Behind the lies of Holocaust denial
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0:01 - 0:05I come to you today to speak of liars,
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0:05 - 0:07lawsuits
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0:07 - 0:08and laughter.
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0:09 - 0:12The first time I heard
about Holocaust denial, -
0:12 - 0:13I laughed.
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0:14 - 0:16Holocaust denial?
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0:16 - 0:20The Holocaust which has
the dubious distinction -
0:20 - 0:24of being the best-documented
genocide in the world? -
0:25 - 0:27Who could believe it didn't happen?
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0:28 - 0:29Think about it.
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0:30 - 0:33For deniers to be right,
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0:33 - 0:34who would have to be wrong?
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0:35 - 0:38Well, first of all, the victims --
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0:38 - 0:43the survivors who have told us
their harrowing stories. -
0:44 - 0:46Who else would have to be wrong?
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0:46 - 0:48The bystanders.
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0:48 - 0:52The people who lived in the myriads
of towns and villages and cities -
0:52 - 0:54on the Eastern front,
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0:54 - 0:56who watched their neighbors
be rounded up -- -
0:56 - 1:00men, women, children, young, old --
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1:00 - 1:02and be marched
to the outskirts of the town -
1:02 - 1:05to be shot and left dead in ditches.
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1:06 - 1:07Or the Poles,
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1:07 - 1:12who lived in towns and villages
around the death camps, -
1:12 - 1:14who watched day after day
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1:14 - 1:17as the trains went in filled with people
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1:17 - 1:19and came out empty.
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1:20 - 1:23But above all, who would have to be wrong?
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1:24 - 1:25The perpetrators.
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1:26 - 1:29The people who say, "We did it.
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1:29 - 1:31I did it."
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1:31 - 1:33Now, maybe they add a caveat.
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1:33 - 1:38They say, "I didn't have a choice;
I was forced to do it." -
1:38 - 1:41But nonetheless, they say, "I did it."
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1:42 - 1:43Think about it.
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1:44 - 1:49In not one war crimes trial
since the end of World War II -
1:49 - 1:56has a perpetrator of any nationality
ever said, "It didn't happen." -
1:57 - 2:02Again, they may have said, "I was forced,"
but never that it didn't happen. -
2:02 - 2:03Having thought that through,
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2:03 - 2:07I decided denial was not
going to be on my agenda; -
2:07 - 2:11I had bigger things to worry about,
to write about, to research, -
2:11 - 2:12and I moved on.
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2:13 - 2:16Fast-forward a little over a decade,
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2:16 - 2:18and two senior scholars --
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2:18 - 2:21two of the most prominent historians
of the Holocaust -- -
2:21 - 2:22approached me and said,
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2:22 - 2:24"Deborah, let's have coffee.
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2:24 - 2:27We have a research idea
that we think is perfect for you." -
2:27 - 2:31Intrigued and flattered
that they came to me with an idea -
2:31 - 2:33and thought me worthy of it,
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2:33 - 2:35I asked, "What is it?"
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2:36 - 2:39And they said, "Holocaust denial."
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2:39 - 2:42And for the second time, I laughed.
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2:42 - 2:44Holocaust denial?
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2:44 - 2:46The Flat Earth folks?
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2:46 - 2:48The Elvis-is-alive people?
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2:48 - 2:51I should study them?
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2:51 - 2:53And these two guys said,
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2:53 - 2:55"Yeah, we're intrigued.
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2:55 - 2:57What are they about?
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2:57 - 2:58What's their objective?
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2:58 - 3:02How do they manage to get people
to believe what they say?" -
3:03 - 3:06So thinking, if they thought
it was worthwhile, -
3:06 - 3:10I would take a momentary diversion --
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3:10 - 3:13maybe a year, maybe two,
three, maybe even four -- -
3:13 - 3:15in academic terms, that's momentary.
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3:15 - 3:16(Laughter)
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3:16 - 3:18We work very slowly.
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3:19 - 3:20(Laughter)
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3:20 - 3:22And I would look at them.
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3:22 - 3:23So I did.
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3:23 - 3:26I did my research, and I came up
with a number of things, -
3:26 - 3:29two of which I'd like to share
with you today. -
3:29 - 3:30One:
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3:30 - 3:35deniers are wolves in sheep's clothing.
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3:36 - 3:39They are the same: Nazis, neo-Nazis --
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3:39 - 3:42you can decide whether you want
to put a "neo" there or not. -
3:43 - 3:45But when I looked at them,
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3:45 - 3:50I didn't see any SS-like uniforms,
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3:50 - 3:53swastika-like symbols on the wall,
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3:53 - 3:55Sieg Heil salutes --
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3:55 - 3:57none of that.
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3:57 - 4:00What I found instead
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4:00 - 4:04were people parading
as respectable academics. -
4:05 - 4:06What did they have?
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4:06 - 4:08They had an institute.
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4:08 - 4:12An "Institute for Historical Review."
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4:12 - 4:15They had a journal -- a slick journal --
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4:15 - 4:18a "Journal of Historical Review."
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4:18 - 4:21One filled with papers --
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4:21 - 4:23footnote-laden papers.
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4:24 - 4:26And they had a new name.
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4:26 - 4:29Not neo-Nazis,
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4:29 - 4:31not anti-Semites --
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4:31 - 4:32revisionists.
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4:33 - 4:35They said, "We are revisionists.
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4:35 - 4:38We are out to do one thing:
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4:38 - 4:41to revise mistakes in history."
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4:42 - 4:48But all you had to do was go
one inch below the surface, -
4:48 - 4:50and what did you find there?
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4:50 - 4:52The same adulation of Hitler,
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4:52 - 4:54praise of the Third Reich,
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4:54 - 4:57anti-Semitism, racism, prejudice.
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4:58 - 5:00This is what intrigued me.
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5:00 - 5:07It was anti-Semitism, racism, prejudice,
parading as rational discourse. -
5:09 - 5:10The other thing I found --
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5:10 - 5:14many of us have been taught to think
there are facts and there are opinions -- -
5:14 - 5:16after studying deniers,
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5:16 - 5:17I think differently.
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5:17 - 5:19There are facts,
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5:19 - 5:21there are opinions,
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5:21 - 5:22and there are lies.
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5:23 - 5:28And what deniers want to do
is take their lies, -
5:29 - 5:30dress them up as opinions --
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5:30 - 5:32maybe edgy opinions,
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5:32 - 5:35maybe sort of out-of-the-box opinions --
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5:35 - 5:36but then if they're opinions,
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5:36 - 5:39they should be part of the conversation.
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5:39 - 5:42And then they encroach on the facts.
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5:43 - 5:45I published my work --
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5:45 - 5:46the book was published,
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5:46 - 5:49"Denying the Holocaust: The Growing
Assault on Truth and Memory," -
5:50 - 5:51it came out in many different countries,
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5:51 - 5:54including here in Penguin UK,
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5:54 - 5:57and I was done with those folks
and ready to move on. -
5:58 - 6:02Then came the letter from Penguin UK.
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6:02 - 6:05And for the third time, I laughed ...
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6:07 - 6:08mistakenly.
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6:09 - 6:11I opened the letter,
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6:11 - 6:17and it informed me that David Irving
was bringing a libel suit against me -
6:17 - 6:18in the United Kingdom
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6:18 - 6:21for calling him a Holocaust denier.
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6:22 - 6:24David Irving suing me?
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6:24 - 6:25Who was David Irving?
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6:25 - 6:28David Irving was a writer
of historical works, -
6:28 - 6:30most of them about World War II,
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6:30 - 6:33and virtually all of those works
took the position -
6:33 - 6:37that the Nazis were really not so bad,
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6:37 - 6:40and the Allies were really not so good.
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6:40 - 6:42And the Jews, whatever happened to them,
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6:42 - 6:43they sort of deserved it.
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6:44 - 6:46He knew the documents,
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6:46 - 6:47he knew the facts,
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6:47 - 6:50but he somehow twisted them
to get this opinion. -
6:51 - 6:54He hadn't always been a Holocaust denier,
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6:54 - 6:55but in the late '80s,
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6:55 - 6:58he embraced it with great vigor.
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7:00 - 7:03The reason I laughed also
was this was a man -
7:03 - 7:05who not only was a Holocaust denier,
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7:05 - 7:07but seemed quite proud of it.
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7:07 - 7:09Here was a man -- and I quote --
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7:09 - 7:12who said, "I'm going to sink
the battleship Auschwitz." -
7:13 - 7:15Here was a man
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7:15 - 7:19who pointed to the number tattooed
on a survivor's arm and said, -
7:20 - 7:21"How much money have you made
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7:21 - 7:25from having that number
tattooed on your arm?" -
7:26 - 7:27Here was a man who said,
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7:27 - 7:30"More people died in Senator Kennedy's car
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7:30 - 7:32at Chappaquiddick
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7:32 - 7:35than died in gas chambers at Auschwitz."
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7:35 - 7:38That's an American reference,
but you can look it up. -
7:39 - 7:42This was not a man who seemed
at all ashamed or reticent -
7:42 - 7:45about being a Holocaust denier.
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7:45 - 7:49Now, lots of my academic
colleagues counseled me -- -
7:49 - 7:51"Eh, Deborah, just ignore it."
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7:51 - 7:54When I explained you can't just
ignore a libel suit, -
7:54 - 7:57they said, "Who's going to
believe him anyway?" -
7:58 - 8:00But here was the problem:
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8:00 - 8:05British law put the onus,
put the burden of proof on me -
8:05 - 8:08to prove the truth of what I said,
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8:08 - 8:11in contrast to as it would have
been in the United States -
8:11 - 8:12and in many other countries:
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8:12 - 8:15on him to prove the falsehood.
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8:16 - 8:17What did that mean?
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8:17 - 8:21That meant if I didn't fight,
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8:21 - 8:23he would win by default.
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8:24 - 8:26And if he won by default,
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8:26 - 8:28he could then legitimately say,
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8:28 - 8:34"My David Irving version of the Holocaust
is a legitimate version. -
8:34 - 8:36Deborah Lipstadt was found
to have libeled me -
8:36 - 8:38when she called me a Holocaust denier.
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8:38 - 8:42Ipso facto, I, David Irving,
am not a Holocaust denier." -
8:42 - 8:44And what is that version?
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8:44 - 8:47There was no plan to murder the Jews,
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8:47 - 8:50there were no gas chambers,
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8:50 - 8:51there were no mass shootings,
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8:51 - 8:55Hitler had nothing to do
with any suffering that went on, -
8:55 - 8:58and the Jews have made this all up
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8:58 - 9:01to get money from Germany
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9:01 - 9:03and to get a state,
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9:03 - 9:06and they've done it with the aid
and abettance of the Allies -- -
9:06 - 9:09they've planted the documents
and planted the evidence. -
9:10 - 9:13I couldn't let that stand
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9:13 - 9:15and ever face a survivor
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9:16 - 9:18or a child of survivors.
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9:18 - 9:20I couldn't let that stand
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9:20 - 9:24and consider myself
a responsible historian. -
9:25 - 9:27So we fought.
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9:27 - 9:29And for those of you
who haven't seen "Denial," -
9:29 - 9:30spoiler alert:
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9:30 - 9:32we won.
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9:32 - 9:33(Laughter)
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9:33 - 9:36(Applause)
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9:40 - 9:44The judge found David Irving
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9:44 - 9:48to be a liar,
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9:48 - 9:49a racist,
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9:49 - 9:50an anti-Semite.
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9:50 - 9:52His view of history was tendentious,
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9:52 - 9:54he lied, he distorted --
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9:54 - 9:57and most importantly,
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9:57 - 9:59he did it deliberately.
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9:59 - 10:03We showed a pattern,
in over 25 different major instances. -
10:03 - 10:06Not small things -- many of us
in this audience write books, -
10:07 - 10:08are writing books;
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10:08 - 10:11we always make mistakes, that's why
we're glad to have second editions: -
10:11 - 10:12correct the mistakes.
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10:12 - 10:14(Laughter)
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10:15 - 10:18But these always moved
in the same direction: -
10:19 - 10:21blame the Jews,
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10:21 - 10:23exonerate the Nazis.
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10:24 - 10:25But how did we win?
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10:26 - 10:32What we did is follow his footnotes
back to his sources. -
10:32 - 10:34And what did we find?
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10:34 - 10:35Not in most cases,
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10:36 - 10:37and not in the preponderance of cases,
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10:37 - 10:42but in every single instance where
he made some reference to the Holocaust, -
10:42 - 10:46that his supposed evidence was distorted,
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10:46 - 10:48half-truth,
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10:48 - 10:49date-changed,
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10:49 - 10:51sequence-changed,
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10:51 - 10:53someone put at a meeting who wasn't there.
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10:53 - 10:56In other words,
he didn't have the evidence. -
10:56 - 10:58His evidence didn't prove it.
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10:58 - 11:01We didn't prove what happened.
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11:02 - 11:04We proved that what he said happened --
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11:04 - 11:07and by extension, all deniers,
because he either quotes them -
11:07 - 11:10or they get their arguments from him --
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11:10 - 11:11is not true.
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11:11 - 11:12What they claim --
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11:12 - 11:15they don't have the evidence to prove it.
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11:17 - 11:21So why is my story
more than just the story -
11:21 - 11:25of a quirky, long,
six-year, difficult lawsuit, -
11:25 - 11:30an American professor
being dragged into a courtroom -
11:30 - 11:33by a man that the court
declared in its judgment -
11:33 - 11:36was a neo-Nazi polemicist?
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11:36 - 11:37What message does it have?
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11:38 - 11:41I think in the context
of the question of truth, -
11:41 - 11:43it has a very significant message.
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11:43 - 11:45Because today,
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11:45 - 11:47as we well know,
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11:47 - 11:51truth and facts are under assault.
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11:52 - 11:55Social media, for all
the gifts it has given us, -
11:55 - 12:01has also allowed the difference
between facts -- established facts -- -
12:01 - 12:02and lies
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12:02 - 12:04to be flattened.
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12:05 - 12:06Third of all:
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12:07 - 12:08extremism.
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12:09 - 12:13You may not see Ku Klux Klan robes,
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12:13 - 12:15you may not see burning crosses,
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12:15 - 12:19you may not even hear outright
white supremacist language. -
12:19 - 12:24It may go by names: "alt-right,"
"National Front" -- pick your names. -
12:24 - 12:30But underneath, it's that same extremism
that I found in Holocaust denial -
12:30 - 12:33parading as rational discourse.
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12:35 - 12:40We live in an age
where truth is on the defensive. -
12:40 - 12:43I'm reminded of a New Yorker cartoon.
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12:43 - 12:45A quiz show recently appeared
in "The New Yorker" -
12:45 - 12:49where the host of the quiz show
is saying to one of the contestants, -
12:49 - 12:51"Yes, ma'am, you had the right answer.
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12:51 - 12:53But your opponent yelled
more loudly than you did, -
12:54 - 12:55so he gets the point."
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12:56 - 12:58What can we do?
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12:59 - 13:00First of all,
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13:00 - 13:05we cannot be beguiled
by rational appearances. -
13:05 - 13:07We've got to look underneath,
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13:07 - 13:10and we will find there the extremism.
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13:11 - 13:13Second of all,
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13:13 - 13:19we must understand
that truth is not relative. -
13:21 - 13:23Number three,
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13:23 - 13:26we must go on the offensive,
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13:26 - 13:28not the defensive.
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13:29 - 13:31When someone makes an outrageous claim,
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13:31 - 13:35even though they may hold
one of the highest offices in the land, -
13:35 - 13:37if not the world --
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13:37 - 13:38we must say to them,
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13:38 - 13:40"Where's the proof?
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13:40 - 13:43Where's the evidence?"
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13:43 - 13:45We must hold their feet to the fire.
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13:46 - 13:50We must not treat it as if their lies
are the same as the facts. -
13:51 - 13:55And as I said earlier,
truth is not relative. -
13:55 - 13:58Many of us have grown up
in the world of the academy -
13:58 - 14:00and enlightened liberal thought,
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14:00 - 14:03where we're taught
everything is open to debate. -
14:03 - 14:05But that's not the case.
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14:05 - 14:09There are certain things that are true.
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14:09 - 14:12There are indisputable facts --
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14:12 - 14:14objective truths.
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14:15 - 14:19Galileo taught it to us centuries ago.
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14:19 - 14:24Even after being forced
to recant by the Vatican -
14:24 - 14:27that the Earth moved around the Sun,
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14:27 - 14:28he came out,
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14:28 - 14:30and what is he reported to have said?
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14:30 - 14:34"And yet, it still moves."
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14:35 - 14:38The Earth is not flat.
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14:38 - 14:40The climate is changing.
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14:41 - 14:44Elvis is not alive.
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14:44 - 14:45(Laughter)
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14:45 - 14:48(Applause)
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14:48 - 14:50And most importantly,
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14:50 - 14:55truth and fact are under assault.
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14:55 - 14:57The job ahead of us,
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14:57 - 14:58the task ahead of us,
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14:58 - 15:00the challenge ahead of us
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15:00 - 15:01is great.
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15:02 - 15:04The time to fight is short.
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15:05 - 15:08We must act now.
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15:09 - 15:12Later will be too late.
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15:12 - 15:13Thank you very much.
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15:13 - 15:18(Applause)
- Title:
- Behind the lies of Holocaust denial
- Speaker:
- Deborah Lipstadt
- Description:
-
"There are facts, there are opinions, and there are lies," says historian Deborah Lipstadt, telling the remarkable story of her research into Holocaust deniers -- and their deliberate distortion of history. Lipstadt encourages us all to go on the offensive against those who assault the truth and facts. "Truth is not relative," she says.
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDTalks
- Duration:
- 15:30
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for Behind the lies of Holocaust denial | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for Behind the lies of Holocaust denial | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for Behind the lies of Holocaust denial | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for Behind the lies of Holocaust denial | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for Behind the lies of Holocaust denial | ||
Brian Greene approved English subtitles for Behind the lies of Holocaust denial | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for Behind the lies of Holocaust denial | ||
Camille Martínez accepted English subtitles for Behind the lies of Holocaust denial |