PAPAJI - "The Beauty of No Mind" Interview by Jeff Greenwald

The first question Papaji is,

Who are you?

I am 'That'

from where you, me

she, he,

all the rest emerge from.

I am

'That'.

What do you see when you look at me?

Seer.

All of these answers are real conversation stoppers.

Papaji, how does an awakened being,

like yourself,

see the world?

As my own Self,

as my own Self.

When you see your hands, feet,

body,

mind,

senses,

intellect,

they are part of you, isn't it? You say 'I', this all includes.

That way you must see the world as one of you.

Same.

As you see, the hand is not different than you.

Foot is not different than you.

Even the nail is not different than you. My nail, you see.

Hair are not different than you, like this.

So are you saying that there is no place where I end and you begin?

There is.

There is, there I am taking you to.

Papa, you speak about Freedom.

What is Freedom?

Freedom?

A trap.

A trap.

Because

bondage, you are in the trap, trap.

A man who is imprisoned in the jail,

he needs to be free, isn't it?

He's trapped in the jail.

He has heard, he knows some people are free outside, no?

So, this you have heard from outside

from the parents, no?

- From the...
- Priests,

from the teachers, preachers.

Come to us we''ll give you freedom. Come to me,

I will give you rest, isn't it?

That is the promise.

And, this is another trap.

This is another trap. From one trap to another trap.

Now you are trapped in the Freedom trap.

You should be out of both these traps

neither of bondage nor of Freedom.

Because this is a concept.

Bondage was a concept.

Now, concept of Freedom.

Get rid of both these concepts.

Then, where are you?

- Here.
- Here.

Here is neither a trap of bondage nor of Freedom. Here is here

nor there,

not even here.

Then? Next.

A few days ago,

a few days ago, you read a letter that I presented to you about words,

the difficulty with words.

Words seem to me to be a very great trap.

And it's been

so true that through the whole time here words have been continually inadequate

to express

the awakening. I can't, even to express why words are inadequate is impossible

because

I'd have to compare them to what was adequate and I can't do that in words.

But, one word that's thrown around a lot in the west

and in the east, is the word, 'Enlightenment'.

Is what you speak of 'Enlightenment'?

'Enlightenment' is

the knowledge

itself,

knowledge itself,

not knoweldge of persons, things, ideas.

Pure knowledge.

Only knowledge.

Not a word.

Only knowledge.

Where does not exist anything,

no imagination

of the past, no imagination of the future,

not even the present.

I can't imagine a state with no imagination.

Ah, that's what is called bondage.

That's what is called bondage, and that's what's called suffering and that's what's called samsara.

And if I tell you,

"Do not imagine, don't have any imaginations right now."

Imagination is images, no?

Image, deceived.

It has come from images, imagination, you are thinking of the images.

And all images belong to the past.

Don't recall the past.

And don't aspire anything of the future.

Imagination goes.

Imagination is out of the mind.

Mind is past.

I still fall into this trap

when you tell me not to imagine anything

it's like telling me not to think of a hippopotamus,

not to think anything.

If I tell you don't think of a, don't think of an elephant,

the first thought that would come into your mind would be

- the elephant.
- Therefore, therefore, it is your question

of imagination. Without imagination I don't...

stay without imagination. I don't tell you

to ask for any imaginations. I say

don't

imagine anything of the past, present, and future. That's what I say.

I don't give you any imagination.

Free of all imaginations.

If you are free from imaginations, you are free of time also.

Any image will remind you of the time.

Any image will remind of the time because when the images go

in the waking state, you see images

persons, things, ideas.

And when you go to sleep

all these vanish.

And now you are sleeping:

where are these images, where are the persons,

where are the things

in sleep state, mind you.

In sleep

the, the things are still there

in sleep even the things are still there, they don't go away

during sleep.

- When you sleep?
- Uh huh.

- They are still there.
- Who?

Everything that was there when you went to sleep

is still there when you go to sleep.

You are,

- Just not aware of...
- you are describing the dream state.

I tell you the sleep state.

I will take you, when do you sleep?

What time did you sleep?

About 11:30 at night.

11:30.

So,

eleven, twenty-nine minutes, twenty-nine seconds,

what happens in the thirtieth second?

Thirtieth second.

- Before 11:30 you said, no?
- Uh huh.

Thirtieth second

belongs to sleep or belongs to waking state?

It's this zone in between this,

- neither here nor there.
- Ok, now,

the thirtieth second is gone now,

finished.

Now already you said here and there and here and there.

Now you are deciding there.

You reject everything:

all images, all persons, all relationships.

All ideas are gone now.

And you jump in somewhere.

After that, thirtieth second, no time also,

no space also, no country also.

Now you speak of sleep.

So, do you,

- do you compare this space...
- No, no, wait, wait, wait.

First you speak of sleep

and how long do you sleep?

Maybe seven hours.

But you have spent not even three seconds.

I tell you after the sleep. You slept now.

Describe something of the sleep.

What you are going to speak is the next waking state

the previous state from where you jumped into this state,

no difference.

So, give me, "What happens when you are sleeping?"

Dreaming.

- Huh?
- Dreaming.

- Just dreaming.
- What?

Dreaming. Dreaming.

- Free?
- Dreaming. Dreaming.

- Just dreaming.
- Dreaming?

Dreaming.

Not dream state, sleep.

Dreaming is the same state, you see. What you see here,

in the dreaming also you see.

Some robber has robbed you

or some tiger has pounced on you

and you have fear, same fear.

So, when you see tiger there in the dream and tiger of the waking state,

same, fear is the same, tiger is the same.

I tell you, when you sleep,

what do you see when you sleep?

- Nothing.
- Heh?

- Nothing.
- Aahh. That's the right answer.

That's the right answer.

Now, why did you like this nothingness

when you see images, men and all that

when you liked so many things

in the world, why did you reject them

and you offered yourself

to go in the lap of nothingness, why?

I was tired, my body is tired.

- And so,
- My mind is tired.

to regain your energy

you went to the resevroir of energy, of nothingness.

And if you don't touch that reservoir

- what will happen to you, where do you go?
- Crazy.

Crazy, yes, yes, crazy, yes, yes.

And if always you are in that state of nothingness

of sleep state while awake,

I will tell you how to keep sleep while awake

and tell you how to awake while asleep.

- That would be fine, isn't it?
- Yes.

Ok, now you come from the sleep

the last

second of the sleep state, waking has not yet come in

waking has not come

and the sleep state is leaving, the very first moment, the very first second,

very first second of the next waking state.

Now, what's your experience?

- My senses call me back to the body.
- Huh?

- What do you say? OK.
- My senses call me back to the world.

What happened to this experience of happiness when you were sleeping?

What have you brought from this six hours?

Nothingness. Where did you do, what did you do about this?

- It's gone. It's gone.
- Hmmm?

- It's gone?
- I'm relaxed.

- Ok.
- Refreshed.

- Atchaa.
- But there's nothing remaining.

Atchaa. So, you prefer tension to relaxation.

There's a question about that later.

But if you understand, perhaps you will not ask me the next question.

So, when you come,

when you come out of a cinema hall, you are seeing a dance in the cinema hall,

a dance, and

from 10 to 5

the show dances, no, in the cinema halls?

In the, maybe, in the theater you have gone to

and then you come home

and your friends ask,

"How was?" What will you speak to them?

- It was a beautiful show.
- Ahh, beautiful.

So, this thing you can bring there

and you brought nothing from your sleep.

And who woke up first?

Who woke up from this

state of happiness?

You were happy, you know, in the sleep state.

If it was not happy state,

no one will leave back their beloved ones

who are next door to them.

They say, "Good night" now

to their dear ones, near ones.

They say, "Good night, let me sleep."

Why? Something superior, something higher, something more beautiful to them:

to be alone.

Therefore, when you wake up,

who woke up first?

And you did not bring that impression of the

happiness that you enjoyed for six or seven hours in the night.

And about the dances, you, you brought this impression.

So, you have to create a new habit, you see.

And that you can create only in the satsang.

As you went to theater,

because you have been going to the theater,

and your parents took you to theater when you were a small boy.

So, this habit is to you to describe that what the senses are engaged.

And you enjoyed.

But free of the senses, that pleasure your parents have not told you,

therefore, you do not know

only it is known, in the satsang only.

Therefore, you are here.

Yes.

So when you wake up, who wakes up first?

- It's the 'I' that wakes up first.
- Ok.

- The 'I' wakes up.
- 'I' wakes up, OK.

The 'I' has waken up.

When the 'I' wakes up, the past wakes up.

When the 'I' wakes up, past, present, future wakes up.

Means, time wakes up.

With the time, space wakes up.

Now time and space:

sun wakes up, moon wakes up, stars wake up, mountains wake up, rivers wake up,

forests wake up, men wake up,

birds, animals, everything wakes

And this 'I' was sleeping during the sleep state,

everything was quiet.

Now you find out,

don't touch the 'I' again,

and you will again sleep while awake.

For one single second,

half of the single second

quarter of the single second will do.

Don't touch the 'I'. I think you can very well afford to do it.

Not touch the 'I'.

And tell me, are you not sleeping?

Again, back to the same story.

That's right.

In that instant, everything is like a dream.

Now, this 'I', when you know this thing,

now, let this 'I', same 'I'

now wakes up, let everything wake up now

in this 'I'.

In this 'I' let everything wake up

and it is going to be one of you, the same part.

All this, men,

men of the past, present and future are included because there's no time.

It's now past.

And this is called

awaking while sleeping and sleeping while awake.

And you are always in happiness, always awake

and this awakening is called

Knowledge, Freedom, whatever, Truth.

Not the names, don't touch the names.

So, get rid of all the words that you have so far heard from any quarter.

And you will see, really, who you are.

Now don't sleep, you have to.

I live next door to a car repair shop, down near your house

and sometimes I feel that my only impediment

to being continually in this state, is that they're always banging on the cars

and hitting them back into shape

and the question here is,

how can,

how can I remain quiet and in this instant

when the senses are continually drinking in the environment?

That's their job. That's what they do. Every second they are drinking in the environment.

So when the child is learning how to walk

the parents supply him some kind of crutches, no? How to learn walk, isn't it?

- They hold his hand. They hold his hand.
- Heh?

Yes hold, and then he learns to walk with the and then when, when he grows up,

he throws away. He can walk independently himself.

So, in the beginning,

when you see

disturbance, when you meditate or when you study or whatever it is.

It is better to change the environment.

First of all you are advised

when you take a house or environment

you must avoid, you must look at the neighborhood first.

Neighborhood, you must look at.

Is it a garbage of pigs?

Noisy people?

Fish market?

Supermarket?

So, you must avoid all these things in the beginning

because you can't meditate.

You can go to forest, meditate.

So, you are advised, and when you learn

when you can learn meditation, how to meditate

if you have learned the art of meditation

you go and sit in the middle of the fish market

and then supermarket

and then here at Shalimar Crossing and Hazrat Ganj Square,

you will not hear the noise.

Because, you are not here, you are meditating,

just as you sleep.

That is called

sleeping while awaking.

And 'till,

'till you cannot learn this,

it's better to avoid the circumstances,

but it is preferable to see

before you get into any apartment, what is my neighborhood.

Neighborhood has to be good, more than your apartment, it's better

not look in your...

apartment is very good, and there are gysers and good, nice beds, no.

You look at the neighborhood first.

And then you can live amicably.

And particularly

you find out the people

who belong to your own way of life.

Then you will not be disturbed, you will be discussing your own,

matters of your own study, as teachers would like to be with teachers,

philosophers with philosophers,

workers with the workers,

and they feel very one with each other, you see.

So once you have learned it, you can do whatever you like.

You just mentioned meditation.

I'd like to follow up on that. What, what is meditation

to you? What do you see as meditation?

There are so many kinds of meditation that are practiced.

And so many of them rely on

looking at phenomena, watching breath,

seeing thoughts arise and fall.

What is meditation?

What you are speaking is not meditation,

that is concentration.

Not meditation.

You are speaking of concentration

not meditation.

Meditation means

not to concentrate on any object.

It's called meditation.

Not to bring in any object of the past in the mind

and do not use your mind.

That's called meditation.

Don't use your mind.

That's called meditation.

And where the mind is used

that's called concentration

will only cling to some object that belongs to past.

And have you been told to meditate

without the aid of the mind?

That's a hard question to answer. Most meditation that I've done...

involves techniques for dealing with thoughts that arise

but the point of the meditation seems to be a thoughtless state.

A state where no thoughts arise.

Ah yes, that's called meditation.

Where the no thoughts arise, that's called meditation.

But thoughts arise, inevitably, thoughts arise.

How do you deal with thoughts that arise?

I will tell you how to deal and then I will,

I will know how the thought arises, ok?

You will tell me.

I think you can devote me

a time equal to finger snap, will you?

One instant, moment, I say.

This much time I will need you to stop your thought, ok?

OK. What is a thought? What is mind?

There's no difference between thought and mind, isn't it?

- Thought arises from mind.
- Yes.

Thought arises from mind and mind is bundle of thoughts.

Without thoughts, there's no mind.

Without thought, there is no mind.

Now I tell you, and what is mind?

'I', 'I' is mind.

Mind is past.

Clinging to past, present, future.

Clinging to time, clinging to objects,

it's called mind.

Where does the mind arise from?

'I' simple, when the 'I' rises, mind rises.

Mind rises, senses rise.

Senses arise, world rises.

Now find out, where does the 'I' arise from?

Where does the 'I' rise from?

And tell me if you are not quiet.

Tell me, go on.

Go on commenting what's happening.

I'm listening to you speak.

After that, you have listened now.

Now I tell you, now I tell you.

Where does this mind,

or, now we have arrived at mind is 'I'

and mind arises from 'I'.

If there is no 'I' as previously we began to begin with

sleep to waking. I arose, the mind arose.

Now you find out,

the reservoir of 'I', where does the 'I' rise from?

- It's the name.
- Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Wait. You have not followed. I will repeat again.

There is a channel, you see, channel, canal.

It comes from reservoir.

And you follow the

beginning of this channel and reach the reservoir.

Reservoir from where it takes its beginning.

Like that I tell, tell you follow

the 'I' thought.

'I' where does it rise from? This word only, 'I'.

And I tell you how to do it, how to find the answer. I tell you.

I will tell you how to find, get the answer.

Because you have not to box like Mohammed Ali, like this thing, yes.

It's very simple.

To know thy Self, is very simple.

As you rub a rose petal, yes.

This is knowledge or realization.

It's so simple, as a rose petal in your fingers, you see.

Not difficult at all.

Difficulty arises when you make any effort.

So, you don't make any effort

to go to the reservoir of 'I'.

Don't make any effort and don't think either.

So, reject effort and reject thought.

Reject thought means 'I' thought,

any kind of

effort.

Then.

- It's like,
- Hmm?

- in, in doing, in...
- No, no, not doing. What doing?

- No effort.
- It feels like a, a comet that's

skirting the atmosphere and flashing briefly and then disappearing back into space.

- Alright, ok.
- That's how it, how it is for me, it's like these

momentary sparks or flames

and then there is the darkness of 'I' again.

Not again, first you have

again means descending, again means going to past, isn't it?

I done that work and again I will do it, means

repetition, calling the

past only, no again, no again here.

Again is past, no?

To regain again is called again.

is re-gain, so I tell you,

you get rid of this 'I', don't make effort

and don't think either

for one single second, half of the second

quarter of the second is quite enough.

And this much time you have not spent in 35 million years,

my dear young Jeff.

Here is the time.

- I find it impossible not to try to do it.
- What?

I find it impossible not to try to do it.

There's always a trying, there's something trying, there's a, there's a sense that

- there's an expectation.
- Yes.

and a sense of trying always that, that does not seem to...

Doing has been told to you by your parents, by the priests

by the teachers, by the preachers, now at least you can keep quiet

for quarter of a second and see what happens.

That doing you have inherited from your parents, "Do this and do that."

You went to priest,

"Do this thing, and don't do that."

And then from the society

And from everywhere else. "Don't this and do this."

Now I tell you, get rid of doing and not doing.

Doing or not doing.

And when you go to doing you have gone back to parents, no?

You have learned doing from parents, from the mother first, no?

Yes, if you did not handle a spoon and fork correctly, she slapped you on the table, isn't it?

You don't do this thing, yes.

So, dos and don'ts first came from the mother.

And then from the priest. You have to go to a particular temple.

Not to somebody else's temple. 'Do, don't'

If you do, you will go to heaven; if you don't, hell.

Sinner!

So, I say, get rid of both,

doing and not doing,

and see at least the taste of it.

How it tastes.

Other taste, 'doing' taste you have seen.

There are six billion people tonight.

And they have tasted 'doing'.

And tell me, what is the result of doing?

Where recently we have seen the result of doing in the Gulf.

We have seen all over, we have seen

three wars also here.

This is the result of doing: hatred

between man and man. Doing, killing.

Now let us see if something could be done

by not doing.

And let this love spring up once again

as was in the time of

Buddha, Ashoka, here recently.

Papaji.

Now I even feel calling you Papaji, it's putting you in this parent role, so,

- it feels a little awkward.
- Ah, this parent tells you, "Don't make effort!"

Papaji they call it, but they must listen to Papaji, one word only.

Otherwise, if you don't listen to this Papaji

and you will have many Papajis for another circle.

- Be my last Papa, Papaji.
- Last.

You awakened spontaneously at the age of eight.

This is a question I've written here and I know, I know you've probably read it, but

it begins, the question begins with

that I'm a writer and I find it very natural to write.

I've been writing since I was eight years old.

And people are always coming to me and asking for advice on writing

and I'm saying, just do it naturally.

Just write as you would speak, there's nothing that's easier.

And they can't do it. They need to make some effort to do it.

You yourself awakened

spontaneously and completely naturally at the age of eight years old.

Why are you so confident that it should be so easy and so natural for me?

I've spent thirty-five million years asleep.

I must have also spent because I know quite many as Buddha also says, you see.

He has spent many, many, many

reincarnations before and he knows it.

Everyone knows it. He knew it, you see.

A slight mistake done in

two hundred fifty-three incarnations ago he remembered very much, you see.

Yes, yes, like this thing.

So, when he came to spontaneity

spontaneous, he has also been doing, he was going to teachers also

and then in this, in this life

he,

he has also gone to several teachers.

He was having a very comfortable life.

He was a prince

having the beauty of the land

in the form of Yashodra

gift of married life

suckling the breasts of the mother.

And this young man wakes up,

"I have to search something else.

"This is most beautiful palace, elephants, dancing beauties,

"wife, son.

"Something else is waiting for me."

He has thrown away his robe,

took away his horse,

and some confident man.

"Leave me out of the boundaries."

And then he saw one corpse, was going away, corpse

was going and he changed his robe and took away

the cloth, the sheet

which was, the body, dead body was covered

and he put on his shoulder

to throw away his ego,

his princely garments

and put all his diamonds on the corpse.

Patted the horse

patted the horse with love

and the horse also, kissed his feet

and collapsed and died, you see.

This compassion could not be seen.

This is in the beginning, he was not yet enlightened, this rise came in his mind.

Just a renunciation and desire for

home, home,

then he went, sat under a tree quietly, you see.

And this Sidhartha, prince, became Buddha.

So spontaneously he could not speak.

Ananda was the first man

"Master,

"what's your experience?" He kept quiet, you see.

So, you are asking me direct question, I do not know, but

I was there, it was very spontaneous,

it was very spontaneous.

I could not

I had no background also

didn't do any meditation

didn't read any book.

I was in Pakistan, therefore,

these books were not available because they were in Sanskrit.

I had not studied Sanskrit, I was study Persian.

It came to me.

How, I do not know.

Perhaps

it has chosen me,

it has chosen me, that's,

the Truth reveals

to a holy person

and I did not have any qualification.

I was not educated at that time, eight years, second standard, you see.

So, I didn't know. Still I am seeing what is it, what is it, what is it?

Each time I am more in love with it every moment.

All my life I wondered

what it would have been like to live in the time of the Buddha.

and to have sat at the feet of the Buddha and I feel I know that answer to that question now.

You have been with him, you have, must have been with him, otherwise,

you would not have asked these questions.

You would never have come to this.

What about the other people?

Six billion people, why they don't they come in satsang?

Why you? What about your neighbors, what about your parents, what about your society?

Why you are chosen? You are chosen for this purpose

and when

you will know this, you will see

it was only this instant.

Only this instant,

nothing had happened before.

Nothing will happen in future.

In this instant you thought

you are bound, and this instant

you found that you are free.

And in this instant you will know...

there is no Freedom, no bondage, I am what I am.

- In this instant I know that. - Hmm.

In this instant I know that.

- You know that.
- I see, I see.

Yes.

I'm happy, you are a young man.

The old people pass away,

pass away and going to clubs.

Yes, I went to one club in Europe. I said these are,

they were playing only rolling one rubber ball from this end to that end, from that end, rubber ball,

then I asked one person, "Is there old man?" "No, no, no.

"They are not old men, they are very old men, because

"up to eighty years they don't come for this sports.

"So, they are above ninety. They can't go to clubs now.

"Up to eighty they can go to clubs and dancing and here and there they can go, they don't come to this."

And that was old people's sports club.

Because the society, young sons, don't accept them.

Because they're coughing,

they're coughing, they have to go to old homes.

Now you can start your own cricket team.

Huuh? Yes, yes, I'm coming right from the match, therefore I was

only five minutes before time, you see.

Otherwise I could have come little early

and speak with you.

I suspected as much.

Papa, can mind assist in the process of realizing Freedom?

Yes, it does.

It does. Mind is your

foe, and mind is your friend also.

When attached to sense objects, it's your enemy.

And when it aspires

to come to satsang,

the same man, same mind, is a friendly mind.

It, it will give you Freedom. Same mind.

That's a big relief for some reason.

Yes, yes, take you,

to take you somewhere there, you see. It is the same mind, you see. Yes.

When we speak of realizing Freedom,

who is realizing Freedom?

This 'who' itself.

This 'who' itself is realizing Freedom.

This 'who' is asking the question.

It is the same 'who'

who feels

that this 'who' is now bound.

After having known this 'who'

will show you its 'whoness'.

I'm...

Look, look here.

Look here, Jeff, I am the same 'who' which brought you here.

That was St. Francis who said,

what you are looking for, is who is looking.

Ahhh, yes, yes, yes.

Smart guy, that St. Francis.

That's 'who' when you say only 'who'.

Say only 'who'. W-H-O. Who.

Where do you find? Tell me. Where?

Where do you find?

You have to add something

then the reply will come, "Who are you?"

Then they will give. Simply say, "Who?"

Then who will appear to you?

Simply say, "Who?"

Simply say, "Who?"

Where does it, where does it come, where does it?

I'm going to be sitting here like an owl in a minute.

Ah, let's see.

You often say that the force that has brought us to satsang,

the force that has brought us here, will take care of us.

What force is that?

The same force which has brought you here,

the same force which is speaking,

the same force which is asking me this question.

Force is the same.

The force has now become the questioner.

The same force is now asking.

And this force is asking, "Keep quiet".

After you, Papaji, I could interview anybody.

What did you say?

What did you say?

A lot of the writing I do is about science, and I, there's a scientific question.

In the scientific view,

I'll read this, because it took so long to word it just perfectly.

In the scientific view,

everything that we perceive from an apple to pure grace

is the result of neural signals and chemical processes.

From the biological perspective

the miracle of consciousness has a direct physical cause.

How can we be certain that consciousness,

consciousness, awareness, awakeness,

is not just a chemical reaction,

and that the realization of emptiness is more than a mere quieting of our brain cells?

I think the science is doing very well in the latest researches.

Science has done very well, and

I don't have any difference with what science is doing. We are living in the 20th century.

And we are very lucky people

to enjoy the benefits of the researches of the science.

And I can't reject science, the scientific discoveries.

Otherwise you cannot come

from California to here in just 20 hours.

- So true.
- Yes, so, we should accept it.

But where does this

intellect of discovery come from? You are speaking from

cells of the brain. Discoveries have been made

up to, to discover the brain, the cells of the brain, as you say.

Where do these cells are getting energy?

Cells are getting energy, yet the science has not discovered

only the frontal lobe of the brain is now discovered by the science with the latest

implements of the science, scientific instuments

but the, but the hind lobe of the brain is yet

which is empty is not

the science, anything, any instrument is not

discovering what does this contain

from where these cells become active

that is yet not discovered. I hope they could do it one day.

And this emptiness itself

gives forth to these cells.

And these cells now send signals

throughout the body. We have billions and trillions of cells in the body.

And these cells activate in the form of thoughts and movements

of everything, of the limbs and the senses

and of the mind, whatever you do, responsible for the cells.

And this is the creation:

from the beginning of emptiness to the cells, and from the cells to intellect,

intellect to the mind and mind to the body and senses and objects, you see.

We have this perception through the cells.

Then, once upon a time,

these cells will get fatigued

by doing this work, because they have been suffering

because we have been using these cells for millions of years,

they want to take rest.

And now they want to take rest.

And they, they will have a conference together

conference together, these cells,

and they will protest against the mind, no?

We will not listen to you.

Enough, we have listened for thirty-five million years.

And now they will stand up and dance,

we want to be free, we want to be free of this whole cell business.

No more cells.

Now this, speak.

Each cell is giving you a next incarnation,

each cell, because what you desire will enter directly into the cell.

And that will be line hidden.

It will appear in the proper circumstances

and reincarnate, this is the cells which have reincarnated.

And has become mind now.

Now when they will protest

and want to be free.

And now, when your question started,

it is... and when the cells become quiet and you say, emptiness, no?

This is what you say, "Freedom is the process of chemical reactions."

Maybe Freedom, maybe emptiness is just a chemical thing happening in the mind.

- Mind, yes, maybe in the mind.
- Or in the brain.

- The brain, not the mind, the brain.
- Yes, yes..

Ok, let it happen, but who is aware of this chemical happening of the cells?

Some higher force, some subtler force than the cell,

that is even conscious of what is happening to the cells.

It is aware. What is that force now?

Actually, Papa, that brings me to my next question.

What, what do you say?

The question, the answer that I want to give you is grace, Atman, the, the

the grace, the Atman, the,

the thing, the larger, the larger context in which

we are all existing in our forms.

But the question that I, I follow, the other, the chemical question where there is, is that

what we call Atman, or grace, Atman, grace

and in reading this question, please

understand, I want you and everyone in this room to understand that

these questions, and the asking of these questions.

I feel grace in your presence, Papa,

and, and I'm, I'm not saying that I don't feel it or I'm denying it, I'm just

trying to understand and remove the doubt

- between Freedom, Ok?
- Achaa, Ok.

That this, this, this grace, it sounds to me like something

like a force that must encompass everything, even more than everything

beyond, what, it lies larger than everything

but it also sounds to me

like something I'm being asked to believe in,

that something I must have faith in.

And the question is, is Faith,

is Faith in the supreme force, a prerequisite for Freedom?

Must we have faith in a, this force to awaken to Freedom?

Does what you are doing, what you are teaching, what you are giving us, require Faith?

The Faith word is coined by the founders of the religions, first of all.

- Yes.
- Isn't it?

The Faith word first was Christ.

Coined by, when you say the word Faith

you must go back, if you belong to any religion

so and so founder has told us, different religions.

So, they tell you to follow someone of the past.

When you speak the word 'Faith' you must see that your mind goes to the past.

Tell me any instance when there is a question of Faith

and it doesn't belong to past.

I can do that, Papa,

I can do that, I can say that grace...

No, no, you were asking of Faith first.

- I'm replying Faith.
- Ok.

I'm not touching Atman and grace yet.

The word Faith is associated for me with religions and with dead religious leaders.

- Yes, and this takes you to the past images only.
- That's right.

"Have faith in this god or that god, in this statue or the other statue."

And I don't tell the children over here

to have faith in anything of the past.

I don't teach Faith, I teach knowledge.

Knowledge has got nothing to do with Faith.

Faith brings you to the past,

and knowledge to the instant presence.

This is the difference between Faith and Knowledge.

Coming to Atman and grace,

there's no difference.

Because when you use the word Atman,

the mind does not hold any person, any thing, any concept in the mind,

nor the grace.

When you utter the word, grace, you can't think it is coming from such and such person,

such and such image, such and such thing,

that comes Faith.

I've already described.

Grace is more than space,

higher, subtler, supreme than even space.

Where the space arises from?

A question is, that is Atman,

through which, through whose grace, the sun shines.

This shine of the sun is that grace.

Moon in the night,

the hardness of the rock,

softness of the flower,

flow of the river,

movement of the air,

and wave of the ocean.

What is this?

That which moves the air,

not the movement, not the movement.

That which moves the air.

Not the wave, that which arises the wave from the ocean.

That.

- That is,
- That.

- it's the ultimate mystery then, isn't it?
- Heh?

- It's the ultimate mystery.
- Yes. Call it mystery.

And that mysteriousness is called grace.

No difference.

You can call it mystery.

Call it mystery.

It is still a mystery

and mystery will remain

always secrecy,

secrecy also, secret, mystery.

So very sacred that you will not be able to tell me because

when I took you to that place, you could not tell me.

Such sacred

such secret, if it was not a secret

surely you will tell me, because you know me,

I will not deceive you.

And you did not tell me what has happened during this instant. You didn't tell me.

Why? It is so secret, two cannot walk abreast.

So much secret, two cannot walk abreast.

Not even one.

Not the body, not the mind, not the senses,

not even the intellect,

not even the discretion,

not even the discretion.

That is that.

And, this is mystery what you speak

and if it is not a secret,

you can speak to me because

I am trying for the last sixty years

please, I cannot solve this mystery,

this secret I cannot know.

I am old man, you are very young.

You can please speak to me.

I want to see face to face.

I want to kiss him, I want to kiss her, because

I have not see this beauty anywhere on the face of this planet.

Because I am in love with someone

that beloved I have not seen, isn't it?

Wow!

How did I get here?

How did I end up sitting here at your feet like this?

What kind of miracle is this that's put me in this spot right now?

You have called them, you have called everybody.

It is your, your invitation.

Papaji, you recommended in yesterday's satsang

that we don't read books about awakening

because it just creates the preconception and expectations

of what awakening will feel like, what it will taste like, what it will be like.

I agree with you.

But what do you hope to convey then in an interview that will be published in the west?

When I don't recommend any book, because when you read a book

of anybody,

of anybody, whether it

belongs to any sage, saint, even of Buddha.

I won't recommend you to read, even any sutras.

Any sacred books

I don't recommend you, because what will happen when you will read a book?

Surely, you will like some, something out of the book.

A good book means, book means a good book, book itself,

sutra itself,

Upanishad itself,

even Diamond Sutra, even Heart Sutra,

Vajracchedika Sutra, whatever it is.

Now what happens? You have read it.

After having reading that, you liked it, no?

And you have stored it in the memory, isn't it?

Good thing must have stored in the memory.

And now what will happen?

Now you sit for meditation, for Freedom

and

you want to be free, you want Freedom

and this

preplanned, preplanned

thing that you have heard, this thing

will be your post,

post experience that will come in front

and you will call, "Here is my experience."

And you will forget that this was already stored in the memory

and whatever you get is the past experience.

And this is not going to be the past, anytime.

This is a deception of the mind, mind is going to teach you,

deceive you, cheat you always, you see. Don't depend on the mind.

What the mind likes, you

you don't listen to him, you dislike, but the mind likes, what will happen?

So, this store of the memory, memory means past,

so, this thing you are planning now in meditation, 'I have to arrive at this thing.'

It is written like this thing, so, this is already your experience

your post experience is pre-planned experience

and you are going to have it,

because whatever the mind thinks, it manifests, you see.

Whatever you think, it manifests.

You must have thought of the samsara and there is manifestation.

This is your thought, this is your wish.

That's why it is here, it looks so real,

because you have faith in this reality.

That this is real, this samsara is real.

And once you will experience reality is

somewhere else, then you will reject it instantly.

You will have a very new, very fresh experience.

Very new, each moment a new experience, you see.

Not with the mind, with no mind.

With no mind, all alone.

That's called experience,

I don't use the word experience again,

because all experience are bland, from the past.

It's not going to be an experience.

It's going to be a very direct,

very direct meeting,

very direct meeting.

For the first time you will meet someone.

When you will go to meet it,

after denuded your mind,

after denuded all the concepts of the mind,

in that dress you have to go.

Undress everything, nude,

even denude yourself of the nudity also, understand?

That much sacred is the chamber

of this beloved. If you want to meet, go.

Who stops you, now itself?

So simple, so simple.

To dress up takes time, to undress what is there?

Yesterday,

you told a story about a guru

who was so sick, who was so deeply engrossed in meditation

that he didn't care for his sick son,

someone else came up and asked you about that, that also stuck in my craw.

It brought up for me the issue of responsibility.

And I want to ask you, is Freedom also freedom from responsibility?

For this man who came here during the satsang, again came to me at my place.

And I told him, this is a story of the saint

and his wife and their son.

That I told you,

and you don't relate to anyone of these three

neither son, nor wife, nor husband.

This is the story of a saint and his wife.

You have to become either a saint

or his wife, then you will know,

or at least his son.

Then he kept quiet.

"I am satisfied." he says.

Regarding responsibilities,

responsibilities are there so long you have ego in the mind

that this belongs to me and that belongs to,

to him.

Then only responsibility arises and

and then, when you understand

who is the father of this creation

before that, before your birth

this samsara, this creation was already there.

For millions of years it was there.

Who looked after this?

You are looking after your responsibilities, liabilities, just for thirty years.

And after seventy years you will not look after again.

So, your responsibilities and liabilities,

the span of your duties is only hundred years, no?

What about billions of years, you see?

Billions of years responsibilities, who's taking, who's sharing?

And, even, even if you take responsibility

towards your family, towards your son, towards your wife, towards your society,

towards your country,

and towards all others.

So, you have to move your mind, or body,

or intellect, isn't it?

- Yes.
- To fulfil these responsibilities, three things you need:

good health, body, good body, good mind, good intentions, compassion.

You need.

Where do you draw these things from?

Energy to move the body, to help others physically,

to move the mind to send good compassion, good thing to others, mentally.

Where do you draw this energy

- to act?
- It's drawn from, from grace.

From grace, Ok. If you know,

if you know that "I am drawing the energy from the grace," therefore,

and then how come that it becomes your responsibility?

Now this bulb is shining, no? This light is there.

And now this lamp says, "It's my light."

"It's my light."

If I like to shine, I will shine and if I don't, it will be darkness, no?

This light is not coming from here, not even in the bhavan

The reservoir is somewhere else, generator is somewhere else.

So, if this lamp says, "I am bright."

"Due to me you can see."

It's mistaken, no?

It doesn't know where does this current come from.

Where the electricity comes from.

And where the electricity is produced from.

Even the electrical engineer I called

I asked him, there was one electrical engineer of this place, chief engineer electricity,

I said, "What is electricity?"

Because

if you break the wire through which this current is passing and gives us light,

I don't see anything.

I don't see anything, if you cut the wire.

He said, "Yet we do not know."

Yet we do not know

and electricity is produced

and it works somehow, it works

and it generates electricity

but actually it comes from somewhere, that still we do not know.

It works, but before that, where we get this

energy, power, power, that still we do not know.

So, we forget, when we forget

and we have tensions and sufferings and everything

and when you lay all these things before the father

and when you are five years old, up to five year old, your father was looking after

only when you grew old

and you felt that now I am quite enough

you don't care for your parents, ok, you work yourself

and parents also will not care, you do whatever you want.

So, like this, parent is happy,

parent is happy, you are working yourself.

Work! And if you can't work, if you are in trouble,

go to him he will say, he will kiss you,

"My dear son, come to me. I will look after you."

So, don't forget

that this energy through which I am working

belongs to Atman, grace,

and you will have 200% more energy to work as you are doing now.

You go back to your country and see.

This is coming from grace.

It is my good luck

that I have seen this grace. I am working

and I have given this opportunity to look after my children,

my wife, my relations, my society, my country, like that.

You will see a new life from here, because

many people who are going from here, they are writing to me.

Where this energy is coming from?

We are busy already, but now we have taken more jobs.

And we still we don't fatigue ourselves.

We are very young now

and we have,

we are becoming as thirty years younger than what we came to Lucknow.

That's what...

You also?

- Then I would be eight years old.
- Atchaa.

- It's a good time for an awakening.
- Yes, yes, you have already done.

Yes, yes, otherwise you are too old.

It's too old, it has to be get in childhood, childhood, youth.

In old age you see,

again responsibilities,

children will trouble you, isn't it?

Children will trouble you, society will trouble you,

diseases will trouble you.

Diseases,

the body is a disease itself, complications

then you will think of diseases only, you can't concentrate.

Mind is concentrated on the particular disease that you are having,

and mental ailments, physical troubles,

and then some trouble from outside,

relationships, so many things.

So, you have to do it in prime youth, you see.

Childhood is the best.

And then youth is better.

Old age.

Some old people have also come, come here and they will be alright next time, but

One woman was here.

- Yesterday there was a woman.
- Yes, there was a woman who said, very happy,

so I said, I have to see that woman, maybe she needs me.

You know after yesterday's satsang, the woman who came and saw you, she was

a bit older than I am and

she seemed to have a wonderful visit with you up here

and I looked at her and I thought, I was very comforted because I thought, I still have time.

Why time, what for? You get rid of time here, now. Why time?

Why depend on time? Time is past.

So, when you go from here, you throw away the time in Lucknow itself,

that's all, you don't need time.

You know, Papaji, this is not a planned question.

No, this happened, actually what I said, "Throw away your time." means

there was one man, he was, he was about fifty years?

This man from LA. Anybody from LA, Los Angeles?

- Yudhishtira, Papa.
- Yes, he was, but anyone here they know it.

He came and

he was not happy with his son, because he was always here.

So, he didn't like and

he wanted to help him in industry he was having, he was quite rich man

and he had brought

hundreds of questions

and he came to fight with me, why I am keeping, why I have kidnapped his son?

So, they have taken three rooms in Clark's Hotel

and next morning he came to see, see me.

And he was sitting quiet, I didn't know who this man and

his son introduced, "He is my father."

And, we came last evening, we could not come in the night.

We had rest.

And he didn't, doesn't tell me he has some questions.

And he sat down in front of me in, in my house, and, and

he said, "You came to me last night. You sat.

"You sat by my bed in the Clarkes Hotel

"And you have replied all my questions." Here were the questions.

"And now I have to, nothing to ask."

And about the time,he was having inter, international time watch on his hand

and he placed on my, this thing, "I don't need time also now."

And he stayed here about twenty days.

As you know, American without watch I have not seen.

I've never seen.

He had no watch, so, he kept here, it was lying there.

Americans, even

while going to sleep, they have watch under the pillow.

Go to bathroom with the watch, even the watch is there.

So careful, so punctual, even in the bathroom, you see.

So, while going, the watch was lying, I said,

I said, "What about the time, now you need time instead of asking people." He said, "No,

"I am same regular, same regular

"getting up, sleeping, without time, I have forgiven time.

- "I don't need it."
- I said, "No, you take my time now."

I bound the watch on his wrist myself.
"You take away this watch."

So, you will know the beauty of no time.

No time, no mind.

Who will look after you?

When you take the responsibility of time, mind,

and all these things, you have to share.

And if you rely on the supreme power,

it will take care of you very well.

- Papa, a few more questions. Do you feel?
- Yes, yes.

You asked me, "No political questions." But you know there is a political question in here

and I am going to ask it and I hope you can answer it.

Nearly all of us in this room I would say, with very small exceptions.

Nearly all of us in this room, with only one or two exceptions,

I'd say we are all very well to do people from free countries.

Visiting you in Lucknow is a privilege that all of us can afford.

For many people though, Freedom still means relief from political oppression,

from imprisonment, from torture.

So, this question is, is external bondage an impediment to internal Freedom?

And if it is, do you see a place for political activism in the world?

After?

Political activism, political activism.

Is bondage, literal bondage, imprisonment, no human rights,

a situation like that, first, is that an impediment to personal Freedom?

No, no impediment. No impediment at all.

Impediment is

ego, created by ego.

"I have to do this and I have not to do this."

There is no impediment at all because you are not the doer.

You are not the doer.

The supreme power is working through you and it will guide you

as the circumstances arise.

This is a, this question is still I feel, it still needs to be answered.

I've spent some time because of my own feelings and sense of responsibility

working for human rights and people in other countries like Burma or Tibet,

who are under terrible oppression, who are being killed or hurt

by people who are taking control of them.

You say that the body itself is a disease and that sometimes in old age

the body exerts a tyranny that makes it very difficult to wake up.

I would think that being in a political country where they would kill you just for coming to satsang

and there are such countries still where if we were to get together in a group like this they would just

shoot you down with a machine gun

that such a thing must be an impediment to Freedom, and there must be a need

for people who will take action against the oppressors.

You yourself did this in your twenties, if your biography is accurate.

How do you view that kind of action?

Now the world is moving to disaster itself, to disaster itself, it shows the movement of this,

this population, where they're moving, to destroy the human race itself.

Yet, the only way is now to try

not the atom bombs,

not the chemical weapons

and

let us try now

compassion and love towards not only human beings,

towards all beings.

Let us try this thing.

And this is for the trial sake, we are spreading the message of peace and love.

We are starting here as a trial. I hope it will spread.

And all those are here, they are ambassadors of all their countries,

so surely they will tell to their parents

and the society also.

It will catch up.

This fire will catch up. You will see one day.

You are going,

you will speak to your people, to your friends

and you will know

what is happening. You will see.

There will be tremendous change, I am very sure about it.

Now the times are coming.

We have to learn lesson from the previous destructions

of the atomic experiments, you see.

Still we have not forgotten Hiroshima, you see, in Japan, still.

Those people are still suffering.

We can't forget it.

So, we must learn lesson and spread the message of love

as during the time of Ashoka.

There was all peace, there were no wars.

And he sent

his own daughter and son to Sri Lanka

and to China

and in the eastern countries, you see.

How it was spread from one person sitting under the bodhi tree.

How this message of peace was spread

throughout the world.

I'm very sure that this flame is very powerful

and love is very powerful.

And this conflagration cannot be stopped even with chemical weapons.

You simply meditate

even in your own apartment,

even in your own apartment, all alone, you will see the result.

Keep quiet.

Send the message of peace.

Let there be peace all over the world.

Let all beings live happy, in peace.

And what about this?

What about this wave length?

This has to work.

Let's pray that it does.

Let's pray that it does.

Let's hope that it does.

Let's hope.

- Let's hope that it does.
- Not hope. Hope not, I don't believe in hope.

Hope is future.

Let us, let us trust in Supreme Power.

Even this, let us trust, let us thrust on Supreme Power.

And, it will look after very well, you see.

It would change instantly.

So, you pray to Supreme Power,

"Please, help us to be in peace with all living beings."

"Please teach us." Not to others. To others, is very easy to teach others.

First let us learn ourselves, you see.

So, don't help others, as you are writing, asking a question.

You first help yourself.

Teach yourself, learn yourself.

What have you learned, what have you learned from your years as a teacher?

What have you learned from your years as a teacher?

I'm not a teacher. Who told you I am a teacher?

Who told you?

Who told you?

I never told. Ask, so many people are here.

I've never, not a teacher.

Teachers, teaching, is always of the past.

And a teacher is one who tells you do this, do that.

If you don't you will go to hell.

This is a teacher.

I'm neither a teacher nor a preacher.

Ok, I'll rephrase the question.

What have you learned from sitting in this spot at satsang over the years?

Love. Only love.

Only love.

I love them. I love them and I love them.

Why them Papa, don't you love me too?

Because you are my beloved.

You are seated next to me.

You are seated next to me, is it not?

- Thank you, Papa.
- Thank you for coming here.

Thank you for coming here.

I thank you. We are all, on behalf of myself,

I thank you.

And on behalf of my children,

I thank you again and again.

I'm very happy for your questions, no?

We are all benefitted with your, with these questions, and

with this satsang also

and this vibration and all what has happened.

It is not confined only to this Satsang Bhavan.

It is already transmitted all over the world, you will see

Papa, you have a very broad wave length.

Any kind of dish can receive this signal.

Any kind of dish, any size dish can receive your signal.

No dish and no signal.

You don't need any signals, you see.

You need two to be, to signal to.

You need two to signal to, isn't it?

The transmitter and the receiver.

Yes, yes.

When will I learn?

Now!

You are answering my question, no?

You asked me so many questions and I asked you only one question.

And here is the answer.

Here is the signal without signaling, isn't it?

Beautiful.

What is this?

At least you can tell me now.

Interview is over.

Now you can at least tell me.

What is this? What is this?

What is this enjoyment?

Now you see, all cells are enjoying, do you see now?

Enjoying nectar.

I'm very happy.

You answered them all.

- You answered them all.
- All, atchaa

I thought there was some pretty tricky questions.

They all have exactly the same answer.