Dr. Money And The Boy With No Penis

Horizon tells the story why a baby boy was brought up as a girl

with tragic consequences.

(Piano Music)

Narrator: This is the story of a boy, whose penis was burned off.

(Piano Music)

As a result, David Reimer was raised as a girl for the first fourteen years of his life.

Janet: She looked feminine in the face, so I grew her hair long.

She was very pretty.

I made her the fanciest dresses of any of the girls in the school.

Narrator: It is also the story of the psychologist, who treated him.

A man with a radical theory of what makes us male and female; masculine and feminine.

Professor Green: He's brilliant.

I think John is a brilliant man.

I think he is among the handful of the most brilliant people I've ever met.

Narrator: Together, they helped form one of the most famous theories

in the history of modern psychology.

That a boy--any boy--could be raised as a girl.

But, the experiment went terribly wrong.

David: I was told: I was a girl.

I didn't like dressing like a girl.

I didn't behaving like a girl. I didn't like acting like a girl.

I'm not a professor, but you don't wake up one morning

deciding that you're a boy or a girl, you just know.

Narrator: In the end, the scientist's reputation

would be shattered and David Reimer and

his twin brother would die tragically.

Tonight, Horizon tells a cautionary tale about how science,

in a bid to prove a beautiful theory,

can at times ignore the ugly facts.

A dreadful human cost.

(Music)

Narrator: On May 4, 2004, 38 year-old,

David Reimer drove into a supermarket car park.

Janet: At 10:30 at night, the police came to the door.

And I think I was screaming, "No, no, no..."

Narrator: As he sat in his car, he put a shotgun to his head

and pulled the trigger.

Janet: Then, they asked us to sit down

and they said they had some bad news.

That David was dead.

And,

I just cried.

Narrator: David's death was a shocking close to

one of the most extraordinary sagas in modern science.

Born a boy, he had been turned into a girl, called Brenda.

But, when she was 14, she changed herself back into a man and later married,

and raised a family.

David's suicide was more than just a human tragedy.

It was; also, a devastating blow to the reputation of a psychologist,

who's groundbreaking research on David,

had influenced a whole generation of scientists.

Because, some say, that it was his unflinching belief in his theories

that may have, ultimately have lead to David's death.

(Music)

Horizon has been following the story of David Reimer for years.

It all began on the 22 of August 1965. In Winnepeg, Canada.

For it was then, that Janet Reimer was granted her dearest wish.

Janet: I was so proud.

I was so pleased.

You know, when I was a little girl, I used to dream about having twins and

I always thought I would never be lucky enough to have twins.

I wasn't the lucky kind.

Narrator: Janet gave birth to two twin boys, Bruce and Brian.

All went well, until the boys went for a routine circumcision operation,

when they were seven months old.

On the 27 of April 1966, Bruce was operated on before his brother, Brian.

Janet: When we first heard that there had been an accident,

we thought, "what kind of accident could there be?"

But, we went to the hospital, not suspecting a thing. They wouldn't tell us

anything over the telephone.

And then, the doctor told us there has been a slight accident.

The penis has been burnt off from circumcision.

And I could not comprehend what he was talking about,

because I thought they were going to use a knife.

I didn't know there was electricity involved.

Narrator: The electrical equipment had malfunctioned.

and burned off Baby Bruce's entire penis.

Brian was not operated on.

Janet: It was like a little, burnt piece of string. Right up to the crotch was burned off.

I said, "Oh my God. What are we going to do now? Boys put such great store in their penises."

He doesn't have one.

Narrator: Janet and her husband, Ron didn't know where to turn.

At the time, plastic surgery wasn't advanced enough to help Bruce Reimer.

Man: Only a few weeks ago, John's Hopkins in Baltimore annouced that it was opening a Gender Identity Clinic, for people who wish to change their sex.

Then, several months later, the Reimer family saw something on television that make them feel hopeful

for the first time since the accident.

Dr. John Money, originally from New Zealand, was a pioneer in the astonishing new field of sex change surgery.

Man: Dr. Money, it's still a pretty drastic procedure, isn't it?

Dr. Money: Well, it is a drastic procedure by your standards and mine.

Janet: Dr. Money was on there.

He was very charismatic.

He seemed highly intelligent and very confident of what he was saying.

Dr. Money had brought a transsexual with him. A man who had been changed into a woman.

Janet: The transsexual certainly made an impact.

Because she was a very feminine-seeming woman.

And I thought, here's our answer.

Here is our salvation. Here is our hope.

Narrator: Janet wrote to Dr. Money after the show ended. He replied promptly.

When they met, Dr. Money suggested that the Reimers could change their baby son into a baby girl.

It looked as if Ron and Janet had solved the problem.

But, it wasn't just that Dr. Money was the answer to the Reimer's prayers,

they were the answer to his.

(Music)

Narrator: Dr. Money had developed a radical new theory about nature versus nurture.

And how these twin forces effect whether we think of ourselves as a girl or a boy.

He thought that while genes are important,

as far as gender is concerned, a baby is essential neutral for the first two years of life.

During these critical two years,

the child's upbringing, how it is nurtured,

will determine whether it feels masculine or feminine.

(Music)

Dr. Money had developed this theory in his research with hermaphrodites.

People now known as intersexed, who are physically both male and female.

Dr. Money: I have some very fascinating pairs of cases that have taught me a lot. Of course who have taught other people a lot, indirectly, too.

Narrator: But intersexed children are not necessarily the same as other children.

They receive different amounts of hormones in the womb, so some argued that Dr. Money's hypothesis might not be true for all children.

To prove that nurture is more important than nature, would require an extraordinary experiment.

Dr. Money needed two ordinary boys. One would be raised as a girl. The other would remain a boy.

Dr. Money now had the perfect opportunity.

The Reimer twins.

Professor Richard Green was one of Dr. Money's students.

Professor Green: This was an opportunity to apply what was learned about intersexed children

to a child who was not intersexed at birth,

but who had a traumatic loss of a major variable contributing

to whether you were a male or female--the penis.

On July 3, 1967, when Bruce Reimer was almost two,

he was castrated by a surgeon at John's Hopkins Medical Hospital.

Without his testicles, Bruce could no longer produce male hormones.

The surgeon, also created a rudimentary vulva for him.

Janet: It made sense at the time,

that he became a daughter.

Maybe it is a matter of nurture or nature.

And I thought,

if it was simply a matter of nurture,

I could nurture my child into being feminine.

Narrator: As Dr. Money suggested, the Reimer's changed Bruce's name to Brenda.

And dressed her as a girl.

Dr. Money, also gave Janet and Ron very strict instructions.

He said that if they ever revealed the truth to their daughter,

the sex change would fail.

Janet: John Money's advice to us was,

"don't let her think that she was ever a boy.

Keep that secret."

(Music)

Narrator: Brenda, as Bruce was now called, grew up to be a very pretty little girl.

Janet: I dressed Brenda as a girl,

I tried to interest her in feminine pursuits,

such as playing with dolls, helping me make cookies, wearing makeup.

All those things that girls do.

Narrator: Janet wrote to Dr. Money of Brenda's progress.

And once a year, the Reimers visited the psychologist.

This is dramatic reconstruction of an interview of Dr. Money and the twins, when they were six years old.

Horizon has used the original transcripts of these interviews.

This is what really happened.

And these are the actual words that Dr. Money and the children used.

In this session, Dr. Money's theory seemed to be working.

Doctor: "Tell me, which one of you is the boss?"

Girl: "Brian's the boss, because he is a boy."

Doctor: "Brian, are you the boss?"

Boy: "I don't know."

Doctor: "When boys start to fight, do you fight back or do you run away?"

Boy: "I fight back."

Doctor: "I guess Brenda fights back, too sometimes.

Do you, Brenda?"

Girl: "No, because I'm a girl."

Doctor: "You're a girl?!"

Girl: "I'm not a boy. Girls don't fight back. Do they?"

Boy: "Girls can't hit very hard, but boys can."

Narrator: In 1972, when Brenda Reimer was seven years old,

Dr. Money announced to the world how successful his theory was.

That a boy, if given the correct upbringing, could be turned into a girl.

Doctor Money: "The behavior of a little girl is a remarkable contrast to the little boy behavior of her identical twin brother...."

Narrator: Dr. Money's book, "Man and Boy, Woman and Girl," was reviewed all over the world.

"The girl wanted and received for Christmas: dolls, a doll house, and a doll carriage.

Clearly related to the maternal aspect of the female adult role."

(Music)

Narrator: Dr. Money's idea became known as, "The Theory of Gender Neutrality."

It seemed to proof one of the great issues in science.

As far as gender identity was concerned, nurture was improtant than nature.

Dr. Money: It makes it very exciting, don't you think,

to live in an age of the discovery of human personality this way.

Narrator: But back in Canada,

the Reimer family were unaware that Dr. Money

was triumphantly describing their daughter's sex change as a success.

Life was rather different for the Reimers.

Brenda was behaving in a distinctly masculine manner.

Janet: I had doubts all the time,

because it was just so obvious to everyone--not just to me.

that she was masculine.

David: I had a sewing machine. A toy sewing machine.

I had Barbie dolls, clothing...

but, my brother was very generous.

He would let me borrow his toys and we would play together.

Because he knew how unhappy I was,

so he let me play with his toys.

(Music)

Even at this early stage, it was clear that the case was not working as well as Dr. Money had claimed.

Some argue that Dr. Money only published the positive results, to make it look as though his theory was true.

Others disagree.

Professor Green: At the time that John reported the initial reports on how the twins were faring,

I believe that they were based on interviews and observations that John had made.

And that they, at the time, were accurate.

However, Dr. Money's original transcripts,

show that as early as 1970,

even before he publicized Brenda's case as a success,

he was aware that there could be some problems.

Dr. Money: From this evidence and others,

I would say that there is not much chance

of talking this girl into a change of mind.

This negativism is the most extreme she displayed on this visit.

Last time, she was almost maniacal in the way she hit, kicked,

and otherwise attacked people, altogether, in a playful manner.

(Music)

According to Dr. Money's theory,

that it is possible to raise a boy as a girl,

Brenda needed to believe that she was female.

So, the year after his book was published, Dr. Money tried to make her accept her new gender

by focusing on the diference between a girl's and a boy's genitalia.

He began by asking her a series of intimate questions.

Doctor: "Now I've go a good question for you."

Child: "What?"

Doctor: "How do you tell the difference between a boy and a girl?"

Child: "Well, a girl has long hair and a boy has short hair."

Doctor: "What if I have short hair and you have short hair?"

Child: "Well, I have a dress on and you have pants."

Doctor: "I guess that would be a way, but there is another way."

Child: "What?"

Doctor: "Take their clothes off."

Doctor: "What about a baby when it has no clothes on?

How can you tell whether it is a boy or a girl?"

Child: "I don't know."

Doctor: "Well, I'll help you.

Have a look down here, between the legs. Right?

How is a girl and how is a boy down there? What is the difference?"

Child: Mumbles

Doctor: "A boy has a penis for peeing through,

like a little sausage, huh?

What does a girl have?"

Child: "I don't know."

Doctor: "She has it flat. A boy doesn't have that.

They're both different.

They're both different."

David: The type of questions that we were asked

were sexual in nature.

To the point where it would make me blush.

If I would think of talking that way to my son, I would be very embarassed.

It was very explicit about the sexual parts.

Narrator: There is no doubt that Brenda found Dr. Money's approach distressing.

But, his supporters argued that focusing on genitalia was a scientifially correct procedure at the time.

Professor Green: This is a very important issue with children.

To know whether they are boys or girls,

or are male or female, by the appearance of their genitalia.

This is the insignia, if you will, that distinguishes boys and girls and is very commonly used, clinically.

Certainly, I do as well.

(Music)

To try and make Brenda understand that she was a girl,

Dr. Money showed her a book called Two Births.

It contained explicit photos of women giving birth.

And was clearly shocking for a young child.

David: I thought he was perverted. I thought he was as sick man.

My parents didn't know a lot that was going on.

and if they'd known, it would never have happened.

With Brenda still resisting her female gender,

Dr. Money, then had to adopt a more extreme approach.

He thought that the only way he could get Brenda to accept a feminine identity

would be if her rudimentary vulva looked more like a normal girl's genitalia.

He, therefore, tried to persuade her to have a vagina constructed.

Brenda; however, was clearly uncomfortable with the idea of having surgery.

Doctor: "And that reminds me of something else I wanted to tell you about.

You know, really, the way you were made that way,

you're not exactly the same as other girls.

Well, I have a message for you about that.

Here at the hospital we can fix it up and make it look like it's supposed to look.

Fix it up so, that when you sit down to pee,

it goes straight down the bowl, instead of splashing.

How old would you be when you're ready for that?"

Child: "I don't know."

Doctor: "How old are you now?"

Child: "Seven."

Doctor: Well, maybe, if you feel okay by the time you're 8 years old,

we can let the doctor in the white coat have a look down there.

He's the one who can do the operation to fix it up.

Last year, a man had a look down there.

Maybe next year, it will be okay to let the other doctor have a look down there.

And let him fix it up."

Child: "I wouldn't do that."

Doctor: "You don't have to, if you don't want to."

When would be a good age for the operation?"

Child: "13"

Doctor: "13?" Laughs

We'll see about that. It might be a bit late."

Although the theory around the operation made sense,

Brenda was horrified at the prospect.

David: I was scared to death.

I figured I was perfectly fine.

My heart was fine, there was nothing wrong with my kidneys.

What do I need surgery for?

I thought deep-down inside that if I went through this surgery,

it would change me, somehow, for the worst.

It seems that Dr. Money may have felt that time was running out.

If Brenda did not feel female, his theory: that a boy can be raised as a girl would fail.

It is alleged, that he now resorted to drastic measures.

Doctor: Now--how do you tell the difference between a girl and a boy?

Narrator: This is the one part of the film, not based on existing transcriptions.

And it is not clear precisely when this interview may have taken place.

It is based on accounts given by the twins, who were both present.

Doctor: Now, take your clothes off.

Child: No

Doctor: Take your clothes off.

Child: No

Doctor: I want to make you understand what I'm getting at.

Now take your clothes off.

Child: No!

Doctor: Move! Come on!

Move!

Take your clothes off now!

Good.

Now, what's the difference?

Look down there.

What does Brian have?

A penis, right?

And what do you have?

Child: Flat. It's flat.

Doctor: That's right. That's how you know you're a girl.

Stay there.

I'm going to take a couple of photographs.

Don't move.

David: When my folks weren't around, we did what we were told.

If we didn't, we got yelled at to the point

that we thought we were going to get backhanded.

If we were told to take our clothes off,

well, eventually we took our clothes off and sat on the couch.

Had photos of us taken.

Narrator: If this incident took place,

it may have been reported in files that Dr. Money

gave to the Kinsey Institute and,

which he will not allow to be released.

David: I have two years of my files that are buried and those are

the same files where I was on the couch,

nude, getting photographed into positions.

So, he can sit there and paint himself all rosie all he wants.

I know better.

Narrator: If Dr. Money did indeed behave like this, the family were unaware.

The twins only revealed their experiences when they were adults.

Janet: David told us what Dr. Money had done.

Long after we had stopped seeing him.

And we were horrified.

We thought, "how could this happen

to children?"

Narrator: But, not everyone believes David's testimony.

Professor Green: I asked John about that

and John said it is absolutely false.

People remember things

that have sexual meaning to them from earlier years.

They, very often, are not true.

So called, "false memories," or "false memory syndrome."

Things that happen earlier on in life

that have a sexual meaning to them

sometimes get misremembered, sometimes get elaborated,

expands into things that sometimes did not actually happen.

That's one possibility.

(Music)

Narrator: Whatever the truth of these allegations,

it is fair to say, that Brenda grew up a troubled and lonely child.

Janet: Brenda had almost no friends growing up.

Girls didn't want to play with her because she wanted to play boys things.

And boys, of course didn't want a girl in their games.

(Children taunting)

Children: Cave woman! Cave woman!

(Laughing)

Girl: Need some help, Cave woman?

David: The kids at school were bullying me, because I was different.

that's what kids do.

Kids always bully someone who's different.

It's the law.

(Chuckle)

Narrator: One test in particular, showed how unhappy Brenda was.

Girl: Compared to most families, mine's a loser.

(Music)

Girl: I think most girls aren't very nice.

My feeling about married life is rotten.

(Music)

My mother and I have nothing in common.

(Music)

To me, the future looks bad.

Some day, I will see the sun soon.

(Music)

Narrator: Brenda was still refusing to have surgery.

She had also become increasingly masculine.

By 1978, the year of the proposed surgery,

when she was almost 13,

Dr. Money made one last attempt to persuade Brenda to have a vagina constructed.

The psychologist enlisted the help of a transsexual.

Woman: Is there anything you would like to ask me or anything you would like to say?

Narrator: He thought when Brenda saw someone,

who had voluntarily submitted to a genital operation,

she would be willing to have surgery, too.

Some experts think this was a reasonable course of action.

Professor Fausto-Sterling: I could imagine that Money would have asked a transsexual

to talk with Brenda,

to offer a kind of role model, an example,

of why it would be okay

and to give her a vision of someone, who was happy to have had

such surgery and who felt good about herself, as an adult woman.

Actually, it seems like it could have been a smart thing to have done.

Narrator: We don't know what the transsexual and Brenda spoke about,

but we do have a record of what happened next.

As Dr. Money concluded their interview.

Doctor: When you talk about your identity:

male or female, boy or girl, man or woman,

that's called your gender identity.

And that's a very, very tough thing for you to talk about.

Now, I've had not just a few,

but many people come into this office

with exactly the same feelings as you have.

There's something that you can't talk about,

and yet, it's the most important thing in your life.

Child: Are we finished?

Doctor: Thanks for talking.

I want you to know, I am going to be the one person in the world

you can tell anything to.

(Music)

Woman: It's good to have a run.

I'm going to a garage about eight blocks away.

You're welcome to come along.

Child: I don't want to talk.

Woman: That's okay.

Look, you need a walk,

and I have to go to the garage,

so we'll keep each other company.

You don't have to say one word, unless you'd like.

(Music)

Dr. Money's approach backfired catastrophically.

Brenda told her parents,

that she would kill herself

if she had to see John Money again.

David: It got so bad,

where you ended up, well, that I ended up having a breakdown.

I would shake like a baby and cry.

Huddle in the corner.

I didn't know why I was behaving like that.

Narrator: Dr. Money had stressed that for Brenda's gender realignment to work,

she must never be told about her real identity.

But finally, faced with a suicidal 13-year-old,

Brenda's parents decided to tell her and her brother the truth.

(Music)

Ron Reimer took Brenda for an ice cream

and told her who she really was.

David: Oh, my dad just wanted to take me for an ice cream cone.

Usually, when dad takes you for an ice cream cone

it's usually has to do with bad news of some sort.

Child: Um, Dad, is there anything wrong with Mom?

Dad: No, Mom's fine.

Child: What about Brian?

Is he okay?

Dad: Brian's good.

Child: Then what about my school work, is that okay too?

Dad: We're very proud of your school work, Brenda.

It's great.

Child: Then, what's wrong?

Dad: Well,

you have a right to know something.

David: I don't remember

90% of what happened in the car.

Dad told me that I had a glaze over my eyes,

I was staring at the dashboard

and I had ice cream all over me that was melted.

Dad: We brought you up as a girl.

David: I thought to myself, well I'm not crazy.

I'm not turning insane.

I thought I was turning insane.

Narrator: At the same time, Janet told Brenda's twin, Brian.

Janet: I told Brian to come see me.

I said, "You know how Brenda was always more of a tomboy than other girls?"

He said, "yes."

I said, "Well, you know, Brenda was born a boy.

Your twin brother."

Child: No!

(Crashing Sound)

Janet: I think Brian reacted like he did

because now, all of a sudden, to realize that

she was his brother and he wasn't the only boy,

was a terrible shock to him.

(Music)

Narrator: But for Brenda, this was the first time in her life

she started to feel happy.

She said she wanted to be a boy.

Ron: At that moment,

when she said, "I don't want to be a girl. I want to be a boy."

So I said, "Okay, are you sure?

Because there is no going back after."

He said, "Yes.

Yes. I'm sure. That is what I want to do."

Narrator: He decided to call himself David.

Janet: When Brenda became David....

Harold: I don't think he was that shy.

I think he was more withdrawn from people.

He was more scared.

It was a very good friendship.

He wasn't asking for much.

Just for me to be there and be his friend.

Narrator: David, now decided to undergo painful surgery,

similar to this,

to create a new penis.

(Music)

Life for David was looking up.

He had a gender he was comfortable with,

and money.

He'd received compensation for the botched circumcision.

His thoughts, now turned to the future.

David: I got to thinking,

maybe I was too young to think that:

What would it be like if I was a father?

I could be a good husband.

Narrator: But, because he had been castrated,

David couldn't have children of his own.

Then, his twin, Brian's wife had an idea, but no partner.

David: We hit it off ever since.

Like two peas in a pod.

Jane: I'd say maybe six months into the relationship,

we knew that it was meant to be.

Narrator: On the 22 of September 1990,

David Reimer married Jane Fontaine.

Harrold Norman was his best man.

Harrold: This was something he never thought, he would ever have.

And he was tickled pink about the whole thing.

Narrator: At last, David had a normal life.

Jane: I would have to say, he was a great father.

You know, a wonderful husband,

and he was very romantic.

We always did little love letters thoughout the years

and kept them hidden throughout the house.

We had a lot of good times.

(Music)

Narrator: But, there was one thing that was still not right in David's life.

And that was his relationship, with his twin brother, Brian.

They'd always had difficulties.

But, the real problem began when

Brian learned the truth about his twin.

Janet: Once I told Brian,

what the relationship really was

between him and his ex-sister,

Brian, sort of, abandoned Brenda.

Narrator: For Brian,

this was the beginning of a mental disturbance

that would develop into schizophrenia.

(Music)

Then, something happened that would

have a terrible effect on both twins.

David discovered that Dr. Money had continued to publicize his case,

as a success.

Proof that you could raise a boy as a girl.

David: I was appalled, disgusted,

and angry when I heard about it.

Because, there was nothing further from the truth.

Doctor Money: You're a cute little boy!

Reporter: Three decades after this misguided experiment began,

Narrator: To prevent others from being traumatized in the same way,

David persuaded Brian to go public with him

and speak about their ordeal.

Janet: David said we have to do this

and stop Dr. Money from doing what he's doing.

He's ruined our lives, we can't let him ruin any more.

So, Brian agreed.

Brian: The experiments that he made us do,

going into sexual positions with no clothes on,

taking pictures of us,

how degrading for seven year olds.

Narrator: But once the documentary was broadcast,

Brian's mental health deteriorated.

(Music)

Ron: David used to come here quite often,

bring him flowers and I guess, I don't know exactly

what he'd talk about, but

he came here and talked to him quite a few times.

It must have been at least, four or five times a week.

Crows cawing

Crickets chirping

(Music)

Narrator: Brian's death affected all aspects

of David's life, even the parts that he'd been happy about.

Harrold: Dave had a lot of time on his hands

and he'd go into deep thinking.

Narrator: A catalog of disasters befell him.

Janet: First, his brother died, who he grieved over terribly.

Then he made a very bad investment

and a man absconded with the money.

That was quite a lot of money.

And he couldn't find a job.

He was 38 years old.

Who's gonna hire you at semi-skilled work?

Narrator: Finally, all these problems affected his marriage,

Jane: I needed some separation time.

I knew that we needed separation time.

I remember telling him,

I said, "I love you. I'm not asking for a divorce,

but, separation time--I think we need it."

Janet: He cried on his friend's shoulder

for about three or four hours.

And he says, "I can't make my wife happy.

My wife- just- I just can't make her happy."

(Music)

Narrator: On May 4, 2004, 38 year-old,

David Reimer left his parents' house, for the last time.

(Loud Music)

David took a shot gun with him.

And killed himself.

(Music)

After David died, there was an outcry.

Professor Fauston-Sterling: The case--it was too beautiful for him to let go of it.

And I think that was unethical behavior on his part.

Narrator: Horizon asked Dr. Money to participate in this documentary,

but he declined.

His former student, Richard Green,

argues that Dr. Money did the best he could in an era when we knew less.

Professor Green: With the benefit of hindsight,

based on what we knew at the time about

how you became male or female, boy or girl,

with the advantage of hindsight,

knowing the difficulties, to say the least,

of creating a penis surgically.

The decision that John Money made, at the time,

was the correct one and I would have made the same one at that time.

Narrator: What we do know,

is that Dr,. Money's theory,

that it is possible to raise a boy, as a girl,

does not seem to hold true for most children.

Nature, as far as gender identity is concerned,

cannot be overridden by nurture.

Above all, this is a cautionary tale.

This is what can happen,

when science pursues a beautiful theory,

with scant regard for the human cost.

David: You are always going to see people who are going to say,

"Well, the David Reimer case could have been successful."

I'm living proof,

and you're not going to take my word as gospel,

because I've lived though it.

What else are you going to listen to? Who else is there?

I've lived though it.

Stammer

Is it going to take someone to end up killing themselves?

Shooting themselves in the head before people listen?

(Music)