36C3 - The KGB Hack: 30 Years Later

36C3 preroll music

Herald Angel: Good evening, everyone. Our
next speaker is a historian and she is

rolling back time for us, 30 years to the
very beginnings of the Chaos Computer Club

and taking a closer look at the KGB hack,
the infamous KGB hack and what Karl Koch

did back them. So let's journey
back to the 80s with Anja Drephal.

Applause

Anja Drephal: Thank you. I was hoping to
see my presentation.

laughter
Drephal: Why am I not seeing my

presentation, my slides?

Yes. Thank you.

Dial-up noises

Drephal: Thank you.
Applause.

Drephal: That applause, guys, goes to my
amazing hacker who did this little video

as a start to my presentation. Thank you.

Why? No ...
Laughter

Drephal: I guess we'll have to do it again.

No, no. What is happening?

No, no, no, no, no.

Okay, okay. Welcome to 1989.

Before I start, I have to say, when you
start researching a topic like the KGB hack,

you suddenly find out there are so many
sources, not just books that have been

written, movies that have been made,
documentaries. There's articles in

newspapers, on the internet. There's
podcasts you can listen to that go into

every little detail of this case, every
little detail of the early history of the

CCC, the early history of the Internet as
it is, and due to time constraints that we

have, I'm going to have to simplify quite
a few things to just, you know, give you

an overview and tell you a story about
this topic. And I'm counting on you to

raise questions, in the end, at our Q&A,
to maybe go into more detail if you find

out, OK, there is something that should
have been a little more detailed is

something that, hey, I know about -
something about this because I'm sure a

lot of you know maybe more than me about
this story. So that's something that I'm

hoping we can do in 45 minutes, 40
minutes. First of all, I'd like to ask a

question - two questions to the audience.
Does anyone here think that this talk

might mention their name?

Yes. Who are you?

Laughter
Drephal: Well, I'm not going to mention

any real names except for one. So maybe
you would like to join us in the end. Or

you know, if not, then not. Second
question, is anyone here who attended

Congress in the 1980s? Excellent. Well,
personally, I did not because I was busy

with kindergarten and elementary school
and stuff. My first Congress was in 2012

when a friend of mine introduced me to the
Chaos Computer Club. I went to Hamburg.

I spent four amazing days at Congress, and
in the end I thought, oh my God, this is

so great. And I thought, OK, what could I
give back to this amazing community? What

could I add to this experience? And I'm
not a hacker or very much into tech, but

I'm a historian. I can tell you history,
and I'm very thankful that the content

team has now invited me for the fourth
time to tell you about history. I'm very

thankful that this talk has gotten a slot
on day one, because I think it's the

perfect time to take a look back at what
was, to take a look at what has changed,

to remember those who unfortunately cannot
be here today and then spend three more

days in the present, at this Congress. So
let me set the scene for you. It's 1989,

especially it's March 1989. In March,
1989, the world was still very much

divided. Germany was still divided into
West Germany and the German Democratic

Republic. And looking at Leipzig in March
1989, we had the spring fair. Not here,

but in the old fairgrounds. And the German
Democratic Republic proudly presented

their latest and greatest in technology.
They had just developed a four megabit

hybrid memory - four megabits.
Unfortunately, it was way too expensive to

make it on the world market. But they were
proud. West Germany had its own issues.

Laughter
Drephal: Difficult times. People had to

wear stone washed jeans and pastel colored
sweaters. Number one hit in the West

German charts in March was David
Hasselhoff, Looking for Freedom. And Bill

and Ted were going on an excellent
adventure. Sequel is coming out next year,

don't miss it.
Laughter

Drephal: Speaking about television,
private television in West Germany was

still very much in its infancy. Most
people still had three television channels

first, second, third and they got their
information from the television. The first

program showed the news every night at
8:00. People watched it, much more than

today. And sometimes the first German
television had a special program called Im

Brennpunkt, In Focus. That always came out
when something was so exciting, so

newsworthy that it couldn't be
sufficiently dealt with in the normal

news. So on March 2nd, 1989, the first
German television showed this.

Music

Drephal: Why isn't it moving? Oh, come on,

please. It's moving on my screen.
TV moderator speaking in German

Drephal: Would have been nice, if...
TV moderator speaking in German

Drephal: Well, okay, if it had been
moving, you would have seen a dude in a

suit telling you that the biggest spy case
since Günter Guillaume has just been

uncovered. Günter Guillaume was an East
German spy who worked closely in the

offices of German Chancellor Willy Brandt
in the 1970s. He worked for the East

German Secret Service, and when he was
uncovered, the Chancellor had to step

down. So apparently in March 1989, we have
a spy case of German hackers working for

the KGB that is as big as Günter
Guillaume. Spoiler: It was not. But

anyway. How is that even possible? How can
you, how can German hackers work for the

KGB in 1989? How can they hack anything
over the Internet? Well, there is no

Internet. What there is, is basically
this. Let's say, in the mid 1980s, you're

a teenager and you've got a computer for
Christmas. Lucky you. So what can you do

with it? There's no Internet. There are
computers that are connected. Big

computers made by IBM and by VAX that are
standing in universities, research

institutions, military institutions, big
companies. And you have, in the 1980s, a

network that you can actually dial in to
from your home. So you have a phone that's

connected to a wall, usually, if it's not
cut off, and you have a computer and if

you're lucky, you have a sort of modem.
It's called an acoustic coupler. We have

one here for the C64. The most famous one
was the data phone, it's bigger, but this

one basically works the same. You strap
your phone to it and you call your local

post office. And your local post office in
the 1980s has a network called Data XP,

which stands for data exchange packet
based. It's based on the X.25 protocol and

it gives you the opportunity to connect to
computers all over Germany and all over

Europe and actually all over the world.
What you need is a network user

identification, a so-called new NUI, which
is expensive. The call to your local post

office, not so much, especially in West
Berlin, which was known as sort of a

hacker's paradise because local calls cost
only twenty three Pfennig, twenty three

cents, not per minute, but per call. So if
you had a network user identification from

somewhere, you could just call your local
data XP office and connect. These NUIs

were expensive, but you could find them,
for example, at the computer fair in

Hanover because people weren't watching
their screens, their terminals, and maybe

you could look over somebody's shoulder
and see their log in and use it and run up

charges of thousands of marks and then you
can connect to message boards, which is a

bit, well, not so exciting. Much more
exciting is the big computers standing at

institutions and companies. And so,
through this, possibility, these

possibilities, this network comes a hacker
scene in the 1980s of mostly young people,

teenagers, young guys, not so many girls,
who connect to these big computers because

they can, because they're there and
they're interesting. And you just want to

see what's on them. Especially infamous
was CERN, the nuclear research

organization in Switzerland,
where at some point hackers were actually

having kind of parties in the system
connecting to the computers and chatting

with the systems managers who were a bit
annoyed because they had work to do, but

not that bothered because it wasn't really
seen as anything that could harm them. And

the point was to go into these computers
because you can to show that you can and

to have some fun and not because you're a
criminal or you want to take some data or

make money off it, but just as a sport.
And now... and in this scene, the Chaos

Computer Club also established itself as
sort of a mediator between these hackers

and the institutions and companies that
were being broken into. Always stressing

that when you're hacking, you should do it
with an ethical approach. Never, you know,

doing any harm. Being excellent. Not
making any money. And for God's sake,

staying away from military or Secret
Service computers, don't touch those.

Here's a quote on one of the first
Congresses, which I think sounds pretty

much like today. This amazing experience
and the news crews interested and

reporting on what's happening with these
sort of harmless tech freaks and hackers

that were just having fun. And this is the
scene where a group of young men met in

the mid 1980's and started hanging out,
started sitting in front of computers,

hacking together, talking, consuming
drugs, also, and just, you know, having

fun. And these are their nicknames. They
were all, sort of, some were programmers,

some were teenagers who were into hacking.
One of them, the last one here, wasn't

really a hacker. He worked at a casino and
he made some money on his side selling

drugs. And they were just hanging out and
and just feeling like they were the

greatest. They were... Someone has
compared them to sort of graffiti kids.

They did it because they could, just
leaving their mark everywhere in the

computers. And... Well, they were just, you
know, talking and somebody had the idea,

OK, what can we do to get recognized as
the greatest hackers or how can we make

something off it? There's always the issue
of money problems that you might have,

stupid ideas that you have when you're a
teenager or a young kid. And one of them

came up with the idea, Hey, I know
somebody in East Berlin who might be

interested in what we're doing and maybe
we could sell that. I know someone, a

Russian, and it might be, you know, it
might actually be a contribution to world

peace because the Russians need technology
that they don't have and we have it. We

could kind of equalize the scales a bit.
It's a stupid idea, of course. But this

guy, Pedro, his name was Peter, he
actually went to East Berlin, walked into

the Soviet trade mission and said he
wanted to talk someone about a deal, super

stupid, walking in the front door and
someone actually listened to him. A guy

who introduced himself as Sergei, who
officially worked at the trade mission,

which in my opinion means KGB, was willing
to listen and our hackers offered, OK, we

can get you like log-ins to computers in
West Germany and even America. We can even

teach you how to hack, you know, for like
a million marks. How about that? And

Sergei was like, Okay, that's nice, but I
need something else. Because he had a

shopping list which came pretty much
directly from the embargo list made by the

Coordinating Committee on Multilateral
Export Controls. There was an embargo,

technology and, yeah, electronic parts.
Computers weren't allowed to be sold into

the Soviet Union or the Eastern Bloc in
general. And that was basically his

shopping list. What the Soviets wanted was
not so much, you know, log-ins to military

computers. They wanted source code, for
example... According to the sources, he

actually had a list that said, OK, UNIX
source code, twenty five thousand marks,

maybe a compiler for this and that, five
thousand marks. And our hackers were able

to provide. They didn't exactly make a
million, but about ninety thousand marks

exchanged hands in the following months.

Until a systems administrator in

California noticed something. And now I
have to tell you, the legend of Clifford

Stoll. Clifford Stoll has become famous
for uncovering the KGB hackers, and a sort

of legend has been built around him,
telling his story again and again. He,

there was a funny documentary made. He had
a book coming out. And there are some

weird aspects in this story, but maybe we
can talk about them later. So, first of

all, I'm just going to give you the story
as he tells it. And I would like to show

you, because you can describe this man,
but you just have to see him. And if this

video isn't working again, then I'm gonna
be a really, really sad. Please.

TV announcer: Tonight, on Nova...
Drephal: Are you fucking kidding me?

TV character 1: Where's Decker again?
TV character 2: He's in an Army Base.

Gibberish
TV announcer: A lone scientist is on the

trail of a computer spy...
Drephal: Yeah, because that would be

really awesome if we could actually watch
it.

Shouting
Drephal: Huh? Oh, man. Um, can we just go

to the slide that we need, maybe? This
is... okay. Should we try it? Well, it

shows a picture at least. That's good.
Yeah. Let's just try this. Do some-thing.

Technical Angel: You have to start the
presentation.

Drephal: Yeah, I'm trying. Here, right?
Oh, no. Come on, come on. Well, we're

going to get there.

TV announcer: Tonight, on Nova...

Drephal: Yes!
Applause

TV announcer: A lone scientist on the
trail of a computer spy. The hacker is out

there somewhere, raiding computers,
stealing government files.

Clifford Stoll: Hi, Manny. Some computer
hacker's looking for him.

TV announcer: The true story of Cliff
Stoll's real life adventure, featuring the

actual participants recreating the events
is The KGB, The Computer and Me.

Laughter

Drephal: I like his hair. Okay, so,

Clifford Stoll's story is that he was a
systems administrator at Lawrence Berkeley

Laboratory and he noticed in his
accounting system 75 cents missing because

some user had accrued 75 cents of computer
time and not paid for it. And he found out

that there was a weird user he didn't
know. And he just deleted him. A couple of

days later, somebody else was on his
computer and had system privileges. And he

says, he just got interested. He didn't
want to shut this person out, he wanted to

know who it was and what they were doing.
So he started tracking whoever was coming

into his computers for months, actually a
whole year in the end, that he was

tracking this person. He got help from a
friendly district attorney who got him a

warrant to trace the phone lines. And,
long story short... Can you actually see

something? That's nice. He found out that
his intruder came in through TimeNet, the

equivalent, the American equivalent of
Data XP. And he wasn't even in the US. He

was in Germany. He came in through Data XP
at the University of Bremen. And the trace

ended in Hanover. And in Hanover, the
problem was that they had really old

switches from the 1950s, and it would have
taken about an hour to track the hacker

back to his own phone at home. And the
problem was the hacker never stayed long

enough on Stoll's computers. He used them
as a gateway to get into much more

interesting computers. For example, the
Pentagon database at the Pentagon, the Air

Force, the Navy, the Army, even Army
computers in Japan. Computers in the

Ramstein, Germany. So Stoll was at a loss:
How to keep him in a system long enough so

he could actually, or the German post
could actually track this person back to

his own phone line. So he says that his
girlfriend came up with the idea: If

there's nothing on your computer that
interests him, then then put something

there. Put some files there that look
super secret and are super big so that he

needs time to look at them. And that
actually worked. They made up a bunch of

Big Data and they even put in a mailing
list that said, OK, if you want more

information about Strategic Defense
Initiative, also known as Star Wars, send

us a letter because it's so much data, we
have to send it through the post. And

surprisingly enough, that worked. First of
all, The German post was able to track

Clifford Stoll's hacker back to the house
of one of our KGB hackers, Urmel.

His apartment was searched, his office was
searched, but the police didn't really

know what they were looking for because
they didn't find any disk that said Super

Secret SDInet Files or something and
nothing much came of it. And the second

thing that happened was that somebody
actually answered this mailing list.

A Hungarian immigrant in Pittsburgh sent a
letter to Clifford Stoll asking for

information on SDInet files. Was he
working for the KGB or was he working for

somebody else? It's a weird story.

In any case, so, in the summer of 1987,
Clifford

Stoll finally knew, OK, there's some dude
in Germany who's been hacking my computer,

but nothing much happened of it. And it
kind of calmed down a bit until the media

got interested. Who got the media
interested is another interesting

question. But in any case, in April of
1988, German magazine Quick reported on

the case using Clifford Stoll's notes. In
May 1988, he published a paper suggesting

that this hacker in his system had
something to do with the KGB and our

hackers got a bit nervous. At this point,
we have to talk about about Hagbard. His

name, his real name was Karl Koch. And in
1988, he was in a difficult place. He had

psychological issues, he had drug issues,
he had money problems. And he started

talking to journalists, offering to tell
wild stories about the KGB and what he

could do, offering to hack into nuclear
reactors, which obviously was not

possible. But he just wanted to get a lot
of money for it. And the others got a bit

nervous. And in July, the youngest in the
group went to the authorities and offered

to be a witness if he got immunity for
anything that he might have done. And this

led to the video I wanted to show you in
the beginning when in March 1989, arrests

were made, all five of them were arrested.
Two had to stay in jail because they had

prior convictions. Houses were searched
and the media descended on the Chaos

Computer Club because these five guys were
somehow related. And suddenly, the Chaos

Computer Club was not this harmless group
anymore. But the media portrayed them as,

you know, working for the KGB, hacking
basically everything. And dramatizing the

whole situation.

What actually came out of
it was not so much. The process, in early

1990, focused on questions like if any
classified information was actually

transferred or stored anywhere,
downloaded. Nobody could prove that.

If the USA or Germany were actually
compromised in any way. Not really. And

how... The main question was how did this
Hungarian immigrant get this mailing list?

Because only Clifford Stoll and the hacker
could have had access to it. And the

question is, did he actually get it from
the KGB or was it, as one of, one of our

hackers suggested a couple of years ago in
a podcast, maybe it might have been, he

might have been an agent provocateur, he
might have been set up by somebody to push

these investigations after the German
authorities didn't really do much with it.

That's the question.

So this biggest spy case since
Guillaume ended with probation

sentences and some fines because there was
no proof that any real harm had been done.

The most tragic outcome maybe was the
death of Karl Koch, who was our hacker

Hagbard. He was a very troubled young man.
He was orphaned early. He inherited a lot

of money when he was young, which is
always difficult. He bought a computer. He

had a nice apartment. He had parties with
his friends. He consumed drugs. And he was

from a young age obsessed with the novel
Illuminatus!, and the number 23. A movie

was made about him in 1998, it's nice, you
can find it on YouTube. I didn't include

it in my links because I'm not sure about
the copyright situation. But it's

interesting, nice soundtrack. And this
whole situation in 1989, the media

pressing down on him and him having these
illusions... He thought the Illuminati

were in his head controlling his thoughts.
He thought they were controlling the

international networks and he had to do
something about it. Ended on May 23rd,

1989, when he was 23 years old.

He officially committed suicide by burning

himself. And that is such a gruesome way
to die that immediately there were

conspiracy theories that maybe he didn't
commit suicide, maybe he had help doing

it. And that's something I
cannot answer, obviously.

The much more lasting result of

this whole case was the image loss that
the Chaos Computer Club suffered. Because

suddenly they weren't harmless pranksters
joyriding through computers and, you know,

showing companies flaws in their systems,
showing the post flaws in their BTX

system, for example. Suddenly they were
portrayed as dangerous hackers, selling

secrets, being spies, and, you know, they
can't be trusted. And as far as I read,

the club almost dissolved about this issue
in 1990, but luckily survived. But this is

an image that is still lingering today.
And I think this image of hackers being

somehow untrustworthy and being somehow
dangerous, you don't know really what they

do and why they do it, but they're
dangerous, that is still lingering today.

Whenever the media tells you something
about hackers, they always show you

something like, hi. Something like this.
An anonymous, Anonymous dude with a hoodie

sitting in front of a computer. Some
random numbers flashing. They don't make

any sense, but it looks dangerous. And,
oh, yeah. And these hackers, they're

everywhere. They won't stop at anything.

Laughter

Drephal: Just two days ago on Christmas.

Laughter and applause

German supermarket chain REWE had to call

back their chopped almonds because they've
been hacked. Beware. And so I was

interested in taking a look at how the
media portrays hackers these days.

So I did some Google searches. I thought,
okay, what are famous hacking groups

that you read about a lot? And for
example, you know, we were talking about

the KGB. So what about Russian hackers? So
the first results I saw was Russian

hacking: How did it affect the 2016
elections? So apparently Russian hackers

are still very much busy with the United
States and the elections leaking

documents, supporting Trump for some
reason. That's what you find on the media

about Russian hackers. And then I thought,
OK, what else is there today? What about

China? Chinese hackers sounds dangerous.
What are they doing? So Chinese hackers

apparently are busy hacking two factor
authentication these days. They're in your

phone, beware. Hacking you, right now, as
I speak. But what about German hackers?

We've been talking about these German
hackers who basically crashed the image of

hacking forever. So what are they up to
today? When you google German hackers, the

first result is Clifford Stoll.
Laughing

Drephal: After 30 years, really, still?
That's the news? I don't know, maybe it's

time to make German Hacking Great Again.

Laughter and applause

Drephal: Very good. So. And finally, what
about the Chaos Computer Club? What has

changed in the past 30 years? Here's
another quote that I've found of a

Congress and the issues that were
discussed at Congress. Someone standing up

and telling the audience that he was
unhappy with where he saw Chaos going. The

political direction is unacceptable.
Concentrating on things like environmental

protection, climate change or something,
is diverting the group from its technical

origins. And it's little wonder that truly
talented hackers are beginning to abandon

the club. This is from 1988.

So are we still having the same
issues today? Are we

still discussing the same thing? Where is
the CCC going? Is it too political? Should

it focus more on real hacking, on the
technology or what? But fortunately, a lot

has changed. For example, when you think
about those guys who were at the Congress

in the 1980s, how many people were there,
like 400? At a Congress in 85? How many

people are here today? 16.000? I mean, not
in this room, but I think last year was

16.000. That's amazing. And something else
I mentioned, when I was this big, I didn't

attend Congress. But today you walk around
and there's tiny hackers whizzing on

scooters everywhere, which is awesome.
People are bringing their kids and you

have a much wider cross section of society
today. And something else... I don't know

if you noticed, but when I told you the
story about the KGB hack, what was

missing? There was something
that did not show up.

Women. The only women, the only

woman in this story is Clifford Stoll's
girlfriend, who allegedly came up with the

idea of planting a honey pot in his
system. There is no other woman in this

story. It's all young dudes hacking away.
And that certainly has changed. There

are... I don't know the percentage. I
can't tell. But there's so many women and

other non male participants that, like I
said, it's a much wider cross-section of

society today. But apart from these
issues, what else what do you think are

the issues we have today and we're going
to have in the future? That's my question

to you. And I would like some answers. And
if you want to confess about hacking

something, my DECT is 6623. You can
telegram me or tell us now.

Applause

Herald: Thank you very much for this
excellent talk. We do have six microphones

here in the hall. Please line up there.
Are there questions from the Internet via

our Signal Angel?
Signal Angel: No, there are none.

Herald: There are no questions from the
Internets. Do we have questions here?

We have question at microphone three.
Question: Yes. Oh, my goodness. Thanks a

lot for a talk. It was amazing. Can you
please just show us the first video?

Laughter
Drephal: Oh, yeah. I hope so.

Herald: Yes, we have plenty of time.
Drephal: Yeah. Let's just try to...

Herald: In the meantime, if you have
questions, please line up at the

microphones.
Drephal: I don't want to... Okay, getting

close. Getting close. Getting close. Okay.
You mean this one?

Audience: No!
Drephal: Yeah, that one doesn't work. Oh,

not this one? Oh, yeah. The next one.
Let's try.

Intro music

Ah!
Applause

Laughter

TV announcer: Guten Abend, meine Damen und
Herren, zu so später Stunde. Sie haben es

ja gerade eben schon gehört. Laut Programm
sollten sie jetzt einen Wirtschaftskrimi

mit dem Titel Tanker sehen, den bringen
wir heute abend nicht. Dafür aber einen

Spionagekrimi, und zwar einen echten.
Einen authentischen Report über den

schwersten Spionagefall seit der
Enttarnung des Kanzleramtsagenten Günter

Guillaume.
Drephal: You can find the whole Brennpunkt

on YouTube. It's very interesting. It's
like 30 minutes. There's a lot of the same

images as in the other documentation I
showed. Dudes in black sunglasses, the CIA

and stuff. Also, this documentation about
Clifford Stoll is hilarious. Not just the

scene where where he runs out the shower
in his towel to his computer because the

hacker is on. It's hilarious.
Herald: So do we have any more questions

from the Internet, from the hall.
Drephal: No?

Herald: No, it does not... Well, then
there is something up at microphone 5.

Question: Can you hear me? Yeah.
Drephal: Where? Ah, there!

Q: Do we know anything about the rest of
the group?

Drephal: Yes.
Q: Working today, for example?

Drephal: Yes. Well, about... let me, go
back or go front. Well, I did... I looked

into them. DOB, I could not find anything
about him. He was actually one of the two

who had to stay in prison for almost a
year because he was fleeing the army

service and they were looking for him.
I couldn't find anything about what he's

doing today. Pengo is very active. He has
a Twitter. He's into vintage computing.

And he's, he's the one who's always been
interviewed. You know, every 10 years, 10

years after the KGB hack, 20 years after
the KGB hack, he's been on TV, he's been

on podcasts. You can find a lot about him.

But, about 10 years ago, he was on Tim

Pritlove's podcast. Very interesting. It's
two hours long, but it's super

interesting, very detailed in, into the
beginnings of the Internet. And there he

said, OK. He's being asked about this
again and again. And sometimes you just

don't want to talk about it anymore. I can
totally understand that. Well, you know

what happened about, what happened with
Hagbard. Urmel, I couldn't find out

anything either.

Also, Pedro, no.
Not so much.

Herald: So we have another question on
microphone three.

Question: Hi. Well, first of all, thank
you very much. I did read The Kuckuck's

Egg.
Drephal: Excellent!

Q: And thank you for posing the German
perspective towards it. It really

elaborates the story quite a lot. You
finished your presentation with the

question, what is missing, currently, at
the Chaos Computer Club. I love it

probably as much as you do.

I come from the Netherlands and
I have the feeling that in

Holland, hackers collaborate much more
with governments and companies.

Drephal: Okay.
Q: It's good to be critical against

government, but to criticize everything
and to shut out government for everything

doesn't solve the problem. So what I'm
hoping for is a more constructive

collaboration with the German government
and I hope I'm not making myself very

impopular here. I perhaps do, but I'm
Dutch.

Laughter
Drephal: Thank you.

Applause

Herald: Another question, microphone one.
Question: Hi. Just to get the facts

straight. So, I mean, I guess we all know
here the story, the development of the

term hacking since the IT hacks, et
cetera. Would you say that explicitly, the

story with the German hacking is the thing
that stained the name of hacking in our

mainstream consciousness?
Drephal: Not, not alone. I mean, there's

obviously when you look at the US, there's
cases of hacking. I mean, talking about

Kevin Mitnick, for example, Robert Tappan
Morris, who shut down all the computers in

the US for days. That's something that,
obviously, formed the image of hacking in

the US and I, I'm not sure about other
countries to be, to be honest. But I'm

thinking that it was around the same time,
so end of the 80s, hacking kind of lost

its innocence through various infamous
hacks like the KGB hack.

Q: Thank you very much.
Drephal: Thank you.

Herald: Next question, microphone three.
Question: Yes. Thank you, interesting

talk. And is there a list or has...
Herald: Please talk a bit closer to the

microphone. Thank you.
Q: Has anyone a list of which kind of

information has been leaked or which kind
of facilities have been compromised? And

second questions, have the Russians ever
confirmed this hack?

Drephal: First question. Yes. Well,
there's the official documents that came

out in, in the process. There's actually,
if you, if you read German, there is an

interesting book that came out in 1990
about this case. And it has very detailed

information about what kind of
institutions have been hacked and what

kind of information has been given to the
Soviets. But most of it, I guess, is, is,

comes from confessions, because there was
no proof. The Russians did never confirm

that, yeah, OK, We got this and we got
that. No, of course not. And so most of it

is what the hackers actually confessed.
Herald: Do we have any more questions? It

does not look like that. So for anyone who
left already. You're going to miss out on

the outro video.
Drephal: Yeah.

Herald: Take it away.
Drephal: If I can actually do that because

there's no more questions. Are we seeing
this? Excellent. It's just one thing, for

me, left to do.

Why am I...

Drephal: Thank you!

Applause
Herald: Thank you. Big one, round of

applause.
Applause

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