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The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist

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    Cloe Shasha: So welcome, Ibram,
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    and thank you so much for joining us.
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    Ibram X. Kendi: Well thank you, Cloe,
    and thank you Whitney,
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    and thank you everyone
    for joining this conversation.
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    And so, a few weeks ago,
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    on the same day we learned
    about the brutal murder of George Floyd,
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    we also learned that
    a white woman in Central Park
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    who chose not to leash her dog
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    and was told by a black man nearby
    that she needed to leash her dog,
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    instead decided
    to threaten this black male,
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    instead decided to call the police
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    and claim that her life
    was being threatened.
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    And of course, when we learned
    about that through a video,
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    many Americans were outraged,
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    and this woman, Amy Cooper,
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    ended up going on national TV
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    and saying,
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    like countless other Americans have said
    right after they engaged in a racist act,
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    "I am not racist."
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    And I say countless Americans
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    because when you really think
    about the history of Americans
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    expressing racist ideas,
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    supporting racist policies,
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    you're really talking about
    a history of people
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    who have claimed they're not racist,
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    because everyone claims
    that they're not racist,
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    whether we're talking about
    the Amy Coopers of the world,
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    whether we're talking about Donald Trump,
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    who, right after he said
    that majority-black Baltimore
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    is a rat and rodent-infested mess
    that no human being would want to live in,
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    and he was challenged as being racist,
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    he said, actually, I'm the least racist
    person anywhere in the world.
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    And so really the heartbeat
    of racism itself
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    has always been denial,
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    and the sound of that heartbeat
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    has always been, "I'm not racist."
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    And so what I'm trying to do with my work
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    is to really get Americans
    to eliminate the concept of "not racist"
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    from their vocabulary,
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    and realize we're either being racist
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    or anti-racist.
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    We're either expressing ideas
    that suggest certain racial groups
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    are better or worse than others,
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    superior or inferior than others.
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    We're either being racist,
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    or we're being anti-racist.
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    We're expressing notions
    that the racial groups are equals,
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    despite any cultural
    or even ethnic differences.
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    We're either supporting
    policies that are leading
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    to racial inequities and injustice,
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    like we saw in Louisville,
    where Breonna Taylor was murdered,
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    or we're supporting policies
    and pushing policies
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    that are leading to justice
    and equity for all.
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    And so I think we should be very clear
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    about whether we're
    expressing racist ideas,
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    about whether we're
    supporting racist policies,
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    and admit when we are,
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    because to be anti-racist
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    is to admit when
    we expressed a racist idea,
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    is to say, you know what?
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    When I was doing that in Central Park,
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    I was indeed being racist.
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    But I'm going to change.
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    I'm going to strive to be anti-racist.
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    And to be racist
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    is to constantly deny
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    the racial inequities
    that pervade American society,
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    to constantly deny the racist ideas
    that pervade American minds.
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    And so I want to built
    a just and equitable society,
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    and the only way we're going
    to even begin that process
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    is if we admit our racism
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    and start building an anti-racist world.
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    Thank you.
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    CS: Thank you so much for that.
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    You know, your book,
    "How To Be An Anti-Racist,"
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    has become a bestseller
    in light of what's been happening,
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    and you've been speaking a bit
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    to the ways in which
    anti-racism and racism
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    are the only two polar opposite ways
    to hold a view on racism.
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    I'm curious if you
    could talk a little bit more
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    about what the basic tenets
    of anti-racism are,
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    for people who aren't as familiar with it
    in terms of how they can be anti-racist.
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    IXK: Sure. And so I mentioned in my talk
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    that the heartbeat of racism is denial,
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    and really the heartbeat
    of anti-racism is confession,
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    is the recognition
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    that to grow up in this society
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    is to literally at some point in our lives
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    probably internalize
    ideas that are racist,
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    ideas that suggest certain racial groups
    are better or worse than others,
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    and because we believe
    in racial hierarchy,
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    because Americans have been
    systematically taught
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    that black people are more dangerous,
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    that black people are more criminal-like,
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    when we live in a society
    where black people
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    are 40 percent of the national
    incarcerated population,
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    that's going to seem normal to people.
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    When we live in a society
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    in a city like Minneapolis
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    where black people
    are 20 percent of the population
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    but more than 60 percent of the people
    being subjected to police shootings,
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    it's going to seem normal.
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    And so to be anti-racist
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    is to believe that there's nothing wrong
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    or inferior about black people
    or any other racial group.
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    There's nothing dangerous
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    about black people
    or any other racial group.
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    And so when we see these
    racial disparities all around us,
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    we see them as abnormal,
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    and then we start to figure out, OK,
    what policies are behind
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    so many black people
    being killed by police.
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    What policies are behind
    so many Latinx people
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    being disproportionately
    infected with COVID?
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    How can I be a part of the struggle
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    to upend those policies and replace them
    with more anti-racist policies?
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    Whitney Pennington Rodgers:
    And so it sounds like
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    you do make that distinction, then,
    between not racist and anti-racist.
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    I guess, could you talk a little bit
    more about that and break that down?
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    What is the difference between the two?
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    IXK: In the most simplest way,
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    a not racist is a racist who is in denial,
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    and an anti-racist is someone
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    who is willing to admit the times
    in which they are being racist,
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    and who is willing to recognize
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    the inequities and
    the racial problems of our society,
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    and who is willing to challenge
    those racial inequities
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    by challenging policy.
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    And so I'm saying this because
    literally slaveholders, slave traders,
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    imagine that their ideas
    in our terms were not racist.
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    They would say things like,
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    "Black people are the cursed
    descendants of Ham,
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    and they're cursed forever
    into enslavement."
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    This isn't, "I'm not racist."
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    This is, "God's law."
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    They would say things, like, you know,
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    "Based on science, based on ethnology,
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    based on natural history,
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    black people by nature
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    are predisposed to slavery and servility.
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    This is nature's law. I'm not racist.
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    I'm actually doing what nature
    said I'm supposed to be doing."
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    And so this construct of being not racist
    and denying one's racism
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    goes all the way back
    to the origins of this country.
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    CS: Yeah.
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    And why do you think it has been so hard
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    for some people now to still accept
    that neutrality is not enough
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    when it comes to racism?
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    IXK: I think because it takes
    a lot of work to be anti-racist.
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    You have to be very vulnerable, right?
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    You have to be willing to admit
    that you were wrong.
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    You have to be willing to admit
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    that if you have more,
    if you're white, for instance,
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    and you have more, it may not be
    because you are more.
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    You have to admit that,
    yeah, you've worked hard
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    potentially, in your life,
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    but you've also had certain advantages
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    which provided you with opportunities
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    that other people did not have.
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    You have to admit those things,
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    and it's very difficult
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    for people to be publicly,
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    or even privately, self-critical.
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    I think it's also the case of,
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    and I should have probably led with this,
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    how people define "racist."
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    And so people tend to define "racist"
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    as, like, a fixed category,
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    as an identity.
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    This is essential to who a person is.
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    Someone becomes a racist.
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    And so therefore,
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    and then they also connect a racist
    with a bad, evil person.
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    They connect a racist
    with a Ku Klux Klansman or woman.
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    And they're like,
    "I'm not in the Ku Klux Klan,
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    I'm not a bad person,
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    and I've done good things in my life.
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    I've done good things to people of color.
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    And so therefore I can't be racist.
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    I'm not that. That's not my identity.
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    But that's actually not
    how we should be defining racist.
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    Racist is a descriptive term.
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    It describes what a person
    is saying or doing in any given moment,
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    and so when a person in one moment
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    is expressing a racist idea,
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    in that moment they are being racist
    when they're saying black people are lazy.
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    If in the very next moment
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    they're appreciating the cultures
    of native people,
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    they're being anti-racist.
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    WPR: And we're going to get
    to some questions
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    from our community in a moment,
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    but I think when a lot of people hear
    this idea that you're putting forward,
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    this idea of anti-racism,
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    there's this feeling
    that this is something
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    that only concerns the white community.
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    And so could you speak a little bit
    to how the black community
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    and non-white, other ethnic minorities
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    can participate in and think about
    this idea of anti-racism?
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    IXK: Sure.
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    So if white Americans
    commonly say, "I'm not racist,"
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    people of color commonly say,
    "I can't be racist
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    because I'm a person of color."
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    And then some people of color
    say they can't be racist
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    because they have no power.
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    And so, first and foremost,
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    what I've tried to do in my work
    is to push back against this idea
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    that people of color have no power.
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    There's nothing more disempowering
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    to say, or to think, as a person of color,
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    than to say you have no power.
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    People of color have long utilized
    the most basic power
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    that every human being has,
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    and that's the power to resist
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    racist policies,
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    that's the power to resist
    a racist society.
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    But if you're a person of color,
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    and you believe that people
    coming here from Honduras and El Salvador
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    are invading this country,
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    you believe that these Latinx immigrants
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    are animals and rapists,
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    then you're certainly not,
    if you're black or Asian or native,
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    going to be a part of a struggle
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    to defend Latinx immigrants,
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    to recognize that Latinx immigrants
    have as much to give to this country
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    as any other group of people,
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    you're going to view these people
    as "taking away your jobs,"
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    and so therefore you're going
    to support racist rhetoric,
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    you're going to support racist policies,
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    and even though that is probably
    going to be harming you,
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    in other words, it's going to be harming,
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    if you're black, immigrants
    coming from Haiti and Nigeria,
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    if you're Asian, immigrants
    coming from India.
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    So I think it's critically important
    for even people of color
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    to realize they have the power to resist,
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    and when people of color
    view other people of color as the problem,
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    they're not going
    to view racism as the problem.
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    And anyone who is not viewing
    racism as the problem
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    is not being anti-racist.
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    CS: You touched on this a bit
    in your beginning talk here,
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    but you've talked about how
    racism is the reason
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    that black communities
    and communities of color
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    are systematically
    disadvantaged in America,
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    which has led to so many more deaths
    from COVID-19 in those communities.
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    And yet the media is often
    placing the blame on people of color
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    for their vulnerability to illness.
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    So I'm curious, in line with that,
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    what is the relationship
    between anti-racism
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    and the potential for systemic change?
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    IXK: I think it's a direct relationship,
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    because when you believe
    and have consumed racist ideas,
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    you're not going to be even believe
    change is necessary
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    because you're going to believe
    that racial inequality is normal.
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    Or, you're not going
    to believe change is possible.
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    In other words, you're going to believe
    that the reason why black people
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    are being killed by police
    at such high rates
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    or the reason why Latinx people
    are being infected at such high rates
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    is because there's
    something wrong with them,
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    and nothing can be changed.
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    And so you wouldn't even
    begin to even see the need
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    for systemic structural change,
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    let alone be a part of the struggle
    for systemic structural change.
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    And so, to be anti-racist, again,
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    is to recognize
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    that there's only two causes
    of racial inequity:
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    either there's something
    wrong with people,
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    or there's something wrong
    with power and policy.
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    And if you realize that there's
    nothing wrong with any group of people,
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    and I keep mentioning groups --
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    I'm not saying individuals.
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    There's certainly black individuals
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    who didn't take coronavirus seriously,
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    which is one of the reasons
    why they were infected.
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    But there are white people
    who didn't take coronavirus seriously.
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    No one has ever proven,
    actually studies have shown
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    that black people were more likely
    to take the coronavirus seriously
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    than white people.
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    We're not talking about individuals here,
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    and we certainly should not
    be individualizing groups.
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    We certainly should not be looking at
    the individual behavior
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    of one Latinx person or one black person,
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    and saying they're
    representatives of the groups.
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    That's a racist idea in and of itself.
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    And so I'm talking about groups,
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    and if you believe that groups are equals,
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    then the only other alternative,
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    the only other explanation
    to persisting inequity and injustice,
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    is power and policy.
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    And to then spend your time transforming
    and challenging power and policy
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    is to spend your time being anti-racist.
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    WPR: So we have some questions
    that are coming in from the audience.
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    First one here is from a community member
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    that asks, "When we talk
    about white privilege,
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    we talk also about the privilege
    not to have the difficult conversations.
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    Do you feel that's starting to change?
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    IXK: I hope so,
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    because I think that white Americans, too,
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    need to simultaneously recognize
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    their privileges,
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    the privileges that they have accrued
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    as a result of their whiteness,
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    and the only way in which
    they're going to be able to do that
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    is by initiating and having
    these conversations.
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    But then they also should recognize
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    that, yes, they have more,
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    white Americans have more,
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    due to racist policy,
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    but the question I think
    white Americans should be having,
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    particularly when they're having
    these conversations among themselves,
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    is, if we had a more equitable society,
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    would we have more?
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    Because what I'm asking is that, you know,
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    white Americans have more
    because of racism,
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    but there are other groups of people
    in other Western democracies
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    who have more than white Americans,
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    and then you start to ask the question,
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    why is it that people in other countries
    have free health care?
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    Why is it that they
    have paid family leave?
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    Why is it that they have
    a massive safety net?
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    Why is it that we do not?
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    And one of the major answers
    to why we do not here have is racism.
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    One of the major answers as to why
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    Donald Trump is President
    of the United States
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    is racism.
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    And so I'm not really asking
    white Americans to be altruistic
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    in order to be anti-racist.
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    We're really asking people
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    to have intelligent self-interest.
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    Those four million, I should say
    five million poor whites in 1860
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    whose poverty was the direct result
    of the riches of a few thousand
  • 17:38 - 17:43
    white slaveholding families,
  • 17:43 - 17:45
    in order to challenge slavery,
  • 17:45 - 17:47
    we weren't saying, you know,
    we need you to be altruistic.
  • 17:47 - 17:51
    No, we actually need you
    to do what's in your self-interest.
  • 17:51 - 17:56
    Those tens of millions of Americans,
    white Americans, who have lost their jobs
  • 17:56 - 17:59
    as a result of this pandemic,
  • 17:59 - 18:02
    we're not asking them to be altruistic.
  • 18:02 - 18:04
    We're asking them to realize that
    if we had a different type of government
  • 18:04 - 18:08
    with a different set of priorities,
  • 18:08 - 18:10
    then they would be
    much better off right now.
  • 18:10 - 18:15
    I'm sorry, don't get me started.
  • 18:15 - 18:19
    CS: No, we're grateful. Thank you.
  • 18:19 - 18:22
    And in line with that,
  • 18:22 - 18:27
    obviously these protests and this movement
    have led to some progress:
  • 18:27 - 18:30
    the removal of Confederate monuments,
  • 18:30 - 18:35
    the Minneapolis City Council pledging
    to dismantle the police department, etc.
  • 18:35 - 18:38
    But what do you view
    as the greatest priority
  • 18:38 - 18:42
    on a policy level as this fight
    for justice continues?
  • 18:42 - 18:45
    Are there any ways in which
    we could learn from other countries?
  • 18:46 - 18:50
    IXK: I don't actually think necessarily
  • 18:50 - 18:55
    there's a singular policy priority.
  • 18:55 - 19:04
    I mean, if someone was
    to force me to answer,
  • 19:04 - 19:06
    I would probably say two,
  • 19:06 - 19:07
    and that is,
  • 19:07 - 19:09
    high quality free health care for all,
  • 19:09 - 19:11
    and when I say high quality,
  • 19:11 - 19:15
    I'm not just talking about
    Medicare For All,
  • 19:15 - 19:19
    I'm talking about a simultaneous scenario
  • 19:19 - 19:22
    in which in rural southwest Georgia,
  • 19:22 - 19:26
    where the people are predominantly black
  • 19:26 - 19:29
    and have some of the highest
    death rates in the country,
  • 19:29 - 19:32
    those counties in southwest Georgia,
  • 19:32 - 19:32
    from COVID,
  • 19:32 - 19:35
    that they would have access to health care
  • 19:36 - 19:40
    as high quality as people do
    in Atlanta and New York City,
  • 19:40 - 19:43
    and then, simultaneously,
  • 19:43 - 19:46
    that that health care would be free.
  • 19:46 - 19:51
    So many Americans not only of course
    are dying this year of COVID
  • 19:51 - 19:54
    but also of heart disease and cancer,
  • 19:54 - 19:57
    which are the number one killers
    before COVID of Americans,
  • 19:57 - 20:00
    and they're disproportionately black.
  • 20:00 - 20:02
    And so I would say that,
  • 20:02 - 20:05
    and then secondarily,
    I would say reparations.
  • 20:05 - 20:08
    And many Americans claim
  • 20:08 - 20:13
    that they believe in racial equality,
  • 20:13 - 20:16
    they want to bring about racial equality.
  • 20:16 - 20:20
    Many Americans recognize
    just how critical economic livelihood is
  • 20:20 - 20:27
    for every person in this country,
    in this economic system.
  • 20:27 - 20:33
    But then many Americans reject
    or are not supportive of reparations.
  • 20:33 - 20:36
    And so we have a situation
  • 20:36 - 20:40
    in which white Americans
  • 20:40 - 20:41
    are, last I checked,
  • 20:41 - 20:44
    their median wealth is 10 times
    the median wealth of black Americans,
  • 20:44 - 20:48
    and according to a recent study,
  • 20:48 - 20:50
    between now and 2053,
  • 20:50 - 20:57
    white median wealth is projected to grow,
  • 20:57 - 20:59
    and this was before
    this current recession,
  • 20:59 - 21:04
    and black median wealth
  • 21:04 - 21:07
    is expected to redline at zero dollars,
  • 21:07 - 21:12
    and that, based on this current recession,
    that may be pushed up a decade.
  • 21:12 - 21:15
    And so we not only have
    a racial wealth gap,
  • 21:15 - 21:16
    but we have a racial wealth gap
  • 21:16 - 21:17
    that's growing.
  • 21:17 - 21:21
    And so for those Americans who claim
  • 21:21 - 21:24
    they are committed to racial equality
  • 21:24 - 21:26
    who also recognize the importance
    of economic livelihood
  • 21:26 - 21:31
    and who also know
    that wealth is inherited,
  • 21:31 - 21:35
    and the majority of wealth is inherited,
  • 21:35 - 21:41
    and when you think of the inheritance,
  • 21:41 - 21:42
    you're thinking of past,
  • 21:42 - 21:43
    and the past policies
  • 21:43 - 21:44
    that many Americans consider to be racist,
  • 21:44 - 21:48
    whether it's slavery or even redlining,
  • 21:48 - 21:50
    how would we even begin to close
  • 21:50 - 21:53
    this growing racial wealth gap
  • 21:53 - 21:56
    without a massive program
    like reparations?
  • 21:56 - 22:02
    WPR: Well, sort of connected to this idea
    of thinking about wealth disparity
  • 22:02 - 22:04
    and wealth inequality in this country,
  • 22:04 - 22:07
    we have a question
    from community member Dana Perls.
  • 22:07 - 22:10
    She asks, "How do you suggest
    liberal white organizations
  • 22:10 - 22:13
    effectively address problems of racism
    within the work environment,
  • 22:13 - 22:17
    particularly in environments where people
    remain silent in the face of racism
  • 22:17 - 22:21
    or make token statements
    without looking internally?
  • 22:22 - 22:23
    IXK: Sure.
  • 22:23 - 22:25
    And so I would make a few suggestions.
  • 22:25 - 22:29
    One, for several decades now,
  • 22:29 - 22:36
    every workplace has publicly pledged
  • 22:36 - 22:38
    a commitment to diversity.
  • 22:38 - 22:41
    Typically, they have diversity statements.
  • 22:41 - 22:44
    I would basically rip up
    those diversity statements
  • 22:44 - 22:45
    and write a new statement,
  • 22:45 - 22:48
    and that's a statement
    committed to anti-racism.
  • 22:48 - 22:53
    And in that statement you would
    clearly define what a racist idea is,
  • 22:54 - 22:58
    what an anti-racist idea is,
  • 22:58 - 23:01
    what a racist policy is
    and what an anti-racist policy is.
  • 23:01 - 23:03
    And you would state as a workplace
    that you're committed
  • 23:03 - 23:09
    to having a culture of anti-racist ideas
  • 23:09 - 23:13
    and having an institution
    made up of anti-racist policies.
  • 23:13 - 23:17
    And so then everybody
    can measure everyone's ideas
  • 23:17 - 23:23
    and the policies of that workplace
    based on that document.
  • 23:24 - 23:29
    And I think that that could begin
    the process of transformation.
  • 23:29 - 23:32
    I also think it's critically important
  • 23:32 - 23:39
    for workplaces to not only
    diversify their staff
  • 23:39 - 23:43
    but diversify their upper administration.
  • 23:44 - 23:47
    And I think that's
    absolutely critical as well.
  • 23:50 - 23:53
    CS: We have some more questions
    coming in from the audience.
  • 23:53 - 23:58
    We have one from Melissa Mahoney,
  • 23:58 - 24:02
    who is asking, "Donald Trump seems
    to be making supporting Black Lives Matter
  • 24:02 - 24:04
    a partisan issue,
  • 24:04 - 24:06
    for example making fun of Mitt Romney
  • 24:06 - 24:08
    for participating in a peaceful protest.
  • 24:08 - 24:11
    How do we uncouple this
    to make it nonpartisan?"
  • 24:12 - 24:20
    IXK: Well, I mean, I think that
    to say the lives of black people
  • 24:20 - 24:24
    is a Democratic declaration
  • 24:24 - 24:26
    is simultaneously stating
  • 24:26 - 24:30
    that Republicans do not value black life.
  • 24:31 - 24:36
    If that's essentially what Donald Trump
    is saying, if he's stating,
  • 24:36 - 24:42
    that there's a problem
    with marching for black lives,
  • 24:43 - 24:44
    then what is the solution?
  • 24:44 - 24:48
    The solution is not marching.
    What's the other alternative?
  • 24:48 - 24:51
    The other alternative
    is not marching for black lives.
  • 24:51 - 24:54
    The other alternative is not caring
    when black people die of police violence
  • 24:54 - 24:56
    or COVID.
  • 24:56 - 25:03
    And so to me, the way in which
    we make this a nonpartisan issue
  • 25:03 - 25:04
    is to strike back
  • 25:04 - 25:07
    or argue back in that way,
  • 25:07 - 25:09
    and obviously Republicans
    are going to claim
  • 25:09 - 25:11
    they're not saying that,
  • 25:11 - 25:13
    but it's a very simple thing:
  • 25:13 - 25:15
    either you believe black lives matter
  • 25:15 - 25:16
    or you don't,
  • 25:16 - 25:18
    and if you believe black lives matter
  • 25:18 - 25:20
    because you believe in human rights,
  • 25:20 - 25:25
    then you believe in the human right
    for black people and all people to live
  • 25:25 - 25:29
    and to not have to fear police violence
  • 25:29 - 25:32
    and not have to fear the state
  • 25:32 - 25:36
    and not have to fear
    that a peaceful protest
  • 25:36 - 25:37
    is going to be broken up
  • 25:37 - 25:40
    because a politician wants
    to get a campaign op,
  • 25:40 - 25:44
    then you're going to institute
    policy that shows it.
  • 25:44 - 25:46
    Or, you're not.
  • 25:46 - 25:48
    WPR: So I want to ask a question
  • 25:49 - 25:54
    just about how people
    can think about anti-racism
  • 25:54 - 25:56
    and how they can actually
    bring this into their lives.
  • 25:56 - 25:59
    I imagine that a lot of folks,
  • 25:59 - 26:00
    they hear this and they're like,
  • 26:00 - 26:02
    oh, you know, I have to be
    really thoughtful
  • 26:02 - 26:05
    about how my actions and my words
  • 26:05 - 26:07
    are perceived.
  • 26:07 - 26:10
    What is the perceived intention
    behind what it is I'm saying,
  • 26:10 - 26:14
    and that that may feel exhausting,
  • 26:14 - 26:17
    and I think that connects
    even to this idea of policy.
  • 26:17 - 26:18
    And so I'm curious.
  • 26:18 - 26:20
    There is a huge element of thoughtfulness
  • 26:20 - 26:22
    that comes along
  • 26:22 - 26:23
    with this work of being anti-racist.
  • 26:24 - 26:28
    And what is your reaction and response
    to those who feel concerned
  • 26:28 - 26:32
    about the mental exhaustion
    with having to constantly think
  • 26:32 - 26:36
    about how your actions
    may hurt or harm others?
  • 26:38 - 26:45
    IXK: So I think part of the concern
    that people have about mental exhaustion
  • 26:45 - 26:50
    is this idea
  • 26:50 - 26:52
    that they don't ever
    want to make a mistake,
  • 26:52 - 26:57
    and I think to be anti-racist
  • 26:57 - 27:00
    is to make mistakes,
  • 27:00 - 27:03
    and is to recognize
    when we make a mistake.
  • 27:04 - 27:09
    For us, what's critical
    is to have those very clear definitions
  • 27:09 - 27:13
    so that we can assess our words,
  • 27:13 - 27:15
    we can assess our deeds,
  • 27:15 - 27:18
    and when we make a mistake,
    we just own up to it and say,
  • 27:18 - 27:20
    you know, that was a racist idea.
  • 27:20 - 27:24
    You know what, I was supporting
    a racist policy, but I'm going to change.
  • 27:24 - 27:28
    The other thing I think
    is important for us to realize
  • 27:28 - 27:31
    is in many ways
  • 27:31 - 27:34
    we are addicted,
  • 27:34 - 27:38
    and when I say we, individuals
    and certainly this country,
  • 27:38 - 27:41
    is addicted to racism,
  • 27:42 - 27:45
    and that's one of the reasons why
  • 27:45 - 27:48
    for so many people
    they're just in denial.
  • 27:48 - 27:51
    People usually deny their addictions.
  • 27:51 - 27:56
    But then, once we realize
    that we have this addiction,
  • 27:56 - 27:59
    everyone who has been addicted,
  • 27:59 - 28:02
    you know, you talk
    to friends and family members
  • 28:02 - 28:05
    who are overcoming an addiction
    to substance abuse,
  • 28:05 - 28:07
    they're not going to say
  • 28:07 - 28:10
    that they're just healed,
  • 28:10 - 28:14
    that they don't have
    to think about this regularly.
  • 28:14 - 28:17
    Someone who is
    overcoming alcoholism
  • 28:17 - 28:22
    is going to say, you know,
    this is a day-by-day process,
  • 28:22 - 28:28
    and I take it day by day
  • 28:28 - 28:29
    and moment by moment,
  • 28:29 - 28:31
    and yes, it's difficult
  • 28:31 - 28:35
    to restrain myself
  • 28:35 - 28:40
    from reverting back
    to what I'm addicted to,
  • 28:40 - 28:42
    but at the same time it's liberating,
  • 28:42 - 28:43
    it's freeing,
  • 28:43 - 28:46
    because I'm no longer
    having to wallow in that addiction.
  • 28:46 - 28:49
    And so I think, and I'm no longer
    having to hurt people
  • 28:49 - 28:52
    due to my addiction.
  • 28:52 - 28:53
    And I think that's critical.
  • 28:53 - 28:57
    We spend too much time
    thinking about how we feel
  • 28:57 - 29:02
    and less time thinking about how
    our actions and ideas make others feel.
  • 29:02 - 29:06
    And I think that's one thing
    that the George Floyd video
  • 29:06 - 29:08
    forced Americans to do
  • 29:08 - 29:11
    was to really see and hear, especially,
  • 29:11 - 29:14
    how someone feels
  • 29:14 - 29:16
    as a result of their racism.
  • 29:20 - 29:24
    CS: We have another question
    from the audience.
  • 29:24 - 29:27
    This one is asking about,
  • 29:27 - 29:28
    "Can you speak to the intersectionality
  • 29:28 - 29:32
    between the work of anti-racism,
    feminism and gay rights?
  • 29:32 - 29:35
    How does the work of anti-racism
    relate and affect the work
  • 29:35 - 29:37
    of these other human rights issues?"
  • 29:38 - 29:40
    IXK: Sure.
  • 29:40 - 29:44
    So I define a racist idea
  • 29:44 - 29:50
    as any idea that suggests
    a racial group is superior
  • 29:50 - 29:53
    or inferior to another
    racial group in any way.
  • 29:53 - 29:56
    And I use the term racial group
  • 29:56 - 29:58
    as opposed to race
  • 29:58 - 30:05
    because every race is a collection
    of racialized intersectional groups,
  • 30:05 - 30:08
    and so you have black women and black men
  • 30:08 - 30:13
    and you have black heterosexuals
    and black queer people,
  • 30:13 - 30:19
    just as you have Latinx women
    and white women and Asian men,
  • 30:19 - 30:23
    and what's critical for us to understand
  • 30:23 - 30:25
    is there hasn't just been racist ideas
  • 30:25 - 30:29
    that have targeted,
    let's say, black people.
  • 30:29 - 30:34
    There has been racist ideas
    that have been developed
  • 30:34 - 30:35
    and targeted black women,
  • 30:35 - 30:36
    that have targeted black Lesbians,
  • 30:36 - 30:38
    that have targeted
    black transgender women.
  • 30:38 - 30:44
    And oftentimes these racist ideas
    targeting these intersectional groups
  • 30:44 - 30:47
    are intersecting with
    other forms of bigotry
  • 30:47 - 30:49
    that is also targeting these groups.
  • 30:49 - 30:52
    To give an example about black women,
  • 30:52 - 30:57
    one of the oldest racist ideas
    about black women
  • 30:57 - 30:59
    was this idea that they're inferior women
  • 30:59 - 31:02
    or that they're not even women at all,
  • 31:02 - 31:05
    and that they're inferior to white women,
  • 31:05 - 31:08
    who are the pinnacle of womenhood.
  • 31:08 - 31:12
    And that idea has intersected
  • 31:12 - 31:14
    with this sexist idea
  • 31:14 - 31:17
    that suggests that women are weak,
  • 31:17 - 31:20
    that the more weak a person is,
    a woman is, the more woman she is,
  • 31:20 - 31:28
    and the stronger a woman is,
    the more masculine she is.
  • 31:28 - 31:31
    These two ideas have intersected
  • 31:31 - 31:35
    to constantly degrade black women
  • 31:35 - 31:41
    as this idea of the strong,
    black masculine woman
  • 31:41 - 31:46
    who is inferior to the weak, white woman.
  • 31:46 - 31:49
    And so the only way
    to really understand these constructs
  • 31:49 - 31:53
    of a weak, super-feminine white woman
  • 31:53 - 31:55
    and a strong, hyper-masculine black woman
  • 31:56 - 31:58
    is to understand sexist ideas,
  • 31:58 - 32:01
    is to reject sexist ideas,
  • 32:01 - 32:05
    and I'll say very quickly,
    the same goes for the intersection
  • 32:05 - 32:07
    of racism and homophobia,
  • 32:07 - 32:11
    in which black queer people
    have been subjected to this idea
  • 32:11 - 32:13
    that they are more hypersexual
  • 32:13 - 32:17
    because there's this idea of queer people
  • 32:17 - 32:20
    as being more hypersexual
    than heterosexuals.
  • 32:20 - 32:22
    And so black queer people have been tagged
  • 32:22 - 32:25
    as more hypersexual
    than white queer people
  • 32:26 - 32:28
    and black heterosexuals.
  • 32:28 - 32:32
    And you can't really see that
    and understand that and reject that
  • 32:32 - 32:36
    if you're not rejecting and understanding
    and challenging homophobia too.
  • 32:38 - 32:41
    WPR: And to this point of challenging,
  • 32:41 - 32:44
    we have another question
    from Maryam Mohit in our community,
  • 32:44 - 32:48
    who asks, "How do you see cancel culture
    and anti-racism interacting.
  • 32:48 - 32:52
    For example, when someone
    did something obviously racist in the past
  • 32:52 - 32:53
    and it comes to light?"
  • 32:54 - 32:56
    How do we respond to that?
  • 32:56 - 32:57
    IXK: Wow.
  • 32:57 - 33:00
    So I think it's very, very complex.
  • 33:01 - 33:08
    I do obviously encourage people
    to transform themselves,
  • 33:08 - 33:13
    to change, to admit those times
    in which they were being racist,
  • 33:13 - 33:17
    and so obviously we as a community
  • 33:17 - 33:20
    have to give people
    that ability to do that.
  • 33:20 - 33:25
    We can't, when someone admits
    that they were being racist,
  • 33:26 - 33:29
    we can't immediately
    obviously cancel them.
  • 33:29 - 33:31
    But I also think
  • 33:31 - 33:34
    that there are people
  • 33:34 - 33:37
    who do something so egregious
  • 33:37 - 33:42
    and there are people who are so unwilling
  • 33:42 - 33:48
    to recognize how egregious
    what they just did is,
  • 33:48 - 33:50
    so in a particular moment,
  • 33:50 - 33:54
    so not just the horrible, vicious act,
  • 33:54 - 34:01
    but then on top of that the refusal
    to even admit the horrible, vicious act.
  • 34:01 - 34:07
    In that case, I could see how people
    would literally want to cancel them,
  • 34:07 - 34:14
    and I think that we have to,
    on the other hand,
  • 34:14 - 34:17
    we have to have some sort of consequence,
  • 34:17 - 34:21
    public consequence, cultural consequence,
  • 34:21 - 34:23
    for people acting in a racist manner,
  • 34:23 - 34:26
    especially in an extremely egregious way.
  • 34:26 - 34:28
    And for many people, they've decided,
  • 34:28 - 34:30
    you know what, I'm just
    going to cancel folks.
  • 34:30 - 34:32
    And I'm not going
    to necessarily critique them,
  • 34:32 - 34:34
    but I do think we should try
    to figure out a way
  • 34:34 - 34:42
    to discern those who are refusing
    to transform themselves
  • 34:43 - 34:46
    and those who made a mistake
    and recognized it
  • 34:46 - 34:49
    and truly are committed
    to transforming themselves.
  • 34:50 - 34:53
    CS: Yeah, I mean,
  • 34:53 - 34:57
    one of the concerns many activists
    have been expressing
  • 34:57 - 35:00
    is that the energy behind
    the Black Lives Matter movement
  • 35:00 - 35:01
    has to stay high
  • 35:01 - 35:03
    for anti-racist change
    to truly take place.
  • 35:03 - 35:06
    I think that applies
    to what you just said as well.
  • 35:06 - 35:10
    And I guess I'm curious
    what your opinion is
  • 35:10 - 35:12
    on when the protests start to wane
  • 35:12 - 35:17
    and people's donation-matching campaigns
    fade into the background,
  • 35:17 - 35:20
    how can we all ensure
    that this conversation
  • 35:20 - 35:23
    about anti-racism stays central?
  • 35:24 - 35:27
    IXK: Sure.
  • 35:27 - 35:28
    So in "How To Be An Anti-Racist,"
  • 35:28 - 35:30
    in one of the final chapters,
  • 35:30 - 35:33
    is this chapter called "Failure."
  • 35:33 - 35:37
    I talked about what I call
    feelings advocacy,
  • 35:37 - 35:43
    and this is people feeling bad
    about what's happening,
  • 35:43 - 35:47
    what happened to George Floyd
  • 35:47 - 35:51
    or what happened to Ahmaud Arbery
    or what happened to Breonna Taylor.
  • 35:51 - 35:56
    They just feel bad about this country
    and where this country is headed.
  • 35:56 - 35:59
    And so the way
    they go about feeling better
  • 36:00 - 36:04
    is by coming to a demonstration.
  • 36:04 - 36:06
    The way they go about feeling better
  • 36:06 - 36:09
    is by donating to
    a particular organization.
  • 36:09 - 36:13
    The way they go about feeling better
  • 36:13 - 36:14
    is reading a book.
  • 36:14 - 36:19
    And so if this what
    many Americans are doing,
  • 36:19 - 36:22
    then once they feel better,
  • 36:22 - 36:27
    in other words once the individual
    feels better through their participation
  • 36:27 - 36:30
    in book clubs or demonstrations
  • 36:30 - 36:33
    or donation campaigns,
  • 36:33 - 36:37
    then nothing is going to change
    except, what, their own feelings.
  • 36:37 - 36:40
    And so we need to move past our feelings.
  • 36:40 - 36:44
    And this isn't to say
    that people shouldn't feel bad,
  • 36:44 - 36:48
    but we should use our feelings,
  • 36:48 - 36:51
    how horrible we feel
    about what is going on,
  • 36:52 - 36:56
    to put into place, put into practice,
  • 36:56 - 37:01
    anti-racist power and policies.
  • 37:01 - 37:04
    In other words, our feelings
    should be driving us.
  • 37:04 - 37:08
    They shouldn't be the end all.
  • 37:08 - 37:10
    This should not be about
    making us feel better.
  • 37:10 - 37:12
    This should be about
    transforming this country,
  • 37:12 - 37:16
    and we need to keep our eyes
    on transforming this country,
  • 37:16 - 37:18
    because if we don't,
  • 37:18 - 37:21
    then once people feel better
    after this is all over,
  • 37:21 - 37:24
    then we'll be back to the same situation
    of being horrified by another video,
  • 37:24 - 37:28
    and then feeling bad,
  • 37:28 - 37:30
    and then the cycle will only continue.
  • 37:32 - 37:35
    WPR: You know, I think
    when we think about
  • 37:35 - 37:36
    what sort of changes we can implement
  • 37:36 - 37:40
    and how we could
    make the system work better,
  • 37:40 - 37:43
    make our governments work better,
  • 37:43 - 37:47
    make our police work better,
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    are there models in other countries
  • 37:48 - 37:50
    where, obviously the history
    in the United States is really unique
  • 37:50 - 37:53
    in terms of thinking about
    race and oppression.
  • 37:53 - 37:58
    But when you look to other nations
    and other cultures,
  • 37:58 - 38:00
    are there other models
    that you look at as examples
  • 38:00 - 38:03
    that we could potentially implement here?
  • 38:06 - 38:09
    IXK: I mean, there are so many.
  • 38:09 - 38:15
    There are countries in which
    police officers don't wear weapons.
  • 38:15 - 38:19
    There are countries
  • 38:19 - 38:23
    who have more people
    than the United States
  • 38:23 - 38:28
    but less prisoners.
  • 38:28 - 38:29
    There are countries
  • 38:29 - 38:31
    who try to fight violent crime
  • 38:31 - 38:33
    not with more police and prisons
  • 38:33 - 38:35
    but with more jobs and more opportunities,
  • 38:35 - 38:41
    because they know and see
    that the communities
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    with the highest levels of violent crime
  • 38:43 - 38:46
    tend to be communities
    with high levels of poverty
  • 38:46 - 38:48
    and long-term unemployment.
  • 38:49 - 38:53
    And then, obviously,
  • 38:53 - 38:57
    other countries provide pretty sizable
    social safety nets for people
  • 38:57 - 39:03
    such that people are not
    committing crimes out of poverty,
  • 39:03 - 39:06
    such that people are not
    committing crimes out of despair.
  • 39:08 - 39:11
    And so I think that
    it's critically important for us
  • 39:11 - 39:12
    to first and foremost
  • 39:12 - 39:18
    think through, OK, if there's
    nothing wrong with the people,
  • 39:18 - 39:23
    then how can we go about
    reducing police violence?
  • 39:23 - 39:27
    How can we go about
    reducing racial health inequities?
  • 39:27 - 39:31
    What policies can we change?
    What policies have worked?
  • 39:31 - 39:35
    These are the types of questions
    we need to be asking,
  • 39:35 - 39:38
    because there's never really
    been anything wrong with the people.
  • 39:41 - 39:42
    CS: In your "Atlantic" piece
  • 39:42 - 39:44
    called "Who Gets To Be
    Afraid in America," you wrote,
  • 39:44 - 39:48
    "What I am, a black male,
    should not matter.
  • 39:48 - 39:50
    Who I am should matter."
  • 39:50 - 39:54
    And I feel that's kind of
    what you're saying,
  • 39:54 - 39:56
    that in other places
    maybe that's more possible,
  • 39:56 - 39:58
    and I'm curious when you imagine
  • 39:58 - 40:01
    a country in which
    who you are mattered first,
  • 40:01 - 40:05
    what does that look like?
  • 40:05 - 40:11
    IXK: Well, what it looks like
    for me as a black American
  • 40:11 - 40:18
    is that people do not view me as dangerous
    and thereby make my existence dangerous.
  • 40:18 - 40:24
    It allows me to walk around this country
  • 40:24 - 40:28
    and to not believe that people
    are going to fear me
  • 40:28 - 40:29
    because of the color my skin.
  • 40:29 - 40:32
    It allows me to believe, you know what,
  • 40:32 - 40:35
    I didn't get that job because
    I could have done better on my interview,
  • 40:35 - 40:37
    not because of the color of my skin.
  • 40:37 - 40:41
    It allows me to --
  • 40:41 - 40:43
    a country where there's racial equity,
  • 40:43 - 40:45
    a country where there's racial justice,
  • 40:45 - 40:48
    a country where there's
    shared opportunity,
  • 40:49 - 40:55
    a country where African American culture
    and Native American culture
  • 40:55 - 40:59
    and the cultures of Mexican Americans
  • 40:59 - 41:03
    and Korean Americans
    are all valued equally,
  • 41:03 - 41:09
    that no one is being asked to assimilate
    into white American culture.
  • 41:09 - 41:13
    There's no such thing
    as standard professional wear.
  • 41:13 - 41:15
    There's no such thing as, well,
    you need to learn how to speak English
  • 41:15 - 41:19
    in order to be an American.
  • 41:19 - 41:25
    And we would truly not only have
    equity and justice for all
  • 41:25 - 41:29
    but we would somehow have found a way
  • 41:29 - 41:31
    to appreciate difference,
  • 41:31 - 41:37
    to appreciate all of the human
    ethnic and cultural difference
  • 41:37 - 41:39
    that exists in the United States.
  • 41:39 - 41:43
    This is what could make
    this country great,
  • 41:43 - 41:48
    in which we literally become a country
  • 41:48 - 41:53
    where you could literally
    travel around this country
  • 41:53 - 41:54
    and learn about cultures
    from all over the world
  • 41:54 - 41:55
    and appreciate those cultures,
  • 41:55 - 41:58
    and understand even your own culture
  • 41:58 - 42:01
    from what other people are doing.
  • 42:01 - 42:05
    There's so much beauty here
    amid all this pain
  • 42:05 - 42:09
    and I just want to peel away
  • 42:09 - 42:11
    and remove away
  • 42:11 - 42:14
    all of those scabs of racist policies
  • 42:14 - 42:16
    so that people can heal
  • 42:16 - 42:18
    and so that we can see true beauty.
  • 42:19 - 42:24
    WPR: And Ibram, when you think
    about this moment,
  • 42:24 - 42:26
    where do you see them on [?]
    of progress towards reaching
  • 42:26 - 42:28
    that true beauty?
  • 42:30 - 42:32
    IXK: Well, I think, for me,
  • 42:32 - 42:37
    I always see progress
    and resistance in demonstrations
  • 42:37 - 42:43
    and know just because people
    are calling from town squares
  • 42:43 - 42:45
    and from city halls
  • 42:45 - 42:50
    for progressive, systemic change
    that that change is here,
  • 42:51 - 42:52
    but people are calling
  • 42:52 - 42:56
    and people are calling
    in small towns, in big cities,
  • 42:56 - 42:59
    and people are calling
    from places we've heard of
  • 42:59 - 43:01
    and places we need to have heard of.
  • 43:01 - 43:04
    People are calling for change,
    and people are fed up.
  • 43:04 - 43:06
    I mean, we're living in a time
  • 43:06 - 43:09
    in which we're facing a viral pandemic,
  • 43:09 - 43:12
    a racial pandemic
    within that viral pandemic
  • 43:12 - 43:16
    of people of color disproportionately
    being infected and dying,
  • 43:16 - 43:18
    even an economic pandemic
  • 43:18 - 43:24
    with over 40 million Americans
    having lost their jobs,
  • 43:24 - 43:28
    and certainly this pandemic
    of police violence,
  • 43:28 - 43:31
    and then people demonstrating
    against police violence
  • 43:31 - 43:34
    only to suffer police violence
    at demonstrations.
  • 43:34 - 43:38
    I mean, people see
    there's a fundamental problem here,
  • 43:38 - 43:40
    and there's a problem that can be solved.
  • 43:40 - 43:43
    There's an America that can be created,
  • 43:43 - 43:45
    and people are calling for this,
  • 43:45 - 43:47
    and that is always the beginning.
  • 43:47 - 43:49
    The beginning is what
    we're experiencing now.
  • 43:52 - 43:54
    CS: I think that
    this next audience question
  • 43:54 - 43:57
    follows well from that, which is,
  • 43:57 - 43:59
    "What gives you hope right now?"
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    IXK: So certainly resistance to racism
    has always given me hope,
  • Not Synced
    and so even if, let's say,
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    six months ago we were not in a time
    in which almost every night
  • Not Synced
    all over this country people
    were demonstrating against racism,
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    but I could just look to history
  • Not Synced
    when people were resisting.
  • Not Synced
    And so resistance always brings me hope,
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    because it is always resistance,
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    and of course it's stormy,
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    but the rainbow is typically
    on the other side.
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    But I also receive hope philosophically,
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    because I know that in order
    to bring about change,
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    we have to believe in change.
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    There's just no way
    a change maker can be cynical.
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    It's impossible.
  • Not Synced
    So I know I have to believe in change
  • Not Synced
    in order to bring it about.
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    WPR: And we have another question here
  • Not Synced
    which addresses some of the things
    you talked about before
  • Not Synced
    in terms of the structural change
    that we need to bring about.
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    From Maryam Mohit: "In terms of putting
    into practice the transformative policies,
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    is then the most important thing
    to loudly vote the right people
  • Not Synced
    into office at every level who can make
    those structural changes happen?"
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    IXK: So I think that that is part of it.
  • Not Synced
    I certainly think we should
    vote into office
  • Not Synced
    people who, from school boards
    to the President of the United States,
  • Not Synced
    people who are committed
  • Not Synced
    to instituting anti-racist policies
  • Not Synced
    that lead to equity and justice,
  • Not Synced
    and I think that
    that's critically important,
  • Not Synced
    but I don't think
  • Not Synced
    that we should think that that's
    the only that we should focused on
  • Not Synced
    or the only thing that we should be doing.
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    And there are institutions,
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    there are neighborhoods,
  • Not Synced
    that need to be transformed,
  • Not Synced
    that are to a certain extent
  • Not Synced
    outside of the purview of a policymaker
  • Not Synced
    who is an elected official.
  • Not Synced
    There are administrators
    and CEOs and presidents
  • Not Synced
    who have the power to transform policies
  • Not Synced
    within their spheres,
    within their institutions,
  • Not Synced
    and so we should be focused there.
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    The last thing I'll say about voting is,
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    I wrote a series of pieces
    for "The Atlantic" early this year
  • Not Synced
    that sought to get Americans
    thinking about who I call
  • Not Synced
    "the other swing voter,"
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    and not the traditional swing voter
    who swings from Republican to Democrat
  • Not Synced
    who are primarily older and white.
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    I'm talking about the people
    who swing from voting Democrat
  • Not Synced
    to not voting at all.
  • Not Synced
    And these people are typically younger
  • Not Synced
    and they're typically people of color,
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    but they're especially
    young people of color,
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    especially young black
    and Latinx Americans.
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    And so we should view these people,
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    these young, black and Latino voters
  • Not Synced
    who are trying to decide
    whether to vote as swing voters
  • Not Synced
    in the way we view these people
  • Not Synced
    who are trying to decide between
    whether to vote for, let's say,
  • Not Synced
    Trump or Biden in the general election.
  • Not Synced
    In other words, to view
    them both as swing voters
  • Not Synced
    is to view them both in a way that,
    OK, we need to persuade these people.
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    They're not political cattle.
  • Not Synced
    We're not just going to turn them out.
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    We need to encourage and persuade them,
  • Not Synced
    and then we also
    for these other swing voters
  • Not Synced
    need to make it easier for them to vote,
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    and typically these young people of color,
    it's the hardest for them to vote
  • Not Synced
    because of voter suppression policies.
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    CS: Thank you, Ibram.
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    Well, we're going to come
    to a close of this interview,
  • Not Synced
    but I would love to ask you
  • Not Synced
    to read something that you wrote
  • Not Synced
    a couple of days ago on Instagram.
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    You wrote this beautiful caption
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    on a photo of your daughter,
  • Not Synced
    and I'm wondering if you'd be willing
    to share that with us
  • Not Synced
    and briefly tell us how we could each
    take this perspective into our own lives.
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    IXK: Sure, so yeah,
  • Not Synced
    I posted a picture of
    my four-year old daughter [?],
  • Not Synced
    and in the caption I wrote,
  • Not Synced
    "I love, and because I love, I resist.
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    There have been many theories
  • Not Synced
    on what's fueling the growing
    demonstrations against racism
  • Not Synced
    in public and private.
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    Let me offer another one: love.
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    We love.
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    We know the lives of our loved ones,
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    especially our black loved ones,
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    are in danger
  • Not Synced
    under the violence of racism.
  • Not Synced
    People ask me all the time what fuels me.
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    It is the same: love,
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    love of this little girl,
  • Not Synced
    love of all the little and big people
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    who I want to live full lives
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    in the fullness of their humanity,
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    not barred by racist policies,
  • Not Synced
    not degraded by racist ideas,
  • Not Synced
    not terrorized by racist violence.
  • Not Synced
    Let us be anti-racist.
  • Not Synced
    Let us defend life.
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    Let us defend our human rights
    to live and live fully,
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    because we love."
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    And, you know, Cloe,
    I just wanted to sort of emphasize
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    that at the heart of being anti-racist
  • Not Synced
    is love,
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    is loving one's country,
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    loving one's humanity,
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    loving one's relatives
    and family and friends,
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    and certainly loving oneself.
  • Not Synced
    And consider love to be a verb.
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    I consider love to be,
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    I'm helping another, and even myself,
  • Not Synced
    to constantly grow
    into a better form of myself,
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    of themselves, that they've expressed
    who they want to be.
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    And so to love this country
    and to love humanity
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    is to push humanity constructively
  • Not Synced
    to be a better form of itself,
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    and there's no way
    we're going to be a better form,
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    there's no way we can build
    a better humanity,
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    while we still have on
    the shackles of racism.
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    WPR: I think that's so beautiful.
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    I appreciate everything you've shared.
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    I feel like I've made it really clear,
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    this is not an easy fix. Right?
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    There is no band-aid option here
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    that will make this go away,
    that this takes work from all of us,
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    and I really appreciate all of the honesty
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    and thoughtfulness that
    you've brought to this today.
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    IXK: You're welcome.
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    Thank you so much for having
    this conversation with me.
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    CS: Thank you so much, Ibram.
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    We're really grateful to you
    for joining us.
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    IXK: Thank you.
Title:
The difference between being "not racist" and antiracist
Speaker:
Ibram X. Kendi
Description:

more » « less
Video Language:
English
Team:
closed TED
Project:
TEDTalks
Duration:
51:14

English subtitles

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