BC428 Unfolding the Laundry Session 2

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Therapist: Okay, so [inaudible.] We are going to meet for probably

an hour and fifteen minutes or something like that.

And I am supposed, in an hour and fifteen minutes,

to know who you are, and to come with some idea of-

- it is very very bright, of how you can be-

- more harmonious, complex, better than you are now.

So you [inaudible] [laughter.]

Who wants to start, and you need to tell me why did you come to Valerie and why did you stay with him?

Mother: I will. [Laughter]

Mother: We came to Valerie because I had hit

a point in my life where Jeff and I were playing some pretty destroying games with each other,

and I had reached a crisis point to where I was

either going to send him to live on the moon

or away to boarding school or something had to change-

- Therapist: Who was going to go to boarding school,

you or him? Mother: Him. [Laughter]

At that time I probably would've gone too.

But it reached a point to where we needed some

kind of help in order to not destroy each other.

Our relationship is not- - uh,

there is love there, but there's also a lot of,

of hurt there. And um, we came to Valeri at that point because-

- Therapist: Both of you? Mother: Well,

actually it was Bob and Jeff and I went to a session for-

- to get some ideas on what we could do at that point.

And it was suggested that, by Valerie at that point,

because I was in crisis, that I see her on a weekly basis and she would see the family,

everybody who happens to be in the house at that time,

on a monthly basis- - Therapist: It included you?

Mother: Mm hmm. And that's what we started doing,

and we are still going, because there still are some strides that need to be made,

but I think there have been a lot of really-

- Therapist: Okay. So, tell me.

How do you see it? Father: I pushed to get them going someplace,

because I was pretty much at my wit's end.

I had manipulated their relationship and manipulated

my relationship with Jeff every possible way that I knew how to get some kind of resolution.

Therapist: What is what you wanted?

In the best of all worlds, what did you want to change?

Let me, let me just go and bring-

- and bring that so that you can put the flowers in it.

Mother: Oh, fantastic, thank you.

[Laughter] Therapist: Okay. What,

what do you want- - Father: My sense of their relationship was that

the two of them were so wrapped up in whatever this game was that they play,

and I don't know other language to use.

That it precluded the possibly of Donna and I having a real good relationship of our own,

because there was so much energy that was going into them.

That relationship was characterized by Jeff is doing this and Jeff is doing that,

and then followed by my awareness of Jeff was,

in fact, doing that and doing other things,

and it was all just kind of out of control.

I should suggest that my relationship with each one of my children,

and I include all of them in that category,

has gone through similar kinds of stages.

There's always been- - there's been some need for me to play a policeman and redirect their efforts.

Therapist: A policeman between whom and whom?

Father: The role of policeman with everybody

who happens to be involved with the family at that point.

Therapist: Okay. How do you see that role?

Your name is [inaudible]? Bobby: Bobby.

Therapist: Bobby, okay. You two,

you are both, both of you? Bobby: Mm hmm.

Therapist: Okay. How do you see?

Because, apparently you, how do you call name?

Bobby: How do I- - ? Therapist: How do you call him,

Dad, or- - Bobby: Yeah. Therapist: Oh,

you call him Dad. And you also call him Dad?

Okay. Apparently Dad felt that your mom and Jeff were in some kind of-

- some kind of thing. I don't know what.

What's happening? Tell me, because they are such complicated talkers that I don't understand what they are saying.

[Laughter] So I want straight talking.

Father: Maybe the wrong family.

Therapist: Are you a straight talker or not?

Bobby: I'll try. Therapist: Okay.

Bobby: Um. [Clears throat]

There's been a lot of continuous battling.

Almost like, who's going to be in charge of the family?

And with Dad being gone a lot,

it seemed like most of it was going on between Mom and Jeff,

and then when Dad got home, he was in charge.

When he wasn't home, it was up to Mom and Jeff to decide who was going to be in charge.

[Mother chuckles] Therapist: What were you doing?

Bobby: Staying gone. Therapist: Huh?

Bobby: Staying gone. Stay at school,

go to a friend's house. Therapist: That means,

you- - you move out? Bobby: Well,

I tried to stay- - no, I was still living at home,

but I tried to stay gone as much as I could.

Therapist: So that you were giving the ring to these two people?

Bobby: Yeah. Therapist: But you were-

- Bobby: But whenever I walked in the house,

I was right in the middle of it also.

Therapist: Right in the middle?

Or are you just an onlooker?

Bobby: I was in the middle of it.

I'd get drawn into it real fast.

Like if Mom and Jeff were arguing,

I'd get into the argument really fast.

Because everybody starts yelling at everybody.

Therapist: Jeff, is he a pain in the neck?

Is he, in your, uh- - he takes Mom's side?

Jeff: Sometimes. Lot of time I will.

Therapist: What are they talking about?

It seem as if you're a pest. What kind of pest are you?

[Laughter] Jeff: Uh- - Therapist: Is that what they are talking about or no?

Jeff: Yeah. They, see- - it's what my dad always says.

He says I'm a master manipulator.

Therapist: Who says that? Jeff: My Dad.

Therapist: You are a master manipulator?

Jeff: Yeah. Therapist: Uh-huh.

Jeff: I can manipulate very well.

[Chuckles] Therapist: Are you doing a job on me now?

Jeff: No. [Lots of laughter]

Jeff: Uh. They um- - Therapist: What does he mean by that?

Jeff: When- - uh. Um. I guess,

me and my mom would get in fights.

And, I'll manipulate my way out of it.

Or I'll ask her for something,

like to go out for a couple hours with my friends or at night,

when my dad's not home and she'll say no.

"Well come on, Mom, " you know.

Keep antagonizing her. Therapist: What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with that? I don't understand why is that wrong?

What would you do that is wrong?

You want to go out? Jeff: I keep asking her.

Therapist: Yeah. Jeff: And I keep fighting her.

And I fight until I get my own way.

And once I get my own way, I'm happy about it.

Therapist: Well what's wrong with that?

I would, I tried that also. Sometimes I succeed,

sometimes I don't. Uh, is the wrong thing that you're always succeeding or what?

Jeff: The wrong thing is that I'm always trying

and I'm not getting along with my mom half the time.

Therapist: Talk me some more so that I understand what are you talking about.

Can you talk a little bit with my mom?

So that maybe you can describe together some situation?

And maybe a situation in which you also know what happened,

so that I can get some idea of how you see things?

You two are not part of the family,

really. You are what, observers?

That means you are part of the family but you don't live there?

Chris: Yeah. Therapist: Have you accent this thing,

or- - [Both talking at once]

Therapist: Huh? You used to be part of the family?

Chris: Yeah, I moved out a couple years ago,

but I did live with this entire family.

Therapist: Oh, for how long?

Chris: Two, three years? Therapist: Oh,

okay. So you know. And what about you?

David: Um, oh God. Mother: In and out.

David: Yeah, in and out, pretty much.

Summers, and- - Therapist: Okay.

Please, let them start. And Andrea,

you had been with this family for how long?

Andrea: I've been for about a year.

Therapist: You have been with them for a year?

Andrea: Yeah. Therapist: Okay.

So you five start discussing some issue that-

- consult each other so that you can tell me-

- I can see, uh- - Mother: You mean like act out one of our-

- Therapist: No, first start discussing it.

And then I will find out something.

I want to concrete this. You are a generalist.

And so I just get- - I want to understand that in a much more concrete way.

[Laughter] >> Everybody start at once now.

Father: Why don't we talk about,

uh- - [inaudible] let's talk about the tools,

or, or- - the jobs, because that specifically relates to Jeff.

Uh, I'm trying to think of a specific incident in which we were all involved.

Kind of feeding that back in.

Why don't we talk about the jobs themselves?

And somehow how clothes keep getting shoved,

or have been shoved under beds,

that kind of thing. Mother: Or in drawers.

Father: What do you think about that?

Is that- - is that something that's going to let us all participate in that a little bit?

Jeff: That's fine. Mother: Sure.

[Laughter] >> Why not! Father: Did I push anybody's button with that?

Maybe, uh- - Mother: Well, one of the things that we have at our house is,

is that we have- - the kids each have chores to do.

And we live in an upstairs house,

so what we have done until Andrea moved back in a few weeks ago,

there were the two kids, and one would do the upstairs chores and one would do the downstairs chores.

And, it does seem to be a big issue with Jeff,

mostly, although Bobby has gotten in on it a couple of times too,

that one of the downstairs jobs is to fold the clothes when they come out of the dryer.

And I think what Bob is referring to is when you're missing all your clothes,

so you go downstairs and you find them either

shoved under the bed or shoved in a closet or shoved in a drawer so that he can then say that,

yes I did my job, and you go down and check and there's no clothes on his bed so the job has been done.

But in essence, what he does,

90, about 90 percent of the time,

maybe 80, and that he shoves them in his drawer.

Well, first he shoved them under his bed and we found those,

and then um, I even found them shoved in the hall closet one time.

But this is a real- - one of the things that seemed to-

- Therapist: Is that, is that-

- he does the clothing of everybody?

Or only- - Mother: Right. Right.

Therapist: Okay. Mother: His job is to fold the clothes after they've been washed and come out of the dryer.

And it's everybody's. And he just-

- Therapist: And who puts, who puts the clothes in the dryer?

Who puts the clothing in the washing machine?

Mother: Usually Bob or I. Father: It can vary between one or the other of us.

Therapist: Uh-huh. And then what's your job?

Jeff: My job is to check the washing machine.

If there's clothes that need to be dry,

put them in the dryer. If they're clothes that need,

that are already dried, take 'em,

fold 'em, and if there's clothes that need to be washed,

wash them. Wash 'em. And every week that,

that changes because I'll have the downstairs for one week and then the upstairs for one week.

And starting Sunday I'll have the downstairs.

Therapist: What's the problem?

Father: The problem is that,

that there's been a job assigned that is not

being completed in a manner that's satisfactory to me and I believe to Donna.

Mother: Mm hmm. Father: And we had talked to Jeff about it,

and we've done, and I have done substantially-

- Therapist: Can you talk a little bit louder?

Father: I'm sorry. I have talked to Jeff about it,

and I have done substantially more than just talk to him about it,

uh, I've spanked him, I've threatened him,

I've considered putting him on a plane to Texas

because it's been a continuing problem for some period of time.

And I have been unable to convince him to finish the job.

You know, that absolutely nothing is accomplished other

than to incur my anger by taking the clothes and hiding them under the bed.

And that seems to be symptomatic of several areas,

but that's specifically what's taking place.

Therapist: And do you get away with it,

Jeff? That means, what happened was you,

you put the clothing under the bed,

what happened then? Jeff: Usually get,

they'd get thrown on my bed at night-

- Therapist: Who does that?

Jeff: Whoever takes 'em out.

Bobby. Andy. Mom or Dad. They'll throw 'em on my bed.

So um, I won't go down in my bedroom and check or anything,

like I'm supposed to. And at night when I go to bed,

I won't want to fold 'em. So I just set 'em on the couch or something and then in the morning,

I get up, I get up, and I don't have time to do my vacuuming,

and then to fold my clothes and then get off to school on time,

so I just usually shove them in the drawer or something,

until I get home and then most the time I'll fold 'em.

But by the time I get home, my bed's probably standing up on end,

my couch is probably standing up and all my stuff is tore up.

Therapist: Who does that? Jeff: My Dad.

It's like he sees through things because he can always find it.

[Loud laughter] Therapist: [inaudible]

Jeff: He always, he always can find it.

Every time I do that, because it don't really do it much anymore,

'cause he'll walk in and, if he's missing a pair of his shorts,

you know, my- - my room's the first place he'll check.

And it's usually the place they are.

[Mother chuckles] Therapist: So what do you do,

you come to your room and your bed is standing up,

so what happens? Jeff: I vacuum my room,

I clean my room, I fix it all back up,

fold the clothes, and then do my job regular for a week.

And then again I'll- - Therapist: So what's wrong with that system?

It seem to me that you had found a way of having everything functioning okay.

What- - do you want to change that?

[Mother chuckles] Father: Well I'd have to disagree with the word okay.

Everything functions, but it's not okay when I'm required to continue

reinforcing behavior that I think he should be

able to accept and recognize his responsibility to the family.

It is functioning. But it isn't okay.

Mother: And I, I think one of the things that really bothers me the most about it is,

instead of going down and checking and just saying,

"Jeff, did you do your job, " and he lies about it and says yes,

that the lying is the part that gets to me the most.

And the clothes- - Therapist: Is Bob very strong?

Your husband? Mother: Yes. Therapist: Means he can pull the bed and-

- Mother: Yeah, he's strong that way [observers chuckle] and he's strong personality-wise also.

Therapist: In what way? Mother: Um,

[giggles] he's very strong, he's-

- uh, tends to take control. I'm pretty wishy-washy,

and I needed [giggling] somebody strong,

that was good. Therapist: That means,

you selected him because he- -

Mother: Mmm, no that- - Therapist: -

-he initiates things? Mother: No that was not really one of the things I thought about when I selected him,

but I- - [laughter] [all talking at once]

- - and I am not real consistent with the kids,

and I am not a real strong, that-

- a strong, uh, what is the word?

Disciplinarian. I- - Therapist: Let's imagine that Bob would not do this strong man act that he does.

What, what do you do? How, how do you-

- could- - apparently you travel?

Because- - Father: I think Bobby was just making reference to being gone during the day.

Therapist: Uh-huh. Okay. So you are away working.

You have a job, you finish, you come back home,

what, six-o'clock or- - Father: It depends,

I sometimes have evening appointments,

that kind of thing. I'm involved in real estate finance,

so sometimes I meet with clients in the evenings.

Therapist: So when he's away,

how do you manage that? Mother: Not very well.

[Giggling] Therapist: But how?

Mother: Yeah, when something comes up that I need to handle,

like with Bobby, I can just say yes,

no, or anything and it sticks.

99 percent of the time, I don't have a problem.

But when it comes to Jeff, he pushes all my buttons.

Therapist: Ask Jeff, now trying to understand,

why doesn't he hear you and Bob does?

Mother: Ask Jeff? Therapist: Yeah.

Mother: Why don't you hear me when I say no,

Jeff? Jeff: I do. [Scattered giggles]

Mother: Why don't you react to that?

Jeff: 'cause I don't like- -

I- - Mother: Is it the fact that I tell you no that you don't like,

or is it just the fact that you've got to keep it-

- the turbulence going all the time?

Jeff: The fact that you say no.

Mother: You hate being said no to that much?

Jeff: [Sighs.] Yeah. Because it's always-

- most the time now, it seems to me,

that everything I do, it's always no.

Mother: Well I'm trying to be a little bit more

consistent and not give in after the tenth no and say yes.

Jeff: But it's always no. Mother: I'm getting better.

[Laughs] Do you think that the things that you-

- the times that I say no that you're really being put upon?

I don't feel that I say, most of the things that you kids want to do,

I don't feel that we really restrict you that much.

I don't think when I say no to you that it's unreasonable.

Is it just the fact that you're not in control

and when I tell you no you don't get your own way,

or is there something else behind it?

Jeff: Well- - Mother: I haven't figured that out yet,

I can't tell what it is. Sometimes I think it's just because I tell you no and that just pisses you off.

Because you don't get your own way.

And other ways, I feel like it's because you just want some attention.

And it's usually negative attention.

Jeff: Because you piss me off.

Mother: That's it? You just flat don't like to be told no?

Jeff: Well, for some things,

you tell me no, you know, because you have rights to.

But I mean, like if I wanted to go over to Chris's house,

or if I wanted to go see someone,

and I have the half-hour or something,

and I ask for a half-hour or something,

you'll say no. A lot of the time.

And then once in a while, half and half,

50 percent of the time you'll say no,

50 percent of the time you'll say yes.

Mother: I get the sense sometimes when I tell

you no that you feel that if you keep hammering at me long enough I'm going to give in.

Because that's usually the way I've always been.

Jeff: That works out sometimes.

Mother: I mean do you have that thought in your head?

I've always wanted to ask you that.

Jeff: Sometimes. Every once in a while.

Not all the time. Mother: The thought is there that if you say it enough times,

I'll give in? Jeff: Sometimes.

Sometimes I'll even do it and I don't even know I do it.

Mother: Just a habit? Jeff: Yeah.

Mother: Sometimes when you tell me no,

I even explain to you why, thinking that just saying no would really tick you off,

so if I tell you why I feel no,

that then maybe you would accept it better.

That my opinion of why you shouldn't do something would be more acceptable.

Is that better when I do that?

If I give you a reason why no instead of just

saying no then do you think that I might be hearing your side of it more?

Jeff: Probably. Instead of just,

[imitating mother] "no, forget it,

that's it, okay? I'm the mom.

That's the way it is. " [Mother giggles.]

Mother: That's the way it is.

Therapist: Can you talk with Bob now,

about anything that you want to.

Talk together. Select whatever you want to talk about.

Mother: Talk to Bobby. Therapist: Yeah.

Mother: Hi. [Chuckle] Therapist: You had-

- how long were you with the kids after your,

uh, separation from your husband?

Mother: After my divorce? Therapist: Yeah,

before- - Mother: Um, I was separated from my husband probably for a little over a year.

He was in Texas before I even filed for divorce.

And then I was single for about a year,

and then I remarried again. Not to Bob,

Bob is my third husband. And I was married to that man,

and he was in the house with the kids for about,

two- - [Male voice]: Three.

Mother: Two and a half years.

And then I was single with the kids alone again

for about a year and a half before Bob and I got married.

But Bobby, right from the very beginning,

he was about seven when his father and I split up.

When his father left, before,

that first part before we got divorced.

Jeffrey was still quite young.

He was about a year and a half.

And Bobby and I have always had a relationship.

I think now, in looking at it,

I think he has stuffed 90 percent of it all.

But he has always been- - I can tell Bobby no,

or I don't think I have to tell Bobby no that much.

Do I? Bobby: You don't say no that much.

Mother: It's just been, we have a real good relationship.

We share a lot. Um, I'm trying to think of some times that I do tell you no.

When I tell him no, he accepts that.

I think he tended to take over being the male of the family.

Therapist: [inaudible] Mother: Pardon?

Therapist: Are you always such a hardworking person?

Mother: Hardworking person for what?

Therapist: Here you are doing the two parts of the conversation.

Mother: You mean controlling the whole thing?

[Laughter in voice] Therapist: No,

not controlling. Working hard.

Mother: I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

I tend to do that. Therapist: And when you had-

- in your previous marriage, Jeff was a very young kid then,

two years old? And that lasted two years?

Mother: My second marriage did,

yes. Therapist: And were you very close with Jeff during that period?

Was it very difficult, your marriage?

Mother: Yeah. The marriage itself was difficult and I think I was united with the kids,

because it was kinda the three of us against him.

Period. Therapist: You felt also?

Mother: Yeah. Bobby: Yeah.

It was- - I guess it was during mom's second marriage that I found out that as soon as I turned 12,

legally I could decide which of my two parents I wanted to live with.

And I was kinda waiting for my birthday so I could go move in with my dad.

But um, their marriage- - my mom's second marriage,

split before then. Before I turned 12.

And then I ended up moving out anyways.

I moved in with my dad. Therapist: And then,

you, you moved out with your dad?

Bobby: Right. For about a year.

And Jeff, Jeff and I both moved out,

in with our dad. Therapist: Jeff also went?

Bobby: Yeah. They were, it was like if I moved,

they wanted Jeff to go with my.

They didn't like want to split us up.

Therapist: This was after you were married?

Father: No. Bobby: No, this was-

- Mother: This was- - Bobby: -

- this was right after the second marriage.

Mother: Right. There- - Bobby: -

- between the second and the third marriages.

During that- - Mother: They-

- Bobby: - - that year and a half or whatever.

Mother: You spent the school year at Dad's.

Bobby: Yeah, I spent one school year with my father.

I moved in at the end of- - Therapist: You also,

Jeff? Bobby: Right. Moved in just before school started and then

moved out during the summer after that school year.

Moved back in with Mom. And then that was with-

- the two of them had moved in to a house,

and we moved in also. Therapist: So you had a short period without the children?

Mother: Right. We, we switched,

and the kids- - I got 'em on weekends and they stayed with their dad.

Therapist: And where were you?

Andrea: In Reading. Therapist: But were you-

- Father: We were not together at that time.

Therapist: You were not together?

Father: When we moved in together,

within a couple days, we had these two boys and these two boys.

Mother: Permanent. Father: Permanently.

Within just a couple days of Donna and I moving in together.

Therapist: So you have some of this,

uh, terrible things that happened with modern marriages.

How long did you know each other before you needed to be in with these four people?

Father: We met in January, uh,

moved in together in May, and the boys were with us-

- was it May? Mother: End of May,

first of June. Father: End of May,

I think it was. Uh, and during that period of time we had just essentially dated.

That relationship had been very much an on-again,

off-again kind of thing. We'd kind of be close,

and go back, and get close, and go back.

And I'm not sure I understand even yet why it was we decided to move in together.

I think it was a whim. The house that I had liked an awful lot came

on the market and it just kinda seemed the thing to do at that time.

Therapist: She came as part of a real estate deal?

Father: Well, not quite, but it was-

- almost, it may've been. Mother: Well,

your kids- - there were a lot of really weird-

- Father: The boys were coming down that summer.

Therapist: You, Andrea, you stayed with your Mom?

Andrea: Mm hmm. Father: She didn't come into it until later.

Therapist: Okay. And you, you came and lived with these two for two years?

Mother: Mm hmm. Father: See,

David was with us for about seven months-

- Therapist: And was it, how was it?

Chris: No, it wasn't terrible.

Um. There were growing pains,

just moving in with each other.

Trying to- - how to deal with each other because I had just,

pretty much, met Donna. So- -

Mother: Once. Chris: Yeah,

so meeting Donna, and living with Bobby and Jeff was all new,

just trying to- - Bobby: We were all-

- Mother: The kids had never even met each other.

Bobby: We all just kinda moved in.

Together. And we hadn't even met before that.

[Laughter] Therapist: How was that?

Chris: Interesting. [Laughter]

Mother: About six months of-

- Bobby: Right after they moved in together,

Jeff and I were still living with our father,

and we had come to spend the weekend with them at the new house.

Right after they had moved in together.

And I had kind of established my boundaries;

I got my room picked out and that's what's gonna be my room.

Therapist: Large house, or-

- ? Bobby: Well, a three-bedroom house,

but Jeff was gonna have one of the rooms and I was gonna have another one of the rooms.

And we knew that we were gonna be sharing with somebody,

but that didn't kind of- - I didn't think about that at the time.

[Laughter] I went and got my bedroom and I fixed it up the way I wanted it.

Mother: They were only supposed to be there for a month.

Bobby: Well, yeah, but- - and then I left for a week,

okay, and then that next weekend,

we all moved in, or, Jeff and I moved in.

And during that week that I was gone-

- Mother: They moved in. [Laughter]

Bobby: They moved in. Okay?

And suddenly I'm sharing this room with,

with Dave over here, who I'd never met-

- Therapist: [inaudible] Bobby: Correct,

he's Dave. Therapist: And why was that?

Bobby: Because we were so close in age.

That's why we were sharing the room.

Therapist: That was the decision?

Bobby: Because we were so close in age,

they figured we'd get along really well.

David: Oh, God. Therapist: It was a terrible thing?

Bobby: Well, I walked in to what was my room-

- David: And I was on his bed-

- Bobby: And he was on my bed.

David: But I thought it was my room.

Bobby: Okay, so I've got a conflict right there.

Therapist: And how did you resolve it?

[Laughter] Father: Still working at it.

[Laughter] Therapist: Who hit whom?

And- - David: Nobody hit anybody,

that day. Bobby: No, not that day.

David: In fact, we've never hit each other.

Just yelled a lot. Bobby: Yeah,

we've never- - Therapist: Why not?

Who enters before you destroy each other?

Or how do you resolve it? Bobby: Uh,

maybe something else comes up that takes our attention away-

- David [trying to speak at the same time]: I don't

think we've ever really been into a real argument.

Bobby: Well, we've been mad at each other,

but we haven't been mad to the point where we actually wanted to go to blows at it.

Actually wanted to hit the other person.

It's more like, well I don't want to see you right now so I'll leave and come back later.

Therapist: When you, when you have a conflict,

do they enter, or? Bobby: Sometimes,

but sometimes- - David: I don't,

I don't remember one time when they've ever entered when we've been arguing.

Except for one time, I do remember one.

Mother: I take it your memory's fading.

[Laughter] David: God, I guess.

[Laughter] Mother: This sounds pretty good.

David: No, between Bobby and I,

I only remember one time. One time,

really, and that's when I had gone some place for something or other,

and I came back, and he had all the boxes,

because our room was cluttered with boxes,

on one side of the room, and I didn't like it,

so we got into a big conflict.

Bobby: Our room is kinda like the storage area

for all the boxes that hadn't been unpacked yet.

That there was no place to put 'em.

And I got tired of them so I built shelves out of 'em at one end of the room,

between our beds. His bed was on that side of the room and mine was on that side,

and between the two of them, against this wall,

I built the shelf out of the boxes.

And I guess he had already had 'em one way how

he wanted 'em and then I went and moved 'em to the other end of the room.

Therapist: What happened? David: So,

we got into- - we yelled a little bit,

I guess, and Papa walks into the room and blows his top at me,

and Bobby had left, and he was blowing his top at me,

and finally he got, finally we got it resolved.

With him winning. Therapist: Why at you,

why not at Bobby? He had- - Bobby: I left.

David: Because I was getting upset.

I was the one that was upset about the whole thing.

Therapist: Oh. But you were right.

David: Ehh, I don't know about that.

It's just, something that I didn't agree with.

Therapist: Why did he- - did you think it was unfair that he should chastise you when he went scot-free?

I don't- - Bobby: I didn't go scot-free on it.

We had to agree on something-

- I think we actually got the boxes out of the room.

Put 'em somewhere else. Unpacked them or-

- David: Uh, no, when we moved out,

they were still in the same place.

We just, we left them in his spot.

I lost the battle. [Jeff and Bobby trying to interject]

Father: I think, and this is just a vague recollection;

my sense was we tried to work out some kind of

an agreement that was acceptable to both of you.

Now, that may be a pipe dream,

but that was my sense of what took place.

I don't think I said that we will do it this way.

Maybe I did. I don't know. Probably at that time I would have said-

- [mother laughing loudly] David: At the same time,

you picked up my bike and said,

"Is this too clutter for you" and you threw it

at the window which hit the wall and landed on the bed.

Father: Ah, would I do something-

- probably- - David: Yes you did,

you did. You were real upset.

Mother: I don't remember that.

Bobby: Dave and I have this thing about we'll

go up against each other and then five minutes later it's over and it's forgotten.

We don't really carry on things.

For a long time. Therapist: Okay.

The second room, you shared with Jeff?

Chris: Mm hmm. David: Ohhhh Lord.

Therapist: And how was that?

Chris: Um, it was real trying at times.

Because, um, because I was so much older,

I had, I wanted my own privacy.

And I was sharing with someone not only who,

not only that I was sharing with someone,

but someone who was so much younger.

It was not like we could talk and share a lot.

Um, and I think there were probably problems about

who was putting whose clothes where and that sort of thing.

Mother: Mess. Chris: Yeah,

and Jeff and I had problems. Especially at the beginning.

I think because he's used to testing people,

um, for how much he can get away with-

- Therapist: Jeff I need your attention here because he will tell if he-

- so just tell me. Chris: And I battled him trying not to give in to him.

If he wanted to do something,

if we were having an argument or something and

he was insistent like he is with his mother at times,

I- - um, would try not to give in.

Not because it was giving in,

but because I felt it was, I felt I was right.

Therapist: How do you remember it?

Jeff: Well, I remember that me and Chris got along pretty well.

You'd take me out a lot of times because he'd

always ride the bus and I'd always want to ride with him,

so he'd always, "well, hurry up,

get up, do this, do that. "

And he always had this great big bed,

and I always had this little bed stashed away in the corner.

So um, you know, I thought it was pretty,

you know, that was fine, because I'm a small little kid,

could sleep in this corner. So I figured it was gonna be fine.

After about, probably about a year of sleeping with him in the same room with the radio going all night,

it started to bother me. Therapist: Was this radio really loud?

Jeff: Huh? Therapist: Was his radio really loud?

Jeff: Did I love him? Therapist: No,

was his radio very loud? Jeff: Oh.

Um- - Therapist: What bothered you about the radio?

Jeff: The radio? Okay. Um. We slept,

he slept right in the middle of the room and I slept over in this corner.

And the radio would be over on the other side of the room.

So he'd have to turn it up so he could hear it at night.

And then I couldn't sleep from it.

You know. So. So we both had our mishaps because I couldn't

sleep from his radio and he couldn't sleep from my nightlight.

[Laughter] Jeff: So. We were just fine.

Therapist: So how was this solved?

Chris: Dave moved up to Reading and Bobby moved out.

Jeff: Yeah. And so we splitted up rooms and then we moved to another house.

Therapist: Couldn't you have said to Chris,

is your name, yeah? That he should put his radio lower or something?

If he would say that, what would be said?

Jeff: I don't know. I didn't even ever,

I don't think I ever asked him that.

[Laughter] Therapist: Did you say something to your father that you felt that he was unfair?

Jeff: No. Because he'd get mad at me because of my nightlight.

So I mean- - Therapist: So how,

how [inaudible] solve that- -

Jeff: Well, because I mean,

I talked to Chris once. I can remember very vaguely that I talked to him,

I asked if he could turn off his radio at night.

He said, "If I turn off my radio,

you're gonna turn of your nightlight.

" Never talked about it again.

[Laughter] Therapist: Help me understand that because what

these kids are saying is something that is troubling.

They are saying that they, in effect,

resolved their issues without ever involve you?

Because that is quite extraordinary.

Mother: I think we got involved a whole lot more than they remember,

because I know that Jeffrey griped about Chris's radio to me constantly.

I mean I think that we were brought in a whole lot more than-

- Therapist: Because you see what you are trying is complicated.

And what I hear, at least as you four are describing it,

seems to me very very good. Bobby: I think what-

- Father: - - okay, Bobby, go ahead.

Bobby: I think what happened was like the issue

with Dave and I and the boxes being stored in our room,

okay, was- - Dad said that that,

they were gonna be done a certain way.

Okay. And then Dave and I had to resolve that between ourselves.

Therapist: Yeah, but- - Bobby: Well,

but Dad started it going like,

let me see how I can put this-

- Therapist: I still feel- -

Bobby: But we didn't resolve it between ourselves until Dad resolved it first.

Therapist: Somehow or other you're describing

this couple as a very wise couple and I just don't know many wise couples,

so I just- - Father: I don't think it's that.

I think that your perception is literally very correct.

I think that Bobby and Jeff only began to trust

me as somebody who is going to be some kind of

a permanent fixture in their life in maybe this last year.

In Jeff's case, maybe as recently as the last 60 to 90 days since

Donna began her therapy and we began to really see that there were some things.

David moved out at the end of about seven months of us being together,

and so was removed from any need to communicate with me,

and Chris and I have had, after about the first four or five months,

a pretty solid relationship.

Bobby: Well I'm gonna- - Father: The point that I,

the only point that I was gonna try and make is that in terms of the resolution of problems,

I think that is very true. By and large,

people only involve me when it is completely

out of control and they don't involve me directly.

They involve me from the standpoint of here

is a conflict going on which is disturbing everybody.

Hence the policeman comes in.

Therapist: Do they involve you?

Mother: Quite a bit. Either that or I've got my feet in it anyway.

Therapist: And are you, how do you resolve it?

Because, you know, when Bob talks,

he talks like a person to whom people come as an arbiter.

And he says his blah blah blah-

- [Laughter] Therapist: And everything resolves itself.

Is that the same thing as you?

Mother: I think Bob is drawn into it a lot,

and he usually finishes it. Good,

bad, or otherwise, that's the end of it.

And I get to the point with the kids,

um- - I would say with these three boys the most,

because I- - I didn't go through a lot of that with Chris,

that I would handle it, I would try to handle it,

and then I was never consistent and I was never strong enough,

and I was able to be, you know,

what Jeff said is just, oh yes do it,

get out of my hair get out of my life,

leave me alone I can't handle the pressure,

is kind of where I usually have been with the kids.

And then Bob would come home and nothing would

be resolved and he would just cut it off right at the toes.

Therapist: It seems a system that is functional,

you know- - Mother: I don't like it!

Therapist: You are a little bit inconsistent

and so he comes and he clears it up and things seems functional.

You seem to me a very normal family.

Mother: I don't think it functions that way well at all.

Chris: I think the problem is that if Dad comes

home and he makes the decision and cuts it off,

he makes the decision, and whoever's involved in the conflict,

a lot of times, they're not satisfied.

There's a problem. A lot of times,

I think, it's whoever's having the conflict,

they do try to work it out. And then it gets to a point where they're not

working it out and then everyone else is brought in,

involved into it. Dad will come,

he puts his foot down, makes a final decision and says,

"This is the way it is because you're not working it out yourselves.

" David: And then everybody's upset with him.

Chris: It seems to me his approach is-

- Jeff: It's always Dad's way.

Chris: No, I don't think so.

I see it as, "If you cannot resolve it,

I will. " That's how I've always,

you know, it's like David and Bobby fight-

- Therapist: Is that wrong?

Chris: No! I don't think there is anything wrong.

If you're giving it enough of a chance.

Therapist: You are a very complicated family.

Like many, uh, second marriages are,

with kids coming from different groups.

And you develop a style in which you two have

decided that you will be stickler and that you will be a little bit softer,

and that seems to work because people get a little bit mad with you and you minster for them.

So seems that you are working things rather well.

Mother: I don't think it goes really well.

Therapist: So explain that to me,

because, you know, I- - unless you demonstrate that I have a function,

I don't have a function. Mother: [Laughs] okay,

I have got to the point where I feel like I'm gonna lose it.

That's the point we were when-

- Therapist: Who will you lose?

Mother: My sanity or whatever.

Therapist: Your sanity? Not Bob?

Mother: No, there was that fear for a long time,

but that fear isn't there anymore.

But that was a real issue for a long time.

That has been my pattern. To just,

you know, the weight gain. I weighed 116 when we got married and that was five years ago today.

And I weigh a whole lot more than that;

now I have 80 pounds to lose.

It's kinda like- - when there was not a crisis between Bob and I,

the only thing that I knew how to deal with was

crisis so I would create one so that he could

leave me and then I could say "See what a bad person I am,

" because my self-esteem was so low,

that I had to try to make the chaos.

But with the family- - Therapist: But I just,

please help me. I don't know what is the problem.

I see Jeff as a kid that likes to get their way.

Well, most kids are like that.

So I- - Mother: To that extent?

[Laughing] Therapist: So I don't understand,

what- - Father: When this relationship was formed with all of us together,

we each took roles that were best for us at that time.

At least that's my belief. The only way I knew how to function with anybody was to lay the law down.

There was no real room for dialogue.

I was unwrapped so much myself in terms of being together,

that all I needed to do was to lay that down.

Therapist: So Bob, you might allay the fears,

comfortable with letting you do that.

And you- - Father: And see the problem is,

I don't- - Mother: That's- -

Therapist: Are you not pleased with that?

Mother: No! Not anymore. Therapist: No,

you are not? Mother: Not anymore.

I think that's the way it was,

that's the way it had to be when this family got together.

When Bob and I got together. The kids didn't have any choice in it.

They just sorta came along for the ride.

Therapist: No, they don't.

Mother: But, we, it's no longer a place that we can function anymore.

Therapist: Means, you don't like?

Mother: I don't like it. Bob doesn't like it.

I don't think the kids like it.

Therapist: What do you want to change?

Mother: I want peace in our family.

I want to be able to be more consistent.

I want to be able to be a stronger disciplinarian.

Therapist: And Bob [inaudible] you?

Mother: I think Bob would like me to be.

I think as I have been learning to be,

he reacts to that a little bit,

even though I think that that is something that he really wants it to be.

Therapist: The question is that,

if he, he meets you as um, as a buffer against his style,

and you apparently softer style,

it's useful. Are, are you- - do I understand that you don't like that style now anymore?

Mother: Right. We don't like that style anymore and we're trying to change that.

Therapist: How would you like to change Bob?

Mother: To change Bob? [Laughter]

David: You gotta be kidding!

Mother: How mu- - no. Therapist: No,

how would you like to change him.

Mother: I would like to be able to communicate with him more,

which I think partly is- - I've gotta be able to change to do that also.

Therapist: No, let me, yes,

I want you specifically to look at him as if you are a sculptor and he is marble,

steel, clay, whatever you want to.

What would you like, how would you like to change him so that life is a little bit better,

I don't know. I think that Jeff will grow up and grow out of that and clearly the kids are doing fine,

so what do you want to change?

Mother: I don't know! [Laughs.] I really don't know.

Therapist: Are you going to ask him,

or- - ? Mother: No, I don't want to ask him,

I want to tell him, but- - I don't think that I've ever really defined what-

- I want it to change, but I don't think I've ever been able to figure out exactly what I wanted out of him.

Therapist: Yeah, but you see the question is that unless you start now,

then, uh, Bob will tell you in what way you should want him to change.

Mother: True, [chuckles] that's true.

Therapist: Or you will ask Valerie.

And so why don't you look at this man who is in Adidas suit and tell what do you want,

how would you like to change him?

Mother: I would like you to let your wall down.

Therapist: Can you talk a little bit louder?

Talk with him, but a little bit louder.

Mother: Okay. I would like you to let your wall down.

I feel that there's a wall there.

I would like- - [chuckles] I don't know what I like.

Um. I would like you to open up to me more and let me know more of who you are.

And share with you. I would like you to communicate with me more.

And share with me instead of telling me all the time.

Not all the time, but some of the time.

Um. This is really hard. I don't know.

Physically, you're fine. I mean I don't think I should change your face or anything like that.

Or your body. The things that I feel are emotional.

And when we, when we try to share,

when we try to talk, I would like your guard to be down a little bit more.

I would like to get to know you more than I do.

I think that's changing now.

I don't- - this is real hard.

I don't know- - I'm not that dissatisfied with you.

With you as a person. I don't-

- Therapist: Think about specifics.

Think about very little things that you would like him to change.

Not big things, you know, you are all people that think such big things and it's so difficult to change big things.

What- - tell, think about what would you like to change in Bob that is relatively small.

Mother: Uhh. I don't know. Like a habit or something?

Therapist: Mm hmm. Talk to him.

Mother: I don't know. I don't-

- I know there are some things that you do sometimes that really irritate me,

but right now my mind is a total blank and I don't know-

- Father: Why don't we go the other way,

why don't I suggest something for you;

maybe that'll open the door.

[Laughter from children] David: Now you're in trouble.

Father: What do you think?

Mother [uncertainly]: Okay.

Father: You alright with it?

In terms of a little thing. It would be important to me-

- Therapist: Louder. Father: It would be important to me that you

begin to get up earlier in the morning so that

I'm able to share that morning and we're able to function more as if we,

the parents, are up when the young people are up.

That would be a little thing.

Mother: We never share in the morning.

Father: I understand that. One of the reasons that we can't [mother laughs]

is that you aren't up in the morning for us to be able to do that.

Mother: Are you, are you talking about being up and making lunches for the kids,

or- - Father: No. Mother: -

- or are you talking about when you go for a run you want me to go with you?

Father: No no no, I'm just talking about us being up and functioning.

The sense I have is that our morning breaks,

okay, the kids get up and they go,

and I get up and I go and then you get up and it's four individuals sharing the same house.

Let's try and find a way for at least to be together sometime in the morning,

to get up and begin functioning in the morning.

Ties in with me wanting a lifestyle partner as

opposed to the other kind of relationship that we had when we first got together.

I'm looking for a partner not a master-slave relationship.

That means, you need to be responsible for yourself.

Be able to stand on your own feet,

be able to make decisions for yourself rather than waiting for life to make decisions for you.

Therapist: So he, he's now your preceptor.

Is that what you like? That he should precept you?

Mother: I don't like that.

Therapist: Why don't you change that?

Mother: I don't know how. Therapist: It's really simple;

tell him to stop it. Mother: [Laughs] stop it.

Yeah, okay, I see, yeah, that's-

- Therapist: Well why don't you change that part of him?

Mother: I think it has a lot to do with-

- him being so strong and I'm not.

I- - Therapist: No no no no.

[Mother interjects: It's real threatening for me.] No no,

that's not so. That's not so.

There is a lot of strength in the position that you take.

Uh, it just seems as if he's stronger.

But your position is very strong.

You see. Uh- - Mother: Okay.

Therapist: You can change him if you want to change him,

and he clearly can change you if he wants to change you.

But that I think that you are,

uh, not very uncomfortable in that kind of arrangement that you have.

Because if you want to change him,

you say to him, when he becomes your preceptor,

"Bob, how old do you think I am?

" And then things- - he sometimes hears when you talk.

Then he will feel embarrassed because he doesn't

like too much that kind of authoritarian style that he has.

It functions with the kids but uh,

but you don't tell him. Mother: I don't.

Therapist: Yeah, so, okay, so question is do you want to change him or not.

If you want to change him then I think it's very easy.

You just need to begin to work on him.

Do you want to? Mother: Yeah,

I don't want it to be the way it has been in the past.

Therapist: Well it has been,

no, just now, just in this moment,

he was being the preceptor and you were the dumb student.

Mother: And that's how I feel a lot.

We talked about that this morning.

Therapist: Are you a dumb student,

or? Mother: No! [Laughs] Therapist: Are you a dumb person and he's very bright,

or- - why do you take that? Because-

- Mother: I don't know why I take it.

But I do. Therapist: But you don't like it?

You know, maybe you like it. Maybe that's what you want from him.

Mother: No, I don't like it.

Therapist: Maybe you want a man with an Adidas shoes.

I don't know, you know, maybe that's what you like about Bob,

that he's- - is he very- - what do you call them?

Jockey, or- - ? Andrea: Athletic.

Therapist: Athletic, yeah.

Mother: Yeah, he's very very athletic.

Therapist: And you like- -

Mother: I like that, but I don't like it when he tries to make me be that way.

Therapist: The question is do you want to change him,

because, if- - so the first thing that I'm impressed is that

you really had managed with a very difficult situation,

relatively well. I can understand that Jeff likes to be close to you.

If, uh, you feel at times, you know,

um, dissatisfied with Bob's, uh,

tenderness, then Jeff gives you a wonderful opportunity to be tender.

You know. So you are Mom's teddy bear.

You know. Now, I don't know how long do you want to be your Mom's teddy bear.

You know, teddy bears grow up also.

But some teddy bears don't grow up.

You know, how old are you, Jeff?

Jeff: 13. Therapist: 13. Well,

maybe you know you are a 13 years old teddy bear;

maybe you will be a 15 years old teddy bear.

Maybe you will be a 20 years old teddy bear.

You know. Maybe you will be Mom play with a teddy bear if you don't change him.

Mother: I never looked at it like that before.

Therapist: The truth is that Jeff looks more like a teddy bear than Bob.

Maybe you can fatten Bob and maybe Jeff could lose some weight and maybe then you can,

uh, play with him. Mother: Mm hmm.

Therapist: Maybe you can soften him up.

Mother: Let him relax a little.

Therapist: Overfill him. And tell him whenever he becomes a preceptor,

"Drop that nonsense. " Mother: I find that real threatening when I have

to confront him with my feelings on something.

Therapist: Talk with him. And,

uh, tell him how you would like him to change and what would you do to change him.

Mother: Get down and beg. [Laughs] I don't know.

Um. Oh, God this is hard. I find it very very threatening when I have to tell you-

- how I feel about something that you're doing.

Or I don't think I have ever told you when there

have been times that you weren't filling my needs,

something that I really needed from you or support that I really needed from you.

I've never ever been able to tell you that.

I've never been able- - to um-

- share my feelings. It's a real threat for me to,

to let you know. I'm afraid that you're going to just totally

ignore what I'm feeling or psychoanalyze why

I'm feeling it and then tell me how I should feel it.

Some, sometimes I just feel like it makes me feel like I'm not valid.

Therapist: Like what? Mother: Like I'm-

- like my feelings aren't valid.

And it's real threatening for me-

- Therapist: Let me ask- - your dad treats her like he treats you?

Chris: Mm hmm. Therapist: And I think that he's right when he does that to you.

And he's wrong when he does that to her.

Means, I don't know if he's right or not,

but- - Chris: Well, if they're happy that way,

but- - Therapist: So, he has-

- he treats you like one of his incompetent kids.

Mother: [Laughs] Sometimes,

yeah. Yeah. Therapist: Well,

you know, it's- - there are some people that like to be treated like that.

I don't know. I will not ruin your fun.

Mother: No I don't- - [laughs]

I think, I think when we first got together,

that was real valid. That was what I wanted.

I needed, I needed a big strong father.

And my needs are changing and I don't need that anymore.

And I don't want that anymore.

And I'm learning that I'm a valid person too.

Now I just have to share it with you more.

Therapist: And that doesn't mean that you need to take it.

Father: I understand. Therapist: You said that you want her to get up in the morning.

Father: Mm hmm. Therapist: How would you do that,

how would you make that to happen?

Father: All I can do is to question;

she can either do it or not. That's her choice.

Therapist: No, that's- - that's too soft.

Father: That's true. Mother: -

- dump me under the bed. Father: That is all I am prepared to do in that regard.

If I'm going to have her, if I want her to stand up and be her own person,

all I can do is giver her opportunities.

All I can give you is op- - Therapist: No,

you see- - Father: - - all I can give you is opportunities to stand up.

And if you choose not to, then you choose not to.

But that's all that I can do.

If I am- - if my need, and my need is for you to stand up and be an independent person-

- Therapist: No, no no no- -

you cannot do that. What you can tell her is what you want from her.

You cannot tell her what she should do to herself.

I want you to change her. Not to tell her to change herself.

Because that's passing the buck.

Father: I'm telling her what I want her to be.

Therapist: No, tell her what you want her to do.

You cannot tell her what you want her to be.

But you can tell her what you want her to do.

Like you said before, you want her to get up in the morning so that you can have breakfast together,

separate from the kids. Father: No,

not separate from the kids. Therapist: You and her.

The kids. Father: No. Together as a family.

Therapist: Okay. So you want that from her.

Father: That's correct. Therapist: What's so difficult for you?

Why is it difficult for you to get that?

Father: I don't know. Therapist: Find out!

She's here. Father: For five years,

I've been trying to find out.

Therapist: So find out today.

Today's your anniversary. Maybe you'll have luck today.

Father: Maybe. Why is it difficult?

Mother: What? Father: For you to get up in the morning.

Mother: I don't know that it's been all that long that I have been doing that.

It's just my perception that's just been a few months.

Father: My perception is that it's been much longer than that.

Therapist: Do you want that to happen tomorrow?

Father: Mm hmm. Tomorrow morning,

would you get up in the morning?

Mother: Yeah. Father: You're right,

I was lucky. Therapist: I think that probably you could've changed that aspect a week ago.

Seeing that people get into grooves,

into ruts. And then you accept to continue like you are.

So I, and I don't think that you will have any problem

with Jeff moving out of the position of teddy

bear if you find a way for you to change each other.

So that he becomes more satisfying to you.

And she becomes more satisfying to you.

But if they don't do that, Jeff,

your destiny is to grow up to be a large teddy bear.

[Jeff chuckles] Therapist: You know,

it's- - some parents, uh, organize kids' lives so that they don't have any alternative.

What would you do if you have a brother that is a teddy bear?

Bobby: What will I do? Therapist: Yeah.

[inaudible] to make him dance,

or whatever it is? [Laughter]

And how does the team manage not to be more [inaudible]

and Jeff get himself saddled with that role?

Bobby: I don't know. Maybe he likes being the teddy bear.

I don't know. I don't like just coming home and getting right into the middle of things with everybody.

I like to go out and do my own thing.

And lately it's just been I'm at home,

well, I should say it used to be I was at home as little as possible.

Lately I've been spending more time at home.

Therapist: So, as little as possible.

Then that was as little as possible?

That left Mom was with Jeff a lot?

Bobby: Yeah, they're together a lot more-

- Therapist: So they need each other?

Bobby: Yeah. Jeff gets home at least two hours before I do.

You know, I don't get home lately until about 5 or 5:30,

and Jeff's home by 3. Therapist: Andrea,

what- - you come, what, a year ago to this household?

Andrea: No, about three. And I stayed with them a year.

And then I moved out on my own and I just recently moved back in.

Therapist: How long ago? Andrea: About a month ago?

Therapist: Month ago. How are the conditions for you?

Andrea: Tolerable. Um, I'm gone early in the morning 'til the afternoon,

and um, I just kinda go through without really perceiving everything.

Therapist: Why is that? Andrea: I just kinda go on one level.

Because it's easier to hide that way.

Without having to deal with it.

Therapist: Is that what you want to do to be until you find any place to rest?

Do you have contact? Andrea: Yeah.

Therapist: How do you call her?

Andrea: Mom, most times. Therapist: You call her mom.

Do you have contact with your mom?

Andrea: Yeah. Therapist: Is it easy?

Can you talk with her? Andrea: Yeah.

Mm hmm. Therapist: What would you say?

Andrea: Not the way I want to.

I can't talk to her the way I want to.

I have a hard time doing that.

Therapist: Why? What happened?

Andrea: I don't know. I've always had a hard time telling 'em how I feel.

I've always been afraid that I'll be talked down and somehow I will be in the wrong position,

and you'll be in the right position.

Therapist: You don't have that release.

Andrea: No. Therapist: And that means,

can you [inaudible], whenever you need her,

you find her? Andrea: Yeah.

Therapist: So it's good. Andrea: Yeah.

Therapist: It's, uh, there.

There will be a time in which you will grow up to be a little bit different,

or you will grow up to be more or less,

but for a moment, she's available?

Andrea: Mm hmm. Therapist: Is that okay,

then? See I- - I am a person that likes,

uh, that people should stay. Where you want things to go.

Because then people can change.

I am certain that you can get up if he really wants you to get up.

If he doesn't want you to get up,

he will say it in such a way that you will not get up.

But you will stay and then you will play with your teddy bear.

But maybe if he wants you to change,

then you will find ways in which you can change

and then if you want him to stop being your preceptor,

you will just stop him. If you want him to be softer,

you will change him. You know,

I don't have any doubt that you can do that.

If you want to. [Mother chuckles]

What I don't know is if that is what you want.

Then you begin to try and then you find out.

Maybe he's more malleable than what you think.

Mother: I really think I do want it to change.

I- - Therapist: No no, you want him to change?

Mother: Our relationship. Therapist: Yeah.

So it's very simple. You just,

you need to work on him. Mother: Yeah.

And state what I want. Therapist: Yeah,

and stop him when you want him to stop.

And play with him instead of with him.

[Mother chuckles] Therapist: See,

and if- - if, uh, he's not available,

then you will make him more available,

and she will not need you so much.

And then you will just find other friends.

Jeff, do you have friends? Jeff: Mm hmm.

Therapist: Do you really have friends?

Jeff: Mm hmm. Therapist: Give me the name of three.

Fast. Jeff: Chris, John, and David.

Therapist: Great. And these are people in your class?

Jeff: Several classes. Therapist: And you go out to visit them?

To their home? Jeff: Uh, one of them,

Chris, I've been to his house.

Therapist: And do they come to visit you?

Jeff: Chris. Therapist: Chris comes to visit you.

Okay, that's great. So you and Chris,

you will go to visit the other people.

What's the names? Chris and- -

Jeff: John and David. Therapist: John and David.

If you will not be available.

Not if you will not be available,

if he will be available. Mother: Mm hmm.

I got it. Therapist: You got it?

Mother: I think I hear what you're saying,

yeah. Good point. Therapist: Okay,

okay- - I will finish but before I finish,

I just want to know, Jeff, if you have any questions?

Jeff: Nuh-uh. Therapist: I hope that you feel uncomfortable with your role.

And don't let your mom need you so much.

Yeah? David, any questions? David: Not that I can think of.

Therapist: Chris? Andrea? Andrea: I mean,

isn't that gonna make Jeff try harder to manipulate

my mom when he feels that she doesn't need him as much?

Therapist: I disagree with Jeff as a manipulator.

I think Jeff is trying what everybody tries-

- to have what he wants. You like that,

I like that. That's all. He tries that also.

Andrea: But won't it be harder?

I mean- - what I get from Jeff is that there's a big dependency on his mom.

And- - and the way you're, I mean,

the way I'm hearing what you're saying is that if Dad changes,

what keeps being brought up is that Mom won't need the teddy bear so much.

And Jeff knows he's the teddy bear.

So- - Therapist: He doesn't like to be the teddy bear.

Andrea: Well I don't know.

Therapist: I don't think so.

I don't think he likes to be teddy bear.

Because, you see, teddy bears are manipulated.

And he likes to be, uh- - his own man.

Andrea: Mm hmm. Therapist: And,

so I don't think he likes it.

Andrea: Okay. Therapist: But I-

- you, you understand what I meant,

yes? Andrea: Mm hmm. Therapist: Bob?

Bobby: I don't have any questions.

I think that you've opened up some new doors.

But I don't have any questions.

Therapist: I think that you should be very grateful to Jeff.

You know? I probably don't think that you appreciate how much he allowed you to move out.

By taking the responsibility on himself to help mother when you moved out.

Because he is [inaudible.] I think that you have been looking at him in a very narrow way.

Jeff is a sensitive young man that responds to your moods.

Mother: That's true. Therapist: And he feels your pain.

You know, so, uh- - so in that sense,

he's a very sensitive teddy bear.

He's not just a teddy bear, but a very sensitive one.

Any questions? Mother: How do you do it?

Therapist: Oh, it's very simple.

You ask him, he uh will tell you,

you will say to him, "that's not a way in which I want to be talked about.

" Mother: Just take the risk and do it?

Therapist: You know, maybe-

- maybe it is not so difficult.

Mother: Probably not as bad as I'm building it up to be.

I'm like Bobby, I think there's been some real doors opened,

for me anyway. To really take a look at.

Bobby: I think you've always been afraid to talk to Dad because when we first got into this,

with all of us being one big family,

Dad was in a different place than he's in now.

You know, he was more- - In a learning stage of how to take care of a family.

Especially a large family, you know.

And he treated us differently than he treats us now.

But yet- - Mother: We still respond in the same way we used to.

Bobby: Yeah. I think that if I ask him,

if I want to talk to him, that the first thing I remember is the way he

used to treat me and the way he used to respond to my wanting to talk to him,

which automatically puts me on the offensive and I go talk to mom instead.

Therapist: I see the creation of a family,

it is a really difficult job.

And so you stumble. Okay. You know,

but then get other ways of- -

and you're learning the process, so, the one grows a little bit,

and- - Mother: Changes. Therapist: Clearly you are ready to move.

Bob, any questions? Father: Yeah.

Do I change- - do I attempt to change myself because of something I perceive I should change,

or do I wait for a specific- -

Therapist: I didn't ask you to change yourself.

I don't think that's possible.

Father: So that answers my question-

- I change only as a result of a specific request.

Okay. Therapist: I think it's very difficult to change without help.

So I say you need to change him.

Mother: Thank you. [Laughter]