 precepts right

but

we're all so different

yes we're so diverse

you know I might not even share

affinities necessarily with a brother we

might have totally different interests

and yet I can look at him and say

wow I know that we have this this deep

agreement

around

our ethical

principles that we share fundamentally

this this this sense of what is it what

you know what it is that we want to

cultivate in this life what is important

what are the things that we're going to

do what are the things that we're not

going to do

and that's amazing because I can feel

completely connected to somebody that in

fact

otherwise I might

not share much aspirate not not much

affinity with you know we just don't

maybe not have the same interests or

hobbies or you know things that we want

to study or investigate

but we still share that

and and and what I want to say is this

there's so much freedom like

when when I can look at somebody and

know

okay we are practicing the same precepts

we're cultivating the same kind of

ethics

then I feel it's like automatic

connection

it's very freeing actually and then I

can allow that person to be themselves

and they can allow me to be myself

but we can still feel connected without

having to be identical

so brothers just finally um

you know what what's on my mind is this

sort of sense of

there's always an opportunity

in difficult times in fact there's the

only an opportunity in difficult time

and difficult times is the only time

there's an opportunity

um because of course

I remember my dad wrote me a letter once

said you know life is not about handing

not for me to hand you a rose but to

hand you an onion that you

um you peel every layer and you cry you

know it's like you we we find ourselves

through

suffering not

in and it's the suffering we go through

in order to find the joy we can't bypass

the suffering

so can you brother father maybe first

talk about the opportunity there is now

because

at the moment

uh they say it's dark as just before the

dawn

and um

and we seem to be at this crossroads

where

if

we don't have what tai would call a

collective awakening

um

we are very very likely and ty talks

about the but and I talked talked about

it before most people do but now it's

become almost

established understanding that

that we are heading for

a

catastrophe that is that is even if we

can intellectually think about it now is

unimaginable in terms of the suffering

it will create

and there's this opportunity that this

time will turbo charge this change into

this new paradigm

so I don't really know what my question

is brother fablin but but one aspect of

it is

have you sat

with

collapse

and is it possible to sit with collapse

because it's

the pet the pain and suffering will be

so extreme that we we can't even

begin to understand what that would look

like

and also have you sat

with

the new paradigm being

part of this world and part of the

mainstream hmm so the answer is yes and

yes

I suspected so and you know the the the

notion of the collapse um I feel like

i've been sitting that with that my

whole life

from since a very very young age I was

intensely aware

that we cannot continue to live

as we are living I used to feel

physically

hurt by

just

seeing roads and cars and you know trees

being cut down and the pollution of the

environment and animals being killed I

even as a very very small child I i was

always kind of making trouble for my

family

trying to you know stop them from using

the car or you know I would refuse to

get in a boat if I if I if

you know it was an engine a boat with an

engine instead of a punt or something

you know or a robot

I would make things very difficult for

everyone

um and I think that's true for many

people especially now um people who are

in their teens or in their 20s

we're all growing up with this knowledge

it's it's right there it's right in our

face we're all feeling it

um and so

yeah I as a teenager and growing up in

my 20s I used to have dreams regularly

of a kind of apocalypse of a flood or

fire or just kind of like

it's all gonna come crashing down

and that kind of obsessed me for a while

and I was like getting a little bit into

the prepping as well I remember like

stocking up in my grandmother's garage

with

you know food that would last for years

I was like we got to be ready you know

who knows when it's going to come and

you know so the first survivalists I

know it was a little bit nuts maybe I

read too much science fiction but

so

and then as a practitioner as a

meditator I i started to see like

okay so we all face old age

sickness

death

and loss and separation this is like one

of the very basic contemplations of a

buddhist practitioner the four

remembrances

um

and the point is that that's not morbid

it's not

and it's not like depressing to think

about your own death it's energizing

because it makes you realize the

preciousness of this moment of what we

have not just

you know me my body my aspirations my

wishes but each other

it makes you look around you know and

you look into the eyes of your loved

ones and you see like

wow

they're really there they're now they're

there now and so how could I not

treasure that knowing that it won't

always be so you know you look at a tree

and you know that

well

I mean I remember sitting in this hut

with tai

and he looked out and we have this

beautiful view of the forest

and he pointed to it and he said

in 20 years

is that still going to be a forest

or would it be a supermarket

and I was just kind of frozen you know

like am I supposed to answer am I

supposed to say something I don't know

what i'm supposed to do but I was just

looking at this beautiful view

and then he turned to me and he said it

depends on you

and that's not uh that that's that that

should give us energy

because it means that we can still do

something it's not too late

and so like when we look at our own

death it can give us energy and we

treasure the preciousness of what we

have but also when we look at the death

of our civilization the end of our

civilization is the same

because of course

we know that it can happen and

ultimately it will happen sooner or

later all civilizations come to an end

that's just in the course of things

whether it's in a hundred years or a

thousand years or a million years who

knows but

we have to

kind of

metabolize that

we have to let that in

and sit with that and know that

and then it means that

we start to treasure everything we still

have all the

beauty in terms of our institutions our

art our culture

each other our communities

there's so much that's good

in our in our society in in all our

different cultures in the

multiculturalism in in the in the

diversity there's just so much beauty

and it's so

like it's so when you know that that can

be lost

you want to save everything that you can

and anything that you can save is saved

that's the amazing thing there's this

beautiful story about

you know a girl walking along the beach

and all the starfish have been washed up

by the tide

and she starts you know she goes and she

picks up one and she throws it back in

the sea

and then she picks up another one she

throws that one back into but there's

millions of them and so her friend says

why do you you know why you bothered

there's no way you can't save them all

and she says yeah but I can save this

one

I can save this one and this one and

this one and this one

and we can do that too

there's so much that we can save

you know

and that so that's what

that's what it means to me that that

contemplation uh it's it's not a morbid

thing it's an energizing thing it gives

me energy it motivates me

what was the other part of your question

well whether you've sat with us being in

the new paradigm we want to create yeah

okay that it actually exists and we're

looking out at it right right right so

what does that

what does that look like um

yes that's right it's it's to do with

um the inside of into being like we

again like I said before we we we get it

intellectually

we get it but I invite you to do a

little

exercise because I think we're still

stuck in the

yeah the story of

individuals i'm i'm me you're you

you're outside of me i'm outside of you

ultimately we're separate yeah sure

we're kind of interdependent and we're

kind of interconnected but really when

you get down to it come on

you know

we're separate

so i'm very interested in seeing how

we can challenge that and starting to

feel not just know but to feel the

interdependence

so I once asked a group i've done this

with several groups it's a very nice

exercise you sit there you pair up and

you ask uh so what one member of the

pair is gonna listen the other one

shares

and I asked the one to share the the

you know the person he's gonna share

to share

the most

inspiring and joyful thing that happened

to them in the last week thing that gave

them the most

joy and enthusiasm and the job of the

one who listens

is to be completely indifferent

not to feel anything

so the question is are my feelings mine

do I have feelings that are mine that

are separate

right so if that's true if i'm just me

then I could sit there I can be

completely blank and I will be untouched

by

your joy your enthusiasm your

inspiration so it's an experiment

right so you sit there and say you try

to be completely blank you try to not

you try not to smile you try not to let

your eyes sparkle you know you just sit

there and you say yeah whatever

it is impossible

it's completely impossible I mean it was

a real revelation for this group that I

did it with and they all shared and then

we switched around

and they tried to be different and I was

like okay so did it work could you sit

there and be unmoved and they're like

no I it's like just completely

impossible so the point is that we feel

each other's feelings

so what we think of as mine it's not

mine

it's ours

when you have joy I feel joy I can't

help it you know when you suffer like

part of me suffers too

you know it's everything that we think

of as mine is not only mind it's both

collective and individual

and that's what we can start

experiencing and stuff and there's lots

of playful creative ways that we can

start to

to share that to teach that in schools

to

you know to to get in touch with it

ourselves as meditators that's just one

example um but but I yeah I think it's

it's nice because it's concrete it's

something we can do

and right away

then while you're gonna start to think

about yourself in a different way you're

gonna start to see yourself

in a different way you can't start to

conceive of yourself

as a different

entity a different phenomenon

one which is more like

uh

I like it I like to think of having no

edge so we think of ourselves as being

bounded by our skin

it's like the edge of me is my skin

but if I can feel what you're feeling

then well it's immediately obvious that

my edge is not my skin

right

that you're in me and i'm in you

so it's very concrete

thank you brother um

it's I i love these uh uh sessions

because uh I feel I come in as one

person

and I feel I always leave as a slightly

different person

so um brother fablin thank you for

sharing your insights and um

I i feel you've been sort of working

with this

for so long and and so it's lovely to be

able to come and and um

synthesize that learning and and to

share it in such a

clear and beautiful way so thank you for

joining us today

so uh dear friends uh we hope you have

enjoyed this session as much as we've

enjoyed it um

you can hear

all the other

podcasts in this series the way out is

in on apple podcast on spotify

on all other platforms that carry

podcast and also on the Plum Village app

and this podcast was brought to you by

the generous donors of the technical

foundation if you would like to support

future episodes of the podcast and the

work of the international Plum Village

community please visit the website

www.tnhf.org

and friends now it is time to enjoy a

little bit of meditation

so wherever you are if you're sitting on

a bus sitting on a train

going for a walk doing a little chore in

your home if you can allow yourself to

just have some moments of stillness

and connect to your breath

and today brother fablin will guide us

in this meditation

okay so wherever you are wherever you

find yourself um

yeah maybe try to sit down somewhere

comfortable

settle into

your your posture your feeling of

contact with the earth

whether you can feel your feet on the

ground

your buttocks on the chair or on a log

or a cushion

and just see if you can allow yourself

to

sink into that contact

feel a little

heavier like you

just

maybe you've been kind of holding

yourself up holding yourself together

and now you can just

give yourself back to the earth

you don't need to hold anything

just let yourself be supported by mother

earth

and then you may notice

the movement of your abdomen with the

in-breath

the abdomen rises

and

you notice that the abdomen falls with

the out breath

this in-breath

is the out-breath of the trees

I breathe in the fresh oxygen produced

by the trees and the grass the plankton

all the green things of the earth

what a gift

I breathe out

and my out breath is the in-breath of

the trees and all the green things

I exchange with them my carbon dioxide

and they breathe it in

to combine with light and glucose water

to produce

more fresh oxygen for me to breathe

my in-breath

the out breath of the trees

my out breath

the in-breath of the trees

as I breathe in

[音樂]

I feel the warmth

in my

body as I breathe out

I see that that warmth

is an unbroken chain

from my mother

my grandmother my great-grandmother

stretching all the way back

through every generation

without interruption

even before we were humans

I receive the gift of that warmth

and I pass it on

through my love

my kindness my smile

to my friends

to my colleagues to my children

students

the gift of life

and warmth

I receive

and I pass it on

breathing in all the love

that i've been shown

every example

of kindness and love

my family my friends my teachers my

society

I see how it nourishes me

it makes me who I am

breathing out I make the vow

to continue

to share

that love that kindness that generosity

to be

an example

for those that follow

my friends my family

my students my colleagues

breathing in

love

breathing out

love

you can allow yourself to smile to open

your eyes

to start to move a little bit

you can maybe have a little stretch

open your eyes look around see what is

beautiful

thank you

thank you friends thank you for joining

us we wish you a wonderful day

[音樂]

so

[音樂]

the way out to steam

[音樂]

you