www.youtube.com/.../watch?v=V1d6US3QYcQ

Hello everyone and welcome to

a different kind of video. Today I'm

joined by Dr. Shayla Vradenburgh,

who is the founder, what would

you call it? Founder of Revolting

Science Resources. And I'm gonna

let her explain what that is. But today,

because I was trained in the UK and

Shayla was trained in the US, we are

going to talk about the differences

between the UK versus US PhD. So

Shayla, do you wanna introduce

yourself? So, yeah. My name is Dr.

Shayla Vradenburgh. I am the founder

of Revolting Science Resources,

which is a company that's designed

to bring the principles of project

management to academic scientists

and researchers. I realized while

I was finishing up my PhD and

afterwards when I kind of learned

a little more about project management,

how vital it is to the work that we

do as researchers. And so I created

a company that's all about kind of

ways that you can implement

some of those principles in the

work that you do.

And Shayla also gives presentations

at conferences and at institutions.

So, you know, please consider bringing

her in. She is great. I did see her

present at the National Postdoctoral

Association. So yeah, that's a bit

about Shayla. You all know me

because you are on my YouTube

channel. I'm Kate, I'm the founder

of EduKatedSTEM, and normally I

talk about education and professional

development. So this slots in beautifully

because at the beginning of your

career you might be considering

whether you should do a PhD. And

also maybe where you should do

one because whether you are

international, whether you're from

the UK, or the US, students come

from each country all the time. And

there are videos on YouTube already,

from various people explaining why

they chose various countries or not.

So I encourage you to look at those,

but Shayla and I will be talking about

our personal experiences and also

the information that is relevant today,

which is in May, 2025 because we

did do a little bit of researching

around this area. So how about we

talk about the application process.

Do you wanna go first, Shayla?

Yeah. So I will say it's been a few

years since I've applied. I applied

back in 2017, so it's again, been a

few years, but for that application

process, most of the time it looks

pretty similar for a lot of different

universities. And also what I'll say

is I got my PhD in neuroscience

and in a lot of institutions in the

US that can be in kind of different

places. For me, most of the places

I applied, it was part of the school

of medicine, but sometimes you

can have it be parts of different

biology departments or the college

of arts and sciences. And so, sometimes

things can vary based off of what

department or school that you're

applying to. For kind of mostly like

these biomedical science school

of medicine things, there's also

sometimes umbrella programs.

So some of the institutions I

applied to, you actually apply to

an umbrella program and then

you kind of select your specialization

afterwards. Some of them will let

you apply directly to a specialization.

So, some of those kind of nuances

are a little different. But a lot of the

time it requires some sort of cover

letter or at least like personal statement,

some sort of, you know, like basically

talking a little about the things

you've accomplished in a CV. Having

letters of recommendation and a

lot of it is really predicated on how

much research experience you have.

They really wanna see some tangible

ways that you've actually gained

some experience that's relevant to

the work that you're hoping to do.

And then there normally is an

application fee. I know when I was

applying, I actually went to a national

conference called SACNAS, and

while I was there, I actually was

able to get a lot of waivers for

different institutions that I didn't

actually have to pay that application

fee. But that can be another thing

that kind of adds up if you're applying

to a lot of different institutions.

And yeah, I think those were like

most of the components for kind

of applying. I think it honestly was

a little similar when you're thinking

about like applying for undergrad

versus applying for grad school.

I also know too, like sometimes

the GRE, or like the GMAT, was

a test you would take. I took

the GRE, it was required when

I applied, but I think about two

years into my grad program,

they actually got rid of that

requirement at my institution

and at a good number of

institutions. So something

though to keep in mind to

definitely think about is whether

or not that test might be

something you need to include.

I will say that having sat on

an admissions committee,

how you do on the GRE or

the GMAT does not indicate

how well you do in graduate

school which is one of the

reasons why we discussed

dropping it. Because you

couldn't tell it really didn't

indicate your success or not.

Okay, so the British system is

different. You apply to a specific

research project with a particular

professor. So completely different.

You have to find the listings,

you find the research that you're

interested in, and then you

apply specifically to work for

that individual. So, you know,

we don't normally have rotations

like you do in America because

you're specifically going for that

particular project and professor.

Which is good and bad, because

what happens if you don't like

the professor? You're kind of

stuck. That's it. But that also

means that you know what

your project is as soon as you

come in, there's no surprise.

You literally applied for it.

And at least when I applied,

which was a very long time ago,

over 20 years ago, there was

no application fee. You just

sent your materials off. So

CV and a cover letter, maybe

a personal statement. And

definitely your transcripts

and letters of recommendation,

you just sent those off. I can't

remember how many I actually

applied for because there was

no financial component. So I

could have applied for every

single one I looked at. And then

I definitely had a number of

interviews which were all quite

different. So Shayla, do you wanna

talk about your experience for interviews?

Yeah. So I had a couple of interviews

that I had scheduled. They look

pretty much the same though,

where essentially you kind of start

by meeting maybe some people

for an informal sort of like dinner.

You meet some of the grad students

or even the faculty that are part

of the program. Then the next day

it was normally kind of like a full day.

You would do interviews with

different faculty members.

A lot of the time they'd give

you the option of people

you could select or you can

request specific faculty members

to meet with. And then they

kind of have different grad

students or people kind of walk

you between all these different

faculty interviews. And then

there normally was some sort

of a panel interview as well, so

you would meet with, most of

the time, it was mostly faculty

with a couple of graduate student

representatives. And then essentially

you do a panel interview as well

and kind of just answer lots of questions

about your research, talk about

their research. And I think what's

also so valuable about this interview

process is that it's not only an

opportunity for, you know, these

institutions to get to know you

and why you might be a good

fit, but you can also take that

opportunity to get to know them

and see how kind of the grad

students seem to be in this kind

of environment or how they seem

to support them, and how you

might fit in in that space as well.

That's a great point. You are

interviewing them at the same

time because it's a huge commitment

and if you choose the wrong

school or the wrong program,

then you might not enjoy the

experience. You might decide

to leave the program, which

would be terribly sad. So for my

interviews, I had to give a scientific

presentation at some of them

which was incredibly intimidating.

I did that for Oxford. And then

there's multiple interviews with

different professors. Even if you're

not wanting to work for them,

you still get interviewed by

multiple people. And I definitely

had a panel interview for the

PhD program I ended up going to.

I had a panel and it was actually

really interesting because there

were four professors for four

different proposals. And the

professor that I interviewed

for I actually am very glad

he didn't choose me and I

didn't get the project. But

someone else didn't like

any of his candidates, but

he liked me. But because

we'd all interviewed together,

he offered me a position,

so yay for the panel!

Yes. And also, I guess I'm curious,

for the presentation you had

to give, was that like a slideshow?

I know sometimes you do like

kind of chalkboard.

No. Full PowerPoint presentation.

Like an hour long?

God no, it wasn't an hour, maybe

10, 15 minutes. Okay. And luckily

it was because I had previously

done research in America, so

I presented on that research. But

yes, everyone who was being

considered for that particular

program, we all had to give

PowerPoint presentations.

So I assume all of us had

previous research experience,

otherwise, what would you have presented on?

Yeah, I was wondering that too.

I was like, hopefully you have.

Yeah. Similar to to what you said

about people in like if you've done

previous research experience,

so in America, having those summer

internships are really important if

you want to move ahead into a PhD program.

Yeah, for sure. I did a summer research

program at the University of New Mexico,

and I think that was one of the most

kind of transformative things I could

have done I think for my career. I

think a) it was just a really hands-on

time. I got to spend literally a whole

summer just focusing on research,

working in a different place, working

with different lab members.

Figuring out different techniques.

And then I got to present that work

ultimately too at places like SACNAS

which also kind of helped just broaden

my range of contacts and different

people within kind of different areas

of the world. So, yeah, I would highly

recommend for anybody who,

especially as an undergrad and is

thinking about research, like take a

summer, there's so many of these

different programs and a lot of times

they pay you stipends to participate.

So yeah, I think it's an incredible experience. Yeah.

Yeah. So I did a sandwich undergraduate,

which meant that for my third year,

my junior year, I had to leave and go

and have a proper research job so I

could have gone and worked in a

pharmaceutical company. But I was

selected to come to the University

of Virginia to do a year of cancer research,

which is how I started off my cancer

research kind of career because I

realized, oh, I can do that.

Yeah, that's,

and then because that was on

my CV, and at the time it was

more unusual in the UK. Because

sandwich degrees I don't know

how popular they are now, but

back then they weren't terribly

popular. I mean, I got interviewed

at the majority of the places that I applied for.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like an incredible opportunity.

It was good. Thank you UVA.

Okay. So I think one of the key

things about the differences is the

duration, because a British PhD

is much shorter. Right. So most

people finish between three to

four years. I actually submitted

my PhD thesis or dissertation in

under three years, which is unusual,

but we get them through quicker.

And we can talk about the reason

for that in a moment, but Shayla,

what's the, how long does an American one last?

Yeah, it can typically range

somewhere between five to seven

years. I've seen people extend

beyond that. I think most of the time

when you would ask an institution

what their average is, they'll

probably say like five and a half to six.

But yeah, that could definitely be

a range. And I think especially after

COVID, I think those numbers increased

a little bit. But yeah, it's definitely a bit longer.

Yeah. I've known a couple of

students who've taken nine, so

as have I,

If your professor is willing to keep

paying you, you just kind of hang

around which is also not necessarily

a good thing because you wanna

get out and do a postdoc and move

on to the next step of your career.

Yeah. I think that's something too

people don't talk a lot about is,

you know, you generally don't make

a lot with these PhD stipends.

Really its oodles of money Shayla!

I mean, you're right. What am I talking about?

But, you know, I think for, if you

think about how long this is, like

five to seven years, that's a long

time to be making not the most

amount of money. And then especially

if the next step is a postdoc, which

they are generally underpaid as well.

You know, you're going to, it's gonna

take a lot longer before you're actually

making a salary that kind of helps

support your life and especially

the kind of experience that you have.

Let's talk money. So back 20 years

ago, I got paid 12,000 pounds per

year to do my PhD which at the

time was a very well funded PhD

and unusually. Tell me how you

got paid Shayla. I got paid every three months.

Interesting.

So I had to budget really well for

those three months.

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

And for me, so my PhD was not

terribly long ago. We actually saw,

I think, two increases during the

time I was doing my PhD, but I

started at 30,500 and that honestly

isn't like, I think that is a generally

well-funded PhD. I think Charlottesville

is a little bit of a pricier area, but

honestly I didn't have a problem

living with that stipend. We saw a

couple of increases, so I think by

the time I finished, I think it ended

up around 33,500, somewhere

around there. I think you asked me

another question though, and I forgot it.

No, I just realized, did I just say I

did my research at UVA? I did it at VCU.

Oh, yeah. Oh, so you did it at VCU?

Wait, I just said the wrong university.

I was like, I didn't know that you went to UVA.

No, no. I've been to, I've visited UVA.

No, I was in Richmond.

Okay, that's close. It's really,

I was like, it had Virginia in the title,

but that is so wrong. Amnesia.

I was like, I feel like Why, why did

we not talk about this before?

No, no. I went, it was a VCU. I was

at the Massey Cancer Center for

the Virginia Commonwealth University.

I'm going crazy at the grand old

age of 45. When you said you, I

was like, wait, I didn't go to Charlottesville.

I am going nuts. I'm sorry, Shayla.

Oh, that's fine.

Okay, so, so that's how much you

got paid. So how much were you

making at the end? Because you

started at 30.

Yeah, I think it ended up around,

I feel like it was 33, but there's a

chance it was 35. One of those two numbers.

Okay. So it went up a decent

amount though, in a couple of years.

Yeah. Ultimately it took me six year

to complete my PhD. So over the

course of six years that's how much we went up.

Okay. So a stipend currently in the UK,

and this is for 2025 to 2026, you

would probably make just under 21,000

pounds. And importantly that stipend

isn't taxed, so you get all of the money.

Yeah. Yes. And how much, how much is

an American one? I actually don't

know what the current numbers are.

That's a good question.

I put it in there.

There we go. It's like 20 to 50.

20 to 50 K. Yeah. I was like,

I don't know. I, I think too, it's so

varying depending on where you

live as well. Like I know that some,

you know, places, especially in

pricier areas like California or

New York, they might be able to

give you a better stipend because

your cost of living is gonna be

significantly more than someone

may be in Texas or Tennessee

So it is like probably a very wide range.

I think that that also is to do with

humanities versus STEM because

I wasn't necessarily looking just

for STEM. Yeah. So I think that

might've incorporated some

humanities and they are

unfortunately paid a lot less

than STEM degrees, I don't know why.

And Yeah. And being part of the

School of Medicine, I think we

some of the best paid grad students

on the campus.

Wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. But yeah,

so, but ours is also taxed, so most

of the time I think it sometimes can

be a little confusing and maybe

even frustrating about how the

stipend works in America because

you generally don't get something

like a W2 that you can easily submit

to pay your taxes. Nothing's withheld.

So you need to withhold yourself

and make sure that you're paying

it properly. So it can be a little bit

more to figure out and not as easy

or convenient, but you do have to pay taxes on it.

Did your graduate school have

like a presentation once a year

to help you do your taxes? Because

I know some schools do that.

No, and that would've been great.

I know some do, and I know, I

think even mine has started to do

things, but when we were starting,

they literally had kind of like meetings

that were basically like, we will

not help you with your taxes. This is

your responsibility. You guys figure it out.

The don't want to get sued!

Like, I don't know what the ultimate goal

of that was, but I'm glad they're

starting to incorporate work.

Yeah. No, we, we definitely did

it until we got told that, you know,

we could get sued if they got given

the wrong information. So we did it for

a while and then it stopped at the

graduate school I was an associate

dean for. Okay. So another big

thing is the fees that you pay. So

in the UK if you're a domestic student,

you are gonna pay just short of 5,000

pounds, and that's per year. If you're

an international student, you are

going to pay significantly more,

anywhere between 20 and 35,000

pounds. And then in addition to that,

we have something called a bench

fee or a research support fee, so

that basically helps to pay for all

of the things that you use in the lab.

Which could be anywhere between

1000 to 10,000 pounds and that's

per year. And then obviously if you

get a scholarship or some kind of

thing through your program, they

might pay for a portion or all of that.

So luckily for me, I had to pay

zero which is awesome. But some

people do have to pay. So what

are the fees in America?

Yeah, so we also have tuition

and I think there generally tends

to be things like in-state versus

out of state. And then obviously

if you're an international student.

What I will say is at least in the

school of medicine, and when I

was in grad school, we got our

tuition waived. So no one paid

for tuition. We also got free health

insurance and yeah, so it, it ended

up being something that wasn't

really a cost that came out of the

stipend that we received. Generally

though, how it would work is there's

like a period in which the actual,

like the school of medicine paid

for your stipend until you joined a

lab, and then your PI would likely

have to take over those tuition

costs essentially from, yeah, the school.

So even though you aren't gonna

have to get it taken out of your,

you know, like actual stipend,

somebody is likely paying for it

in some way, or there might be

waivers that exist for portions

or all of your kind of schooling

or training there. But yeah, I think

it totally just kind of depends

on the program. And again, like

the school of medicine got a

lot of perks that other kind of

departments and schools did

not get so I think in terms of

fees and things like that, if you

are at universities that aren't

going to offer tuition waivers

or are gonna require you to pay

for some of that, it could range

anywhere from, you know, like six

to $11,000 for instate up to 25

plus for out of state or international

students. So could be a big range.

Yeah. And I think that it is important

to note that if you're out of state,

that's the same fee you pay as an

international student. Yes.

Which to me is incredible because,

you know, if you go from, I don't know,

Texas to California, it almost feels

like you should be paying less than

someone who's coming from an

international country. So that's a

bargain frankly. If you are going out

of state, um, it's a little crazy. And

then there is a difference between

a public institution and a private

institution. So did you wanna say

what the difference between those are?

In terms of the cost?

Uh, well, the cost, but also like what

is the difference? Like if someone

doesn't know the difference between

a public institution and a private,

so what is the difference between them?

Yeah. Most of the time that's generally

kind of how they're funded. So a

lot of public institutions are gonna

be funded by state or even federal

funds. Whereas private institutions

are generally not, they might still

receive them in some capacity, but

they generally don't have to follow

some of the specific kind of guidelines

or rules. They get a little bit more

freedom sometimes in the ways

that they're able to operate and

they generally aren't receiving those

state or federal funds. But yeah,

in terms of the cost, that generally

makes those private institutions a

lot more expensive. And so the public

institutions tend to be a bit more

affordable, especially when you're

thinking about the tuition costs.

And the way that I think of a public

institution is it's usually like the

state schools. So like the University

of California would be a public

institution or the University of Maryland

or Virginia, or actually is UVA is that public?

Yes, but the one that always trips

me up is the University of Pennsylvania.

That one is a private institution.

Oh, it is? I'm pretty sure someone

can come for me, but I'm pretty sure.

So I know that if you're interested

if you've heard of the Ivy League,

that's only for a small portion of the

country and it's only a few universities,

but there's now lists for different categories.

So there's now something called

the Public Ivy League table, which

comprises of universities across

the whole of the country which is

awesome. So if you want to go

somewhere, which you're still gonna

get a great education, but it's

not gonna cost the world look up

the public list of Ivy Leagues and

just to give you a hint, my favorite,

the UC's are all in there. So University

of California, totally representing.

Yeah. I think too, both of the schools

I attended, the University of Virginia

and the University of Florida think

have made the public Ivy list. But

yeah, so it's, yeah, you can still

a great education and it not cost

the world, which I think is something

that people sometimes forget. Yeah. Yeah.

Sounds, just because prestige doesn't

mean that it's necessarily going to

give you an amazing it. Remember, it

also depends on your professor and

the people in the lab who are training you.

Yeah. Definitely, and I think, I honestly

didn't even know that you could get

paid at one point for going to a,

especially like a PhD program, especially

a lot of the ones in the United States,

they tend to at least give you some

sort of a stipend and a lot of the times they'll

waive your tuition so you don't even

have to pay those fees. But you're

able to get a good education. You're

maybe not making a ton of money,

but you are getting that degree from

a great institution for not quite as much.

Possibly getting more than the Brits.

I guess we need to do the, the pound

versus dollar conversion. Yeah.

That would've been clever for me to

do that, but I did not look into that.

I guess it depends on the day,

so I guess it doesn't matter.

True.

Okay, so we, should we talk about

funding? Because at home in the

UK we have a number of different

ways that you can get funded.

A lot of them are different research

councils, depending on your research

focus. So a couple of them would

be the Biotechnology and Bioscience

Research Council, or the BBSRC.

You also have the Engineering and

Physical Sciences Research Council,

or the EPSRC, and then you can get

private funding from like Cancer Research

UK or someone else. So it depends.

You might be able to apply for your

own funding, but usually if your professor

has put a position out there, they've

got the funding for three years.

Yeah. So funding is a little different

for a lot of the institutions in the US.

So part of it is that your PI might

have funding, you know, for a project

you're working on initially, they might

not, but they could still take you.

And then on top of that, like you

can obviously apply for your own

funding. They can apply for other

funding for different projects that

you work on. The largest funder,

especially for biomedical research

in the US is the National Institutes

of Health at the NIH. So most people

have some sort of a grant from the

NIH, at especially R1 or kind of like

really high level research institutes

in the US. Other options are places

like the National Science Foundation

or NSF, that funds a ton of people

as well. There's also private funding

and then also there tends to be a

lot of internal ways that you can

make, you know, basically get scholarships

from your institution. So there's

normally grants or foundations they

also have to do like training grants

as well, especially kind of for those

first couple years of your PhD that

you're able to apply for and get

some funding for as well.

I will say scholarships are, are

kind of fun, at our graduate school

we had a few competitions depending

on what year you were in. And so

first years could win and that was

due to their academic performance

in courses. And then for later years

it might be on a research proposal

that they've put in and it was looked

at similar to like a mini grant proposal

where it got reviewed by a team and

then the winners won the scholarship.

So look out for those if you are gonna

go to school because having those

on your CV will definitely help you

in the future because they are

quite prestigious to win.

Yeah, definitely. And also at our

institution, if you ever did get

some of those bigger grants,

especially from the NSF or the NIH,

they actually would give you an

extra bump in your stipend. So

you've got like a little extra bonus

for getting awards like the F31.

So yeah, those are other ways that

you can even just make a little extra.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So should we talk

about the structure? Yeah, because

they are quite different.

Yes. And I wonder too, I'm curious if

this also plays into maybe some

of the difference in the timeframes.

Oh, it has. It absolutely has to.

Yes. But yeah, so at least in kind

of the biomedical sciences in

particular, but most of the PhD

programs, again you're thinking

about this in roughly the average

of five and a half to six years. And

normally those first two years are

gonna be really heavy on a lot of

different courses and other things

that you need to take as requirements.

For our institution, the way they

did it was actually like you came

in as like kind of a group and a

cohort from all different, again,

kind of disciplines underneath

some sort of umbrella of biomedical

sciences. We had to take a course

altogether that was called the core

course. It was kind of just like ultimately

like kind of the main things you

need to know, but kind of what that

looks like can vary so much between

different institutions. Like literally

between every different program

there can be different requirements

on what the courses look like. And

then we have lots of the required

courses like ethics or kind of also

just like stats, data courses. But

pretty much by the end of your

second year, those were all done.

There were very few courses you

needed to take beyond that.

And then you primarily focused

on doing research and then that

also kind of broke things up as

well in terms of like exams and

ways that you kind of progressed

through the program. So it's like

the first two years are kind of course

heavy. Then roughly around your

second year you need to do a

qualifying exam, and that's when

you move from a PhD student to

a PhD candidate. If you pass, those

look also very different. So maybe

that's something we can talk about

too, is what all these kind of candidacy

exams look like. But then you roughly

do research for kind of the remainder

of those four-ish years, and then that

ultimately ends with you defending

your dissertation.

Okay, so the English system or the

British system is quite different.

So the way I look at it is because

we specialize earlier. So I did an

applied biochemistry and molecular

biology undergraduate degree. So

from the age of 18, that's all I did.

So I covered biology, chemistry,

maths, statistics. I didn't do any

other language. I didn't do any

humanities. It was pure science.

And so we don't do any classes,

we don't do any courses, presumably

because we've covered more of it

in our undergrad. And I can tell you

that having had British students in

the graduate school that I worked in,

when they did their courses, they

just felt that they were relearning

the same information. They weren't

stretched in any way. They, you know,

felt that it was utter nonsense.

But they were forced to basically do

it again which they were very

disappointed in. So we go straight

in because you know what your project

is, there's no rotations. You go in

on day one, you start doing your

literature review, learning your topic,

and then get trained by the people

in the lab on various techniques

and other things. I had a meeting

with someone from my university.

It was actually in between my

second and third year, but they'd

essentially forgotten me. It's supposed

to be done between the first

and second year but because I

did my PhD and I wasn't on the

university campus, I was at the

medical research laboratory, so I was

at a completely different place

about 30 miles away. So eventually

when all of my friends who were

the year below me were doing this,

I was like, wait, am I supposed to

do that? And so I contacted them

and they were like, oh, yeah, you are,

you know, so write a short paper.

It was like, I don't know, 10, 15 pages

on my research. And then I had to

go in and meet with an internal professor,

and we just had a conversation

for like an hour on my research. And

he asked me lots of questions and

it was actually really helpful because

he ended up being my examiner. And

because of that conversation, I

knew that he wasn't gonna ask me

questions on the proteins that I was

researching. He was gonna ask me

the questions on the proteins that

he was researching, which were

somewhat in the same pathway,

but I wasn't researching his proteins.

So that definitely helped. And

then at three years, I handed in

my dissertation and then a few

months later, it takes a little longer

in the UK to have your exam and

we call it, this is gonna sound really

funny, we always called it a viva.

But when I Googled it, because I have

heard it called a viva, and like we used

to laugh at people going, viva, that's

wrong. It's a viva. But according to

Google, the technical term is a viva

voce, which is Latin for oral exam.

That makes sense.

So viva, viva. I'm gonna say viva

because that's what we always

used to say, but maybe my Latin,

which is non-existent is wrong.

It's understandable that maybe

it's not quite polished.

Not really. But no, it was definitely

a moment. But I'm very thankful

for that mini exam because without

it, I wouldn't have known how to

handle my proper one because I

literally spent weeks before my

exam researching his proteins,

which had nothing to do with mine.

Yeah, that's so interesting.

So, yeah. So should we talk about

what the defense looks like?

Yeah, so I guess too, I can like

back up and talk a little about our

qualifying exam. So that generally

for most programs, essentially

looked like creating specific things

like specific aims page, and that's

what you would send out to a committee

that you assemble. And then

basically they'd read that and

then you do a presentation

where you walk through what

you're planning to do for your

dissertation project. I was in a

program that decided to kind of

change things up and do something

different. So also, again, like things

are so dependent on different

departments and schools. I actually

did, like, after my second year, we

wrote a review paper and then that

is actually what we did a presentation

on, essentially kind of the background

of whatever our research project was.

Then following our third year, we essentially

had to do the specific aims page and talk

about our actual research project,

which people have mixed opinions about.

And then again, that kind of at the

end was that dissertation defense,

the way also dissertations are written

can vary so much between different

disciplines, schools, universities,

and the requirements that they have.

UVA was very relaxed with their

requirements for the dissertation.

It was essentially, you write kind of

an introduction, you write conclusion,

but you kind of staple all of your

papers and all the work that you've

done kind of in between. And I

don't know if anybody actually

read my whole dissertation. So

there was that. I don't think anybody

did. I, you essentially give it out to

your committee, a bit before you

actually defend. But I don't think

a single person read the whole thing.

How long was it? Because I'm

used to people waiting like a few weeks.

Yeah. So when they found out that

I waited, like I think mine was. I

handed mine in in September

and I didn't defend until towards

the middle to the end of November.

So that was definitely two months.

Yeah. I think generally it's recommended

Yeah. To give like a couple weeks to

a month beforehand to let like your

committee look at it. But honestly,

I, again, like I don't, I don't know how

many of them actually take any of

that time to read through it. So, the

actual defense though, is generally

split up between a private and a

public defense. And that also can

look really different depending on

the institution that you're at. The way

our university, like my department also,

not even just everyone at UVA, but

my department did it by first you do

a private defense, and so it's just your

committee. You do a presentation

talking about everything that's basically

in your dissertation. They grill you,

ask you a bunch of questions, but then

if they approve and they think that

it kind of meets the standards, then

you pass. And then you pretty much

set like the last requirement is to do

a public defense, but if you've passed

your private, you are guaranteed pretty

much to pass at that point. And so

then you do a public defense. That's when

you can invite other people, friends,

family, and then do a public defense.

Basically the same presentation that

you gave to your committee, you do

again in public. Some kind of departments

do them together. So it's like you'll first

do this public defense where everybody

comes, you do that presentation and

then you have the private defense

but right after that and then your

whole committee just grills you on

what you presented. But generally it

looks like one of those two things.

And I've heard that for most places,

they generally don't even let you get

to the point of like scheduling that

defense if they don't think that you're

ready to pass it. So most people end

up passing their dissertation defenses.

Yeah. Do you, have you known anyone

who got sent back and had to continue

working or not?

Not for the dissertation defense. I

have for the qualifying exam but not

for the dissertation defense, no

Okay. So yeah, ours is definitely

different. So I actually, I think

it's because I was based at two

different places. because I got

my degree from a university, but

was based at the medical research

council. So I gave a lecture or a

presentation at the MRC. And then

I went to my university and gave a

seminar there which was completely

separate. So two completely different

days. And then that was before the

end of September. And then I had my

defense in November. And my defense

was just with two people. So I had one

external examiner who was an expert

in my field, and then I had the same

internal examiner who I'd already met

with and therefore, you know, prepared for.

And normally we always got told

that the external examiner is gonna

be the worst one because they are

the expert in your field. Mine wasn't,

it was my internal, and that's purely

because he just kept asking me

questions related to his research,

which was great. Thankfully I had

already prepared for that but still

it was a struggle. And, then you

can have a few different things can

come out of that you can pass

with no corrections whatsoever,

which is incredibly rare. You can

pass with some corrections, or I

have known people to either fail

outright or be sent back to either

do more research or to rewrite

parts or all of their thesis. So

I have known that to happen. And

so I had to do some changes, and

it was just nitpicky. And it was so

funny because when you said that

people didn't read your thesis, both

of mine had read the entire thing.

They had tabs on the various pages,

and my exam was basically going

through page by page and then them

asking me the relevant questions that

they'd come up with on that page,

I answered them and then we kept going.

So they definitely, very different.

They'll definitely read it because there

were notes and like sometimes they'd

be like, we just don't like the way you

wrote this. But then there'd be a note.

And so I got basically a list of the things

that they wanted corrected, and it

was so nitpicky. It was because my

thesis was on DNA repair. So obviously

one of the first publications that I

referenced was Watson and Crick right.

Except I'd only put in like one initial

and they wanted all four. It was, it was

great. It was great. And so I had to

change them and then I had to email

per chapter, to my internal examiner

surprise, my internal, so he could check

that I had corrected it and then I was

allowed to print it out for the final copy

and he checked every single one.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it totally, it's so

variable and I think too, part of it is

like the PI that I worked with that was

not something that they personally

thought was as valuable to like comb

through. Like they cared much more

about doing that with publications

than your dissertation. And especially

since the way that ours worked was

essentially you putting all of your

publications just kind of like in the

middle of your dissertation.

A lot of that they probably already

looked through with the fine tooth comb.

But yeah, no, I think that's, that's

kind of interesting just how wide a

variety there can be in terms of the

scrutiny. Yeah. 'cause my publications

were at the end. So they were like,

we had to read them to get to the

publications. And then how about

were publications required? Because

they weren't required and I don't think

there's, they're required in the UK

because obviously you may or may not

be lucky enough to get a publication

if you're depending on how

your research pans out.

Yeah. And at my particular program,

it was required that you had a first

author publication to defend.

You had to have at least one, you

had to be the first author and it had

to be published. And I think that is

one of the reasons too, for that

extended timeline, because like you

said, like so often research fails, you

do not have positive data that most

publications like journals are going

to wanna publish. And so it can take

a lot more time to just actually create

some sort of a story that's going to

eventually get published. But yeah,

it was a requirement. But to be fair,

again, like it's so variable because like

even within kind of the different

departments that kind of made up

overall, like all the biomedical sciences

at UVA, like one did not have the

requirement, mine did. And so again,

it's just kind of like all over the place

in terms of what the requirements are.

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a bit harsh

because especially nowadays, it can

take such a long time for your paper

to get reviewed by a journal. And then

they might want changes or they might

just, you know, reject it and then

you've gotta do that process again.

Like if you needed that to graduate,

you could be spending so many more

years just waiting for that paper to

get approved and to go through.

I know people who have waited

years to basically to get a paper

That just doesn't seem right to me

because you're still making $30,000.

You're not getting, you don't

paid postdoc salary because you're

practically done. Is it? What ABD,

all but dissertation is what everyone

says. So you're like waiting and you

are like, this paper is hopefully going

to be coming through. That just seems

really unnecessary to me because

you've done the work. I mean, I can

kind of see both ways and I know

that at one time I should have looked

into it. I wanna say if you graduate

with a PhD from a Scandinavian

country, you have to have multiple

first author papers. It's not just one.

Yeah, I, I had not heard that. That

sounds extra brutal, but I agree

with a lot of your points. I just think

that, especially because grad

students don't make a ton of money.

It is part of the steps towards getting

to kind of like, ultimately kind of

where you wanna be in your career.

To kind of basically stall it out in this

one spot for things that sometimes

are not within your control. Like you

can't control if everything's gonna

work out and your paper's, gonna

get published. If it was that easy,

then maybe that's fine to make it

a requirement, but I think that it can

definitely stall things and make it

take a lot longer than it's necessary.

But also this was a struggle and I'm

curious if this also was the case in

the UK, but you know, I also knew

some people who had their kind of

graduations stalled because their

PI wanted to publish in a really high

impact journal and even though the

student was like, we could totally

get this accepted if we just knock it

down, you know, by the impact factor

a little bit, they kind of had to stay

around and do extra work so that

they could hopefully get into these

higher impact journals. And that's

another thing too that makes it tricky

is when you can't even decide exactly

where it's going. Having to spend

more time. But is that, was that kind

of also the case too in the UK?

I think it is a case. I think the problem,

the problem is because you have a

committee in America, so you are

getting annual meetings.

Yeah. I think some places do

every six months now, but Yeah.

Yeah. So you're getting regular

meetings with your committee.

They know how your research

is going. You can go to them for

advice, especially if you are having

issues with your professor. So

whether it's where you publish,

or I know some instances where

the professor, now that you are

really well-trained and you're, you

know, doing your research really

well, they don't want you to graduate.

They're now like, if I get at least

another year or two out of you

where you're basically a postdoc,

but being paid as a graduate student,

they save money, but they get

great research out of you. And so

I've known graduate students who've

had to leverage their committee

for their committee to say, you know,

this isn't right they're ready to graduate.

You need to allow them to move forward.

And whether that's then involved

going to the administration to kind

of push that through, that's more

of an issue. Whereas in the UK you

don't have a committee. You just have

your professor, like if something came

up, I guess you could go to your

department head. But whether they

have, they can really do anything

because they're not part of the training.

You, I guess you could, you could try

and go to someone on the educational

side and say, you know, this is holding

me up. Especially because once you're

out of money in the UK, like your

funding's gone because the funding is

usually for three years with the possibility

of like a fourth year extension. There

isn't a 5, 6, 7, like if you run out of money,

you are literally expected to still pay

tuition because obviously there's no

more waivers for you. They're not

paying for it. So I had a friend who

had to continue paying their tuition

but they weren't getting paid by the

place, whilst they figured out what

was going on with their PhD.

Wow.

So the student is getting penalized

because the professor isn't allowing

them to move forward. Yeah.

So I love the fact that you have a

committee. I think that puts the graduate

student in a much stronger position,

and that's one of the things that I really

appreciated when I moved here and

saw the strength of the committee

because obviously, you know, the

committee's advising you for years,

so they might suggest other experiments

or come up with other ideas that

your professor or you haven't even

considered. I think the committee is a

really important part.

Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I think it's interesting,

yeah. That you guys don't have

committees and I do think they are

super valuable. I think that sometimes

what people maybe always don't

factor in is just the politics of science

and the fact that, you know, at the end

of the day, your committee is going

to be working with your PI for hopefully

ever and sometimes that does create

strife in just that, you know, what maybe

even is best for the grad student, if the

PI's really against it. Is everyone, like on

your committee going to fight the PI

on it? Maybe not. But I do think it's at

least nice to have people throughout

the process that you get to know.

They get to know you, they get to know

your project, they get to weigh in and

provide insight and I think that that

is incredibly valuable.

Did you get to pick your committee?

Because I know that depending on

the PI sometimes they're like, okay,

these are my buddies. These should

be on your committee or some other

people have been like, no, no, you

choose, but that creates some issues

because what happens if you don't

want the people that they've selected

or not necessarily suggested maybe.

Exactly. And I, yeah, at least for me,

it was kind of like a mix of both.

There were certain people where he

is like, these people should be on the

committee. Like they just like should

be. But he's like, yeah, but you can pick

out who else you want to kind of fill it

out. I think for my committee, I think

it's five members total. So also what that looks like..

And then an external or five including the external?

So at my institution, there was no

external required. There was essentially

a, someone outside of your department.

There had to be one person that was

not in the same department as you.

But there, they didn't have to be from

a different university. So all of mine

were at the same institution. Just one

of them was in biomedical engineering.

So that made it different enough.

And yeah, then essentially there was a

couple that were like, you should have

them on your committee. Then I

selected the rest, and then they all had

some like, sort of roles, like there

were, I think like three different roles

I had to assign. So one of them was

the chair of my committee, and

they're like kind of person that just

like helps organize everything. They're

the ones that I guess like also directly

communicate with me and my PI

and like figure out how things are going.

And then I think there was someone

who needed to be in charge of kind

of like the scientific rigor of my project.

I think they had to like sign off. Sign off

on certain things. So yeah, they have like,

I think that it totally depends on the

institution you're at, the department,

the school, again, like pretty much

everything I've said, but that's how my.

Yeah, no, I've never heard of I think I

might have heard of like a chair of a

committee, but never like the rigor.

I kind of like that. As the person who

used to teach responsible conduct

of research, I appreciate that. Yeah.

Honestly, though, like there are some

very valuable parts about having kind

of these different roles within a committee

and then also just a committee overall.

So it is, it was a good idea.

Weird question. Did you used to give

your committee food and drink

whilst you were meeting?

Yeah. So for the first year or two I

was in grad school this was like the

unspoken rule. It's like you bring

coffee and you bring some sort of,

you know, like snacks for any of your,

especially big like qualifying exams

and things like that, but also any

committee meetings. And then I

think my second year they actually

sent out an email to everybody in

the college, basically the whole school,

and was like, we are not going to

ask grad students to do this anymore.

Like, this is not an expectation. You're

obviously welcome to keep doing it

if you want, but this is not an expectation

that we have of you. Like, please

don't waste your money on this, basically.

I love and appreciate that fact because

there wasn't a written rule in my graduate

school, but everybody knew that if you

wanted a better committee meeting

that you ought to provide coffee and

pastries. And there's a famous bakery

with numerous locations around the

LA area called Porto's and you know,

you would see students coming in

with Starbucks coffee and very

noticeable Porto's boxes. And you

just think, and I, I was just appalled

because I'm like, oh my gosh, these

professors are literally doing their

service requirement right now. It's

part of their job requirement. And

yet the students feel that they need

to spend quite a lot of money on

these things to kind of make sure their

committee meeting goes on. And it

was so disheartening because it's

just like, you shouldn't have to do that.

Like they should just be happy that

they're helping you in your career.

And it used to really frustrate me

because I'm like, you know, these

boxes of pastries are coming in and

you know that they've spent, you know,

maybe $50 or more and you don't

get paid a lot as we've discussed.

And it would, it traumatize me on

so many different levels that, because

I'd be like, what happened? What

would happen if you didn't give them that?

Like, would they literally make your life worse?

Which would be awful if they did.

But yeah, I honestly was really happy

to just, especially as a newer grad

student, you know, you're like, I wanna

make everybody happy and like, make

sure everybody is, you know, like, I'm

doing what I'm supposed to be doing

because I feel like I don't know what I'm

doing. And so it was nice to kind of

have some confirmation from kind

of more administrators being like,

you don't have to do this. And I think

I still did. I still would buy like, at least

like some bagels or like some good

coffee thing. But also like, it didn't feel

like a stretch to me. And it was something

I was like wanting to do instead of

feeling like this is like a rule, like we have to.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the only time,

so for my first meeting with my internal,

obviously zero food, it was an hour.

I didn't even consider taking in. I think.

And then for my actual defense, it was

after lunch. So didn't take anything in,

but I know from other friends' experiences

if their viva was in the morning. Because

I know people who've had like six hour

vivas because I go page by page right.

So it depends on how long you go.

I was lucky mine was only 90 minutes.

But I know people who've literally,

they've sent out lunch, like they're

not finished. So they've asked the

department to provide lunch and

drinks for everyone and then the

exam continues whilst everyone's,

which I can't imagine because you

can't really eat and answer questions.

Yeah. So I'm sure the examiners are

all eating and the poor person who's

doing their viva is like trying to have the odd bite.

Yeah small bites between their words.

Yes. I think vivas can definitely go a

lot longer than a defense in America.

Yeah. Especially because most of the

time you need your whole committee

to attend and so to get five PIs basically

like in the same place at the same time,

without another commitment, you don't

have that much time. You just don't.

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess there's pros and

cons of the committee. Yeah. I don't know

how I would've felt if I had one because

I really didn't have any issue with my PI.

He was really awesome. In fact, he was

the reason why I could write up so

quickly because in my first year he had

me writing little documents on all of

the different proteins and things that

I needed to, and then at the end he wa

like, and that's your introduction.

Yeah staple that together!

And you just need to add, you know,

the new details as they come in.

But realistically your introduction is

written. And then all of my friends were

like, how did you do that? And it's like,

well, remember when you were laughing

at my assignments? Well, those are my introduction.

Yeah, exactly. That's great. Honestly.

He was a clever guy. Okay. And then

when you finished, because I have a

copy of my thesis in the British Library

that, so when we had to get the final

product bound, one of them was to go

into like my university library. One was

to the British library and then, you know,

your PI and then family members. So

did one of your copies go somewhere fancy?

Honestly, no. They had an electronic

database essentially where everyone

submits their thesis and if you want

you can get it printed and like bound

and put in a book and things like that

but nobody's requesting that. You can

also do it just for yourself if you want

to, but other than that, it just kind of

lives in this electronic database at,

Did you print it out?

Nope, we didn't print it out. I think

that that was something too that

was more relatively new. I think

because they were also just like

these giant documents that nobody's

looking at or getting, like all kind

of like printed out. He's looking at,

See I feel like the thing too is just

like, would I even go back and look

at this thing? No. And also if I wanted

to do it, especially from a scientific

standpoint, I feel like it would be

nice to have it in a digital format

so I could like command f my way

through it. So I think that they were

just like, the cost of it and like kind

of all those components aren't something

we're gonna like require, but

you can if you want to.

Yeah. I don't even know if I have an

electronic copy of mine. But bearing

in mind, I submitted in 2004, so

21 years later I don't think so.

Yeah, this was also 2023, so we're

like also post COVID. I feel like too,

COVID kind of also kind of just made

things a little different. It was harder

for things to even be in person.

Like even my dissertation defense,

I kind of like requested that there

not be a Zoom option, but most of

most things still had Zoom options

and you know, like things were not as,

I think it was definitely moving in a

much more digital format, everything,

even meetings and and things like that so.

I wonder what happened. Because I

know, I remember my professor had

like a rack of dissertations behind him

and he'd be like, you know, all of these

are like my students. So I guess that's

kind of sad if that doesn't happen

anymore because I would just go and,

you know, take a book and because I

know when I wrote my acknowledgement

section, which was the hardest section

to write, I had a bunch of different,

you know, versions in front of me from

other people and I kinda like, oh, I like

the way they said that. And like, just

kind of pinch different things. But if it's

digital, you can't really do that as easily.

Because how did you see digital

copies from other people?

I did. So yeah, when I was writing mine

just to get a sense too of like format

or how people kind of did some of their

sections and things, I looked through

some of the digital like thesises.

Okay. So that is a thing.

Well, yeah, yeah. You still could, yeah.

You still kind of all accessible and you

can see things and read them if you want.

But yeah, it's not as satisfying. Probably

it's like holding a book that someone

like really poured themself into, you know,

you I feel like you lose a little of

that when it's just online.

Yeah, I remember handing my mum

a copy and her going, okay dear,

and putting it on the table. And I

don't think, I think she might have

looked at the acknowledgements

just to make sure she's in there but

I very much doubt she has got to

like page one while we talk about

what DNA is. So, well, I guess that, I

mean, there is, there are 20 years

in between your submission and mine.

Things are so different. I heard of

another program kind of at the, like

a different institution and they were

super specific. First of all, you

to pay actually to get your thesis

basically like published. And then

you had it to have incredibly impeccable

formatting if things were not, like,

the margins weren't correct and

like everything wasn't properly like

sectioned off using the correct Roman

numerals and like all these different

things, they would not accept your

thesis and that could even delay people

from walking for graduation. So like,

I think it's like there's so much variety

in how some of these institutions kind

of prioritize things and how they

wanna, how they wanna do it.

Sounds like my internal examiner

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure if I had messed

anything up he would've sent me

back because we did have very

strict requirements. Yeah. And all

of my images had to be on their

own page. And then with a, like I

had to have a table of figures and

a table of, yeah. It was super fun.

I feel kind of fortunate that ours

was not so nitpicky but I mean,

also I feel like you get some, like

a really beautiful product at the

end of it. Ours was kind of basically

just a big giant PDF of everything altogether.

Yeah, I dunno. It is what it is. But

I think there's definitely pros and

cons to the different ways of doing it

It is quite nice to be able to just whip

it out whenever I want and be like,

ta da I've written a book.

Yes.

Okay. So if you could do it again, and

you had the option of doing it in the

UK versus America, would you still choose America?

This is a good question. I think what's

tricky is all the things we don't talk

about in this video, right? Just like family,

friends, friends, cultural differences,

if there are any, you know, just like the,

the things that I feel like are. Not

just the numbers and facts and figures.

That make it feel like I would probably

do one in the US still. But I think what

is really cool about going abroad and

I think a, just like getting to experience

other areas of the world, getting to also

like, I think have a shorter duration of

your PhD sounds great. Like, it sounds

like there's a lot of perks for being

able to do it in the UK. But I think I

might still pick the US but probably

more so for all the reasons that were

not ones we talked about today.

What about you? Would you still

do your PhD in the UK?

Oh, oh, see, this is the thing. I was

an associate dean for years, so I

kinda enjoy the American system.

I think I'd have been frustrated if I

needed to repeat the classes. I

mean the English students that I've

seen were just pulling their hair out

and I couldn't do anything about it.

So for that reason, I would probably

still do the UK version. But I will

admit that because you do rotations

and you usually have longer to research,

that the American or the, the people

who do the American PhD usually

would have more research experience

by the time they graduate, which I think

is important. It's only because I did

my year at VCU, got it right that time.

That I had four years of research going

into my postdoc, because I did see

a difference between the people who'd

gone through the American system

versus the people who'd gone through

the British and some of the European

systems are longer. So I think there

is a little bit of a difference. But no,

I enjoyed mine. Luckily I didn't have

any issues. But I can see if someone

did have issues with the professor,

the American system is better in that

way. You, I feel like you are more protected.

Yeah. Yeah. And there definitely

are some extra safeguards there

that are nice, but I think that there's

like a lot about the UK system that

makes a lot of sense. You know, like

not repeating all these courses

actually training people maybe from

the beginning for what they actually

wanna do ultimately as a career.

Having be a shorter timeframe,

especially since you're making less

money. So, yeah, I think there's definitely

pros and cons on both sides.

Okay. Do you think that's everything

we wanna cover. I think so, right

I think so, yeah.

Okay. Well thank you for joining me

today, Shayla. It's been a pleasure.

We're gonna do a couple of these

videos on a variety of different things.

We haven't touched Shayla's expertise

yet, so wait for the video that's

coming on project management and

we'll see you next time. Thank

you for joining us. Bye bye.

Yes. Thanks for having me. Bye.