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Hello everyone and welcome to
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a different kind of video. Today I'm
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joined by Dr. Shayla Vradenburgh,
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who is the founder, what would
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you call it? Founder of Revolting
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Science Resources. And I'm gonna
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let her explain what that is. But today,
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because I was trained in the UK and
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Shayla was trained in the US, we are
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going to talk about the differences
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between the UK versus US PhD. So
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Shayla, do you wanna introduce
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yourself? So, yeah. My name is Dr.
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Shayla Vradenburgh. I am the founder
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of Revolting Science Resources,
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which is a company that's designed
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to bring the principles of project
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management to academic scientists
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and researchers. I realized while
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I was finishing up my PhD and
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afterwards when I kind of learned
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a little more about project management,
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how vital it is to the work that we
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do as researchers. And so I created
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a company that's all about kind of
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ways that you can implement
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some of those principles in the
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work that you do.
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And Shayla also gives presentations
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at conferences and at institutions.
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So, you know, please consider bringing
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her in. She is great. I did see her
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present at the National Postdoctoral
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Association. So yeah, that's a bit
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about Shayla. You all know me
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because you are on my YouTube
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channel. I'm Kate, I'm the founder
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of EduKatedSTEM, and normally I
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talk about education and professional
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development. So this slots in beautifully
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because at the beginning of your
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career you might be considering
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whether you should do a PhD. And
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also maybe where you should do
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one because whether you are
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international, whether you're from
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the UK, or the US, students come
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from each country all the time. And
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there are videos on YouTube already,
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from various people explaining why
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they chose various countries or not.
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So I encourage you to look at those,
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but Shayla and I will be talking about
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our personal experiences and also
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the information that is relevant today,
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which is in May, 2025 because we
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did do a little bit of researching
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around this area. So how about we
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talk about the application process.
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Do you wanna go first, Shayla?
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Yeah. So I will say it's been a few
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years since I've applied. I applied
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back in 2017, so it's again, been a
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few years, but for that application
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process, most of the time it looks
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pretty similar for a lot of different
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universities. And also what I'll say
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is I got my PhD in neuroscience
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and in a lot of institutions in the
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US that can be in kind of different
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places. For me, most of the places
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I applied, it was part of the school
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of medicine, but sometimes you
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can have it be parts of different
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biology departments or the college
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of arts and sciences. And so, sometimes
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things can vary based off of what
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department or school that you're
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applying to. For kind of mostly like
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these biomedical science school
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of medicine things, there's also
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sometimes umbrella programs.
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So some of the institutions I
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applied to, you actually apply to
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an umbrella program and then
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you kind of select your specialization
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afterwards. Some of them will let
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you apply directly to a specialization.
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So, some of those kind of nuances
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are a little different. But a lot of the
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time it requires some sort of cover
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letter or at least like personal statement,
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some sort of, you know, like basically
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talking a little about the things
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you've accomplished in a CV. Having
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letters of recommendation and a
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lot of it is really predicated on how
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much research experience you have.
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They really wanna see some tangible
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ways that you've actually gained
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some experience that's relevant to
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the work that you're hoping to do.
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And then there normally is an
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application fee. I know when I was
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applying, I actually went to a national
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conference called SACNAS, and
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while I was there, I actually was
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able to get a lot of waivers for
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different institutions that I didn't
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actually have to pay that application
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fee. But that can be another thing
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that kind of adds up if you're applying
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to a lot of different institutions.
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And yeah, I think those were like
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most of the components for kind
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of applying. I think it honestly was
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a little similar when you're thinking
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about like applying for undergrad
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versus applying for grad school.
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I also know too, like sometimes
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the GRE, or like the GMAT, was
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a test you would take. I took
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the GRE, it was required when
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I applied, but I think about two
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years into my grad program,
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they actually got rid of that
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requirement at my institution
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and at a good number of
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institutions. So something
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though to keep in mind to
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definitely think about is whether
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or not that test might be
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something you need to include.
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I will say that having sat on
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an admissions committee,
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how you do on the GRE or
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the GMAT does not indicate
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how well you do in graduate
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school which is one of the
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reasons why we discussed
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dropping it. Because you
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couldn't tell it really didn't
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indicate your success or not.
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Okay, so the British system is
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different. You apply to a specific
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research project with a particular
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professor. So completely different.
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You have to find the listings,
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you find the research that you're
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interested in, and then you
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apply specifically to work for
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that individual. So, you know,
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we don't normally have rotations
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like you do in America because
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you're specifically going for that
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particular project and professor.
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Which is good and bad, because
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what happens if you don't like
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the professor? You're kind of
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stuck. That's it. But that also
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means that you know what
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your project is as soon as you
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come in, there's no surprise.
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You literally applied for it.
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And at least when I applied,
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which was a very long time ago,
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over 20 years ago, there was
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no application fee. You just
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sent your materials off. So
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CV and a cover letter, maybe
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a personal statement. And
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definitely your transcripts
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and letters of recommendation,
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you just sent those off. I can't
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remember how many I actually
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applied for because there was
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no financial component. So I
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could have applied for every
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single one I looked at. And then
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I definitely had a number of
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interviews which were all quite
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different. So Shayla, do you wanna
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talk about your experience for interviews?
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Yeah. So I had a couple of interviews
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that I had scheduled. They look
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pretty much the same though,
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where essentially you kind of start
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by meeting maybe some people
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for an informal sort of like dinner.
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You meet some of the grad students
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or even the faculty that are part
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of the program. Then the next day
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it was normally kind of like a full day.
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You would do interviews with
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different faculty members.
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A lot of the time they'd give
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you the option of people
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you could select or you can
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request specific faculty members
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to meet with. And then they
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kind of have different grad
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students or people kind of walk
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you between all these different
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faculty interviews. And then
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there normally was some sort
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of a panel interview as well, so
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you would meet with, most of
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the time, it was mostly faculty
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with a couple of graduate student
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representatives. And then essentially
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you do a panel interview as well
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and kind of just answer lots of questions
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about your research, talk about
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their research. And I think what's
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also so valuable about this interview
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process is that it's not only an
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opportunity for, you know, these
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institutions to get to know you
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and why you might be a good
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fit, but you can also take that
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opportunity to get to know them
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and see how kind of the grad
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students seem to be in this kind
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of environment or how they seem
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to support them, and how you
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might fit in in that space as well.
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That's a great point. You are
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interviewing them at the same
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time because it's a huge commitment
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and if you choose the wrong
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school or the wrong program,
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then you might not enjoy the
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experience. You might decide
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to leave the program, which
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would be terribly sad. So for my
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interviews, I had to give a scientific
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presentation at some of them
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which was incredibly intimidating.
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I did that for Oxford. And then
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there's multiple interviews with
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different professors. Even if you're
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not wanting to work for them,
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you still get interviewed by
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multiple people. And I definitely
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had a panel interview for the
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PhD program I ended up going to.
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I had a panel and it was actually
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really interesting because there
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were four professors for four
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different proposals. And the
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professor that I interviewed
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for I actually am very glad
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he didn't choose me and I
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didn't get the project. But
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someone else didn't like
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any of his candidates, but
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he liked me. But because
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we'd all interviewed together,
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he offered me a position,
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so yay for the panel!
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Yes. And also, I guess I'm curious,
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for the presentation you had
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to give, was that like a slideshow?
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I know sometimes you do like
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kind of chalkboard.
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No. Full PowerPoint presentation.
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Like an hour long?
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God no, it wasn't an hour, maybe
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10, 15 minutes. Okay. And luckily
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it was because I had previously
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done research in America, so
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I presented on that research. But
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yes, everyone who was being
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considered for that particular
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program, we all have to give
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PowerPoint presentations.
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So I assume all of us had
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previous research experience,
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otherwise, what would you have presented on?
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Yeah, I was wondering that too.
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I was like, hopefully you have.
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Yeah. Similar to to what you said
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about people in like if you've done
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previous research experience,
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so in America, having those summer
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internships are really important if
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you want to move ahead into a PhD program.
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Yeah, for sure. I did a summer research
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program at the University of New Mexico,
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and I think that was one of the most
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kind of transformative things I could
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have done I think for my career. I
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think a) it was just a really hands-on
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time. I got to spend literally a whole
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summer just focusing on research,
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working in a different place, working
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with different lab members.
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Figuring out different techniques.
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And then I got to present that work
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ultimately too at places like SACNAS
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which also kind of helped just broaden
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my range of contacts and different
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people within kind of different areas
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of the world. So, yeah, I would highly
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recommend for anybody who,
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especially as an undergrad and is
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thinking about research, like take a
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summer, there's so many of these
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different programs and a lot of times
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they pay you stipends to participate.
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So yeah, I think it's an incredible experience. Yeah.
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Yeah. So I did a sandwich undergraduate,
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which meant that for my third year,
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my junior year, I had to leave and go
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and have a proper research job so I
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could have gone and worked in a
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pharmaceutical company. But I was
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selected to come to the University
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of Virginia to do a year of cancer research,
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which is how I started off my cancer
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research kind of career because I
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realized, oh, I can do that.
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Yeah, that's,
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and then because that was on
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my CV, and at the time it was
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more unusual in the UK. Because
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sandwich degrees I don't know
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how popular they are now, but
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back then they weren't terribly
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popular. I mean, I got interviewed
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at the majority of the places that I applied for.
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Yeah, I mean, that sounds like an incredible opportunity.
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It was good. Thank you UVA.
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Okay. So I think one of the key
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things about the differences is the
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duration, because a British PhD
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is much shorter. Right. So most
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people finish between three to
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four years. I actually submitted
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my PhD thesis or dissertation in
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under three years, which is unusual,
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but we get them through quicker.
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And we can talk about the reason
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for that in a moment, but Shayla,
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what's the, how long does an American one last?
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Yeah, it can typically range
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somewhere between five to seven
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years. I've seen people extend
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beyond that. I think most of the time
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when you would ask an institution
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what their average is, they'll
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probably say like five and a half to six.
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But yeah, that could definitely be
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a range. And I think especially after
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COVID, I think those numbers increased
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a little bit. But yeah, it's definitely a bit longer.
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Yeah. I've known a couple of
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students who've taken nine, so
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as have I,
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If your professor is willing to keep
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paying you, you just kind of hang
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around which is also not necessarily
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a good thing because you wanna
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get out and do a postdoc and move
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on to the next step of your career.
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Yeah. I think that's something too
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people don't talk a lot about is,
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you know, you generally don't make
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a lot with these PhD stipends.
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Really its oodles of money Shayla!
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I mean, you're right. What am I talking about?
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But, you know, I think for, if you
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think about how long this is, like
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five to seven years, that's a long
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time to be making not the most
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amount of money. And then especially
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if the next step is a postdoc, which
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they are generally underpaid as well.
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You know, you're going to, it's gonna
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take a lot longer before you're actually
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making a salary that kind of helps
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support your life and especially
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the kind of experience that you have.
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Let's talk money. So back 20 years
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ago, I got paid 12,000 pounds per
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year to do my PhD which at the
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time was a very well funded PhD
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and unusually. Tell me how you
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got paid Shayla. I got paid every three months.
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Interesting.
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So I had to budget really well for
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those three months.
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Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.
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And for me, so my PhD was not
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terribly long ago. We actually saw,
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I think, two increases during the
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time I was doing my PhD, but I
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started at 30,500 and that honestly
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isn't like, I think that is a generally
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well-funded PhD. I think Charlottesville
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is a little bit of a pricier area, but
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honestly I didn't have a problem
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living with that stipend. We saw a
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couple of increases, so I think by
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the time I finished, I think it ended
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up around 33,500, somewhere
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around there. I think you asked me
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another question though, and I forgot it.
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No, I just realized, did I just say I
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did my research at UVA? I did it at VCU.
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Oh, yeah. Oh, so you did it at VCU?
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Wait, I just said the wrong university.
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I was like, I didn't know that you went to UVA.
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No, no. I've been to, I've visited UVA.
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No, I was in Richmond.
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Okay, that's close. It's really,
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I was like, it had Virginia in the title,
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but that is so wrong. Amnesia.
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I was like, I feel like Why, why did
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we not talk about this before?
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No, no. I went, it was a VCU. I was
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at the Massey Cancer Center
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the Virginia Commonwealth University.
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I'm going crazy at the grand old
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age of 45. When you said you, I
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was like, wait, I didn't go to Charlottesville.
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I am going nuts. I'm sorry, Shayla.
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Oh, that's fine.
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Okay, so, so that's how much you
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got paid. So how much were you
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making at the end? Because you
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started at 30.
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Yeah, I think it ended up around,
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I feel like it was 33, but there's a
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chance it was 35. One of those two numbers.
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Okay. So it went up a decent
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amount though, in a couple of years.
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Yeah. Ultimately it took me six year
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to complete my PhD. So over the
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course of six years that's how much we went up.
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Okay. So a stipend currently in the UK,
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and this is for 2025 to 2026, you
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would probably make just under 21,000
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pounds. And importantly that stipend
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isn't taxed, so you get all of the money.
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Yeah. Yes. And how much, how much is
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an American one? I actually don't
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know what the current numbers are.
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That's a good question.
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I put it in there.
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There we go. It's like 20 to 50.
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20 to 50 K. Yeah. I was like,
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I don't know. I, I think too, it's so
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varying depending on where you
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live as well. Like I know that some,
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you know, places, especially in
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pricier areas like California or
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New York, they might be able to
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give you a better stipend because
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your cost of living is gonna be
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significantly more than someone
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may be in Texas or Tennessee
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So it is like probably a very wide range.
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I think that that also is to do with
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humanities versus STEM because
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I wasn't necessarily looking just
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for STEM. Yeah. So I think that
-
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might've incorporated some
-
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humanities and they are
-
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unfortunately paid a lot less
-
Not Synced
than STEM degrees, I don't know why.
-
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And Yeah. And being part of the
-
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School of Medicine, I think we
-
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some of the best paid grad students
-
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on the campus.
-
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Wouldn't surprise me.
-
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Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. But yeah,
-
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so, but ours is also taxed, so most
-
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of the time I think it sometimes can
-
Not Synced
be a little confusing and maybe
-
Not Synced
even frustrating about how the
-
Not Synced
stipend works in America because
-
Not Synced
you generally don't get something
-
Not Synced
like a W2 that you can easily submit
-
Not Synced
to pay your taxes. Nothing's withheld.
-
Not Synced
So you need to withhold yourself
-
Not Synced
and make sure that you're paying
-
Not Synced
it properly. So it can be a little bit
-
Not Synced
more to figure out and not as easy
-
Not Synced
or convenient, but you do have to pay taxes on it.
-
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Did your graduate school have
-
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like a presentation once a year
-
Not Synced
to help you do your taxes? Because
-
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I know some schools do that.
-
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No, and that would've been great.
-
Not Synced
I know some do, and I know, I
-
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think even mine has started to do
-
Not Synced
things, but when we were starting,
-
Not Synced
they literally had kind of like meetings
-
Not Synced
that were basically like, we will
-
Not Synced
not help you with your taxes. This is
-
Not Synced
your responsibility. You guys figure it out.
-
Not Synced
The don't want to get sued!
-
Not Synced
Like, I don't know what the ultimate goal
-
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of that was, but I'm glad they're
-
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starting to incorporate work.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. No, we, we definitely did
-
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it until we got told that, you know,
-
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we could get sued if they got given
-
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the wrong information. So we did it for
-
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a while and then it stopped at the
-
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graduate school I was an associate
-
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dean for. Okay. So another big
-
Not Synced
thing is the fees that you pay. So
-
Not Synced
in the UK if you're a domestic student,
-
Not Synced
you are gonna pay just short of 5,000
-
Not Synced
pounds, and that's per year. If you're
-
Not Synced
an international student, you are
-
Not Synced
going to pay significantly more,
-
Not Synced
anywhere between 20 and 35,000
-
Not Synced
pounds. And then in addition to that,
-
Not Synced
we have something called a bench
-
Not Synced
fee or a research support fee, so
-
Not Synced
that basically helps to pay for all
-
Not Synced
of the things that you use in the lab.
-
Not Synced
Which could be anywhere between
-
Not Synced
1000 to 10,000 pounds and that's
-
Not Synced
per year. And then obviously if you
-
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get a scholarship or some kind of
-
Not Synced
thing through your program, they
-
Not Synced
might pay for a portion or all of that.
-
Not Synced
So luckily for me, I had to pay
-
Not Synced
zero which is awesome. But some
-
Not Synced
people do have to pay. So what
-
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are the fees in America?
-
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Yeah, so we also have tuition
-
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and I think there generally tends
-
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to be things like in-state versus
-
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out of state. And then obviously
-
Not Synced
if you're an international student.
-
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What I will say is at least in the
-
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school of medicine, and when I
-
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was in grad school, we got our
-
Not Synced
tuition waived. So no one paid
-
Not Synced
for tuition. We also got free health
-
Not Synced
insurance and yeah, so it, it ended
-
Not Synced
up being something that wasn't
-
Not Synced
really a cost that came out of the
-
Not Synced
stipend that we received. Generally
-
Not Synced
though, how it would work is there's
-
Not Synced
like a period in which the actual,
-
Not Synced
like the school of medicine paid
-
Not Synced
for your stipend until you joined a
-
Not Synced
lab, and then your PI would likely
-
Not Synced
have to take over those tuition
-
Not Synced
costs essentially from, yeah, the school.
-
Not Synced
So even though you aren't gonna
-
Not Synced
have to get it taken out of your,
-
Not Synced
you know, like actual stipend,
-
Not Synced
somebody is likely paying for it
-
Not Synced
in some way, or there might be
-
Not Synced
waivers that exist for portions
-
Not Synced
or all of your kind of schooling
-
Not Synced
or training there. But yeah, I think
-
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it totally just kind of depends
-
Not Synced
on the program. And again, like
-
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the school of medicine got a
-
Not Synced
lot of perks that other kind of
-
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departments and schools did
-
Not Synced
not get so I think in terms of
-
Not Synced
fees and things like that, if you
-
Not Synced
are at universities that aren't
-
Not Synced
going to offer tuition waivers
-
Not Synced
or are gonna require you to pay
-
Not Synced
for some of that, it could range
-
Not Synced
anywhere from, you know, like six
-
Not Synced
to $11,000 for instate up to 25
-
Not Synced
plus for out of state or international
-
Not Synced
students. So could be a big range.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. And I think that it is important
-
Not Synced
to note that if you're out of state,
-
Not Synced
that's the same fee you pay as an
-
Not Synced
international student. Yes.
-
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Which to me is incredible because,
-
Not Synced
you know, if you go from, I don't know,
-
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Texas to California, it almost feels
-
Not Synced
like you should be paying less than
-
Not Synced
someone who's coming from an
-
Not Synced
international country. So that's a
-
Not Synced
bargain frankly. If you are going out
-
Not Synced
of state, um, it's a little crazy. And
-
Not Synced
then there is a difference between
-
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a public institution and a private
-
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institution. So did you wanna say
-
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what the difference between those are?
-
Not Synced
In terms of the cost?
-
Not Synced
Uh, well, the cost, but also like what
-
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is the difference? Like if someone
-
Not Synced
doesn't know the difference between
-
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a public institution and a private,
-
Not Synced
so what is the difference between them?
-
Not Synced
Yeah. Most of the time that's generally
-
Not Synced
kind of how they're funded. So a
-
Not Synced
lot of public institutions are gonna
-
Not Synced
be funded by state or even federal
-
Not Synced
funds. Whereas private institutions
-
Not Synced
are generally not, they might still
-
Not Synced
receive them in some capacity, but
-
Not Synced
they generally don't have to follow
-
Not Synced
some of the specific kind of guidelines
-
Not Synced
or rules. They get a little bit more
-
Not Synced
freedom sometimes in the ways
-
Not Synced
that they're able to operate and
-
Not Synced
they generally aren't receiving those
-
Not Synced
state or federal funds. But yeah,
-
Not Synced
in terms of the cost, that generally
-
Not Synced
makes those private institutions a
-
Not Synced
lot more expensive. And so the public
-
Not Synced
institutions tend to be a bit more
-
Not Synced
affordable, especially when you're
-
Not Synced
thinking about the tuition costs.
-
Not Synced
And the way that I think of a public
-
Not Synced
institution is it's usually like the
-
Not Synced
state schools. So like the University
-
Not Synced
of California would be a public
-
Not Synced
institution or the University of Maryland
-
Not Synced
or Virginia, or actually is UVA is that public?
-
Not Synced
Yes, but the one that always trips
-
Not Synced
me up is the University of Pennsylvania.
-
Not Synced
That one is a private institution.
-
Not Synced
Oh, it is? I'm pretty sure someone
-
Not Synced
can come for me, but I'm pretty sure.
-
Not Synced
So I know that if you're interested
-
Not Synced
if you've heard of the Ivy League,
-
Not Synced
that's only for a small portion of the
-
Not Synced
country and it's only a few universities,
-
Not Synced
but there's now lists for different categories.
-
Not Synced
So there's now something called
-
Not Synced
the Public Ivy League table, which
-
Not Synced
comprises of universities across
-
Not Synced
the whole of the country which is
-
Not Synced
awesome. So if you want to go
-
Not Synced
somewhere, which you're still gonna
-
Not Synced
get a great education, but it's
-
Not Synced
not gonna cost the world look up
-
Not Synced
the public list of Ivy Leagues and
-
Not Synced
just to give you a hint, my favorite,
-
Not Synced
the UC's are all in there. So University
-
Not Synced
of California, totally representing.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. I think too, both of the schools
-
Not Synced
I attended, the University of Virginia
-
Not Synced
and the University of Florida think
-
Not Synced
have made the public Ivy list. But
-
Not Synced
yeah, so it's, yeah, you can still
-
Not Synced
a great education and it not cost
-
Not Synced
the world, which I think is something
-
Not Synced
that people sometimes forget. Yeah. Yeah.
-
Not Synced
Sounds, just because prestige doesn't
-
Not Synced
mean that it's necessarily going to
-
Not Synced
give you an amazing it. Remember, it
-
Not Synced
also depends on your professor and
-
Not Synced
the people in the lab who are training you.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. Definitely, and I think, I honestly
-
Not Synced
didn't even know that you could get
-
Not Synced
paid at one point for going to a,
-
Not Synced
especially like a PhD program, especially
-
Not Synced
a lot of the ones in the United States,
-
Not Synced
they tend to at least give you some
-
Not Synced
sort of a stipend and a lot of the times they'll
-
Not Synced
waive your tuition so you don't even
-
Not Synced
have to pay those fees. But you're
-
Not Synced
able to get a good education. You're
-
Not Synced
maybe not making a ton of money,
-
Not Synced
but you are getting that degree from
-
Not Synced
a great institution for not quite as much.
-
Not Synced
Possibly getting more than the Brits.
-
Not Synced
I guess we need to do the, the pound
-
Not Synced
versus dollar conversion. Yeah.
-
Not Synced
That would've been clever for me to
-
Not Synced
do that, but I did not look into that.
-
Not Synced
I guess it depends on the day,
-
Not Synced
so I guess it doesn't matter.
-
Not Synced
True.
-
Not Synced
Okay, so we, should we talk about
-
Not Synced
funding? Because at home in the
-
Not Synced
UK we have a number of different
-
Not Synced
ways that you can get funded.
-
Not Synced
A lot of them are different research
-
Not Synced
councils, depending on your research
-
Not Synced
focus. So a couple of them would
-
Not Synced
be the Biotechnology and Bioscience
-
Not Synced
Research Council, or the BBSRC.
-
Not Synced
You also have the Engineering and
-
Not Synced
Physical Sciences Research Council,
-
Not Synced
or the EPSRC, and then you can get
-
Not Synced
private funding from like Cancer Research
-
Not Synced
UK or someone else. So it depends.
-
Not Synced
You might be able to apply for your
-
Not Synced
own funding, but usually if your professor
-
Not Synced
has put a position out there, they've
-
Not Synced
got the funding for three years.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. So funding is a little different
-
Not Synced
for a lot of the institutions in the US.
-
Not Synced
So part of it is that your PI might
-
Not Synced
have funding, you know, for a project
-
Not Synced
you're working on initially, they might
-
Not Synced
not, but they could still take you.
-
Not Synced
And then on top of that, like you
-
Not Synced
can obviously apply for your own
-
Not Synced
funding. They can apply for other
-
Not Synced
funding for different projects that
-
Not Synced
you work on. The largest funder,
-
Not Synced
especially for biomedical research
-
Not Synced
in the US is the National Institutes
-
Not Synced
of Health at the NIH. So most people
-
Not Synced
have some sort of a grant from the
-
Not Synced
NIH, at especially R1 or kind of like
-
Not Synced
really high level research institutes
-
Not Synced
in the US. Other options are places
-
Not Synced
like the National Science Foundation
-
Not Synced
or NSF, that funds a ton of people
-
Not Synced
as well. There's also private funding
-
Not Synced
and then also there tends to be a
-
Not Synced
lot of internal ways that you can
-
Not Synced
make, you know, basically get scholarships
-
Not Synced
from your institution. So there's
-
Not Synced
normally grants or foundations they
-
Not Synced
also have to do like training grants
-
Not Synced
as well, especially kind of for those
-
Not Synced
first couple years of your PhD that
-
Not Synced
you're able to apply for and get
-
Not Synced
some funding for as well.
-
Not Synced
I will say scholarships are, are
-
Not Synced
kind of fun, at our graduate school
-
Not Synced
we had a few competitions depending
-
Not Synced
on what year you were in. And so
-
Not Synced
first years could win and that was
-
Not Synced
due to their academic performance
-
Not Synced
in courses. And then for later years
-
Not Synced
it might be on a research proposal
-
Not Synced
that they've put in and it was looked
-
Not Synced
at similar to like a mini grant proposal
-
Not Synced
where it got reviewed by a team and
-
Not Synced
then the winners won the scholarship.
-
Not Synced
So look out for those if you are gonna
-
Not Synced
go to school because having those
-
Not Synced
on your CV will definitely help you
-
Not Synced
in the future because they are
-
Not Synced
quite prestigious to win.
-
Not Synced
Yeah, definitely. And also at our
-
Not Synced
institution, if you ever did get
-
Not Synced
some of those bigger grants,
-
Not Synced
especially from the NSF or the NIH,
-
Not Synced
they actually would give you an
-
Not Synced
extra bump in your stipend. So
-
Not Synced
you've got like a little extra bonus
-
Not Synced
for getting awards like the F31.
-
Not Synced
So yeah, those are other ways that
-
Not Synced
you can even just make a little extra.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So should we talk
-
Not Synced
about the structure? Yeah, because
-
Not Synced
they are quite different.
-
Not Synced
Yes. And I wonder too, I'm curious if
-
Not Synced
this also plays into maybe some
-
Not Synced
of the difference in the timeframes.
-
Not Synced
Oh, it has. It absolutely has to.
-
Not Synced
Yes. But yeah, so at least in kind
-
Not Synced
of the biomedical sciences in
-
Not Synced
particular, but most of the PhD
-
Not Synced
programs, again you're thinking
-
Not Synced
about this in roughly the average
-
Not Synced
of five and a half to six years. And
-
Not Synced
normally those first two years are
-
Not Synced
gonna be really heavy on a lot of
-
Not Synced
different courses and other things
-
Not Synced
that you need to take as requirements.
-
Not Synced
For our institution, the way they
-
Not Synced
did it was actually like you came
-
Not Synced
in as like kind of a group and a
-
Not Synced
cohort from all different, again,
-
Not Synced
kind of disciplines underneath
-
Not Synced
some sort of umbrella of biomedical
-
Not Synced
sciences. We had to take a course
-
Not Synced
altogether that was called the core
-
Not Synced
course. It was kind of just like ultimately
-
Not Synced
like kind of the main things you
-
Not Synced
need to know, but kind of what that
-
Not Synced
looks like can vary so much between
-
Not Synced
different institutions. Like literally
-
Not Synced
between every different program
-
Not Synced
there can be different requirements
-
Not Synced
on what the courses look like. And
-
Not Synced
then we have lots of the required
-
Not Synced
courses like ethics or kind of also
-
Not Synced
just like stats, data courses. But
-
Not Synced
pretty much by the end of your
-
Not Synced
second year, those were all done.
-
Not Synced
There were very few courses you
-
Not Synced
needed to take beyond that.
-
Not Synced
And then you primarily focused
-
Not Synced
on doing research and then that
-
Not Synced
also kind of broke things up as
-
Not Synced
well in terms of like exams and
-
Not Synced
ways that you kind of progressed
-
Not Synced
through the program. So it's like
-
Not Synced
the first two years are kind of course
-
Not Synced
heavy. Then roughly around your
-
Not Synced
second year you need to do a
-
Not Synced
qualifying exam, and that's when
-
Not Synced
you move from a PhD student to
-
Not Synced
a PhD candidate. If you pass, those
-
Not Synced
look also very different. So maybe
-
Not Synced
that's something we can talk about
-
Not Synced
too, is what all these kind of candidacy
-
Not Synced
exams look like. But then you roughly
-
Not Synced
do research for kind of the remainder
-
Not Synced
of those four-ish years, and then that
-
Not Synced
ultimately ends with you defending
-
Not Synced
your dissertation.
-
Not Synced
Okay, so the English system or the
-
Not Synced
British system is quite different.
-
Not Synced
So the way I look at it is because
-
Not Synced
we specialize earlier. So I did an
-
Not Synced
applied biochemistry and molecular
-
Not Synced
biology undergraduate degree. So
-
Not Synced
from the age of 18, that's all I did.
-
Not Synced
So I covered biology, chemistry,
-
Not Synced
maths, statistics. I didn't do do any
-
Not Synced
other language. I didn't do any
-
Not Synced
humanities. It was pure science.
-
Not Synced
And so we don't do any classes,
-
Not Synced
we don't do any courses, presumably
-
Not Synced
because we've covered more of it
-
Not Synced
in our undergrad. And I can tell you
-
Not Synced
that having had British students in
-
Not Synced
the graduate school that I worked in,
-
Not Synced
when they did their courses, they
-
Not Synced
just felt that they were relearning
-
Not Synced
the same information. They weren't
-
Not Synced
stretched in any way. They, you know,
-
Not Synced
felt that it was utter nonsense.
-
Not Synced
But they were forced to basically do
-
Not Synced
it again which they were very
-
Not Synced
disappointed in. So we go straight
-
Not Synced
in because you know what your project
-
Not Synced
is, there's no rotations. You go in
-
Not Synced
on day one, you start doing your
-
Not Synced
literature review, learning your topic,
-
Not Synced
and then get trained by the people
-
Not Synced
in the lab on various techniques
-
Not Synced
and other things. I had a meeting
-
Not Synced
with someone from my university.
-
Not Synced
It was actually in between my
-
Not Synced
second and third year, but they'd
-
Not Synced
essentially forgotten me. It's supposed
-
Not Synced
to be done between the first
-
Not Synced
and second year but because I
-
Not Synced
did my PhD and I wasn't on the
-
Not Synced
university campus, I was at the
-
Not Synced
medical research laboratory, so I was
-
Not Synced
at a completely different place
-
Not Synced
about 30 miles away. So eventually
-
Not Synced
when all of my friends who were
-
Not Synced
the year below me were doing this,
-
Not Synced
I was like, wait, am I supposed to
-
Not Synced
do that? And so I contacted them
-
Not Synced
and they were like, oh, yeah, you are,
-
Not Synced
you know, so write a short paper.
-
Not Synced
It was like, I don't know, 10, 15 pages
-
Not Synced
on my research. And then I had to
-
Not Synced
go in and meet with an internal professor,
-
Not Synced
and we just had a conversation
-
Not Synced
for like an hour on my research. And
-
Not Synced
he asked me lots of questions and
-
Not Synced
it was actually really helpful because
-
Not Synced
he ended up being my examiner. And
-
Not Synced
because of that conversation, I
-
Not Synced
knew that he wasn't gonna ask me
-
Not Synced
questions on the proteins that I was
-
Not Synced
researching. He was gonna ask me
-
Not Synced
the questions on the proteins that
-
Not Synced
he was researching, which were
-
Not Synced
somewhat in the same pathway,
-
Not Synced
but I wasn't researching his proteins.
-
Not Synced
So that definitely helped. And
-
Not Synced
then at three years, I handed in
-
Not Synced
my dissertation and then a few
-
Not Synced
months later, it takes a little longer
-
Not Synced
in the UK to have your exam and
-
Not Synced
we call it, this is gonna sound really
-
Not Synced
funny, we always called it a viva.
-
Not Synced
But when I Googled it, because I have
-
Not Synced
heard it called a viva, and like we used
-
Not Synced
to laugh at people going, viva, that's
-
Not Synced
wrong. It's a viva. But according to
-
Not Synced
Google, the technical term is a viva
-
Not Synced
voce, which is Latin for oral exam.
-
Not Synced
That makes sense.
-
Not Synced
So viva, viva. I'm gonna say viva
-
Not Synced
because that's what we always
-
Not Synced
used to say, but maybe my Latin,
-
Not Synced
which is non-existent is wrong.
-
Not Synced
It's understandable that maybe
-
Not Synced
it's not quite polished.
-
Not Synced
Not really. But no, it was definitely
-
Not Synced
a moment. But I'm very thankful
-
Not Synced
for that mini exam because without
-
Not Synced
it, I wouldn't have known how to
-
Not Synced
handle my proper one because I
-
Not Synced
literally spent weeks before my
-
Not Synced
exam researching his proteins,
-
Not Synced
which had nothing to do with mine.
-
Not Synced
Yeah, that's so interesting.
-
Not Synced
So, yeah. So should we talk about
-
Not Synced
what the defense looks like?
-
Not Synced
Yeah, so I guess too, I can like
-
Not Synced
back up and talk a little about our
-
Not Synced
qualifying exam. So that generally
-
Not Synced
for most programs, essentially
-
Not Synced
looked like creating specific things
-
Not Synced
like specific aims page, and that's
-
Not Synced
what you would send out to a committee
-
Not Synced
that you assemble. And then
-
Not Synced
basically they'd read that and
-
Not Synced
then you do a presentation
-
Not Synced
where you walk through what
-
Not Synced
you're planning to do for your
-
Not Synced
dissertation project. I was in a
-
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program that decided to kind of
-
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change things up and do something
-
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different. So also, again, like things
-
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are so dependent on different
-
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departments and schools. I actually
-
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did, like, after my second year, we
-
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wrote a review paper and then that
-
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is actually what we did a presentation
-
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on, essentially kind of the background
-
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of whatever our research project was.
-
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Then following our third year, we essentially
-
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had to do the specific aims page and talk
-
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about our actual research project,
-
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which people have mixed opinions about.
-
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And then again, that kind of at the
-
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end was that dissertation defense,
-
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the way also dissertations are written
-
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can vary so much between different
-
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disciplines, schools, universities,
-
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and the requirements that they have.
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UVA was very relaxed with their
-
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requirements for the dissertation.
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It was essentially, you write kind of
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an introduction, you write conclusion,
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but you kind of staple all of your
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papers and all the work that you've
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done kind of in between. And I
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don't know if anybody actually
-
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read my whole dissertation. So
-
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there was that. I don't think anybody
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did. I, you essentially give it out to
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your committee, a bit before you
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actually defend. But I don't think
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a single person read the whole thing.
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How long was it? Because I'm
-
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used to people waiting like a few weeks.
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Yeah. So when they found out that
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I waited, like I think mine was. I
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handed mine in in September
-
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and I didn't defend until towards
-
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the middle to the end of November.
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So that was definitely two months.
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Yeah. I think generally it's recommended
-
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Yeah. To give like a couple weeks to
-
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a month beforehand to let like your
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committee look at it. But honestly,
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I, again, like I don't, I don't know how
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many of them actually take any of
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that time to read through it. So, the
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actual defense though, is generally
-
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split up between a private and a
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public defense. And that also can
-
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look really different depending on
-
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the institution that you're at. The way
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our university, like my department also,
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not even just everyone at UVA, but
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my department did it by first you do
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a private defense, and so it's just your
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committee. You do a presentation
-
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talking about everything that's basically
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in your dissertation. They grill you,
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ask you a bunch of questions, but then
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if they approve and they think that
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it kind of meets the standards, then
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you pass. And then you pretty much
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set like the last requirement is to do
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a public defense, but if you've passed
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your private, you are guaranteed pretty
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much to pass at that point. And so
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then you do a public defense. That's when
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you can invite other people, friends,
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family, and then do a public defense.
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Basically the same presentation that
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you gave to your committee, you do
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again in public. Some kind of departments
-
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do them together. So it's like you'll first
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do this public defense where everybody
-
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comes, you do that presentation and
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then you have the private defense
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but right after that and then your
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whole committee just grills you on
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what you presented. But generally it
-
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looks like one of those two things.
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And I've heard that for most places,
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they generally don't even let you get
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to the point of like scheduling that
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defense if they don't think that you're
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ready to pass it. So most people end
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up passing their dissertation defenses.
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Yeah. Do you, have you known anyone
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who got sent back and had to continue
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working or not?
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Not for the dissertation defense. I
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have for the qualifying exam but not
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for the dissertation defense, no
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Okay. So yeah, ours is definitely
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different. So I actually, I think
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it's because I was based at two
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different places. because I got
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my degree from a university, but
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was based at the medical research
-
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council. So I gave a lecture or a
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presentation at the MRC. And then
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I went to my university and gave a
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seminar there which was completely
-
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separate. So two completely different
-
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days. And then that was before the
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end of September. And then I had my
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defense in November. And my defense
-
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was just with two people. So I had one
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external examiner who was an expert
-
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in my field, and then I had the same
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internal examiner who I'd already met
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with and therefore, you know, prepared for.
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And normally we always got told
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that the external examiner is gonna
-
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be the worst one because they are
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the expert in your field. Mine wasn't,
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it was my internal, and that's purely
-
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because he just kept asking me
-
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questions related to his research,
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which was great. Thankfully I had
-
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already prepared for that but still
-
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it was a struggle. And, then you
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can have a few different things can
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come out of that you can pass
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with no corrections whatsoever,
-
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which is incredibly rare. You can
-
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pass with some corrections, or I
-
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have known people to either fail
-
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outright or be sent back to either
-
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do more research or to rewrite
-
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parts or all of their thesis. So
-
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I have known that to happen. And
-
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so I had to do some changes, and
-
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it was just nitpicky. And it was so
-
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funny because when you said that
-
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people didn't read your thesis, both
-
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of mine had read the entire thing.
-
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They had tabs on the various pages,
-
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and my exam was basically going
-
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through page by page and then them
-
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asking me the relevant questions that
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they'd come up with on that page,
-
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I answered them and then we kept going.
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So they definitely, very different.
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They'll definitely read it because there
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were notes and like sometimes they'd
-
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be like, we just don't like the way you
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wrote this. But then there'd be a note.
-
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And so I got basically a list of the things
-
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that they wanted corrected, and it
-
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was so nitpicky. It was because my
-
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thesis was on DNA repair. So obviously
-
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one of the first publications that I
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referenced was Watson and Crick right.
-
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Except I'd only put in like one initial
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and they wanted all four. It was, it was
-
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great. It was great. And so I had to
-
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change them and then I had to email
-
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per chapter, to my internal examiner
-
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surprise, my internal, so he could check
-
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that I had corrected it and then I was
-
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allowed to print it out for the final copy
-
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and he checked every single one.
-
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Yeah. Yeah. I think it totally, it's so
-
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variable and I think too, part of it is
-
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like the PI that I worked with that was
-
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not something that they personally
-
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thought was as valuable to like comb
-
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through. Like they cared much more
-
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about doing that with publications
-
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than your dissertation. And especially
-
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since the way that ours worked was
-
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essentially you putting all of your
-
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publications just kind of like in the
-
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middle of your dissertation.
-
Not Synced
A lot of that they probably already
-
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looked through with the fine tooth comb.
-
Not Synced
But yeah, no, I think that's, that's
-
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kind of interesting just how wide a
-
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variety there can be in terms of the
-
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scrutiny. Yeah. 'cause my publications
-
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were at the end. So they were like,
-
Not Synced
we had to read them to get to the
-
Not Synced
publications. And then how about
-
Not Synced
were publications required? Because
-
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they weren't required and I don't think
-
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there's, they're required in the UK
-
Not Synced
because obviously you may or may not
-
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be lucky enough to get a publication
-
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if you're depending on how
-
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your research pans out.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. And at my particular program,
-
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it was required that you had a first
-
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author publication to defend.
-
Not Synced
You had to have at least one, you
-
Not Synced
had to be the first author and it had
-
Not Synced
to be published. And I think that is
-
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one of the reasons too, for that
-
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extended timeline, because like you
-
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said, like so often research fails, you
-
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do not have positive data that most
-
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publications like journals are going
-
Not Synced
to wanna publish. And so it can take
-
Not Synced
a lot more time to just actually create
-
Not Synced
some sort of a story that's going to
-
Not Synced
eventually get published. But yeah,
-
Not Synced
it was a requirement. But to be fair,
-
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again, like it's so variable because like
-
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even within kind of the different
-
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departments that kind of made up
-
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overall, like all the biomedical sciences
-
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at UVA, like one did not have the
-
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requirement, mine did. And so again,
-
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it's just kind of like all over the place
-
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in terms of what the requirements are.
-
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Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a bit harsh
-
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because especially nowadays, it can
-
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take such a long time for your paper
-
Not Synced
to get reviewed by a journal. And then
-
Not Synced
they might want changes or they might
-
Not Synced
just, you know, reject it and then
-
Not Synced
you've gotta do that process again.
-
Not Synced
Like if you needed that to graduate,
-
Not Synced
you could be spending so many more
-
Not Synced
years just waiting for that paper to
-
Not Synced
get approved and to go through.
-
Not Synced
I know people who have waited
-
Not Synced
years to basically to get a paper
-
Not Synced
That just doesn't seem right to me
-
Not Synced
because you're still making $30,000.
-
Not Synced
You're not getting, you don't
-
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paid postdoc salary because you're
-
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practically done. Is it? What ABD,
-
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all but dissertation is what everyone
-
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says. So you're like waiting and you
-
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are like, this paper is hopefully going
-
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to be coming through. That just seems
-
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really unnecessary to me because
-
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you've done the work. I mean, I can
-
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kind of see both ways and I know
-
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that at one time I should have looked
-
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into it. I wanna say if you graduate
-
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with a PhD from a Scandinavian
-
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country, you have to have multiple
-
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first author papers. It's not just one.
-
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Yeah, I, I had not heard that. That
-
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sounds extra brutal, but I agree
-
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with a lot of your points. I just think
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that, especially because grad
-
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students don't make a ton of money.
-
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It is part of the steps towards getting
-
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to kind of like, ultimately kind of
-
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where you wanna be in your career.
-
Not Synced
To kind of basically stall it out in this
-
Not Synced
one spot for things that sometimes
-
Not Synced
are not within your control. Like you
-
Not Synced
can't control if everything's gonna
-
Not Synced
work out and your paper's, gonna
-
Not Synced
get published. If it was that easy,
-
Not Synced
then maybe that's fine to make it
-
Not Synced
a requirement, but I think that it can
-
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definitely stall things and make it
-
Not Synced
take a lot longer than it's necessary.
-
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But also this was a struggle and I'm
-
Not Synced
curious if this also was the case in
-
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the UK, but you know, I also knew
-
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some people who had their kind of
-
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graduations stalled because their
-
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PI wanted to publish in a really high
-
Not Synced
impact journal and even though the
-
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student was like, we could totally
-
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get this accepted if we just knock it
-
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down, you know, by the impact factor
-
Not Synced
a little bit, they kind of had to stay
-
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around and do extra work so that
-
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they could hopefully get into these
-
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higher impact journals. And that's
-
Not Synced
another thing too that makes it tricky
-
Not Synced
is when you can't even decide exactly
-
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where it's going. Having to spend
-
Not Synced
more time. But is that, was that kind
-
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of also the case too in the UK?
-
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I think it is a case. I think the problem,
-
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the problem is because you have a
-
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committee in America, so you are
-
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getting annual meetings.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. I think some places do
-
Not Synced
every six months now, but Yeah.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. So you're getting regular
-
Not Synced
meetings with your committee.
-
Not Synced
They know how your research
-
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is going. You can go to them for
-
Not Synced
advice, especially if you are having
-
Not Synced
issues with your professor. So
-
Not Synced
whether it's where you publish,
-
Not Synced
or I know some instances where
-
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the professor, now that you are
-
Not Synced
really well-trained and you're, you
-
Not Synced
know, doing your research really
-
Not Synced
well, they don't want you to graduate.
-
Not Synced
They're now like, if I get at least
-
Not Synced
another year or two out of you
-
Not Synced
where you're basically a postdoc,
-
Not Synced
but being paid as a graduate student,
-
Not Synced
they save money, but they get
-
Not Synced
great research out of you. And so
-
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I've known graduate students who've
-
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had to leverage their committee
-
Not Synced
for their committee to say, you know,
-
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this isn't right they're ready to graduate.
-
Not Synced
You need to allow them to move forward.
-
Not Synced
And whether that's then involved
-
Not Synced
going to the administration to kind
-
Not Synced
of push that through, that's more
-
Not Synced
of an issue. Whereas in the UK you
-
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don't have a committee. You just have
-
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your professor, like if something came
-
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up, I guess you could go to your
-
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department head. But whether they
-
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have, they can really do anything
-
Not Synced
because they're not part of the training.
-
Not Synced
You, I guess you could, you could try
-
Not Synced
and go to someone on the educational
-
Not Synced
side and say, you know, this is holding
-
Not Synced
me up. Especially because once you're
-
Not Synced
out of money in the UK, like your
-
Not Synced
funding's gone because the funding is
-
Not Synced
usually for three years with the possibility
-
Not Synced
of like a fourth year extension. There
-
Not Synced
isn't a 5, 6, 7, like if you run out of money,
-
Not Synced
you are literally expected to still pay
-
Not Synced
tuition because obviously there's no
-
Not Synced
more waivers for you. They're not
-
Not Synced
paying for it. So I had a friend who
-
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had to continue paying their tuition
-
Not Synced
but they weren't getting paid by the
-
Not Synced
place, whilst they figured out what
-
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was going on with their PhD.
-
Not Synced
Wow.
-
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So the student is getting penalized
-
Not Synced
because the professor isn't allowing
-
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them to move forward. Yeah.
-
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So I love the fact that you have a
-
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committee. I think that puts the graduate
-
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student in a much stronger position,
-
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and that's one of the things that I really
-
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appreciated when I moved here and
-
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saw the strength of the committee
-
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because obviously, you know, the
-
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committee's advising you for years,
-
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so they might suggest other experiments
-
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or come up with other ideas that
-
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your professor or you haven't even
-
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considered. I think the committee is a
-
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really important part.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I think it's interesting,
-
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yeah. That you guys don't have
-
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committees and I do think they are
-
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super valuable. I think that sometimes
-
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what people maybe always don't
-
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factor in is just the politics of science
-
Not Synced
and the fact that, you know, at the end
-
Not Synced
of the day, your committee is going
-
Not Synced
to be working with your PI for hopefully
-
Not Synced
ever and sometimes that does create
-
Not Synced
strife in just that, you know, what maybe
-
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even is best for the grad student, if the
-
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PI's really against it. Is everyone, like on
-
Not Synced
your committee going to fight the PI
-
Not Synced
on it? Maybe not. But I do think it's at
-
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least nice to have people throughout
-
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the process that you get to know.
-
Not Synced
They get to know you, they get to know
-
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your project, they get to weigh in and
-
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provide insight and I think that that
-
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is incredibly valuable.
-
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Did you get to pick your committee?
-
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Because I know that depending on
-
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the PI sometimes they're like, okay,
-
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these are my buddies. These should
-
Not Synced
be on your committee or some other
-
Not Synced
people have been like, no, no, you
-
Not Synced
choose, but that creates some issues
-
Not Synced
because what happens if you don't
-
Not Synced
want the people that they've selected
-
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or not necessarily suggested maybe.
-
Not Synced
Exactly. And I, yeah, at least for me,
-
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it was kind of like a mix of both.
-
Not Synced
There were certain people where he
-
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is like, these people should be on the
-
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committee. Like they just like should
-
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be. But he's like, yeah, but you can pick
-
Not Synced
out who else you want to kind of fill it
-
Not Synced
out. I think for my committee, I think
-
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it's five members total. So also what that looks like..
-
Not Synced
And then an external or five including the external?
-
Not Synced
So at my institution, there was no
-
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external required. There was essentially
-
Not Synced
a, someone outside of your department.
-
Not Synced
There had to be one person that was
-
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not in the same department as you.
-
Not Synced
But there, they didn't have to be from
-
Not Synced
a different university. So all of mine
-
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were at the same institution. Just one
-
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of them was in biomedical engineering.
-
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So that made it different enough.
-
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And yeah, then essentially there was a
-
Not Synced
couple that were like, you should have
-
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them on your committee. Then I
-
Not Synced
selected the rest, and then they all had
-
Not Synced
some like, sort of roles, like there
-
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were, I think like three different roles
-
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I had to assign. So one of them was
-
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the chair of my committee, and
-
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they're like kind of person that just
-
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like helps organize everything. They're
-
Not Synced
the ones that I guess like also directly
-
Not Synced
communicate with me and my PI
-
Not Synced
and like figure out how things are going.
-
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And then I think there was someone
-
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who needed to be in charge of kind
-
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of like the scientific rigor of my project.
-
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I think they had to like sign off. Sign off
-
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on certain things. So yeah, they have like,
-
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I think that it totally depends on the
-
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institution you're at, the department,
-
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the school, again, like pretty much
-
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everything I've said, but that's how my.
-
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Yeah, no, I've never heard of I think I
-
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might have heard of like a chair of a
-
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committee, but never like the rigor.
-
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I kind of like that. As the person who
-
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used to teach responsible conduct
-
Not Synced
of research, I appreciate that. Yeah.
-
Not Synced
Honestly, though, like there are some
-
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very valuable parts about having kind
-
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of these different roles within a committee
-
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and then also just a committee overall.
-
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So it is, it was a good idea.
-
Not Synced
Weird question. Did you used to give
-
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your committee food and drink
-
Not Synced
whilst you were meeting?
-
Not Synced
Yeah. So for the first year or two I
-
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was in grad school this was like the
-
Not Synced
unspoken rule. It's like you bring
-
Not Synced
coffee and you bring some sort of,
-
Not Synced
you know, like snacks for any of your,
-
Not Synced
especially big like qualifying exams
-
Not Synced
and things like that, but also any
-
Not Synced
committee meetings. And then I
-
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think my second year they actually
-
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sent out an email to everybody in
-
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the college, basically the whole school,
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and was like, we are not going to
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ask grad students to do this anymore.
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Like, this is not an expectation. You're
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obviously welcome to keep doing it
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if you want, but this is not an expectation
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that we have of you. Like, please
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don't waste your money on this, basically.
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I love and appreciate that fact because
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there wasn't a written rule in my graduate
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school, but everybody knew that if you
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wanted a better committee meeting
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that you ought to provide coffee and
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pastries. And there's a famous bakery
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with numerous locations around the
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LA area called Porto's and you know,
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you would see students coming in
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with Starbucks coffee and very
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noticeable Porto's boxes. And you
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just think, and I, I was just appalled
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because I'm like, oh my gosh, these
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professors are literally doing their
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service requirement right now. It's
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part of their job requirement. And
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yet the students feel that they need
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to spend quite a lot of money on
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these things to kind of make sure their
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committee meeting goes on. And it
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was so disheartening because it's
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just like, you shouldn't have to do that.
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Like they should just be happy that
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they're helping you in your career.
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And it used to really frustrate me
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because I'm like, you know, these
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boxes of pastries are coming in and
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you know that they've spent, you know,
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maybe $50 or more and you don't
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get paid a lot as we've discussed.
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And it would, it traumatize me on
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so many different levels that, because
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I'd be like, what happened? What
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would happen if you didn't give them that?
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Like, would they literally make your life worse?
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Which would be awful if they did.
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But yeah, I honestly was really happy
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to just, especially as a newer grad
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student, you know, you're like, I wanna
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make everybody happy and like, make
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sure everybody is, you know, like, I'm
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doing what I'm supposed to be doing
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because I feel like I don't know what I'm
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doing. And so it was nice to kind of
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have some confirmation from kind
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of more administrators being like,
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you don't have to do this. And I think
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I still did. I still would buy like, at least
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like some bagels or like some good
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coffee thing. But also like, it didn't feel
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like a stretch to me. And it was something
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I was like wanting to do instead of
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feeling like this is like a rule, like we have to.
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Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the only time,
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so for my first meeting with my internal,
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obviously zero food, it was an hour.
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I didn't even consider taking in. I think.
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And then for my actual defense, it was
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after lunch. So didn't take anything in,
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but I know from other friends' experiences
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if their viva was in the morning. Because
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I know people who've had like six hour
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vivas because I go page by page right.
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So it depends on how long you go.
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I was lucky mine was only 90 minutes.
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But I know people who've literally,
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they've sent out lunch, like they're
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not finished. So they've asked the
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department to provide lunch and
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drinks for everyone and then the
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exam continues whilst everyone's,
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which I can't imagine because you
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can't really eat and answer questions.
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Yeah. So I'm sure the examiners are
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all eating and the poor person who's
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doing their viva is like trying to have the odd bite.
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Yeah small bites between their words.
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Yes. I think vivas can definitely go a
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lot longer than a defense in America.
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Yeah. Especially because most of the
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time you need your whole committee
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to attend and so to get five PIs basically
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like in the same place at the same time,
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without another commitment, you don't
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have that much time. You just don't.
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Yeah. Yeah. So I guess there's pros and
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cons of the committee. Yeah. I don't know
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how I would've felt if I had one because
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I really didn't have any issue with my PI.
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He was really awesome. In fact, he was
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the reason why I could write up so
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quickly because in my first year he had
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me writing little documents on all of
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the different proteins and things that
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I needed to, and then at the end he wa
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like, and that's your introduction.
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Yeah put that together!
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And you just need to add, you know,
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the new details as they come in.
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But realistically your introduction is
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written. And then all of my friends were
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like, how did you do that? And it's like,
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well, remember when you were laughing
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at my assignments? Well, those are my introduction.
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Yeah, exactly. That's great. Honestly.
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He was a clever guy. Okay. And then
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when you finished, because I have a
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copy of my thesis in the British Library
-
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that, so when we had to get the final
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product bound, one of them was to go
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into like my university library. One was
-
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to the British library and then, you know,
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your PI and then family members. So
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did one of your copies go somewhere fancy?
-
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Honestly, no. They had an electronic
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database essentially where everyone
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submits their thesis and if you want
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you can get it printed and like bound
-
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and put in a book and things like that
-
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but nobody's requesting that. You can
-
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also do it just for yourself if you want
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to, but other than that, it just kind of
-
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lives in this electronic database at,
-
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Did you print it out?
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Nope, we didn't print it out. I think
-
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that that was something too that
-
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was more relatively new. I think
-
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because they were also just like
-
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these giant documents that nobody's
-
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looking at or getting, like all kind
-
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of like printed out. He's looking at,
-
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See I feel like the thing too is just
-
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like, would I even go back and look
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at this thing? No. And also if I wanted
-
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to do it, especially from a scientific
-
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standpoint, I feel like it would be
-
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nice to have it in a digital format
-
Not Synced
so I could like command f my way
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through it. So I think that they were
-
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just like, the cost of it and like kind
-
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of all those components aren't something
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we're gonna like require, but
-
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you can if you want to.
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Yeah. I don't even know if I have an
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electronic copy of mine. But bearing
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in mind, I submitted in 2004, so
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21 years later I don't think so.
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Yeah, this was also 2023, so we're
-
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like also post COVID. I feel like too,
-
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COVID kind of also kind of just made
-
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things a little different. It was harder
-
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for things to even be in person.
-
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Like even my dissertation defense,
-
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I kind of like requested that there
-
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not be a Zoom option, but most of
-
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most things still had Zoom options
-
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and you know, like things were not as,
-
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I think it was definitely moving in a
-
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much more digital format, everything,
-
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even meetings and and things like that so.
-
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I wonder what happened. Because I
-
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know, I remember my professor had
-
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like a rack of dissertations behind him
-
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and he'd be like, you know, all of these
-
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are like my students. So I guess that's
-
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kind of sad if that doesn't happen
-
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anymore because I would just go and,
-
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you know, take a book and because I
-
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know when I wrote my acknowledgement
-
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section, which was the hardest section
-
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to write, I had a bunch of different,
-
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you know, versions in front of me from
-
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other people and I kinda like, oh, I like
-
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the way they said that. And like, just
-
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kind of pinch different things. But if it's
-
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digital, you can't really do that as easily.
-
Not Synced
Because how did you see digital
-
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copies from other people?
-
Not Synced
I did. So yeah, when I was writing mine
-
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just to get a sense too of like format
-
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or how people kind of did some of their
-
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sections and things, I looked through
-
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some of the digital like thesises.
-
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Okay. So that is a thing.
-
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Well, yeah, yeah. You still could, yeah.
-
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You still kind of all accessible and you
-
Not Synced
can see things and read them if you want.
-
Not Synced
But yeah, it's not as satisfying. Probably
-
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it's like holding a book that someone
-
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like really poured themself into, you know,
-
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you I feel like you lose a little of
-
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that when it's just online.
-
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Yeah, I remember handing my mum
-
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a copy and her going, okay dear,
-
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and putting it on the table. And I
-
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don't think, I think she might have
-
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looked at the acknowledgements
-
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just to make sure she's in there but
-
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I very much doubt she has got to
-
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like page one while we talk about
-
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what DNA is. So, well, I guess that, I
-
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mean, there is, there are 20 years
-
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in between your submission and mine.
-
Not Synced
Things are so different. I heard of
-
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another program kind of at the, like
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Not Synced
a different institution and they were
-
Not Synced
super specific. First of all, you
-
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to pay actually to get your thesis
-
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basically like published. And then
-
Not Synced
you had it to have incredibly impeccable
-
Not Synced
formatting if things were not, like,
-
Not Synced
the margins weren't correct and
-
Not Synced
like everything wasn't properly like
-
Not Synced
sectioned off using the correct Roman
-
Not Synced
numerals and like all these different
-
Not Synced
things, they would not accept your
-
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thesis and that could even delay people
-
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from walking for graduation. So like,
-
Not Synced
I think it's like there's so much variety
-
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in how some of these institutions kind
-
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of prioritize things and how they
-
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wanna, how they wanna do it.
-
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Sounds like my internal examiner
-
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Yeah.
-
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I'm pretty sure if I had messed
-
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anything up he would've sent me
-
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back because we did have very
-
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strict requirements. Yeah. And all
-
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of my images had to be on their
-
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own page. And then with a, like I
-
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had to have a table of figures and
-
Not Synced
a table of, yeah. It was super fun.
-
Not Synced
I feel kind of fortunate that ours
-
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was not so nitpicky but I mean,
-
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also I feel like you get some, like
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a really beautiful product at the
-
Not Synced
end of it. Ours was kind of basically
-
Not Synced
just a big giant PDF of everything altogether.
-
Not Synced
Yeah, I dunno. It is what it is. But
-
Not Synced
I think there's definitely pros and
-
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cons to the different ways of doing it
-
Not Synced
It is quite nice to be able to just whip
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it out whenever I want and be like,
-
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ta da I've written a book.
-
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Yes.
-
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Okay. So if you could do it again, and
-
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you had the option of doing it in the
-
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UK versus America, would you still choose America?
-
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This is a good question. I think what's
-
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tricky is all the things we don't talk
-
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about in this video, right? Just like family,
-
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friends, friends, cultural differences,
-
Not Synced
if there are any, you know, just like the,
-
Not Synced
the things that I feel like are. Not
-
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just the numbers and facts and figures.
-
Not Synced
That make it feel like I would probably
-
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do one in the US still. But I think what
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is really cool about going abroad and
-
Not Synced
I think a, just like getting to experience
-
Not Synced
other areas of the world, getting to also
-
Not Synced
like, I think have a shorter duration of
-
Not Synced
your PhD sounds great. Like, it sounds
-
Not Synced
like there's a lot of perks for being
-
Not Synced
able to do it in the UK. But I think I
-
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might still pick the US but probably
-
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more so for all the reasons that were
-
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not ones we talked about today.
-
Not Synced
What about you? Would you still
-
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do your PhD in the UK?
-
Not Synced
Oh, oh, see, this is the thing. I was
-
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an associate dean for years, so I
-
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kinda enjoy the American system.
-
Not Synced
I think I'd have been frustrated if I
-
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needed to repeat the classes. I
-
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mean the English students that I've
-
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seen were just pulling the hair out
-
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and I couldn't do anything about it.
-
Not Synced
So for that reason, I would probably
-
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still do the UK version. But I will
-
Not Synced
admit that because you do rotations
-
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and you usually have longer to research,
-
Not Synced
that the American or the, the people
-
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who do the American PhD usually
-
Not Synced
would have more research experience
-
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by the time they graduate, which I think
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is important. It's only because I did
-
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my year at VCU, got it right that time.
-
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That I had four years of research going
-
Not Synced
into my postdoc, because I did see
-
Not Synced
a difference between the people who'd
-
Not Synced
gone through the American system
-
Not Synced
versus the people who'd gone through
-
Not Synced
the British and some of the European
-
Not Synced
systems are longer. So I think there
-
Not Synced
is a little bit of a difference. But no,
-
Not Synced
I enjoyed mine. Luckily I didn't have
-
Not Synced
any issues. But I can see if someone
-
Not Synced
did have issues with the professor,
-
Not Synced
the American system is better in that
-
Not Synced
way. You, I feel like you are more protected.
-
Not Synced
Yeah. Yeah. And there definitely
-
Not Synced
are some extra safeguards there
-
Not Synced
that are nice, but I think that there's
-
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like a lot about the UK system that
-
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makes a lot of sense. You know, like
-
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not repeating all these courses
-
Not Synced
actually training people maybe from
-
Not Synced
the beginning for what they actually
-
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wanna do ultimately as a career.
-
Not Synced
Having be a shorter timeframe,
-
Not Synced
especially since you're making less
-
Not Synced
money. So, yeah, I think there's definitely
-
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pros and cons on both sides.
-
Not Synced
Okay. Do you think that's everything
-
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we wanna cover. I think so, right
-
Not Synced
I think so, yeah.
-
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Okay. Well thank you for joining me
-
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today, Shayla. It's been a pleasure.
-
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We're gonna do a couple of these
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videos on a variety of different things.
-
Not Synced
We haven't touched Shayla's expertise
-
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yet, so wait for the video that's
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coming on project management and
-
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we'll see you next time. Thank
-
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you for joining us. Bye bye.
-
Not Synced
Yes. Thanks for having me. Bye.