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JAMES BALDWIN INTERVIEWÉ PAR KENNETH CLARK (24 mai 1963)

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    - Through a strange set
    of circumstances,
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    we managed to record
    this conversation with James Baldwin
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    immediately after both of us attended
    that now-famous meeting
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    between a group of Mr. Baldwin's friends
    and Attorney General Robert Kennedy.
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    I believe much of the emotion
    of that historic occassion
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    spilled over into our conversation.
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    In an attempt to ease the tension,
    I started by asking him
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    to dig back and tell us something
    about his childhood
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    and his growing up.
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    - My mind is someplace else,
    really,
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    but to think back on it,
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    I was born in Harlem,
    Harlem Hospital, you know,
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    and we grew up--
    the first house I remember
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    was on Park Avenue.
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    Which is not the American
    Park Avenue,
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    or maybe it is
    the American Park Avenue.
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    both: Uptown Park Avenue.
    - Where the railroad tracks are.
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    And we used to play on the roof,
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    and in the...
    I can't call it an alley
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    but near the river, there was
    a kind of dump, garbage dump.
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    That was the first...
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    Those are the first scenes
    I remember.
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    I remember my father...
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    had trouble keeping us alive.
    There were nine of us.
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    And... I was the oldest,
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    so I took care of the kids.
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    And that was Daddy...
    I understand much better now.
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    Part of his problem was,
    he couldn't feed his kids.
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    But I was a kid,
    and I didn't know that.
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    And he was very religious.
    Very rigid.
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    He kept us together, I must say.
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    And when I look back on it,
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    it's nearly 40 years ago
    that I was born,
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    when I think back
    on my growing up
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    and walked that same block today,
    because it's still there,
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    and think of the kids
    on that block now,
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    I'm aware that something terrible
    has happened,
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    which is very hard to describe.
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    I am, in all but, you know,
    technical, legal fact, a southerner.
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    My father was born in the south.
    My mother was born in the south.
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    And if they had waited, you know,
    two more seconds,
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    I might have been born
    in the south.
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    But that means that I was raised
    by a family whose roots
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    were essentially rural, and...
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    both: Southern rural.
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    - And whose relationship
    to the church
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    was very direct, because it was
    the only means they had
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    of expressing their pain
    and their despair.
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    But 20 years later,
    the moral authority,
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    which was present
    in the negro northern community
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    when I was growing up,
    has vanished,
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    and people talk about progress,
    and I look at Harlem,
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    which I really know.
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    I know it like I know my hand.
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    And it is much worse there today
    than it was when I was growing up.
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    - Would you say this is true
    of the schools too?
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    - It's much worse in the schools.
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    - What school did you go to?
    - I went to PS24.
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    I went to PS139.
    - 139.
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    - Frederick Douglass.
    - We are fellow alumni.
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    I went to 139.
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    - And... I didn't like
    one of my teachers,
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    but I had a couple of teachers
    who were very nice to me.
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    One was a negro teacher.
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    And I remember, I was...
    [stammers]
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    You asked me these questions.
    I'm trying to answer you.
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    I remember coming home from school,
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    and you could guess
    how young I must have been,
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    and my mother asked me
    if my teacher was colored or white,
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    and I said she was a little bit colored,
    a little bit white.
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    But she was about your color.
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    And, as a matter of fact,
    I was right.
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    That's part of the dilemma
    of being an American negro,
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    that one is a little bit colored
    and a little bit white,
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    and not only in terms--
    in physical terms
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    but in the head
    and in the heart,
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    and there are days,
    this is one of them,
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    when you wonder...
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    what your role is in this country
    and what your future is in it.
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    How precise
    are you going to reconcile...
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    ...yourself to your situation here
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    and how you're going
    to communicate
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    to the vast, heedless, unthinking...
    cruel white majority
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    that you are here.
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    And to be here means that
    you can't be anywhere else.
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    I'm terrified at the moral apathy,
    the death of the heart,
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    which is happening in my country.
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    These people have deluded themselves
    for so long
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    that they really don't think
    I'm human.
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    I'd base this on their conduct,
    not on what they say.
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    And this means that they have become
    in themselves
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    moral monsters.
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    - Well, Jim, I can say--
    - That's a terrible indictment.
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    - Yes.
    - I mean every word I say.
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    - Well, we are confronted with
    the racial confrontation
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    in America today, and I think
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    the pictures of dogs
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    in the hands of human beings
    attacking other human beings...
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    - In a free country.
    - In a free country.
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    - In the middle
    of the 20th century.
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    - This Birmingham...
    It's clearly not restricted to Birmingham,
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    as you so eloquently pointed out.
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    What do you think
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    can be done to change,
    to use your term,
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    the moral fiber of America?
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    - I think that one has got to
    find some way
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    of putting the present administration
    of this country on the spot.
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    One has got to force, somehow,
    from Washington
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    a moral commitment,
    not to the negro people
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    but to the life of this country.
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    It doesn't matter any longer--
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    and I'm speaking for myself,
    for Jimmy Baldwin,
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    and I think I'm speaking for
    a great many other negros too,
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    it doesn't matter any longer
    what you do to me.
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    You can put me in jail.
    You can kill me.
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    By the time I was 17, you had done
    everything that you could do to me.
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    The problem now is, how are you
    going to save yourselves?
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    It was a great shock to me...
    I want to say this on the air.
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    The attorney general did not know...
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    - You mean the attorney general
    of the United States?
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    - Mr. Robert Kennedy...
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    ...didn't know that I would have trouble
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    convincing my nephew to go to Cuba,
    for example,
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    to liberate the Cubans
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    in defense of a government
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    which now says it has done--
    it is doing everything it can do--
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    which cannot liberate me.
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    Now, there are 20 million people
    in this country.
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    And you can't put them all
    in jail.
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    I know how my nephew feels.
    I knew how I feel.
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    I know how the cats
    in the barbershop feel.
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    A boy last week, he was 16,
    in San Francisco,
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    told me on television--
    thank God we got him to talk.
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    Maybe somebody will start to listen.
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    He said, "I've got no country.
    I've got no flag."
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    He's only 16 years old.
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    And I couldn't say, "You do."
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    I don't have any evidence
    to prove that he does.
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    They were tearing down his house
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    because San Francisco is engaging,
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    as most northern cities
    now are engaged,
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    in something called urban renewal.
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    Which means moving the negros out.
    It means negro removal.
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    That is what it means.
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    And the federal government
    is an accomplice to this fact.
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    Now, this--we're talking about
    human beings.
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    There's not such a thing
    as a monolithic wall
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    or, you know, some abstraction
    called the negro problem.
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    These are negro boys and girls,
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    who, at 16 and 17, don't believe
    the country means anything that it says
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    and don't feel they have
    any place here,
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    on the basis of the performance
    of the entire country.
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    - But, now, Jimmy--
    - Am I exaggerating?
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    - No, I certainly cannot say
    that you're exaggerating.
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    But there is this picture of a group
    of young negro college students
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    in the south,
    coming from colleges
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    where the whole system
    seemed to conspire
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    to keep them from having courage,
    integrity, clarity,
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    and the willingness to take the risks
    which they have been taking
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    for these last three or four years.
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    Could you react to the student
    nonviolent movement
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    which has made such an impact
    on America, which has affected
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    both negros and whites
    and seems to have jolted them
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    out of the lethargy of tokenism
    and moderation?
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    How do you account for this, Jim?
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    - Well, of course, one of the things
    I think that happened, Ken, really,
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    is that in the first place,
    the negro has never been
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    as docile as white Americans
    wanted to believe.
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    That was a myth.
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    We were not singing and dancing
    down the levee.
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    We were trying to keep alive.
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    We were trying to survive
    a very brutal system.
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    The negro has never been happy
    in his place.
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    What those kids,
    first of all, prove...
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    First of all, they prove that.
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    They come from
    a long line of fighters.
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    And what they also prove--
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    again, I want to get
    to your point, really.
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    What they also prove
    is not that the negro has changed
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    but that the country
    has arrived at a place
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    where it can no longer contain
    the revolt.
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    It can no longer, as it could do once--
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    Let's say I...
    was a negro college president
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    and I needed a new chemistry lab,
    so I was a negro leader.
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    I was a negro leader
    because the white man said I was.
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    And I came to get
    a new chemistry lab.
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    "Please, sir."
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    And the tacit price I paid
    for that chemistry lab
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    was the control
    of people I represented.
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    And now I can't do that.
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    When the boy said, this afternoon...
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    We were talking to a negro student
    this afternoon
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    who has been through it all,
    who's half dead by 25.
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    both: Jerome Smith.
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    - That's an awful lot to ask
    a person to bear.
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    The country sat back in admiration
    of all those kids
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    for three or four or five years
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    and has not lifted a finger
    to help them.
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    Now, we all knew--
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    I know you knew,
    and I knew too--
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    that a moment was coming
    when we couldn't guarantee,
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    that no one could guarantee,
    that it won't reach the breaking point.
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    You know, you can only survive
    so many beatings, so much humiliation,
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    so much despair, so many broken promises,
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    before something gives.
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    Human beings
    are not, by nature, nonviolent.
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    Those children had to go--
    had to pay a terrible price
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    in discipline, in moral discipline,
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    and interior effort and courage
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    which the country cannot imagine,
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    because it still thinks Gary Cooper,
    for example, was a man.
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    I mean his image. I have nothing
    against, you know, him.
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    - You said something--
    that you cannot expect them
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    to remain possibly nonviolent?
    - No, you can't. You can't.
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    And furthermore, they were always,
    these students that we're talking about,
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    a minority.
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    The students we're talking about,
    when I was in Tallahassee,
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    there were some students protesting,
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    but there were many,
    many, many more students
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    who had given up,
    who were desperate,
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    and who Malcolm X can reach, for example,
    much more easily than I can.
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    - What do you mean?
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    - Well, what Malcolm tells them...
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    What Malcolm tells them, in effect,
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    is that they should be proud of being black,
    and God knows that they should be.
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    That's a very important thing to hear
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    in a country which assures you
    you should be ashamed of it.
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    Of course, in order to do this,
    what he does
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    is destroy a truth
    and invent a history.
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    What he does is say,
    you're better because you're black.
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    But, of course, that isn't true.
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    That's the trouble.
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    - Do you think
    that this is an appealing approach
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    in that the black Muslims,
    in preaching black supremacy,
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    seek to exploit the frustration
    of the negro?
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    - I don't think--
    to put it as simply as I can
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    and without trying, now, to investigate
    whatever the motives of any given
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    Muslim leader may be,
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    it is the only movement in the country
    which we can call grassroots.
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    I hate to say that, but it is true.
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    Because it is only...
    When Malcolm talks,
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    or when... [inaudible]
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    They articulate, for all
    the negro people who hear them,
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    who listen to them,
    they articulate their suffering,
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    the suffering which has been,
    in this country, so long denied.
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    That's Malcolm's great authority
    over any of his audiences.
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    He corroborates their reality.
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    He tells them that they really--
    It is, you know?
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    - Jim, do you think that this is
    a more effective appeal
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    than the appeal of Martin Luther King?
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    - It's much more sinister
    because it is much more effective.
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    It's much more effective
    because it is, after all,
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    comparatively easy
    to invest a population
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    with a false morale by giving them
    a false sense of superiority.
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    And it will always break down
    in a crisis.
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    It's the history of Europe, simply.
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    It's one of the reasons
    we're in this terrible place.
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    It's one of the reasons that
    we have five cops
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    standing on a black woman's neck
    in Birmingham,
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    because, at some point, they believed,
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    they were taught and they believed
    that they were better than other people
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    because they were white.
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    It leads to a moral bankruptcy.
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    It is inevitable.
    It cannot but lead there.
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    But my point here is that
    the country is, for the first time,
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    worried about the Muslim movement.
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    They shouldn't be worried
    about the Muslim movement.
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    That's not the problem.
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    The problem is to eliminate the conditions
    which breed the Muslim movement.
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    - Well, I'd like to come back to...
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    ...get some of your thoughts
    about the relationship
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    between Martin Luther King's appeal,
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    that is effectively nonviolent,
    and his philosophy
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    of disciplined love
    for the oppressor,
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    and what do you think this...
    what is the relationship
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    between this and the reality
    of the negro masses?
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    - Well, to leave Martin out of it
    for a moment,
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    Martin's a very rare,
    very great man.
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    Martin's rare for two reasons,
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    partly because just--
    just because he is,
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    and because he's a real Christian,
    and he really believes in nonviolence.
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    He's arrived at something
    in himself,
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    which permits him or allows him
    to do it.
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    And he still has great moral authority
    in the south.
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    He has none whatever in the north.
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    Poor Martin has gone through
    God knows what kind of hell
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    to awaken the American conscience,
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    but Martin has reached
    the end of his rope.
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    There are some things Martin can't do.
    Martin's only one man.
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    Martin can't solve the nation's
    central problem by himself.
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    There are lots of people,
    lots of black people, I mean, now,
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    who don't go to church no more
    and don't listen to Martin, you know?
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    And who, anyway, are themselves
    produced by a civilization
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    which has always glorified violence
    unless the negro had the gun.
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    So then Martin is undercut
    by the performance of the country.
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    The country is only concerned
    about nonviolence
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    if it seems that I'm going to get violent.
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    It's not worried about nonviolence
    if it's some Alabama sheriff.
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    - Jim,
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    what do you see
    deep in the recesses of your own mind
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    as the future of our nation?
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    And I ask that question in that way
    because I think that
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    the future of the negro
    and the future of the nation are linked.
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    - They're insoluble.
    - Yeah.
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    Now, what do you see?
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    Are you essentially optimistic?
    Or pessimistic?
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    And I really don't want
    to put words in your mouth,
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    because what I really want to find out
    is what you really believe.
  • 17:52 - 17:55
    - Well, I'm both glad and sorry
    you asked me that question.
  • 17:55 - 17:57
    I'll do my best to answer it.
  • 17:58 - 18:01
    I can't be a pessimist,
  • 18:01 - 18:04
    because I'm alive.
  • 18:04 - 18:07
    To be a pessimist means that
    you have agreed that human life
  • 18:07 - 18:09
    is an academic matter.
  • 18:09 - 18:11
    So I'm forced to be an optimist.
  • 18:11 - 18:15
    I'm forced to believe that we can survive
    whatever we must survive.
  • 18:15 - 18:17
    But...
  • 18:21 - 18:23
    The negro in this country...
  • 18:26 - 18:29
    The future of the negro in this country
  • 18:29 - 18:35
    is precisely as bright or as dark
    as the future of the country.
  • 18:35 - 18:41
    It is entirely up to the American people
    and our representatives,
  • 18:41 - 18:44
    it is entirely up to the American people
  • 18:44 - 18:50
    whether or not they are going to face
    and deal with and embrace
  • 18:50 - 18:52
    this stranger,
    who they've maligned so long.
  • 18:52 - 18:57
    What white people have to do
    is try to find out in their own hearts
  • 18:57 - 19:00
    why it was necessary
    to have a "nigger" in the first place,
  • 19:00 - 19:03
    because I'm not a nigger.
    I'm a man.
  • 19:03 - 19:06
    But if you think I'm a nigger,
    it means you need it.
  • 19:06 - 19:09
    And the question you got to ask yourself,
    the white population of this country
  • 19:09 - 19:13
    has got to ask itself, north and south,
    because it's one country,
  • 19:13 - 19:16
    and for a negro, there is no difference
    between the north and the south.
  • 19:16 - 19:20
    There's just a difference in the way
    they castrate you,
  • 19:20 - 19:26
    but the fact of the castration
    is the American fact.
  • 19:26 - 19:30
    If I'm not the nigger here
    and you invented him,
  • 19:30 - 19:33
    you, the white people, invented him,
    then you got to find out why.
  • 19:33 - 19:35
    - Well...
  • 19:35 - 19:37
    - And the future of the country
    depends on that,
  • 19:37 - 19:39
    whether I was able
    to ask that question.
  • 19:39 - 19:42
    - As a negro
    and as an American,
  • 19:42 - 19:45
    I can only hope that America
    has the strength and the capacity...
  • 19:45 - 19:47
    - The moral strength.
  • 19:47 - 19:52
    - To ask and answer that question
    in an affirmative and constructive way.
  • 19:52 - 19:54
    - Simply to face that question.
    To face that question.
  • 19:54 - 19:56
    - Thank you very much, Jim.
    - Thank you, Ken.
Title:
JAMES BALDWIN INTERVIEWÉ PAR KENNETH CLARK (24 mai 1963)
Description:

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Video Language:
English
Duration:
19:58

English subtitles

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