www.youtube.com/.../watch?v=V1d6US3QYcQ

Hello everyone and welcome to

a different kind of video. Today I'm

joined by Dr. Shayla Vradenburgh,

who is the founder, what would

you call it? Founder of Revolting

Science Resources. And I'm gonna

let her explain what that is. But today,

because I was trained in the UK and

Shayla was trained in the US, we are

going to talk about the differences

between the UK versus US PhD. So

Shayla, do you wanna introduce

yourself? So, yeah. My name is Dr.

Shayla Vradenburgh. I am the founder

of Revolting Science Resources,

which is a company that's designed

to bring the principles of project

management to academic scientists

and researchers. I realized while

I was finishing up my PhD and

afterwards when I kind of learned

a little more about project management,

how vital it is to the work that we

do as researchers. And so I created

a company that's all about kind of

ways that you can implement

some of those principles in the

work that you do.

And Shayla also gives presentations

at conferences and at institutions.

So, you know, please consider bringing

her in. She is great. I did see her

present at the National Postdoctoral

Association. So yeah, that's a bit

about Shayla. You all know me

because you are on my YouTube

channel. I'm Kate, I'm the founder

of EduKatedSTEM, and normally I

talk about education and professional

development. So this slots in beautifully

because at the beginning of your

career you might be considering

whether you should do a PhD. And

also maybe where you should do

one because whether you are

international, whether you're from

the UK, or the US, students come

from each country all the time. And

there are videos on YouTube already,

from various people explaining why

they chose various countries or not.

So I encourage you to look at those,

but Shayla and I will be talking about

our personal experiences and also

the information that is relevant today,

which is in May, 2025 because we

did do a little bit of researching

around this area. So how about we

talk about the application process.

Do you wanna go first, Shayla?

Yeah. So I will say it's been a few

years since I've applied. I applied

back in 2017, so it's again, been a

few years, but for that application

process, most of the time it looks

pretty similar for a lot of different

universities. And also what I'll say

is I got my PhD in neuroscience

and in a lot of institutions in the

US that can be in kind of different

places. For me, most of the places

I applied, it was part of the school

of medicine, but sometimes you

can have it be parts of different

biology departments or the college

of arts and sciences. And so, sometimes

things can vary based off of what

department or school that you're

applying to. For kind of mostly like

these biomedical science school

of medicine things, there's also

sometimes umbrella programs.

So some of the institutions I

applied to, you actually apply to

an umbrella program and then

you kind of select your specialization

afterwards. Some of them will let

you apply directly to a specialization.

So, some of those kind of nuances

are a little different. But a lot of the

time it requires some sort of cover

letter or at least like personal statement,

some sort of, you know, like basically

talking a little about the things

you've accomplished in a CV. Having

letters of recommendation and a

lot of it is really predicated on how

much research experience you have.

They really wanna see some tangible

ways that you've actually gained

some experience that's relevant to

the work that you're hoping to do.

And then there normally is an

application fee. I know when I was

applying, I actually went to a national

conference called SACNAS, and

while I was there, I actually was

able to get a lot of waivers for

different institutions that I didn't

actually have to pay that application

fee. But that can be another thing

that kind of adds up if you're applying

to a lot of different institutions.

And yeah, I think those were like

most of the components for kind

of applying. I think it honestly was

a little similar when you're thinking

about like applying for undergrad

versus applying for grad school.

I also know too, like sometimes

the GRE, or like the GMAT, was

a test you would take. I took

the GRE, it was required when

I applied, but I think about two

years into my grad program,

they actually got rid of that

requirement at my institution

and at a good number of

institutions. So something

though to keep in mind to

definitely think about is whether

or not that test might be

something you need to include.

I will say that having sat on

an admissions committee,

how you do on the GRE or

the GMAT does not indicate

how well you do in graduate

school which is one of the

reasons why we discussed

dropping it. Because you

couldn't tell it really didn't

indicate your success or not.

Okay, so the British system is

different. You apply to a specific

research project with a particular

professor. So completely different.

You have to find the listings,

you find the research that you're

interested in, and then you

apply specifically to work for

that individual. So, you know,

we don't normally have rotations

like you do in America because

you're specifically going for that

particular project and professor.

Which is good and bad, because

what happens if you don't like

the professor? You're kind of

stuck. That's it. But that also

means that you know what

your project is as soon as you

come in, there's no surprise.

You literally applied for it.

And at least when I applied,

which was a very long time ago,

over 20 years ago, there was

no application fee. You just

sent your materials off. So

CV and a cover letter, maybe

a personal statement. And

definitely your transcripts

and letters of recommendation,

you just sent those off. I can't

remember how many I actually

applied for because there was

no financial component. So I

could have applied for every

single one I looked at. And then

I definitely had a number of

interviews which were all quite

different. So Shayla, do you wanna

talk about your experience for interviews?

Yeah. So I had a couple of interviews

that I had scheduled. They look

pretty much the same though,

where essentially you kind of start

by meeting maybe some people

for an informal sort of like dinner.

You meet some of the grad students

or even the faculty that are part

of the program. Then the next day

it was normally kind of like a full day.

You would do interviews with

different faculty members.

A lot of the time they'd give

you the option of people

you could select or you can

request specific faculty members

to meet with. And then they

kind of have different grad

students or people kind of walk

you between all these different

faculty interviews. And then

there normally was some sort

of a panel interview as well, so

you would meet with, most of

the time, it was mostly faculty

with a couple of graduate student

representatives. And then essentially

you do a panel interview as well

and kind of just answer lots of questions

about your research, talk about

their research. And I think what's

also so valuable about this interview

process is that it's not only an

opportunity for, you know, these

institutions to get to know you

and why you might be a good

fit, but you can also take that

opportunity to get to know them

and see how kind of the grad

students seem to be in this kind

of environment or how they seem

to support them, and how you

might fit in in that space as well.

That's a great point. You are

interviewing them at the same

time because it's a huge commitment

and if you choose the wrong

school or the wrong program,

then you might not enjoy the

experience. You might decide

to leave the program, which

would be terribly sad. So for my

interviews, I had to give a scientific

presentation at some of them

which was incredibly intimidating.

I did that for Oxford. And then

there's multiple interviews with

different professors. Even if you're

not wanting to work for them,

you still get interviewed by

multiple people. And I definitely

had a panel interview for the

PhD program I ended up going to.

I had a panel and it was actually

really interesting because there

were four professors for four

different proposals. And the

professor that I interviewed

for I actually am very glad

he didn't choose me and I

didn't get the project. But

someone else didn't like

any of his candidates, but

he liked me. But because

we'd all interviewed together,

he offered me a position,

so yay for the panel!

Yes. And also, I guess I'm curious,

for the presentation you had

to give, was that like a slideshow?

I know sometimes you do like

kind of chalkboard.

No. Full PowerPoint presentation.

Like an hour long?

God no, it wasn't an hour, maybe

10, 15 minutes. Okay. And luckily

it was because I had previously

done research in America, so

I presented on that research. But

yes, everyone who was being

considered for that particular

program, we all have to give

PowerPoint presentations.

So I assume all of us had

previous research experience,

otherwise, what would you have presented on?

Yeah, I was wondering that too.

I was like, hopefully you have.

Yeah. Similar to to what you said

about people in like if you've done

previous research experience,

so in America, having those summer

internships are really important if

you want to move ahead into a PhD program.

Yeah, for sure. I did a summer research

program at the University of New Mexico,

and I think that was one of the most

kind of transformative things I could

have done I think for my career. I

think a) it was just a really hands-on

time. I got to spend literally a whole

summer just focusing on research,

working in a different place, working

with different lab members.

Figuring out different techniques.

And then I got to present that work

ultimately too at places like SACNAS

which also kind of helped just broaden

my range of contacts and different

people within kind of different areas

of the world. So, yeah, I would highly

recommend for anybody who,

especially as an undergrad and is

thinking about research, like take a

summer, there's so many of these

different programs and a lot of times

they pay you stipends to participate.

So yeah, I think it's an incredible experience. Yeah.

Yeah. So I did a sandwich undergraduate,

which meant that for my third year,

my junior year, I had to leave and go

and have a proper research job so I

could have gone and worked in a

pharmaceutical company. But I was

selected to come to the University

of Virginia to do a year of cancer research,

which is how I started off my cancer

research kind of career because I

realized, oh, I can do that.

Yeah, that's,

and then because that was on

my CV, and at the time it was

more unusual in the UK. Because

sandwich degrees I don't know

how popular they are now, but

back then they weren't terribly

popular. I mean, I got interviewed

at the majority of the places that I applied for.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like an incredible opportunity.

It was good. Thank you UVA.

Okay. So I think one of the key

things about the differences is the

duration, because a British PhD

is much shorter. Right. So most

people finish between three to

four years. I actually submitted

my PhD thesis or dissertation in

under three years, which is unusual,

but we get them through quicker.

And we can talk about the reason

for that in a moment, but Shayla,

what's the, how long does an American one last?

Yeah, it can typically range

somewhere between five to seven

years. I've seen people extend

beyond that. I think most of the time

when you would ask an institution

what their average is, they'll

probably say like five and a half to six.

But yeah, that could definitely be

a range. And I think especially after

COVID, I think those numbers increased

a little bit. But yeah, it's definitely a bit longer.

Yeah. I've known a couple of

students who've taken nine, so

as have I,

If your professor is willing to keep

paying you, you just kind of hang

around which is also not necessarily

a good thing because you wanna

get out and do a postdoc and move

on to the next step of your career.

Yeah. I think that's something too

people don't talk a lot about is,

you know, you generally don't make

a lot with these PhD stipends.

Really its oodles of money Shayla!

I mean, you're right. What am I talking about?

But, you know, I think for, if you

think about how long this is, like

five to seven years, that's a long

time to be making not the most

amount of money. And then especially

if the next step is a postdoc, which

they are generally underpaid as well.

You know, you're going to, it's gonna

take a lot longer before you're actually

making a salary that kind of helps

support your life and especially

the kind of experience that you have.

Let's talk money. So back 20 years

ago, I got paid 12,000 pounds per

year to do my PhD which at the

time was a very well funded PhD

and unusually. Tell me how you

got paid Shayla. I got paid every three months.

Interesting.

So I had to budget really well for

those three months.

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

And for me, so my PhD was not

terribly long ago. We actually saw,

I think, two increases during the

time I was doing my PhD, but I

started at 30,500 and that honestly

isn't like, I think that is a generally

well-funded PhD. I think Charlottesville

is a little bit of a pricier area, but

honestly I didn't have a problem

living with that stipend. We saw a

couple of increases, so I think by

the time I finished, I think it ended

up around 33,500, somewhere

around there. I think you asked me

another question though, and I forgot it.

No, I just realized, did I just say I

did my research at UVA? I did it at VCU.

Oh, yeah. Oh, so you did it at VCU?

Wait, I just said the wrong university.

I was like, I didn't know that you went to UVA.

No, no. I've been to, I've visited UVA.

No, I was in Richmond.

Okay, that's close. It's really,

I was like, it had Virginia in the title,

but that is so wrong. Amnesia.

I was like, I feel like Why, why did

we not talk about this before?

No, no. I went, it was a VCU. I was

at the Massey Cancer Center

the Virginia Commonwealth University.

I'm going crazy at the grand old

age of 45. When you said you, I

was like, wait, I didn't go to Charlottesville.

I am going nuts. I'm sorry, Shayla.

Oh, that's fine.

Okay, so, so that's how much you

got paid. So how much were you

making at the end? Because you

started at 30.

Yeah, I think it ended up around,

I feel like it was 33, but there's a

chance it was 35. One of those two numbers.

Okay. So it went up a decent

amount though, in a couple of years.

Yeah. Ultimately it took me six year

to complete my PhD. So over the

course of six years that's how much we went up.

Okay. So a stipend currently in the UK,

and this is for 2025 to 2026, you

would probably make just under 21,000

pounds. And importantly that stipend

isn't taxed, so you get all of the money.

Yeah. Yes. And how much, how much is

an American one? I actually don't

know what the current numbers are.

That's a good question.

I put it in there.

There we go. It's like 20 to 50.

20 to 50 K. Yeah. I was like,

I don't know. I, I think too, it's so

varying depending on where you

live as well. Like I know that some,

you know, places, especially in

pricier areas like California or

New York, they might be able to

give you a better stipend because

your cost of living is gonna be

significantly more than someone

may be in Texas or Tennessee

So it is like probably a very wide range.

I think that that also is to do with

humanities versus STEM because

I wasn't necessarily looking just

for STEM. Yeah. So I think that

might've incorporated some

humanities and they are

unfortunately paid a lot less

than STEM degrees, I don't know why.

And Yeah. And being part of the

School of Medicine, I think we

some of the best paid grad students

on the campus.

Wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. But yeah,

so, but ours is also taxed, so most

of the time I think it sometimes can

be a little confusing and maybe

even frustrating about how the

stipend works in America because

you generally don't get something

like a W2 that you can easily submit

to pay your taxes. Nothing's withheld.

So you need to withhold yourself

and make sure that you're paying

it properly. So it can be a little bit

more to figure out and not as easy

or convenient, but you do have to pay taxes on it.

Did your graduate school have

like a presentation once a year

to help you do your taxes? Because

I know some schools do that.

No, and that would've been great.

I know some do, and I know, I

think even mine has started to do

things, but when we were starting,

they literally had kind of like meetings

that were basically like, we will

not help you with your taxes. This is

your responsibility. You guys figure it out.

The don't want to get sued!

Like, I don't know what the ultimate goal

of that was, but I'm glad they're

starting to incorporate work.

Yeah. No, we, we definitely did

it until we got told that, you know,

we could get sued if they got given

the wrong information. So we did it for

a while and then it stopped at the

graduate school I was an associate

dean for. Okay. So another big

thing is the fees that you pay. So

in the UK if you're a domestic student,

you are gonna pay just short of 5,000

pounds, and that's per year. If you're

an international student, you are

going to pay significantly more,

anywhere between 20 and 35,000

pounds. And then in addition to that,

we have something called a bench

fee or a research support fee, so

that basically helps to pay for all

of the things that you use in the lab.

Which could be anywhere between

1000 to 10,000 pounds and that's

per year. And then obviously if you

get a scholarship or some kind of

thing through your program, they

might pay for a portion or all of that.

So luckily for me, I had to pay

zero which is awesome. But some

people do have to pay. So what

are the fees in America?

Yeah, so we also have tuition

and I think there generally tends

to be things like in-state versus

out of state. And then obviously

if you're an international student.

What I will say is at least in the

school of medicine, and when I

was in grad school, we got our

tuition waived. So no one paid

for tuition. We also got free health

insurance and yeah, so it, it ended

up being something that wasn't

really a cost that came out of the

stipend that we received. Generally

though, how it would work is there's

like a period in which the actual,

like the school of medicine paid

for your stipend until you joined a

lab, and then your PI would likely

have to take over those tuition

costs essentially from, yeah, the school.

So even though you aren't gonna

have to get it taken out of your,

you know, like actual stipend,

somebody is likely paying for it

in some way, or there might be

waivers that exist for portions

or all of your kind of schooling

or training there. But yeah, I think

it totally just kind of depends

on the program. And again, like

the school of medicine got a

lot of perks that other kind of

departments and schools did

not get so I think in terms of

fees and things like that, if you

are at universities that aren't

going to offer tuition waivers

or are gonna require you to pay

for some of that, it could range

anywhere from, you know, like six

to $11,000 for instate up to 25

plus for out of state or international

students. So could be a big range.

Yeah. And I think that it is important

to note that if you're out of state,

that's the same fee you pay as an

international student. Yes.

Which to me is incredible because,

you know, if you go from, I don't know,

Texas to California, it almost feels

like you should be paying less than

someone who's coming from an

international country. So that's a

bargain frankly. If you are going out

of state, um, it's a little crazy. And

then there is a difference between

a public institution and a private

institution. So did you wanna say

what the difference between those are?

In terms of the cost?

Uh, well, the cost, but also like what

is the difference? Like if someone

doesn't know the difference between

a public institution and a private,

so what is the difference between them?

Yeah. Most of the time that's generally

kind of how they're funded. So a

lot of public institutions are gonna

be funded by state or even federal

funds. Whereas private institutions

are generally not, they might still

receive them in some capacity, but

they generally don't have to follow

some of the specific kind of guidelines

or rules. They get a little bit more

freedom sometimes in the ways

that they're able to operate and

they generally aren't receiving those

state or federal funds. But yeah,

in terms of the cost, that generally

makes those private institutions a

lot more expensive. And so the public

institutions tend to be a bit more

affordable, especially when you're

thinking about the tuition costs.

And the way that I think of a public

institution is it's usually like the

state schools. So like the University

of California would be a public

institution or the University of Maryland

or Virginia, or actually is UVA is that public?

Yes, but the one that always trips

me up is the University of Pennsylvania.

That one is a private institution.

Oh, it is? I'm pretty sure someone

can come for me, but I'm pretty sure.

So I know that if you're interested

if you've heard of the Ivy League,

that's only for a small portion of the

country and it's only a few universities,

but there's now lists for different categories.

So there's now something called

the Public Ivy League table, which

comprises of universities across

the whole of the country which is

awesome. So if you want to go

somewhere, which you're still gonna

get a great education, but it's

not gonna cost the world look up

the public list of Ivy Leagues and

just to give you a hint, my favorite,

the UC's are all in there. So University

of California, totally representing.

Yeah. I think too, both of the schools

I attended, the University of Virginia

and the University of Florida think

have made the public Ivy list. But

yeah, so it's, yeah, you can still

a great education and it not cost

the world, which I think is something

that people sometimes forget. Yeah. Yeah.

Sounds, just because prestige doesn't

mean that it's necessarily going to

give you an amazing it. Remember, it

also depends on your professor and

the people in the lab who are training you.

Yeah. Definitely, and I think, I honestly

didn't even know that you could get

paid at one point for going to a,

especially like a PhD program, especially

a lot of the ones in the United States,

they tend to at least give you some

sort of a stipend and a lot of the times they'll

waive your tuition so you don't even

have to pay those fees. But you're

able to get a good education. You're

maybe not making a ton of money,

but you are getting that degree from

a great institution for not quite as much.

Possibly getting more than the Brits.

I guess we need to do the, the pound

versus dollar conversion. Yeah.

That would've been clever for me to

do that, but I did not look into that.

I guess it depends on the day,

so I guess it doesn't matter.

True.

Okay, so we, should we talk about

funding? Because at home in the

UK we have a number of different

ways that you can get funded.

A lot of them are different research

councils, depending on your research

focus. So a couple of them would

be the Biotechnology and Bioscience

Research Council, or the BBSRC.

You also have the Engineering and

Physical Sciences Research Council,

or the EPSRC, and then you can get

private funding from like Cancer Research

UK or someone else. So it depends.

You might be able to apply for your

own funding, but usually if your professor

has put a position out there, they've

got the funding for three years.

Yeah. So funding is a little different

for a lot of the institutions in the US.

So part of it is that your PI might

have funding, you know, for a project

you're working on initially, they might

not, but they could still take you.

And then on top of that, like you

can obviously apply for your own

funding. They can apply for other

funding for different projects that

you work on. The largest funder,

especially for biomedical research

in the US is the National Institutes

of Health at the NIH. So most people

have some sort of a grant from the

NIH, at especially R1 or kind of like

really high level research institutes

in the US. Other options are places

like the National Science Foundation

or NSF, that funds a ton of people

as well. There's also private funding

and then also there tends to be a

lot of internal ways that you can

make, you know, basically get scholarships

from your institution. So there's

normally grants or foundations they

also have to do like training grants

as well, especially kind of for those

first couple years of your PhD that

you're able to apply for and get

some funding for as well.

I will say scholarships are, are

kind of fun, at our graduate school

we had a few competitions depending

on what year you were in. And so

first years could win and that was

due to their academic performance

in courses. And then for later years

it might be on a research proposal

that they've put in and it was looked

at similar to like a mini grant proposal

where it got reviewed by a team and

then the winners won the scholarship.

So look out for those if you are gonna

go to school because having those

on your CV will definitely help you

in the future because they are

quite prestigious to win.

Yeah, definitely. And also at our

institution, if you ever did get

some of those bigger grants,

especially from the NSF or the NIH,

they actually would give you an

extra bump in your stipend. So

you've got like a little extra bonus

for getting awards like the F31.

So yeah, those are other ways that

you can even just make a little extra.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So should we talk

about the structure? Yeah, because

they are quite different.

Yes. And I wonder too, I'm curious if

this also plays into maybe some

of the difference in the timeframes.

Oh, it has. It absolutely has to.

Yes. But yeah, so at least in kind

of the biomedical sciences in

particular, but most of the PhD

programs, again you're thinking

about this in roughly the average

of five and a half to six years. And

normally those first two years are

gonna be really heavy on a lot of

different courses and other things

that you need to take as requirements.

For our institution, the way they

did it was actually like you came

in as like kind of a group and a

cohort from all different, again,

kind of disciplines underneath

some sort of umbrella of biomedical

sciences. We had to take a course

altogether that was called the core

course. It was kind of just like ultimately

like kind of the main things you

need to know, but kind of what that

looks like can vary so much between

different institutions. Like literally

between every different program

there can be different requirements

on what the courses look like. And

then we have lots of the required

courses like ethics or kind of also

just like stats, data courses. But

pretty much by the end of your

second year, those were all done.

There were very few courses you

needed to take beyond that.

And then you primarily focused

on doing research and then that

also kind of broke things up as

well in terms of like exams and

ways that you kind of progressed

through the program. So it's like

the first two years are kind of course

heavy. Then roughly around your

second year you need to do a

qualifying exam, and that's when

you move from a PhD student to

a PhD candidate. If you pass, those

look also very different. So maybe

that's something we can talk about

too, is what all these kind of candidacy

exams look like. But then you roughly

do research for kind of the remainder

of those four-ish years, and then that

ultimately ends with you defending

your dissertation.

Okay, so the English system or the

British system is quite different.

So the way I look at it is because

we specialize earlier. So I did an

applied biochemistry and molecular

biology undergraduate degree. So

from the age of 18, that's all I did.

So I covered biology, chemistry,

maths, statistics. I didn't do do any

other language. I didn't do any

humanities. It was pure science.

And so we don't do any classes,

we don't do any courses, presumably

because we've covered more of it

in our undergrad. And I can tell you

that having had British students in

the graduate school that I worked in,

when they did their courses, they

just felt that they were relearning

the same information. They weren't

stretched in any way. They, you know,

felt that it was utter nonsense.

But they were forced to basically do

it again which they were very

disappointed in. So we go straight

in because you know what your project

is, there's no rotations. You go in

on day one, you start doing your

literature review, learning your topic,

and then get trained by the people

in the lab on various techniques

and other things. I had a meeting

with someone from my university.

It was actually in between my

second and third year, but they'd

essentially forgotten me. It's supposed

to be done between the first

and second year but because I

did my PhD and I wasn't on the

university campus, I was at the

medical research laboratory, so I was

at a completely different place

about 30 miles away. So eventually

when all of my friends who were

the year below me were doing this,

I was like, wait, am I supposed to

do that? And so I contacted them

and they were like, oh, yeah, you are,

you know, so write a short paper.

It was like, I don't know, 10, 15 pages

on my research. And then I had to

go in and meet with an internal professor,

and we just had a conversation

for like an hour on my research. And

he asked me lots of questions and

it was actually really helpful because

he ended up being my examiner. And

because of that conversation, I

knew that he wasn't gonna ask me

questions on the proteins that I was

researching. He was gonna ask me

the questions on the proteins that

he was researching, which were

somewhat in the same pathway,

but I wasn't researching his proteins.

So that definitely helped. And

then at three years, I handed in

my dissertation and then a few

months later, it takes a little longer

in the UK to have your exam and

we call it, this is gonna sound really

funny, we always called it a viva.

But when I Googled it, because I have

heard it called a viva, and like we used

to laugh at people going, viva, that's

wrong. It's a viva. But according to

Google, the technical term is a viva

voce, which is Latin for oral exam.

That makes sense.

So viva, viva. I'm gonna say viva

because that's what we always

used to say, but maybe my Latin,

which is non-existent is wrong.

It's understandable that maybe

it's not quite polished.

Not really. But no, it was definitely

a moment. But I'm very thankful

for that mini exam because without

it, I wouldn't have known how to

handle my proper one because I

literally spent weeks before my

exam researching his proteins,

which had nothing to do with mine.

Yeah, that's so interesting.

So, yeah. So should we talk about

what the defense looks like?

Yeah, so I guess too, I can like

back up and talk a little about our

qualifying exam. So that generally

for most programs, essentially

looked like creating specific things

like specific aims page, and that's

what you would send out to a committee

that you assemble. And then

basically they'd read that and

then you do a presentation

where you walk through what

you're planning to do for your

dissertation project. I was in a

program that decided to kind of

change things up and do something

different. So also, again, like things

are so dependent on different

departments and schools. I actually

did, like, after my second year, we

wrote a review paper and then that

is actually what we did a presentation

on, essentially kind of the background

of whatever our research project was.

Then following our third year, we essentially

had to do the specific aims page and talk

about our actual research project,

which people have mixed opinions about.

And then again, that kind of at the

end was that dissertation defense,

the way also dissertations are written

can vary so much between different

disciplines, schools, universities,

and the requirements that they have.

UVA was very relaxed with their

requirements for the dissertation.

It was essentially, you write kind of

an introduction, you write conclusion,

but you kind of staple all of your

papers and all the work that you've

done kind of in between. And I

don't know if anybody actually

read my whole dissertation. So

there was that. I don't think anybody

did. I, you essentially give it out to

your committee, a bit before you

actually defend. But I don't think

a single person read the whole thing.

How long was it? Because I'm

used to people waiting like a few weeks.

Yeah. So when they found out that

I waited, like I think mine was. I

handed mine in in September

and I didn't defend until towards

the middle to the end of November.

So that was definitely two months.

Yeah. I think generally it's recommended

Yeah. To give like a couple weeks to

a month beforehand to let like your

committee look at it. But honestly,

I, again, like I don't, I don't know how

many of them actually take any of

that time to read through it. So, the

actual defense though, is generally

split up between a private and a

public defense. And that also can

look really different depending on

the institution that you're at. The way

our university, like my department also,

not even just everyone at UVA, but

my department did it by first you do

a private defense, and so it's just your

committee. You do a presentation

talking about everything that's basically

in your dissertation. They grill you,

ask you a bunch of questions, but then

if they approve and they think that

it kind of meets the standards, then

you pass. And then you pretty much

set like the last requirement is to do

a public defense, but if you've passed

your private, you are guaranteed pretty

much to pass at that point. And so

then you do a public defense. That's when

you can invite other people, friends,

family, and then do a public defense.

Basically the same presentation that

you gave to your committee, you do

again in public. Some kind of departments

do them together. So it's like you'll first

do this public defense where everybody

comes, you do that presentation and

then you have the private defense

but right after that and then your

whole committee just grills you on

what you presented. But generally it

looks like one of those two things.

And I've heard that for most places,

they generally don't even let you get

to the point of like scheduling that

defense if they don't think that you're

ready to pass it. So most people end

up passing their dissertation defenses.

Yeah. Do you, have you known anyone

who got sent back and had to continue

working or not?

Not for the dissertation defense. I

have for the qualifying exam but not

for the dissertation defense, no

Okay. So yeah, ours is definitely

different. So I actually, I think

it's because I was based at two

different places. because I got

my degree from a university, but

was based at the medical research

council. So I gave a lecture or a

presentation at the MRC. And then

I went to my university and gave a

seminar there which was completely

separate. So two completely different

days. And then that was before the

end of September. And then I had my

defense in November. And my defense

was just with two people. So I had one

external examiner who was an expert

in my field, and then I had the same

internal examiner who I'd already met

with and therefore, you know, prepared for.

And normally we always got told

that the external examiner is gonna

be the worst one because they are

the expert in your field. Mine wasn't,

it was my internal, and that's purely

because he just kept asking me

questions related to his research,

which was great. Thankfully I had

already prepared for that but still

it was a struggle. And, then you

can have a few different things can

come out of that you can pass

with no corrections whatsoever,

which is incredibly rare. You can

pass with some corrections, or I

have known people to either fail

outright or be sent back to either

do more research or to rewrite

parts or all of their thesis. So

I have known that to happen. And

so I had to do some changes, and

it was just nitpicky. And it was so

funny because when you said that

people didn't read your thesis, both

of mine had read the entire thing.

They had tabs on the various pages,

and my exam was basically going

through page by page and then them

asking me the relevant questions that

they'd come up with on that page,

I answered them and then we kept going.

So they definitely, very different.

They'll definitely read it because there

were notes and like sometimes they'd

be like, we just don't like the way you

wrote this. But then there'd be a note.

And so I got basically a list of the things

that they wanted corrected, and it

was so nitpicky. It was because my thesis was on DNA repair. So obviously one of the first publications that I referenced was Watson and Crick. Right. Except, um, I'd only put in like one initial and they wanted all four. Um, it was, it was great. It was great. Um, and so I had to change them and then I had to email, um, per chapter to my internal exam surprise, my internal, um, so he could check that I had corrected it and then I was allowed to print it out for the final copy and he checked every single one.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it totally, it's so variable and I think too, part of it is like the PI that I worked with that was not something that they personally thought was. As valuable to like comb through. Like they cared much more about doing that with publications than mm-hmm. Your dissertation. And especially since the way that ours worked was essentially you putting all of your publications just kind of like in the middle of your dissertation.