ABC Channel's Milgram Experiment remake

(upbeat music)

- [Narrator] Imagine this scenario,

you go to a prestigious university

to participate in a learning
and memory experiment.

When you arrive,

you discover that the teaching
instrument is this machine,

which seems to give electro-shocks

to a man on the other side of the wall.

As you move up the scale, he
begins to scream out in pain.

- [Experimenter] The experiment
requires that you continue.

- [Narrator] The experimenter
pressures you to go on.

Would you agree to continue
with the experiment?

- [Learner] That's all.

- [Narrator] That's the
question Stanley Milgram,

a social psychologist
at Yale University posed

in a famous series of experiments

about obedience and authority.

- Answer, false.

- [Narrator] He told his subjects,

they were part of a learning
and memory experiment.

- We want to find out just
what effect punishment

will have on learning in this situation.

- [Narrator] The man on the left

is assigned the role of teacher.

The man on the right, the
learner is an accomplice,

who's been instructed to
give lots of wrong answers.

But Milgram wasn't testing memory,

he wanted to know how much
pain an ordinary person

would inflict on a stranger

when ordered by an authority figure.

- Sentence, movie...

- [Narrator] His subjects,
the so-called teachers,

gave what they thought was
an increasingly painful shock

each time a wrong answer was given.

- On a 65 volts, time.

- [Learner] Ooh!

- [Narrator] But in fact,
there were no shocks at all.

- 180 volts.

- [Narrator] And the subject
was hearing a prerecorded voice

at each shock level.

- [Learner] I can't stand
the pain, let me out of here.

- I can't stand it, I'm
not gonna kill that man.

435 volts.

- [Narrator] In the end,
two thirds of his subjects

administered the highest,

most dangerous shock on the machine.

- Answer is woman.

On a 50 volts.

(machine buzzing)

That's it.

- [Narrator] It's been 45 years

since the Milgram experiment took place,

but would people behave
any differently today?

To find out, we teamed
up with Dr. Jerry Berger,

a social psychologist

at Santa Clara University in California.

- People have often asked
this question about,

would we find these
kinds of results today?

And some people try to
dismiss the Milgram findings

by saying, that's something that happened

back in the 60s.

People aren't like that anymore.

- [Narrator] We're about
to find out if people

have really changed.

- I'm a teacher.

Oh, man.

(man laughing)

- [Narrator] 39-year-old Troy
Schatzker is an electrician,

he's been paid $50 to participate,

and told that the money is his to keep,

even if he quits the experiment early.

He's worried about the dangers
of the electroshock machine.

- Wow, I don't think I
should shock him that hard

if he really does screw up,
there's severe shock there.

- [Experimenter] Yeah, there are 25...

- I'm just gonna go and get my shot gun.

- [Narrator] In the room next door,

Troy watches as the learner
gets strapped into his chair.

His anxiety rises when he
hears the next scripted line.

- I should probably bring up
that a couple of years ago

at Kaiser they diagnosed
a mild heart condition.

I'm really not too worried about it.

It's not that serious.

- Well you should know
that while the shocks

that we'll be using today may be painful,

they're not dangerous.

- Okay.

- Milgram intended that
exchange to set up a conflict

in the subject's mind.

A choice between the
health of the learner,

and the authority of the experimenter.

- So when he gets them
right, I get shocked.

(Troy laughing)

- [Narrator] Now Troy starts
reading Ken the word pairs

he's supposed to memorize.

- Blue girl, nice day,
fat neck, number one.

- [Narrator] Then, the test begins.

- Blue, boy, girl, grass, hat.

- [Narrator] The learner must decide

which of the four words
is the correct match.

At first, everything goes smoothly.

- Correct.

- I was confident that he was
doing really good at first

and then it started looking bad.

- At 75 volts, Troy hears
the first sign of trouble.

- Soft, rug, pillow, hair, grass.

(machine buzzing)

Incorrect.

75 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- I could actually hear them
next door, going oh, oh.

And he kept getting things wrong.

(machine buzzing)

Incorrect.

90 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- [Narrator] At 105 volts,
he's clearly uneasy.

- Number 10.

I got a little moist on my forehead there.

I wasn't comfortable.

I can't tell you why I
listened to him and kept going,

I should have just said no.

- The correct word was duck.

- [Narrator] Near the end,

he's almost willing Ken to
learn the right word pairs

through the wall.

- Horse.

(machine buzzing)

Incorrect.

135 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- [Narrator] Troy starts
laughing nervously.

- The correct word was, woman.

Rock, house.

- [Narrator] At 150 volts.

(machine buzzing)

- Incorrect.

150 volts.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

Get me out of here.

I told you I have heart trouble.

- [Narrator] Will Troy listen

as the learner begs him to stop,

or will he follow Brian's orders?

- Tell him the correct
word, start with white.

- The correct word was white horse.

- [Experimenter] The next
item, please continue.

- The next item is sad.

- [Narrator] He obeys the orders.

- Space.

- Why didn't you stop?

- I saw him getting strapped in.

And there were just like little...

I mean, he could have just,
if he was in that much pain

he could have just tore himself up.

- Why are you putting it on him

and not you or the experimenter?

- I was just doing my job.

I was doing what I was supposed to do.

75 volts.

- So I guess the influence
of having the conductor

of the experiment right there next to me

and telling me to keep going,
had a lot to do with it.

- Cool, day...

- [Narrator] We tested
18 men and 22 women.

- [Berger] Very often, the
first time they hear a noise

from the other room.

(machine buzzing)

- Wrong.

90 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- The typical response is to
turn towards the experimenter.

And if not say something,
at least give a look

that says, what should I do?

And of course, when an expert
tells them, not a problem,

this is nothing to worry about, continue,

the rational thing to do in
that situation is to continue.

- He's not a finger in the
face, he's not a drill sergeant.

- No, you don't have to be threatening.

The power that he has in this situation

comes in part because
he's an authority figure

and we're all trained a little bit

to obey authority figures.

But also he's the expert
in this situation.

He's the one that knows
about this machine.

(machine buzzing)

- Incorrect.

105 volts.

- [Narrator] In the end,

almost two thirds of the
men agreed to administer

the highest shock.

- [Narrator] For the past 30 years,

there've been severe restrictions

on using humans in social
psychology research.

To avoid putting subjects
under too much stress,

Dr. Berger made a significant
change to our experiment.

- In this experiment you stopped
at 150 make-believe volts,

in Milgram they went much higher.

- We stopped for ethical reasons.

We couldn't put people through the agony,

the Milgram's participants went through.

- Go on with the procedure please teacher.

(man shouting)

- [Narrator] There's
no way to know for sure

whether any of our subjects
would have continued

farther up the scale.

However, Milgram's
research may offer a clue.

- Don't the man's health
helped mean anything?

- [Experimenter] Whether
the learner likes it or not

we must...

- But he might be dead in there.

- When we look back at
Milgram's data, what we find is,

that point, that 150 mill
point that we stopped at

is something of a point of no return.

- 150 volts.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

- If people go past that 150 mark,

there's an 80% chance they're going to go

all the way to be in...

- [Narrator] How many men would agree

to electroshock a stranger

when ordered to do so by our experimenter?

- Incorrect answer, 90 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- [Narrator] Ultimately,
more than two thirds

of the men we tested agreed to
administer the highest shock.

Which made us wonder, would
the kinder, gentler sex

be more responsive to the cries of pain

on the other side of the wall.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

Get me out of here.

- I think women are more
compassionate beings,

more emotional beings,

more likely to respond
to an emotional outburst.

- [Narrator] At first, women
did seem far more concerned

about the effects of pain on the learner.

- Ignore him.

- [Experimenter] Okay.

I take care of people, I don't,
you know, it's like pain,

you know, normally.

- I am assuming you're really
not going to give someone

a heart attack.

- I'm seeing stuff go all the way up here,

do we ever get up this far?

Cause this is danger.

- [Learner] Right.

- [Chris] Severe shock.

- [Narrator] Chris is 50,

she's married and has
a 19 year old daughter.

- When it starts to get up
in here, that labeling is...

- Well we don't know
how far it's going to go

because it all depends on how
the learner learns the words.

- Right.

Good luck.

Number three.

- [Narrator] At first, she
doesn't seem too concerned.

- Man, lady, tub, neck.

(machine buzzing)

That's incorrect.

- [Narrator] By the way, Chris
is a seventh grade teacher.

Number eight, soft, rug,
pillow, hair, grass.

(machine buzzing)

- Oh, incorrect.

- [Narrator] Then at 75 volts,

we notice something strange.
- 75 volts

- [Learner] Ah!

A smile.

- I teach kids.

So I can kind of tell
shock from not shock.

So when somebody just kind of goes,

ah, oh no, I have to write
a five paragraph essay, ah.

I don't pay much attention to that.

So I listen to see if the kid
is really surprised or upset.

And you always hear a little
(gasps softly) beforehand.

I didn't hear the (gasps softly).

So that's why I smiled.

- Pretending to be hurt.

- Yeah.

Playing with it.

- [Narrator] She continues to move

deliberately up the row of switches.

- 90 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

(machine buzzing)

Oh, I'm sorry, that's incorrect.

105 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

(machine buzzing)

- Ooh.

I'm sorry.

What goes with duck?

120.

I've had that shock myself.

- [Learner] Ah!

- So you're thinking now?

- This isn't good.

I've been reassured that there
would be no pain involved.

- And that's making you think what?

- That I'm not sure I
believe the professor,

and that I'm going to
think carefully about

what I'm hearing as I'm going along.

(machine buzzing)

- Well I'm sorry, it's a white horse.

This says 150 volts.

Deep breath.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

Get me out of here.

I told you I have heart trouble.

My heart's starting to bother me now.

Get me out of your please.

My heart is starting to bother me.

I refuse to go on, let me out.

(indistinct murmur)

- Please go on, the next item is sad.

- Okay.

Now he said that he had a heart problem.

- Remember while the shocks
may be painful to them,

they're not dangerous.

We know that.

- Okay.

We're aware of that,

and there's not going to be any lawsuit

from his medical facility, right?

- Well if anything happens
to him, I am responsible.

- That's what I needed to know.

- [Experimenter] Okay.

- Why is that what you needed to know?

- I needed to know that he
heard what the gentleman said,

and I needed to know that he knew,

and that he was responsible,

and that he was aware
of what was happening.

- You heard the man say my heart hurts.

- I did.

- And just having the guy
in the lab coat saying,

keep going, it's fine, I'm
telling you it's fine, go on.

Somewhat divorced you from
your own decision-making power?

- Oh sure.

It's just like when I'm told

to administer the state
tests for hours on and.

- You're doing your job.

- Doing my job.

- [Narrator] She told us later,

she didn't believe she would
have shocked the learner

in the danger zone.

- [Man] What were the differences
between men and women?

- The argument has always been that

well, women are going to be more empathic.

They're going to be more caring
and concerned about the man

on the other side of the wall.

- Grass, duck...

- [Narrator] And yet some
women showed little emotion

during the experiment.

- Wrong.

120 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- Wrong.

135 volts.

- Didn't go all the way
down, please go ahead.

- [Learner] Ah!

- Okay.

- Wrong.

150 volts.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

Get me out of here.

I told you I have heart trouble.

- White horse.

- [Learner] My heart is
starting to bother me now.

- Continue with the next item.

- [Narrator] Others seemed disturbed

as the experimenter
pressures them to continue.

- [Experimenter] The next word is sad.

- I can't continue if I
hear this man screaming

and he wants it to stop.

- It's absolutely essential
that you continue.

- But why If we hear him screaming.

- Whether the learner likes it or not,

we must continue till he's learnt

all the word pairs correctly.

Okay.

Sad, please.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

Get me out here.

- [Narrator] Both of these women

went on to give the
highest shock of 150 volts

to the learner.

- One could argue that it's very difficult

for a woman to be assertive.

Okay?

And many women in our society

have a more difficult time saying no

to the male experimenter.

- You had a very diverse
situation here, women,

different ethnic backgrounds.

- It's reasonable to guess

that culture would come to this,

and the culture might play a role.

There are some societies,

we call them collectivist cultures,

in which people are more geared
toward doing what is good

for the group.

- [Learner] My heart is
starting to bother me now,

get me out of here please.

- [Experimenter] Please continue.

- White horse.

- [Learner] My heart is
starting to bother me.

- Set.
- [Learner] I refuse to go on.

- Face.

- In Asia, like how much
(indistinct) from parents,

as well as the commencements from schools

that are actually kind of common.

- 90 volts.

- [Narrator] We tested 22 women.

- [Learner] Ah!

- [Narrator] And were
surprised to find that women

were more likely to continue
to the highest shock.

73% of women, 65% of the men.

- The voltage is 150 volts.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

- [Narrator] And we began
to notice a pattern.

The majority of people who
continued to follow orders,

refuse to take responsibility
for the learner safety.

- It's not my responsibility.

You all brought this.

We're volunteers.

- Get your control lab experiments.

- [Experimenter] I see.

Okay.

- Just i can't do it for you.

- Well, I just flipped the switch.

I mean, he chose to be there
himself to take the shocks,

and that was his choice.

- If responsibility can
be placed elsewhere,

diffused among other people,
then we can avoid any blame,

any regret, any of those things
that happen after the fact.

The people who deferred the responsibility

didn't feel good about it,

but it allowed them to continue

because it really wasn't
them making the decisions,

it was the experimenter.

- Two, nice, day.

- [Narrator] In our
control room. Dr. Berger

closely watches every
reaction to the learner.

- 150 volts.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

Get me out of here.

I told you I have heart trouble.

- Can I ask him if he's okay?

Are you okay?

- [Narrator] Are there clues that indicate

whether certain people
might be more compliant

with authority.

- Wrong.

90 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- [Narrator] When you were watching,

how good were you at guessing?

Oh this person may go, or this may not be.

- It was impossible to tell.

I tried to guess.

I tried to look for signs, body language,

anything to try to guess
who's going to continue

and who's going to stop.

And that tells me that it's not that

there are certain kinds of people

who are obviously different
from the rest of us,

it tells me that probably
all of us are capable.

- [Narrator] 46 Year old Fred

is a self-described non-conformist.

He's married, has no children,

and works as a software
engineer at an internet company.

- That is incorrect.

75 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- [Narrator] After hearing
the first scream of pain,

Fred's face shows no emotion.

- [Narrator] What at this point
is keeping you in the chair?

- It's two consenting adults
saying we're going to do this.

Now, until some point,
one of us has to say stop.

- So you put all of the responsibility

in terms of when was the right
quit point on the learner.

- For quite a lot of this, yes.

I mean, there is going through my head.

How long are we going to do this?

- [Learner] Ah!

- I am waiting for the
other person to say stop.

I don't know where I would
have just said stop on my own.

- [Narrator] Suddenly at 150 volts,

he meets his moral tipping point.

- That is incorrect.

150 volts.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

Get me out of hear.

- He said that's all, we're
not doing anymore of this.

- [Experimenter] Okay,
can you please read him

the correct word pair..

- The correct word pair was white horse.

- Please continue.

The next item is sad.

- [Learner] Let me out.

- No.

He has said no joy, I'm
not doing this anymore.

- Well, I want to remind you though

that the shocks may be painful to him,

but they're not dangerous.

It doesn't matter, I'm not a sadist.

He has said no more, he
is not agreeing to this,

I'm not agreeing to this.

- Okay.

The experiment requires that you continue

with the next item of sad.

- The experiment allows me
to walk out at any time,

and I will walk out if
you want to push this.

- Oh, well that is correct.

It's absolutely essential
that you continue.

Okay.

Remember whether the
learner likes it or not.

- Teacher doesn't like
it, he's walking out.

- Okay.

- We can discontinue this patient.

That's just fine.

- Okay.

- [Experimenter] I understand.

Once somebody says no, it's no.

- [Experimenter] Okay.

- I mean, this was obviously at this point

now wrong to go on.

It's not even an intellectual debate.

- Well, aren't we supposed
to do what we're told?

- Do you have a brain?

Shouldn't you use it too.

If somebody walks up to you and says,

the blackboard is white, and
they've got on a lab coat,

do you believe them?

No, you've got your own eyes.

I mean, you look at Nuremberg.

I was just following orders.

I'm sorry, we're still gonna line you up

and shoot you for war crimes.

That's not an excuse.

- [Narrator] Fred is talking
about the Nuremberg trials

of Nazi war criminals
who defended themselves

saying they were just following orders.

- I had to obey.

I had only learned the life of a soldier.

- [Narrator] During the war,

Adolf Eichmann deported
millions of Jews to death camps.

He was finally arrested in 1961.

Three months later, Milgram
began his famous experiment,

fascinated by how such
an ordinary looking man

could commit such heinous acts.

More recently, these
graphic photos and videos

of the abusive prisoners
at Abu Ghraib Prison

raised disturbing questions

about the interrogation
techniques during the war.

Why did so many American soldiers

agree to abuse and humiliate
these defenseless prisoners?

The soldier's name is Lindy England.

Her excuse for abusing prisoners

and echo from the Milgram experiment.

- We don't feel like we were doing

things that we weren't supposed to

because we were told to do them.

- [Narrator] Lindy England
was sentenced to three years

for her crimes, and
dishonorably discharged

from the military.

The excuse of following orders

has never been upheld in court.

- Is there an analogy here to
what we saw with Nazi Germany?

- What we find when we have situations

where people act in an atrocious ways,

people are in a situation

where they're not quite sure
what they're supposed to do.

Okay?

That there's an escalation.

They start small, they
move up to more and more,

more difficult and more challenging,

and more questionable behaviors.

- The next one will be at 150 volts.

- [Narrator] Why do you think you listened

to what the experimenter said?

Why do you think that was...

- He was in charge of him and he told me,

go ahead and continue with him

because I'm under his control too.

I'm doing what he's telling me to do.

- [Narrator] During the experiment

only a third of our subjects
refused to continue.

- It's essential that you continue.

- I can't continue at this point.

- Okay, you have no choice.

You must continue.

- No, I do have a choice,
and I'm not going to anyway.

- You can hold me down.

- Whether the learner likes it or not,

it would be helpful if you continued.

- But I'd rather not.

- [Narrator] So what made them stop,

when the majority went on.

We noticed that people who
resisted early in the experiment

seemed less likely to continue to the end.

This man tried to quit after
he heard the third cry of pain.

- Calm down.

- [Narrator] A second clue,

all the subjects who refuse to obey

the experimenters final orders

told us they felt directly
responsible for their actions.

- I would have felt that
I would have hit switch

that would've killed him.

If he died, I would feel
a deep responsibility.

- April 9th, 2004.

Evening rush hour at the local McDonald's

where assistant manager, Donna Summers

suddenly gets a strange
call about a theft.

- He said he was a police officer.

And I was talking to him
about something being stolen.

And that one of the employees had done it.

- [Narrator] High school
senior, Louise Ogburn

was working an extra shift

when her manager calls her
in to the tiny back office.

- And she said,

well, they said it was a little
girl that looked like you

and (indistinct) the McDonald's uniform,

so i had to meet you.

- [Narrator] It was the
beginning of a terrifying ordeal

caught on videotape

here on one of the McDonald's
surveillance cameras.

The man on the phone ordered Summers

to confiscate the girl's clothing

and do a strip search.

- I honestly thought
he was a police officer

and what I was doing was the right thing.

- [Narrator] The caller told Donna Summers

to get her fiance, Walter Knicks,

to watch the teenager during
the restaurant's rush hour.

He then ordered Knicks to
force her to do jumping jacks,

hit her, and even perform a sexual act.

Naked and vulnerable, Louise Ogburn says,

she never even tried to escape.

- When an adult tells you to do something,

that's what you do.

You don't argue.

So I just make sure you
on the hand, it wasn't.

- [Narrator] The story made
headlines as a real life example

of the Milgram experiment.

Why did these people
follow the bizarre orders

of a stranger on the phone?

Social psychologist, Dr. Phil Zimbardo

was a consultant in the McDonald's case.

- Usually, obeying authority is good.

We obey our parents, and
we obey our teachers.

The problem is, it's fine
to obey just authority,

it's not fine to obey unjust authority.

- [Narrator] But is there anything

that would stop people
from obeying the orders

of an authority figure.

(machine buzzing)

- Incorrect.

You three must decide the
punishment to be administered.

- [Narrator] Milgram found,

when he used a team of two accomplices

who both refused to continue,

90% of his subjects
followed their example.

So we wonder,

would compliance with the
experimenters orders decrease

if we added an accomplice
to our own experiment?

- So you can turn that word sheet over.

- [Narrator] On the left,
the real subject, Michelle,

on the right, Tammy, our new
accomplice who starts the test.

- 75 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- As she started going up the scale,

and then she started
reacting and I thought,

okay, well maybe she's
just holding it too long.

Cause I did notice she would
hold it down a little bit.

- [Learner] Ah!

- [Narrator] But at 90 volts,

Tammy pretends to be too
disturbed to continue.

- I don't think I can do this.

- Teacher two, would you please take over.

- [Narrator] With little apparent emotion,

Michelle takes over.

- The correct word pair is cool, cave.

That's incorrect.

105 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

120 volts.

- [Learner] Ah!

- I felt the pressure
of wow, it's up to me,

I'm the last one.

Somebody has to keep the experiment going.

- [Learner] Ah! That's all.

Get me out of here.

I told you I have heart trouble.

- Please continue, the correct
work pair is white horse.

- He said he can't go on.

I can't do this.

- [Narrator] She is visibly breaking down.

- The correct pairing is white horse.

I'm sorry.

I can't continue.
- [Experimenter] Okay.

- I started shaking.

It wasn't the very last word.

I mean, that was my breaking point,

but the one before that,
it was getting pretty bad.

- [Narrator] At 150 volts,
she refuses to continue

despite the experimenters orders.

But Michelle is in the minority.

In one of the most surprising
findings of our experiment,

we discovered that even with a moral guide

sitting in the same room as our subject,

there was little decrease in compliance

with the orders of an authority figure.

63% of our subjects continued
to electroshock the learner

even after our accomplice protested.

That's only a slight drop from the 70%

in our original experiment.

- Milgram believed that if you
could find some other people

who also wanted to reject the authority,

that was your best bet for
breaking out of the conformity.

- I suspect if we'd had
three or four people

stop the experiment,

it would've been very difficult
for people to continue

because they,

at that point would feel that continuing

was the abnormal response.

- [Narrator] And in the
real life application

of Milgram's experiment,
the McDonald's case,

Walter Knicks was sentenced
to five years in prison

for sexual abuse.

Donna Summers was fired
and pleaded no contest

to a misdemeanor charge.

Her justification for her actions

was another disturbing echo
from the Milgram experiment.

- I was following the instructions

of what a police officer was telling me.

You weren't there, you
didn't hear the phone call.

You have no idea what you would
have done in that situation.

You think you do, but you don't know.

- [Narrator] Since the 70s,

the use of humans and scientific research

has been restricted.

In order to redo the Milgram experiment,

ABC News' protocol was vetted

by the American psychological association.

Clinical psychologists
pre-screened our subjects

for psychological stability.

We also told participants

they could pull out of the
experiment at any time.

And that deception might be involved.

- Do you think you can
learn these types of things

about behavior without
testing human beings?

- You ask people, what
do you think you'll do?

What do you think the
average person would do?

We're often wrong.

The only way to really know for sure

is to put people in that situation,

and find out what they really will do.