Surrogacy in Thailand

[ theme music ]

KERRY O'BRIEN: The world knows him
simply as 'Baby Gammy'

but he's only one of many
Thai surrogate children.

JAMES: We're talking 8 or 9 Australian
surrogate children a day

going through the Embassy.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Is the industry
out of control?

GALLAGHER: Exploitation
is an almost inevitable

side effect of commercial surrogacy.

LORRAINE: I don't feel that
we have exploited anybody.

PASCOE: I think we need a
proper national enquiry

that looks at all aspects of surrogacy.

KERRY O'BRIEN: The uncomfortable truths
of unregulated surrogacy.

Welcome to the program.

When the story of Baby Gammy
broke in August

it shed new light on the growing use
of imported commercial surrogacy

by many Australian couples
desperate for a baby.

In Australia, commercial surrogacy
is banned,

except in the Northern Territory
where it is unregulated.

In New South Wales, Queensland,
and the ACT

it's illegal to engage in
overseas surrogacy arrangements.

But, so far, there has not been
a single prosecution

and the number of overseas surrogacy
arrangements has increased dramatically.

India is the biggest source
of surrogate babies.

But when India cracked down on providing
babies for gay parents in early 2013,

the commercial surrogacy trade
in Thailand skyrocketed.

Now, after the revelations
around Baby Gammy,

and as the new Thai government moves
to ban commerical surrogacy,

ethical and legal issues about the
rights of the child, the surrogate mother,

and the would-be parents
are in the spotlight.

Reporter Debbie Whitmont travelled
to Thailand to explore this compelling

and very human drama.

WHITMONT: After more than a decade,
David Markovich finally has the family

that he and his wife have
so desperately wanted.

The only problem is he
can't take them home.

Instead, David, a 52-year-old
lawyer from Perth,

has spent the last 5 weeks in a
serviced apartment in Bangkok

with 8-week-old Liam
and his twin brother, Joe.

David's brother-in-law, Brendan, has
flown in from England to lend a hand.

It hasn't been easy.

DAVID: I probably feel a bit like
he does at the moment.

I'm just a little less vocal about it.

WHITMONT: After years of unsuccessful IVF,

David and his wife, Lorraine, were told
they were too old to adopt children.

Their last resort was
paid surrogacy in Thailand.

Liam and Joe were born in Bangkok
at the end of June.

Lorraine went back to work in Australia,

expecting David and the babies
would soon follow.

But they haven't been able to leave.

DAVID: We're just over the moon.

We're just entirely in love.

My wife is waiting as pati..
as patiently as she can

in Perth for their return
as soon as possible.

WHITMONT: Over the past few years,
hundreds of surrogate babies

have flown out of Thailand
on Australian passports.

But since July, the Thai military government
has been stopping them at the airport.

DAVID: I think our tummy's eased off
which is lovely.

WHITMONT: Now David says he can't
stay in Bangkok much longer.

He's run out of leave from his job
and he's running out of money.

DAVID: If I don't return to Australia,

we may lose our house.

Come on, my baby. Come on, come on.
Shhh, shh, come on, my baby, come on.

WHITMONT: It's a nightmare, especially
with two 8-week-old babies?

DAVID: Yeah, yeah.
Nothing short of that, I'd have to say.

I'm.. Y'know I've had less than a handful
of hours sleep in the last few days

and I'm.. yeah. (cries)

WHITMONT: Out of desperation, David's hired
a lawyer to make an emergency application.

The application is in court tomorrow,

but it has to be heard in a court near
the surrogate mother's hometown

in the far north of Thailand.

And that means taking the babies
on an hour-long plane trip

and a four-hour drive.

And before that, it's an
hour's drive to Bangkok airport.

DAVID: Not happy, are we?

WHITMONT: David's realised he doesn't
have a suit to wear in court.

DAVID: Brendan brought me a pair of trousers.

I've got shorts and thongs. (laughs)

I wasn't... I wasn't planning on appearing
before a court whilst over here.

WHITMONT: David's brother-in-law, Brendan,

thought he was only coming to Thailand to
help David take the babies back on the plane.

How you finding looking after newborn twins?

BRENDAN: Uh, hectic. (laughs)

They cause an awful lot of chaos
for the size of them.

WHITMONT: Up until now,
Brendan had never changed a nappy.

You enjoying it in some ways?

BRENDAN: Umm. I can think of
a lot better things to do.

WHITMONT: Very good bonding
experience for brothers-in-law, is it?

BRENDAN: We're all stuck together, anyway.
I think we bond better drinking.

WHITMONT: As David and Brendan arrive
at the airport, there's good news.

The Thai lawyer thinks the court will
give David the order he needs.

They could all be heading home
to Australia tomorrow.

(baby's mobile plays song)

Back in Australia, James and Danny Carrington
are thrilled and relieved to be home.

Their new twins, Elijah and Hannah,

were among the last to leave Thailand
before the shutdown.

JAMES: That's a big smile!

WHITMONT: Elijah and Hannah were
born in Bangkok in May.

JAMES: I think we both cried.

We weren't allowed to actually
hold them for 24 hours

and when we went back to
the nursery the next day,

we were actually allowed to
hold them and feed them.

And it was the most beautiful thing.

DANNY: Time to get your
nappy changed. Here we go.

WHITMONT: Before James
and Danny left Bangkok,

the Thai surrogacy trade was booming.

JAMES: There were people from
Canada, from America.

There were people from China, Israel, Taiwan
DANNY: China, South Korea..

and it was quite amazing, y'know,

like we're talking 8 or 9 Australian surrogate
children a day going through the embassy,

but it's, it's big.

Hey, what's the matter, hey?

WHITMONT: James already
has an adult family.

JAMES: Oh, you are very tired.

WHITMONT: But growing up gay, Danny always
thought he would never be able to be a father.

DANNY: Growing up gay, you sort of feel
like 'I'm not gonna have kids'

and you live with that during your
teenage years and your 20's.

The way that time has changed, though,
people's attitudes have also changed.

To now be able to do it...

.. It's, y'know, a miracle.

(plane engines roaring)

WHITMONT: What James and Danny
and David have done in Thailand

would be illegal in Australia.

But with more and more Australians going
overseas for commercial surrogacy,

the international surrogacy trade
is raising some difficult

legal and moral questions for Australia.

DAVID: I think you need to put yourself
in the position of being someone

who's denied or is unable to have
children for whatever reason.

Y'know, if you stop and think and put yourself
in that place, what view would you take?

GALLAGHER: For better or worse,
international law and Australian law

doesn't give us a right to be a parent.

We need to start looking at the
other parties involved in this;

the child, and look at the best interests
of the child; and the surrogate,

and perhaps we should be asking questions
about justice and ethics and morality.

(Thai singing and music)

WHITMONT: Until recently, Thailand's surrogacy
trade had managed to stay under the radar.

But a few months ago, the growing number
of Thai women working as surrogate mothers

attracted the interest of a Bangkok
TV station, 'Thai Rath'.

A young journalist called a phone number
on a surrogacy website

to ask how Thai women
became surrogate mothers.

The woman who answered
told her it was easy.

NIMNAUN: (speaking Thai)

WHITMONT: Surprisingly, the woman
who's name was Pattaramon Janbua,

then said she was a surrogate mother herself

and that she had a Down Syndrome baby

who'd been abandoned
by his Australian parents.

Pattaramon's nickname is Goy.

Within days, Goy and Baby Gammy
brought the world's media to Thailand.

DAVID: I was convicted and I went to jail.

WHITMONT: And before long, to Gammy's
Australian parents, the Farnells.

DAVID: We need to be calm.
DEBBIE: It soon came out that not only

had Gammy been abandoned,
but that his father, David Farnell,

was a convicted sex offender.

Almost overnight, the Gammy case
changed everything for Thai surrogacy.

GALLAGHER: I think if there is a
bright side to the Gammy case,

it is that it's shed a light on this practice
that many people were actually unaware of.

Australia is a major source country
for intending parents in surrogacy.

So, in that sense that's... Gammy,
Baby Gammy has, perhaps,

done us all a favour to, at least,
force a conversation

around these issues that were
just not out in the open.

WHITMONT: But with all the focus on Gammy,

there's been much less attention
on the plight of his mother, Goy.

Gammy and Goy live in an industrial town
about 90 kilometres south of Bangkok,

where Goy and her grandmother run a
food stall that makes about $20 a day.

Last year, Goy found a website that said
as a surrogate she could make $12,000.

Goy was hired by a Thai agent

who, in turn, went for a surrogacy company
based in Los Angeles.

ADVERTISMENT: The Superior A.R.T. infertility
treatment and semen diagnostic centre...

WHITMONT: The Thai agent sent Goy to a
clinic in Bangkok, called Superior A.R.T.

ADVERTISEMENT:.. and the
world renowned Genea...

WHITMONT: Though commercial
surrogacy is illegal in Australia,

Superior A.R.T. is part-owned by one of
Australia's biggest IVF companies: Genea.

Goy says the doctor didn't tell her
he was implanting three embryos.

After two weeks, Goy found out
she was pregnant with twins,

and that an early blood test suggested
there could be a problem.

The agency asked the Australian clients whether
they wanted Goy to have a further test,

an amniocentesis, to find out for certain.

JOY: We asked them "If you want
to do further tests or not?

But if you do it and if you receive this result,
one is healthy and another one is not,

what would you do?"

So, it's already... The situation is already,
y'know, stressful from that moment.

WHITMONT: They decided
Goy should have the test.

Four months into the pregnancy it showed
that one of the twins had Down Syndrome.

But no one told Goy.

The doctor in the company discussed
the problem with the Australian parents.

It wasn't until Goy was
seven months pregnant

that she was told one of the
babies had Down Syndrome.

And then, at seven months, she says
she was asked to abort both the babies.

Goy says that when she refused,

she was told that if she didn't abort
the Down Syndrome baby,

he'd be put in an institution.

Upset, Goy says she told Joy
she needed time to talk to her family.

She did, and then she made a
suggestion to Joy and the company.

The agent and the company were relieved,
but Goy only got half the extra money.

The Farnell's ran out of cash and
said they'd take Gammy

instead of paying the rest.

DAVID: We never abandoned him...

WHITMONT: The Farnell's have
denied abandoning Gammy

and asking Goy to have an abortion.

In the end, Gammy has stayed with Goy

and a foundation pays his medical
expenses from public donations.

But Goy can't hide her feelings
about Gammy's sister, Piper,

who's now in Australia.

Even Goy's agent, Joy, says she was
traumatised and has quit the company.

After five hours of travel,
David, Brendan, and the babies

have made it to northern Thailand
and the courthouse.

The babies' surrogate mother,
Phatnapha, has had to come too.

As their legal mother, she has to
consent to them leaving the country.

DAVID: Do you remember Phatnapha?
Yes? You remember?

Yes, she's a very special lady.

WHITMONT: Since yesterday, when it
looked like David would get

his emergency application to leave Thailand,
things have taken a turn for the worse.

The lawyers tell David the court
wants to adjourn his case for a month.

DAVID: I think the court doesn't
want to make a decision.

WHITMONT: They know they're the first one?
The first court to make this decision?

LAWYER: Mmm, yeah. They worry about that.

It's going to be them if something
wrong, it's going to be them, so...

WHITMONT: As feared, the judges
adjourn David's case for a month

and refer it to a higher court.

But they suggest there might be another
way for the babies to leave Thailand.

DAVID: Just come to Singapore with
the babies. And then you come back.

WHITMONT: Outside court David and the
lawyers are already working on a new plan.

The idea now is for the babies' birth mother,
Phatnapha, to fly out of Thailand with them.

The problem is that Joe and Liam will need
Thai passports and they don't have them.

DAVID: When will we find out how
quickly the passports can be done?

Whether it can be done tomorrow?

LAWYER: Mmm, the lady say one day,
take one day.

DAVID: So, same day?
LAWYER: Yes.

DAVID: So, we should be able to
fly out Friday night?

LAWYER: Should.
DAVID: Should.

LAWYER: But, don't book it yet because
otherwise you have to change on Monday.

Friday or Monday, anyway.
So, is it good?

DAVID: It's fabulous.
If it works, it's fabulous.

LAWYER: Good luck.
DAVID: Thankyou.

Okay, this application has
been adjourned off.

WHITMONT: David calls Lorraine to
change the flight bookings to Australia.

DAVID: The passport office in Bangkok

should be able to issue a passport
on the same day, I'm told.

WHITMONT: Phatnapha seems happy to have
been able to spend time with the babies.

Phatnapha says that Liam and Joe
will have a better life in Australia

than she could give them in Thailand.

It's probably true, but it
raises uncomfortable questions

about why commercial surrogacy
is OK in Thailand,

but against the law in Australia.

GALLAGHER: I think it's probably wise
for us to go back to the reasons why

we have prohibited,
uniformly prohibited surrogacy

on a commercial basis throughout Australia

and why it's prohibited in so many
countries all over the world.

My feeling is that exploitation

is an almost inevitable side-effect
of commercial surrogacy.

You're always going to have
that inequality of power.

WHITMONT: Phatnapha lives in a small town
with her mother and her 4-year-old daughter.

She's using the money from
the surrogacy to rent a shop

where she plans to sell massages.

But she's worried because she's still
waiting for the final payment: about $5,500.

The agencies told Phatnapha that
if she does what David's suggesting

and leaves Thailand with him and the babies,

it won't be able to help her
get the rest of the money.

The agent doesn't like Phatnapha
talking directly to David.

GALLAGHER: Brokers and middlemen
often have a vested interest to keep

the intending parents well away
from the surrogate.

If intending parents actually
develop contact with the surrogate

they will become aware, perhaps,
of the terms of her contract.

They may become aware, for example,
that the huge amounts of money

they're paying, only a very small amount
is trickling down to the surrogate.

WHITMONT: It turns out there is an issue with money.

Though most parents pay about
$60,000 for a successful surrogacy,

only about a quarter of that
goes to the surrogate mother.

DAVID: So, we kindly ask that you continue

to bear with us and help us
with the registration.

WHITMONT: While Phatnapha was pregnant,

David and his wife made monthly payments
into what they thought was her bank account.

But it wasn't hers.

The account was controlled by her agent.

DAVID: I'm concerned that you're getting
all of the money that we've been paying

and contributing to you.

WHITMONT: When we
found out that Phatnapha

got much less money
than David had paid her,

we decided to bring them together
with an interpreter.

INTERPRETER: She can't
tell the number exactly...

WHITMONT: Phatnapha says
that during the pregnancy

she got 10,000 baht = about $330 a month.

DAVID: So, 10,000 baht a month, no more?

WHITMONT: David says he was told
the minimum payment was $350 a month,

but he and his wife wanted to look after
Phatnapha so they paid more.

DAVID: My wife is making the payments
but it's my understanding

that we're paying $450 - $500 a month.

WHITMONT: Phatnapha didn't know
about the extra money

and the agent didn't tell her.

She missed out on nearly $2,000.

DAVID: I had no idea that you
were not getting all this money.

And I'm devastated to find out
that you didn't get it.

So, they've been assuming that
we'd been paying, umm

an additional $100 - $150 a month to
the agency because we like the agency?

WHITMONT: What made it worse was that
Phatnapha, like many surrogate mothers,

says she had to deal with both
an agent and a sub-agent.

If David hadn't had so much
trouble leaving the country,

it's unlikely that he and Phatnapha
would ever have talked about money.

James and Danny Carrington
have made getting to know

both their egg donor and their babies'
surrogate mother a priority.

JAMES: It's really important
that in creating a family

that we want these people to be part of
our children's lives as they grow up.

They need to know their story, they need
to know what culture they came out of,

what culture they're living with, umm,

and, uh, like we have a lovely
relationship now that we're home.

WHITMONT: We met Elijah and Hannah's
surrogate mother, Bo, in Thailand.

JAMES: Big smile for Mummy Bo!
Come on, get that big smile out!

WHITMONT: Her phone is full
of pictures of the babies.

You got one today?
BO: Today.

JAMES: Say 'hello Mommy Bo'.

JAMES: We love our clothes.
Yes, Hannah, that's it.

WHITMONT: Bo has
sent the babies new outfits.

JAMES: We look wonderful in them!
Oh, that's beautiful, isn't it?

WHITMONT: Danny sees Elijah and Hannah
as a gift made possible by modern technology.

And if technology can bring happiness,
he says, why shouldn't we use it?

DANNY: Once upon a time

yes, you had to live with whatever was
dealt to you, uh, naturally, physically.

These days, with technology,
the world is changing.

So, do you say the same to a deaf person:

You're born deaf, don't wear a hearing aid?

PASCOE: You can't pretend that
the technology doesn't exist.

The real issue is how
can governments ensure

that, to the greatest extent possible,
it's used appropriately.

WHITMONT: Chief Judge John Pascoe
believes that commercial surrogacy

should be allowed and regulated in Australia.

And, if so, Australians should be
banned from using it

in unregulated countries like Thailand.

PASCOE: My view is that if
commercial surrogacy is allowed

with proper regulation in Australia
to protect the rights of all parties,

then, umm, we should
simply have a law which

prevents children born of
surrogacy arrangements elsewhere

being brought back to Australia.

WHITMONT: In Bangkok, David and the
babies are skyping Lorraine in Australia.

DAVID: Is that Mummy? Is she
laughing at you? I think she is.

WHITMONT: Overnight, Lorraine has emailed
the agency about Phatnapha's missing money.

Miraculously, the final payment of $5,500
has suddenly appeared on a Sunday morning

in Phatnapha's bank account.

DAVID: Who knows what's
going on, but I'm delighted.

WHITMONT: But the missing money
from Phatnapha's monthly payments

never turns up and Phatnapha
doesn't dare chase it.

The surrogacy company used by
David and his wife, New Life,

is considered one of the most reputable.

New Life began in Tbilisi, Georgia.

It's founder, Dr. Mariam Kukunashvili,
brings egg donors from Georgia to Thailand.

Last year Mariam was one of the first to raise
concerns about another Thai horror story:

a young Japanese man collecting
multiple surrogate babies.

KUKUNASHVILI: In the reports it was clear

that he was expecting 6 more,
6 babies totally.

So, of course, so.. I got very suspicious.

WHITMONT: Mariam contacted
the doctor involved, Dr. Pisit.

A Bangkok doctor popular
with many Australians.

KUKUNASHVILI: I spoke with Dr. and I told
him that he was jeopardising his reputation

and it wasn't normal to make
for someone 15 babies every year.

Uh, but, um, he told "OK" and
then, seems he continued.

WHITMONT: And New Life
continued to use Dr. Pisit.

It was Dr. Pisit who treated Phatnapha.

WHITMONT: How do they manage...

Four Corners understands that
in at least one case

Dr. Pisit implanted four embryos
and they all succeeded.

KUKUNASHVILI: And her doctor was informed
only two embryos must be transferred.

He transferred - same doctor -
he transferred four.

Surrogate mother got pregnant
on... four babies

and then we have to send surrogate mother
from Thailand to Georgia,

remove ... uh, made the embryo reduction.

WHITMONT: Embryo reduction
isn't legal in Thailand.

Do you think that could've been
handled better, that case?

Did that worry you?

KUKUNASHVILI: Uh, yes.

WHITMONT: Two weeks ago
Dr. Pisit was questioned

about breaching Thailand's
medical guidelines.

He's denied any wrongdoing.

GALLAGHER: We're talking about practices
that really wouldn't be permitted

in Australia. Would be considered
ethically, and probably legally,

terribly troubling.

So, I think we need to look at something
like that from that perspective.

It's not good enough for our country

and why is it good enough somewhere else?

WHITMONT: Since the shutdown in Thailand,
New Life has begun moving

to one of the poorest countries
on Earth: Nepal.

Last month in Kathmandu, Dr Kukunashvili
was already interviewing agents

to begin recruiting Nepalese
surrogate mothers.

KUKUNASHVILI: In Nepal we are
going to set up branch

because of current issues in Thailand,
we are going to find alternative

for single and gay parents.

[ baby crying ]

WHITMONT: Back in Bangkok,
David and Brendan and Liam and Joe

are still at the serviced apartment.

They haven't got a court order

and they don't yet have
Thai passports for Joe and Liam.

DAVID: Oh, yes. Hello, how are you?

WHITMONT: But suddenly there's a call
from the Australian Embassy.

DAVID: Fantastic. Look, some,
someone will be calling Phatnapha..

WHITMONT: They want to contact Phatnapha.

DAVID: Yeah, she, she
doesn't speak any English.

They're going to ask her to sign a
document which provides her authority

for the children to leave with me.

And if she can do what the Consulate says...

WHITMONT: They want David
to come to the Embassy.

DAVID: The phone number I've got...

WHITMONT: Sounds like there've been
some top-level negotiations going on.

DAVID: Look, that is my impression that there
have been some high level discussions.

Um, it's all been kept entirely confidential.

WHITMONT: It's little wonder.

On the one hand, the Embassy can't simply
leave Australian surrogate babies in Thailand.

On the other hand,

taking them home could breach both
State laws and international obligations.

GALLAGHER: I think it's a very difficult
position for Australia's consular officials

because their job is to
implement the Citizenship Act.

But international law also prohibits,
absolutely, the sale of children

and that is transferring a child
from one person to another

for consideration, for money.

Now, it's very difficult to argue
that commercial surrogacy

is not sale of children.

And Australia has an international
legal obligation, in fact,

to prevent the sale of children.

DAVID: Mr Guts, will hook into anything.
Yes, there we go.

PASCOE: I think we need a
proper national enquiry

that looks at all aspects of surrogacy.

You have people wanting children
for all of the best reasons

and then you have people wanting children
for reasons that may not be so good.

And I think it's such a minefield

that the politicians have been
very reluctant to wade into it.

WHITMONT: In Bangkok, David and Brendan
are back from the Embassy

with Australian passports for Liam and Joe.

Hi, what happened?

DAVID: Well, um, there's good news
and there's bad news, as always.

The good news is that the Australian
government appears to have struck

some sort of a deal with the Thai authorities.

Um, we've been given a new list of documents,

um, which we must produce at the
airport in order to be able to exit.

WHITMONT: The bad news is that Phatnapha

will have to go back to northern
Thailand for another document.

A different document?
DAVID: A different document.

WHITMONT: Ok, and so how do you feel?

DAVID: Oh, well, it's a (laughs) it's a
partial high and a partial low.

It's like I'm here, I'm resigned to the fact
that I'm going to go and, uh, have a mojito.

WHITMONT: How are you, Brendan?

BRENDAN: Well, I'm looking forward
to the mojito. That's it.

WHITMONT: This could be the last time
Phatnapha sees Joe and Liam.

It isn't until late the next day that
David finally gets the last document.

BRENDAN: There we go.
DAVID: Well, that looks like it.

DAVID: Ok, I think we're there.
I think we're there.

WHITMONT: Congratulations!

DAVID: I'm not out yet.

WHITMONT: The flight to Australia
leaves in a few hours.

Well, David, you've cut it fine.
How you feeling?

DAVID: Umm... I'm exhausted.

I'm just exhausted. I've been
up since 4 this morning.

I've just had a bit of a bite to eat now.

Um, I've got all the paperwork
I understand will get me there.

WHITMONT: You feeling confident
about getting through customs?

DAVID: (sighs) Cautiously. As I've
often felt cautiously confident

about, um, most things throughout
this long journey.

I've, I've felt, I'm feeling
cautiously optimistic.

WHITMONT: This could be "Goodbye Bangkok."

DAVID: This could be... Let's just wait.
WHITMONT: Don't want to say that yet.

What about you, Brendan?
How're you feeling?

You think this might be it?
BRENDAN: Uh, fingers crossed.

We could be in with a chance.
That's as good as it gets, I think.

WHITMONT: It's supposed to take about
an hour to get to the airport,

but there's a downpour and a
traffic jam, and it takes nearly 2.

David will be the first to test the
Thai government's new arrangements.

Two weeks later in Perth,
Thailand seems a distant memory.

DAVID: We got through the initial checkpoint

and then we were pulled to one side
for further questioning.

And they said "Surrogacy?" and I said "Yes".

They allowed us through in the end,
so y'know, we were waved off

and had, y'know, did whatever
we had to do, and, but yeah.

LORRAINE: Joe! (laughs) Hello.
DAVID: Who's that?

WHITMONT: David and Lorraine couldn't
be happier with their new family.

And Joe and Liam couldn't be
more loved or wanted.

LORRAINE: I think it's just a real shame
that the focus has been on

Baby Gammy and this other case
[ baby crying ]

and not... not on all of the positives
that are coming out of surrogacy.

WHITMONT: David and Lorraine have
tried to do commercial surrogacy

as fairly as possible.

They say they want Joe and Liam
to know how they were born

and to know their birth mother.

But it's hard to know what commercial
surrogacy will mean in the future

for many other babies, who,
according to the law,

don't have Australian parents and may
never know who their real parents are.

PASCOE: The current situation, I think,
leaves children at the risk of

literally being marooned.

Their parents left in limbo and leaves
very vulnerable women and children

open to the risk of
very serious exploitation.

I think Australia is a first world country, uh,

and, um, and a leader in human rights.

It has to, uh, recognise that,

uh, your commitment to human rights

doesn't end at the customs barrier.

WHITMONT: There are good reasons
for Australia to sort out

it's position on commercial surrogacy,

but it won't be easy.

LORRAINE: I don't feel that
we have exploited anybody.

We entered into a commercial relationship.

We nominated Phatnapha.
We didn't approach her.

You can't escape the reality that
we come from a rich country

and she comes from a poor background.
There's no way round that,

but, I personally, don't
feel that she was exploited.

I can see that the argument is there,

but, umm, she saw an opportunity
to make a better life for herself

and she took it. And in doing so
gave us an enormous gift

that money can't pay for. Ever. Sorry.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Such an emotional journey

but such a fine ethical line to tread.

With regard to the claims in the story
that Baby Gammy's surrogate mother, Goy,

was implanted with three embryos.

We approached the clinic involved,
but they declined to cooperate.

Through their Thai solicitors and
a letter to the ABC dated yesterday,

Superior A.R.T. has said such claims
are false because company policy

prohibits implanting more than two embryos.

We're posting two statements on
our website that may be of interest.

One is from the Attorney General's
department about the way the government

deals with overseas surrogacy

and the other is from Genea, a key
Australian investor in Superior A.R.T.

Next on Four Corners a
special two-part investigation.

We go inside an industry that sells
a legal drug linked to the deaths

of 5 million people each year

to find out how the tobacco industry has
continued to survive and prosper.

Until next week, goodnight.