The ethical dilemma of designer babies
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0:01 - 0:03So what if I could make for you
-
0:03 - 0:05a designer baby?
-
0:06 - 0:08What if you as a parent-to-be
-
0:08 - 0:12and I as a scientist decided
to go down that road together? -
0:14 - 0:15What if we didn't?
-
0:15 - 0:18What if we thought, "That's a bad idea,"
-
0:18 - 0:21but many of our family,
friends and coworkers -
0:22 - 0:23did make that decision?
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0:24 - 0:28Let's fast-forward just 15 years from now.
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0:28 - 0:31Let's pretend it's the year 2030,
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0:31 - 0:32and you're a parent.
-
0:33 - 0:36You have your daughter,
Marianne, next to you, -
0:36 - 0:39and in 2030, she is what we call a natural
-
0:39 - 0:42because she has no genetic modifications.
-
0:43 - 0:47And because you and your partner
consciously made that decision, -
0:47 - 0:51many in your social circle,
they kind of look down on you. -
0:51 - 0:54They think you're, like,
a Luddite or a technophobe. -
0:56 - 0:58Marianne's best friend Jenna,
who lives right next door, -
0:59 - 1:00is a very different story.
-
1:01 - 1:07She was born a genetically modified
designer baby with numerous upgrades. -
1:09 - 1:10Yeah. Upgrades.
-
1:11 - 1:14And these enhancements were introduced
-
1:14 - 1:16using a new genetic
modification technology -
1:16 - 1:19that goes by the funny name CRISPR,
-
1:19 - 1:21you know, like something's crisp,
-
1:21 - 1:22this is CRISPR.
-
1:24 - 1:27The scientist that Jenna's parents
hired to do this -
1:27 - 1:29for several million dollars
-
1:30 - 1:33introduced CRISPR
into a whole panel of human embryos. -
1:34 - 1:36And then they used genetic testing,
-
1:36 - 1:40and they predicted that
that little tiny embryo, Jenna's embryo, -
1:40 - 1:42would be the best of the bunch.
-
1:43 - 1:47And now, Jenna is an actual, real person.
-
1:47 - 1:50She's sitting on the carpet
in your living room -
1:50 - 1:52playing with your daughter Marianne.
-
1:53 - 1:56And your families have known
each other for years now, -
1:56 - 1:59and it's become very clear to you
-
1:59 - 2:01that Jenna is extraordinary.
-
2:01 - 2:03She's incredibly intelligent.
-
2:03 - 2:06If you're honest with yourself,
she's smarter than you, -
2:07 - 2:08and she's five years old.
-
2:09 - 2:13She's beautiful, tall, athletic,
-
2:13 - 2:15and the list goes on and on.
-
2:16 - 2:19And in fact, there's
a whole new generation -
2:19 - 2:21of these GM kids like Jenna.
-
2:22 - 2:24And so far it looks like
-
2:24 - 2:26they're healthier
than their parents' generation, -
2:26 - 2:28than your generation.
-
2:28 - 2:30And they have lower health care costs.
-
2:32 - 2:35They're immune to a host
of health conditions, -
2:35 - 2:38including HIV/AIDS and genetic diseases.
-
2:39 - 2:41It all sounds so great,
-
2:41 - 2:44but you can't help but have
this sort of unsettling feeling, -
2:45 - 2:50a gut feeling, that there's something
just not quite right about Jenna, -
2:50 - 2:54and you've had the same feeling
about other GM kids that you've met. -
2:55 - 2:58You were also reading
in the newspaper earlier this week -
2:59 - 3:02that a study of these children
who were born as designer babies -
3:02 - 3:04indicates they may have some issues,
-
3:04 - 3:08like increased aggressiveness
and narcissism. -
3:10 - 3:11But more immediately on your mind
-
3:11 - 3:15is some news that you just got
from Jenna's family. -
3:15 - 3:17She's so smart,
-
3:17 - 3:20she's now going to be going
to a special school, -
3:20 - 3:22a different school
than your daughter Marianne, -
3:22 - 3:26and this is kind of throwing
your family into a disarray. -
3:26 - 3:27Marianne's been crying,
-
3:27 - 3:31and last night when you took her to bed
to kiss her goodnight, -
3:31 - 3:35she said, "Daddy, will Jenna
even be my friend anymore?" -
3:36 - 3:40So now, as I've been telling you
this imagined 2030 story, -
3:40 - 3:43I have a feeling
that I may have put some of you -
3:43 - 3:45into this sci-fi
frame of reference. Right? -
3:45 - 3:48You think you're reading a sci-fi book.
-
3:48 - 3:51Or maybe, like,
in Halloween mode of thinking. -
3:51 - 3:53But this is really
a possible reality for us, -
3:53 - 3:55just 15 years from now.
-
3:55 - 3:58I'm a stem cell and genetics researcher
-
3:58 - 4:01and I can see this new CRISPR technology
-
4:01 - 4:03and its potential impact.
-
4:04 - 4:07And we may find ourselves in that reality,
-
4:07 - 4:10and a lot will depend
on what we decide to do today. -
4:12 - 4:14And if you're still
kind of thinking in sci-fi mode, -
4:14 - 4:19consider that the world of science
had a huge shock earlier this year, -
4:19 - 4:22and the public largely
doesn't even know about it. -
4:22 - 4:25Researchers in China just a few months ago
-
4:25 - 4:29reported the creation
of genetically modified human embryos. -
4:29 - 4:32This was the first time in history.
-
4:32 - 4:35And they did it using
this new CRISPR technology. -
4:36 - 4:37It didn't work perfectly,
-
4:37 - 4:41but I still think
they sort of cracked the door ajar -
4:41 - 4:43on a Pandora's box here.
-
4:44 - 4:47And I think some people
are going to run with this technology -
4:47 - 4:49and try to make designer babies.
-
4:50 - 4:53Now, before I go on, some of you
may hold up your hands and say, -
4:53 - 4:56"Stop, Paul, wait a minute.
-
4:56 - 4:57Wouldn't that be illegal?
-
4:57 - 5:01You can't just go off
and create a designer baby." -
5:02 - 5:04And in fact, to some extent, you're right.
-
5:04 - 5:06In some countries, you couldn't do that.
-
5:07 - 5:10But in many other countries,
including my country, the US, -
5:10 - 5:14there's actually no law on this,
so in theory, you could do it. -
5:15 - 5:19And there was another development
this year that resonates in this area, -
5:19 - 5:22and that happened
not so far from here over in the UK. -
5:22 - 5:26And the UK traditionally
has been the strictest country -
5:26 - 5:28when it comes to human
genetic modification. -
5:28 - 5:30It was illegal there,
-
5:30 - 5:32but just a few months ago,
-
5:32 - 5:34they carved out an exception to that rule.
-
5:34 - 5:36They passed a new law
-
5:36 - 5:39allowing the creation
of genetically modified humans -
5:40 - 5:44with the noble goal of trying
to prevent a rare kind of genetic disease. -
5:44 - 5:48But still I think in combination
these events are pushing us -
5:48 - 5:51further towards an acceptance
-
5:51 - 5:53of human genetic modification.
-
5:54 - 5:57So I've been talking
about this CRISPR technology. -
5:57 - 5:59What actually is CRISPR?
-
5:59 - 6:03So if you think about the GMOs
that we're all more familiar with, -
6:03 - 6:06like GMO tomatoes and wheat
-
6:06 - 6:08and things like that,
-
6:08 - 6:11this technology
is similar to the technologies -
6:11 - 6:12that were used to make those,
-
6:12 - 6:15but it's dramatically better,
-
6:15 - 6:17cheaper and faster.
-
6:18 - 6:20So what is it?
-
6:20 - 6:22It's actually like
a genetic Swiss army knife. -
6:22 - 6:24We can pretend this is a Swiss army knife
-
6:24 - 6:26with different tools in it,
-
6:26 - 6:29and one of the tools
is kind of like a magnifying glass -
6:29 - 6:31or a GPS for our DNA,
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6:32 - 6:34so it can home in on a certain spot.
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6:34 - 6:36And the next tool is like scissors
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6:36 - 6:39that can cut the DNA right in that spot.
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6:39 - 6:41And finally we have a pen
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6:41 - 6:46where we can literally rewrite
the genetic code in that location. -
6:46 - 6:47It's really that simple.
-
6:48 - 6:51And this technology, which came
on the scene just three years ago, -
6:51 - 6:53has taken science by storm.
-
6:54 - 6:58It's evolving so fast, and it's
so freaking exciting to scientists, -
6:58 - 7:02and I admit I'm fascinated by it
and we use it in my own lab, -
7:03 - 7:07that I think someone
is going to go that extra step -
7:07 - 7:09and continue the GM human embryo work
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7:09 - 7:12and maybe make designer babies.
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7:13 - 7:15This is so ubiquitous now.
-
7:15 - 7:17It just came on the scene three years ago.
-
7:17 - 7:22Thousands of labs
literally have this in hand today, -
7:22 - 7:24and they're doing important research.
-
7:24 - 7:27Most of them are not interested
in designer babies. -
7:27 - 7:29They're studying human disease
-
7:29 - 7:32and other important elements of science.
-
7:32 - 7:34So there's a lot of good research
going on with CRISPR. -
7:35 - 7:38And the fact that we can
now do genetic modifications -
7:38 - 7:42that used to take years
and cost millions of dollars -
7:42 - 7:45in a few weeks
for a couple thousand bucks, -
7:45 - 7:47to me as a scientist that's fantastic,
-
7:47 - 7:50but again, at the same time,
-
7:50 - 7:53it opens the door to people going too far.
-
7:53 - 7:55And I think for some people
-
7:55 - 7:58the focus is not going to be
so much on science. -
7:58 - 8:00That's not what's going
to be driving them. -
8:00 - 8:03It's going to be ideology
or the chase for a profit. -
8:04 - 8:07And they're going to go
for designer babies. -
8:08 - 8:12So why should we be concerned about this?
-
8:12 - 8:15We know from Darwin,
if we go back two centuries, -
8:15 - 8:19that evolution and genetics
profoundly have impacted humanity, -
8:20 - 8:22who we are today.
-
8:22 - 8:26And some think there's like
a social Darwinism at work in our world, -
8:26 - 8:28and maybe even a eugenics as well.
-
8:29 - 8:32Imagine those trends, those forces,
-
8:32 - 8:35with a booster rocket
of this CRISPR technology -
8:35 - 8:38that is so powerful and so ubiquitous.
-
8:39 - 8:43And in fact, we can just go back
one century to the last century -
8:43 - 8:46to see the power that eugenics can have.
-
8:47 - 8:49So my father, Peter Knoepfler,
-
8:49 - 8:52was actually born right here in Vienna.
-
8:52 - 8:57He was Viennese,
and he was born here in 1929. -
8:57 - 9:00And when my grandparents
had little baby Peter, -
9:01 - 9:02the world was very different. Right?
-
9:02 - 9:04It was a different Vienna.
-
9:04 - 9:05The United States was different.
-
9:05 - 9:06The world was different.
-
9:06 - 9:09There was a eugenics rising,
-
9:09 - 9:11and my grandparents realized,
-
9:11 - 9:13pretty quickly I think,
-
9:13 - 9:16that they were on the wrong side
of the eugenics equation. -
9:17 - 9:19And so despite this being their home
-
9:19 - 9:21and their whole extended family's home,
-
9:21 - 9:26and this area being their family's
home for generations, -
9:26 - 9:29they decided because of eugenics
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9:29 - 9:30that they had to leave.
-
9:31 - 9:33And they survived,
but they were heartbroken, -
9:33 - 9:37and I'm not sure my dad
ever really got over leaving Vienna. -
9:37 - 9:39He left when he was just eight years old
-
9:39 - 9:41in 1938.
-
9:43 - 9:46So today, I see a new eugenics
-
9:46 - 9:48kind of bubbling to the surface.
-
9:48 - 9:53It's supposed to be a kinder,
gentler, positive eugenics, -
9:53 - 9:55different than all that past stuff.
-
9:56 - 10:01But I think even though it's focused
on trying to improve people, -
10:01 - 10:03it could have negative consequences,
-
10:03 - 10:05and it really worries me
-
10:05 - 10:07that some of the top proponents
of this new eugenics, -
10:07 - 10:11they think CRISPR is the ticket
to make it happen. -
10:12 - 10:14So I have to admit, you know,
-
10:14 - 10:17eugenics, we talk
about making better people. -
10:17 - 10:19It's a tough question.
-
10:19 - 10:22What is better when we're talking
about a human being? -
10:22 - 10:25But I admit I think maybe a lot of us
-
10:25 - 10:28could agree that human beings,
-
10:28 - 10:30maybe we could use a little betterment.
-
10:30 - 10:32Look at our politicians
-
10:32 - 10:34here, you know, back in the US --
-
10:34 - 10:38God forbid we go there right now.
-
10:38 - 10:40Maybe even if we just look in the mirror,
-
10:40 - 10:43there might be ways
we think we could be better. -
10:43 - 10:47I might wish, honestly, that I had
more hair here, instead of baldness. -
10:47 - 10:50Some people might wish they were taller,
-
10:50 - 10:53have a different weight, a different face.
-
10:54 - 10:57If we could do those things,
we could make those things happen, -
10:57 - 11:00or we could make them happen
in our children, -
11:00 - 11:01it would be very seductive.
-
11:02 - 11:05And yet coming with it
would be these risks. -
11:05 - 11:07I talked about eugenics,
-
11:07 - 11:10but there would be risks
to individuals as well. -
11:10 - 11:12So if we forget about enhancing people
-
11:12 - 11:17and we just try to make them
healthier using genetic modification, -
11:17 - 11:19this technology is so new
-
11:19 - 11:21and so powerful,
-
11:21 - 11:24that by accident
we could make them sicker. -
11:25 - 11:27That easily could happen.
-
11:27 - 11:28And there's another risk,
-
11:28 - 11:33and that is that all of the legitimate,
important genetic modification research -
11:33 - 11:34going on just in the lab --
-
11:34 - 11:37again, no interest in designer babies --
-
11:37 - 11:40a few people going
the designer baby route, -
11:40 - 11:42things go badly,
-
11:42 - 11:45that entire field could be damaged.
-
11:45 - 11:48I also think it's not that unlikely
-
11:48 - 11:52that governments might start taking
an interest in genetic modification. -
11:53 - 11:58So for example our imagined GM Jenna child
-
11:58 - 11:59who is healthier,
-
11:59 - 12:03if there's a generation that looks
like they have lower health care costs, -
12:03 - 12:07it's possible that governments
may start trying to compel their citizens -
12:07 - 12:09to go the GM route.
-
12:09 - 12:11Look at China's one-child policy.
-
12:11 - 12:17It's thought that that prevented
the birth of 400 million human beings. -
12:18 - 12:21So it's not beyond the realm of possible
-
12:21 - 12:25that genetic modification
could be something that governments push. -
12:25 - 12:29And if designer babies become popular,
-
12:29 - 12:31in our digital age --
-
12:31 - 12:33viral videos, social media --
-
12:33 - 12:36what if designer babies
are thought to be fashionable, -
12:36 - 12:38and they kind of become
the new glitterati, -
12:38 - 12:40the new Kardashians or something?
-
12:40 - 12:41(Laughter)
-
12:41 - 12:45You know, are those trends
that we really could control? -
12:45 - 12:48I'm not convinced that we could.
-
12:49 - 12:52So again, today it's Halloween
-
12:52 - 12:54and when we talk
about genetic modification, -
12:54 - 12:57there's one Halloween-associated character
-
12:57 - 13:00that is talked about
or invoked more than anything else, -
13:00 - 13:02and that is Frankenstein.
-
13:03 - 13:07Mostly that's been Frankenfoods
and all this other stuff. -
13:07 - 13:12But if we think about this now
and we think about it in the human context -
13:12 - 13:13on a day like Halloween,
-
13:13 - 13:18if parents can in essence
costume their children genetically, -
13:18 - 13:23are we going to be talking about
a Frankenstein 2.0 kind of situation? -
13:24 - 13:27I don't think so. I don't think
it's going to get to that extreme. -
13:27 - 13:31But when we are going about
hacking the human code, -
13:31 - 13:35I think all bets are off
in terms of what might come of that. -
13:35 - 13:36There would still be dangers.
-
13:38 - 13:39And we can look in the past
-
13:39 - 13:42to other elements
of transformative science -
13:42 - 13:46and see how they can
basically go out of control -
13:46 - 13:47and permeate society.
-
13:48 - 13:51So I'll just give you one example,
and that is in vitro fertilization. -
13:52 - 13:56Almost exactly 40 years ago,
-
13:56 - 14:00test tube baby number one
Louise Brown was born, -
14:00 - 14:01and that's a great thing,
-
14:01 - 14:07and I think since then
five million IVF babies have been born, -
14:07 - 14:08bringing immeasurable happiness.
-
14:08 - 14:11A lot of parents now can love those kids.
-
14:12 - 14:14But if you think about it,
in four decades, -
14:14 - 14:17five million babies being born
from a new technology -
14:18 - 14:19is pretty remarkable,
-
14:19 - 14:22and the same kind of thing could happen
-
14:22 - 14:25with human genetic modification
and designer babies. -
14:25 - 14:28So depending on the decisions
we make in the next few months, -
14:28 - 14:30the next year or so,
-
14:30 - 14:33if designer baby number one is born,
-
14:33 - 14:34within a few decades,
-
14:34 - 14:38there could well be millions
of genetically modified humans. -
14:38 - 14:42And there's a difference there too,
because if we, you in the audience, or I, -
14:42 - 14:45if we decide to have a designer baby,
-
14:45 - 14:49then their children will also
be genetically modified, and so on, -
14:49 - 14:51because it's heritable.
-
14:51 - 14:52So that's a big difference.
-
14:54 - 14:55So with all of this in mind,
-
14:56 - 14:57what should we do?
-
14:58 - 15:00There's actually going to be a meeting
-
15:00 - 15:03a month from tomorrow in Washington, D.C.
-
15:03 - 15:05by the US National Academy of Sciences
-
15:05 - 15:07to tackle that exact question.
-
15:07 - 15:11What is the right path forward
with human genetic modification? -
15:12 - 15:14I believe at this time
-
15:14 - 15:16we need a moratorium.
-
15:16 - 15:17We have to ban this.
-
15:17 - 15:21We should not allow
creating genetically modified people, -
15:21 - 15:24because it's just too dangerous
and too unpredictable. -
15:25 - 15:27But there's a lot of people --
-
15:27 - 15:28(Applause)
-
15:28 - 15:29Thanks.
-
15:29 - 15:33(Applause)
-
15:36 - 15:38And let me say, just as a scientist,
-
15:38 - 15:41it's a little bit scary
for me to say that in public, -
15:41 - 15:46because science generally doesn't like
self-regulation and things like that. -
15:47 - 15:50So I think we need to put a hold on this,
-
15:50 - 15:53but there are many people
who not only disagree with me, -
15:53 - 15:55they feel the exact opposite.
-
15:55 - 15:58They're like, step on the gas,
full speed ahead, -
15:58 - 16:00let's make designer babies.
-
16:00 - 16:03And so in the meeting in December
-
16:03 - 16:06and other meetings that are likely
to follow in the next few months, -
16:06 - 16:09it's very possible
there may be no moratorium. -
16:09 - 16:12And I think part
of the problem that we have -
16:12 - 16:14is that all of this trend,
-
16:14 - 16:19this revolution in genetic modification
applying to humans, -
16:19 - 16:20the public hasn't known about it.
-
16:20 - 16:22Nobody has been saying,
-
16:22 - 16:26look, this is a big deal,
this is a revolution, -
16:26 - 16:28and this could affect you
in very personal ways. -
16:28 - 16:31And so part of my goal
is actually to change that -
16:31 - 16:34and to educate and engage with the public
-
16:34 - 16:37and get you guys talking about this.
-
16:38 - 16:41And so I hope at these meetings
that there will be a role for the public -
16:41 - 16:44to bring their voice to bear as well.
-
16:46 - 16:50So if we kind of circle back now
to 2030 again, that imagined story, -
16:51 - 16:54and depending on the decisions
we make, again, today -- -
16:54 - 16:56literally we don't have a lot of time --
-
16:56 - 16:58in the next few months,
the next year or so, -
16:58 - 17:01because this technology
is spreading like wildfire. -
17:02 - 17:04Let's pretend we're back in that reality.
-
17:05 - 17:06We're at a park,
-
17:06 - 17:10and our kid is swinging on the swing.
-
17:11 - 17:13Is that kid a regular old kid,
-
17:13 - 17:17or did we decide to have a designer baby?
-
17:17 - 17:20And let's say we went
the sort of traditional route, -
17:20 - 17:23and there's our kid swinging on the swing,
-
17:23 - 17:26and frankly, they're kind of a mess.
-
17:26 - 17:28Their hair is all over
the place like mine. -
17:28 - 17:30They have a stuffy nose.
-
17:31 - 17:33They're not the best student in the world.
-
17:33 - 17:35They're adorable, you love them,
-
17:35 - 17:37but there on the swing next to them,
-
17:37 - 17:40their best friend is a GM kid,
-
17:40 - 17:43and the two of them
are kind of swinging like this, -
17:43 - 17:45and you can't help
but compare them, right? -
17:45 - 17:47And the GM kid is swinging higher,
-
17:47 - 17:50they look better,
they're a better student, -
17:50 - 17:53they don't have that stuffy nose
you need to wipe. -
17:53 - 17:55How is that going to make you feel
-
17:55 - 17:58and what decision
might you make next time? -
17:59 - 18:00Thank you.
-
18:00 - 18:06(Applause)
- Title:
- The ethical dilemma of designer babies
- Speaker:
- Paul Knoepfler
- Description:
-
Creating genetically modified people is no longer a science fiction fantasy; it's a likely future scenario. Biologist Paul Knoepfler estimates that within fifteen years, scientists could use the gene editing technology CRISPR to make certain "upgrades" to human embryos -- from altering physical appearances to eliminating the risk of auto-immune diseases. In this thought-provoking talk, Knoepfler readies us for the coming designer baby revolution and its very personal, and unforeseeable, consequences.
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDTalks
- Duration:
- 18:19
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for The ethical dilemma of designer babies | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for The ethical dilemma of designer babies | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for The ethical dilemma of designer babies | ||
Brian Greene approved English subtitles for The ethical dilemma of designer babies | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for The ethical dilemma of designer babies | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz accepted English subtitles for The ethical dilemma of designer babies | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz edited English subtitles for The ethical dilemma of designer babies | ||
Joanna Pietrulewicz edited English subtitles for The ethical dilemma of designer babies |