35C3 - Information Biology - Investigating the information flow in living systems
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0:00 - 0:1835C3 preroll music
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0:18 - 0:24Herald Angel: What happens if you mix
Shannon's information theory and -
0:24 - 0:31biological systems? A dish better served
hot. Please welcome our computational -
0:31 - 0:38systems biology chef, who will guide you
through investigating the information flow -
0:38 - 0:43in living systems. Please welcome with a
very warm round of applause Jürgen Pahle. -
0:43 - 0:52applause
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0:52 - 0:57Jürgen Pahle: Thanks a lot and thanks for
having me. It's great that so many of you -
0:57 - 1:01are interested in that topic, which is not
about technical systems but actually -
1:01 - 1:07biological cells. So, I am leading a
group in Heidelberg at the university -
1:07 - 1:17there and we are mostly interested in how
information is processed, sensed, stored, -
1:17 - 1:25communicated between biological cells. And
we are interested in that because it's not -
1:25 - 1:31obvious that they actually manage to do
that in a reliable fashion. They don't -
1:31 - 1:35have transistors. They only can use their
molecules mostly proteins, big molecules -
1:35 - 1:45that are little engines or little motors
in the cell that allow them to fulfill -
1:45 - 1:52their biological functions. If information
processing fails in cells, you get diseases -
1:52 - 2:00like epilepsy, cancer and of course
others. Now, cellular signaling pathways -
2:00 - 2:07have been studied in some detail - mostly
single pathways. More and more also -
2:07 - 2:15networks of pathways but surprisingly
little conceptual work has been -
2:15 - 2:19done on them. So we know the molecules
that are involved, we know how they -
2:19 - 2:28react, how they combine to build these
pathways. But we don't know how, actually, -
2:28 - 2:36information is transferred or communicated
across these pathways and we intend to -
2:36 - 2:43fill that gap in our group. And, of
course, first we have to we have to model -
2:43 - 2:52these networks, we have to model these
biochemical pathways. And this is how we -
2:52 - 2:57proceed. So you have a you have a cell -
you can't see that here - but on the upper -
2:57 - 3:02left corner you have that scheme of a cell
with all the different components. You -
3:02 - 3:09have volumes in the cell where
chemical reactions happen. So chemical -
3:09 - 3:15reactions take biochemical species: ions,
proteins, what have you, and they convert -
3:15 - 3:20them into other chemical species, and
these reactions happen in the different -
3:20 - 3:27compartments. Now it's very important to
assign speeds or velocities to these -
3:27 - 3:33reactions because these speeds determine
how fast the reactions happen and how the -
3:33 - 3:39dynamic behavior then results. And once
you have done that, you can translate all -
3:39 - 3:45of that into a mathematical model like the
one shown here on the right. This is an -
3:45 - 3:49ordinary differential equation system, I
don't want to go into detail. I only have -
3:49 - 3:56like two or three formulas that might
be interesting for you. So this is just -
3:56 - 4:01any mathematical model you have
of these systems and then you can start -
4:01 - 4:06analyzing them. You can ask questions
like: "How does the system change over -
4:06 - 4:10time?" That's simulation. "Which parts
influence the behavior most?" "What other -
4:10 - 4:17stable states? Do you have oscillations,
do you have a steady state?" and so on. -
4:17 - 4:22Now, you don't have to do that by hand,
because we are actually also developing -
4:22 - 4:28software - that's just another thing. I
guess you know that all models are wrong. -
4:28 - 4:34We try to build useful ones. So I said you
don't have to do this by hand because we -
4:34 - 4:41are also into method development and we
are building scientific software. One of -
4:41 - 4:45the softwares we build is called COPASI:
COmplex PAthway SImulator. It's free and -
4:45 - 4:50open source, you can all go to that
website, download it, play around with it -
4:50 - 4:59if you want. Because we also use more
demanding computations which we send to -
4:59 - 5:03compute clusters, we also developed a
scripting interface for COPASI, which is -
5:03 - 5:10called CoRC, the COPASI R connector. And
this allows you to use the COPASI backend -
5:10 - 5:16with all the different tools that are in
COPASI from your R programming environment -
5:16 - 5:21and then you can build workflows and send
them to compute cluster. We think it's -
5:21 - 5:28easy to use. If you play around with it
and you get stuck, then just let me know. -
5:28 - 5:31So this is software you can use, you can play
around with. And where do we get the -
5:31 - 5:37models? Well, there is a model database
that is called Biomodels.net, also free to -
5:37 - 5:42use, you can go there and download models.
At the moment they have almost 800 -
5:42 - 5:48different manually curated models, and
almost ten times of that that are built -
5:48 - 5:53automatically. You can just download them
in the so-called SBML format, which is the -
5:53 - 6:00Systems Biology Markup Language, then
import it into COPASI or other software and -
6:00 - 6:02play around with them.
-
6:02 - 6:08OK, so coming back to biology,
one of our favorite systems is -
6:08 - 6:14calcium signaling. Calcium signaling
works roughly like this: You have these -
6:14 - 6:21little - I mean the oval thing is a cell -
then you have these red cones, that are -
6:21 - 6:26hormones, and other substances that you
have in your bloodstream or somewhere -
6:26 - 6:32outside the cell. They bind to these black
things, which are receptors on the cell -
6:32 - 6:37membrane. And then a cascade of
processes happens that in the end leads to -
6:37 - 6:44an in-stream of calcium ions, these blue
balls, from the ER - which is not -
6:44 - 6:48emergency room, but endoplasmatic
reticulum, which is one of the -
6:48 - 6:53compartments in the cell - into the the
main compartment, the cytosol of the cell. -
6:53 - 6:58And also calcium streams into the cell
from outside the cell. And this leads to a -
6:58 - 7:05sharp increase of the concentration of
calcium, until it's pumped out again. There -
7:05 - 7:10are pumps that take calcium ions and
remove them from the cytosol, and pump -
7:10 - 7:16them out of the cell and back into the ER.
This is very important because calcium is -
7:16 - 7:21a very versatile second messenger. That's
what they call it. It regulates -
7:21 - 7:26a number of very important cellular
processes. If you move your muscles, your -
7:26 - 7:31muscle contraction is regulated by
calcium, learning, secretion of -
7:31 - 7:37neurotransmitters, transmitters in your
brain, fertilization. A lot of different -
7:37 - 7:46things are regulated by calcium and, if you
simulate the dynamic processes, you get -
7:46 - 7:51behavior like that. Here you can see it
oscillates, it shows these regular spikes. -
7:51 - 7:59So this is the calcium concentration over
time. Now, if you actually measure this in -
7:59 - 8:06real cells, and this is data measured by
collaboration partners of mine in England, -
8:06 - 8:12you see it's not that smooth. You
get these differences in amplitude of the -
8:12 - 8:18peaks, you get secondary spikes, you get
fluctuations around the basal level, and -
8:18 - 8:23this is because you have random
fluctuations in your system. Intrinsic -
8:23 - 8:28random fluctuations that are just due to
random fluctuations in the timings of -
8:28 - 8:33single reactive events. Single reactions,
biochemical reactions that happen. And in -
8:33 - 8:37in order to capture this behavior,
because this behavior is -
8:37 - 8:42important, that can hamper reliable
information transfer, we have to resort to -
8:42 - 8:48special simulation algorithms, for example
the so-called Gillespie algorithm. And if -
8:48 - 8:52you do that and apply it to the calcium
system, you can see you can actually -
8:52 - 8:57capture these secondary peaks and all the
different other fluctuations you have in -
8:57 - 9:04there. Now, this is just a Monte Carlo
simulation. I say "just". It's really time -
9:04 - 9:07consuming and demanding, because you have
to calculate each and every single -
9:07 - 9:12reactive event in the cell. And that takes
a lot of time. That's why we do that on a -
9:12 - 9:17compute cluster. I told you already, that
calcium is a very versatile second -
9:17 - 9:22messenger. So you have very many different
triggers of a calcium response in the -
9:22 - 9:28cell, things that lead to a certain calcium
dynamics. And on the other hand, -
9:28 - 9:33downstream, calcium regulates many
different things. And so you have this -
9:33 - 9:38hourglass or bow tie structure, and that's
why people have speculated about the -
9:38 - 9:46calcium code: How can it be, that the
proteins - I should go back - that actually do -
9:46 - 9:54all these cellular functions - [Softly]
sorry - these green cylinders that bind -
9:54 - 9:59calcium and are then activated or
inhibited by it, how can it be that they -
9:59 - 10:07know, which stimulus or which hormone is
outside of the cell? They don't see them, -
10:07 - 10:13because there is a cell membrane around
the cell, around the cytosol. So people -
10:13 - 10:20have speculated: Is there information
encoded in the specific calcium waveform? -
10:20 - 10:28Is there calcium code? And how can it be
that the proteins actually decode that code? -
10:28 - 10:35It's fairly established, that
calcium shows amplitude modulation. So the -
10:35 - 10:41higher the amplitude of calcium, the more
active get some proteins. It also shows -
10:41 - 10:46frequency modulation, meaning the higher
the frequency of the calcium oscillations, -
10:46 - 10:50the more active get some proteins. But, maybe,
there are other information carrying -
10:50 - 10:57features in the waveform, like duration,
waveform timing and so on. Now a doctoral -
10:57 - 11:02student in my group, Arne Schoch, has
looked into frequency modulation and he -
11:02 - 11:07actually showed that there are proteins,
in that case NFAT, which is the nuclear -
11:07 - 11:12factor of activated T-cells, which are
important in your immune system. They only -
11:12 - 11:18react to calcium oscillations of a certain
frequency. So they they get activated in a -
11:18 - 11:25very narrow frequency band, and that's why
we call it band-pass activation. -
11:25 - 11:33Okay, so I guess you all know signaling speeds of
technical systems, they are fairly fast by -
11:33 - 11:37now. One of our results, because we
quantify actually information transfer, is -
11:37 - 11:42that calcium signalling operates at
roughly point four bits per second. If you -
11:42 - 11:47compare that to technical systems, that
seems very low, but maybe that's enough -
11:47 - 11:53for all the functions that a cell has to
fulfill. So how did we arrive at this result? -
11:53 - 11:59Well, we used information theory,
classical information theory, pioneered by -
11:59 - 12:06people like Claude Shannon in the 40s,
also by Hartley, Tuckey and a few other people. -
12:06 - 12:09So, they looked at technical
systems, and they have this prototypical -
12:09 - 12:14communication system, where there is an
information source on the left side, -
12:14 - 12:19then this information is somehow encoded.
It's transmitted over a noisy channel -
12:19 - 12:25where the message is scrambled. Then it's
received by a receiver, decoded, and then -
12:25 - 12:30hopefully you get the same message at the
destination, that was chosen at the -
12:30 - 12:38information source. And in our case we
look at calcium as an information source -
12:38 - 12:46and we study how much information is
actually transferred to downstream proteins. -
12:46 - 12:53How do you do that? Well, information
theory 101. Information theory primer. -
12:53 - 12:59In statistical information theory
of the Shannon type, you look at random -
12:59 - 13:04variables. You look at events that have a
certain probability of happening. So let's -
13:04 - 13:13say you have an event that has a
probability of happening, and then Shannon -
13:13 - 13:20said that the information content of this
event should be the negative logarithm - -
13:20 - 13:25which is shown here, the curve on the
right hand side - should be the -
13:25 - 13:30negative logarithm of the probability,
meaning that if an event happens all the -
13:30 - 13:35time - and I will show you an example
later - there is no information content. -
13:35 - 13:39The information content is zero. There is
no surprise, if that event happens, because -
13:39 - 13:45it happens all the time, it's like there's
a sunny day somewhere in the desert. -
13:45 - 13:52However, if you go to lower probabilities,
then the surprisal becomes bigger and the -
13:52 - 13:59information content rises. Now, in a system
you have several events that are possible. -
13:59 - 14:02And if you take the average uncertainty of
all possible events you get something that -
14:02 - 14:08Shannon called entropy. This is still not
information, because information is a -
14:08 - 14:12difference in entropy. So you have to
calculate the entropy of a system, and -
14:12 - 14:18then you calculate the entropy that is
remaining after an observation, say. And -
14:18 - 14:24this difference is the information gained
by the observation. Now, coming to a -
14:24 - 14:28simple example, let's say we have a very
simple weather system where you can only -
14:28 - 14:34have rainy and sunny days. And let's say
they are equally likely. So you have a -
14:34 - 14:46probability of 50%, the average of the
negative logarithm is 1. So, when you -
14:46 - 14:52observe the weather in the system, you gain
one bit per day. You can also think of -
14:52 - 14:57bits as the information you need, or a
cell needs, to answer or decide on one yes -
14:57 - 15:08or no question. Now, if it's always sunny
and no rain, then you get zero information -
15:08 - 15:13content or uncertainty. The average is
zero. So you don't get any information if -
15:13 - 15:20you observe the weather in the desert, say.
80/20: You get a certain bit number per -
15:20 - 15:30day, in that case .64 per day, and you
can do that for Leipzig. In that case, -
15:30 - 15:34Leipzig has ninety nine rainy days per
year, according to the Deutsche -
15:34 - 15:40Wetterdienst. This gives you an
information of .84 bit per day. You can do -
15:40 - 15:44it in a general way. So let's say you have
one event with a probability of p and -
15:44 - 15:50another event with a probability of 1
minus p and then you get this curve, which -
15:50 - 15:57shows you that the information content is
actually maximal if you have maximal -
15:57 - 16:02uncertainty, if you have equally likely
events. If you have more possible events - -
16:02 - 16:08in that case four different ones: sunny,
cloudy, rainy, and thunderstorm - you get -
16:08 - 16:12two bit and this is because of the
logarithm. So if you have double the -
16:12 - 16:19amount of events and they are equally likely
you get one bit more. Hope I didn't lose -
16:19 - 16:26anyone? Now we are always looking at
processes, dynamic things, things that -
16:26 - 16:30change over time, and if we look at
processes we have to look at transition -
16:30 - 16:35probabilities. So we have to change
probabilities to transition probabilities -
16:35 - 16:43and you can summarize them in a matrix. So
let's say, if we have a sunny day today, -
16:43 - 16:48it's more likely that it's also sunny
tomorrow and less likely that it's -
16:48 - 16:52raining, maybe only 25 percent. And, if
it's rainy today, you can't tell, it's -
16:52 - 17:02equally likely. These processes are also
called Markov process. Markov was a -
17:02 - 17:08Russian mathematician and you have them
everywhere. These Markovian processes are -
17:08 - 17:13used in your cell phones, in your hard
drives, they're used for error correction, -
17:13 - 17:20the page rank algorithm of Google is one
big Markov process. So, you're using them -
17:20 - 17:29all the time, nothing technological would
work nowadays without them. Because we -
17:29 - 17:37have knowledge about today's weather, the
uncertainty about tomorrow's weather decreases. -
17:37 - 17:46So now we have an entropy rate,
instead of an entropy. The difference is, -
17:46 - 17:51again, the information you gain by today's
weather. You can do the maths in our -
17:51 - 17:59example. The entropy would be .92 bit per
day and the entropy rate, given that you -
17:59 - 18:06know today's weather, is less. It's .87
bit per day. Now, to complicate things a -
18:06 - 18:11bit more, maybe, we also look at a second
process in that case air pressure and you -
18:11 - 18:17can measure air pressure with these little
devices, the barometers and maybe, if it's -
18:17 - 18:22sunny today and the air pressure is high,
in 90 percent you get a sunny day -
18:22 - 18:26tomorrow. Normally in 10 percent of the
cases you get a rainy day and so on you -
18:26 - 18:32can go through the table. In our case, I
looked it up yesterday. We had a high air -
18:32 - 18:39pressure and it was raining. So in our
little model system it would mean, that -
18:39 - 18:48it's sunny today. Now, I told you
information is a decrease in uncertainty. -
18:48 - 18:52How much information do we get by the
barometer, by knowing the air pressure? -
18:52 - 18:56This is the difference in uncertainty
without barometer and with the barometer -
18:56 - 19:01and in our case we have to assume that the
probability of high and low air pressure -
19:01 - 19:08is the same. And we get .39 bit per day,
that we gain by looking at the air -
19:08 - 19:13pressure. Now, what does that have to do
with biological systems? Well we have two -
19:13 - 19:17processes. We have a calcium process that
shows some dynamics and we have the -
19:17 - 19:23process of an activated protein that does
something in the cell. So we can look at -
19:23 - 19:28both of these and then calculate how much
information is actually transferred from -
19:28 - 19:33calcium to the protein. How much
uncertainty do we lose about the -
19:33 - 19:37protein dynamics, if we know the calcium
dynamics? This is mathematically exactly -
19:37 - 19:43what we are doing and this is called
transfer entropy. It's an information- -
19:43 - 19:49theoretic measure developed by Thomas
Schreiber in 2000. There are some -
19:49 - 19:56practical complications, that we are
working on, and this is what we are using -
19:56 - 20:01actually for the calculations. So in our
case we have data from experiments or we -
20:01 - 20:07use models of calcium oscillations and
then we couple a model of a protein to -
20:07 - 20:14these calcium dynamics. This gives us time
courses, both of calcium and protein, -
20:14 - 20:20stochastic time courses, including the
random fluctuations. And then we use the -
20:20 - 20:26information-theoretic machinery to study
them. And some of our results I want to show -
20:26 - 20:30you. For example, if you increase the
system size, if you increase the particle -
20:30 - 20:35numbers, if you make the cell bigger, then
the information that you can transfer is -
20:35 - 20:41higher. Meaning, if the cell invests more
energy and produces more proteins, it can -
20:41 - 20:45actually achieve a more reliable
information transfer, which comes of course -
20:45 - 20:52with costs for the cell. Also, it seems,
that if you use more complicated dynamics -
20:52 - 20:56- meaning not only spiking, but maybe
bursting behavior where you have secondary -
20:56 - 21:00spikes - then you can transmit more
information because the input signal -
21:00 - 21:08carries more information or can carry more
information in its different features. -
21:08 - 21:12Another result is that proteins - a very
interesting result I think - is that -
21:12 - 21:18proteins can actually be tuned to certain
characteristics of the calcium input. -
21:18 - 21:22Meaning, with all the different calcium
sensitive proteins in the cell they are -
21:22 - 21:28tuned to a specific signal. So they only
get activated or these pathways only -
21:28 - 21:33allow information transmission, if a
certain signal is observed in the cell by -
21:33 - 21:39these proteins. So, in a way the 3D
structure of the protein defines how it -
21:39 - 21:47behaves dynamically, how quickly it binds
and so on, how many binding sites it has, -
21:47 - 21:55and then this dynamic behavior determines
to what input signals that protein is -
21:55 - 22:00actually sensitive. On the right hand side
you can see some calculations we did. The -
22:00 - 22:06peaks actually show where this specific
protein, which is a calmodulin-like protein -
22:06 - 22:10- you don't have to memorize that, it's a
very important calcium sensitive protein - -
22:10 - 22:16where these differently parameterized
models actually get activated and allow -
22:16 - 22:20information transfer. And this allows
differential regulation because you have -
22:20 - 22:26all the different proteins. You have only
one calcium concentration and only the -
22:26 - 22:32proteins that are sensitive to a specific
input get activated or do their things in -
22:32 - 22:36the cell. Now if you look at more
complicated proteins - so Calmodulin, the -
22:36 - 22:41one I just showed you, was only activated
by calcium - more complicated proteins, -
22:41 - 22:47like protein kinase C, for example, they are
both activated and inhibited. So they show -
22:47 - 22:52biphasic behavior, where in an
intermediate range of calcium -
22:52 - 22:56concentration they get activated, with
very high or very low concentrations they -
22:56 - 23:02are inactivated. You can actually see that
these more complicated proteins allow a -
23:02 - 23:08higher information transfer and again
producing these more complicated proteins -
23:08 - 23:13might be more costly for the cell, but it
can be valuable, because they allow more -
23:13 - 23:18information to be transferred. And this
you can see in this plot where we actually -
23:18 - 23:23scanned over the activation and the
inhibition constant of these model -
23:23 - 23:27proteins and you can see that you have
these sweet spots where you get a very -
23:27 - 23:32high information transfer. So color coded
is transfer entropy. Now, coming to a -
23:32 - 23:38different system: Just quickly, we also
looked at other systems of course. Calcium -
23:38 - 23:43signaling is just one of our favorite ones.
We also looked at bacteria and this is -
23:43 - 23:51E. coli, a very famous model system for
biologists. These are cells that can -
23:51 - 23:59actually move around because they have
little propellers at their end. They want to -
23:59 - 24:05find sources of nutrients, for example, to
get food. So they swim into a direction -
24:05 - 24:11and then they decide whether
to keep swimming in that direction -
24:11 - 24:17or whether to tumble, reorient randomly,
and swim in some other direction. The -
24:17 - 24:24problem for them is they are too small.
They can't detect a concentration gradient -
24:24 - 24:30of nutrients, of food between their front
and the back of the cell. So they have to -
24:30 - 24:35swim in one direction and then they have
to remember some nutrient concentration of -
24:35 - 24:41some time back and then they have to
compare: Is the nutrient -
24:41 - 24:45concentration actually increasing? Then I
should continue swimming. If it's -
24:45 - 24:50decreasing, I should reorient and swim in
some other direction. This allows them to, -
24:50 - 24:58on average, swim towards sources of food.
In order to compare over time the nutrient -
24:58 - 25:05concentrations they have to memorize, they
have to know how much nutrients where -
25:05 - 25:12there sometime ago. For that they have a
little memory and the memory is actually -
25:12 - 25:17in the - you can see on the left hand side
the receptor that actually senses these -
25:17 - 25:22nutrients. They can be modified, these
receptors, we call that methylated. So they -
25:22 - 25:27get a methylation group attached. They
have different states of methylation, five -
25:27 - 25:34different ones in that model we are
looking at. This builds a memory. And we -
25:34 - 25:38looked into that, we quantified that with
information theory. This is a measure, -
25:38 - 25:43this is called mutual information. It's
not transfer entropy, it's another measure -
25:43 - 25:50of, in that case, statical information.
You can see, this is the amount of -
25:50 - 25:56information that is actually stored about
the nutrient concentration that is outside -
25:56 - 26:02of the cell. This is in nats, it's not in
bits. It's just a different - you can -
26:02 - 26:07translate them - it's just a different unit
for information. You can also see how the -
26:07 - 26:14different methylation states - so these
are the colored curves - how they go -
26:14 - 26:22through or how they are active with
different nutrient concentrations. This is -
26:22 - 26:26ongoing research. So, maybe, next time,
hopefully, next time, I can show you much -
26:26 - 26:32more. Just to finish this, we also look at
timescales, because the timescales have to -
26:32 - 26:39be right. The system adapts. So if you
keep that cell in a certain nutrient -
26:39 - 26:43concentration, it adapts to that nutrient
concentration and goes back to its normal -
26:43 - 26:48operating level. Now, if you increase the
nutrient concentration again, it shows some -
26:48 - 26:54swimming behavior. So it adapts, but it
also has to decide, it also has to compare -
26:54 - 27:00the different nutrients at different
positions. That's how they have to manage -
27:00 - 27:05the different timescales of decision
making and memory or adaptation and we are -
27:05 - 27:10looking into that as well. Coming to the
conclusions, I hope I could convince you -
27:10 - 27:14that information theory can be applied to
biology, that it's a very interesting -
27:14 - 27:23topic, it's a fascinating area and we are
just at the beginning to do that. I also -
27:23 - 27:29showed you that it's such that in
signaling pathways the components can be -
27:29 - 27:34tuned to their input, which allows
differential regulation. So even though -
27:34 - 27:40you don't have wires you can still
specifically activate different proteins -
27:40 - 27:50with one signal or multiplex, if you want.
We are of course in the process of -
27:50 - 27:56studying what features of the input signal
are actually information-carrying. So we -
27:56 - 28:03are looking into things like wave form and
timing. And we want to look into how these -
28:03 - 28:09things change in the deceased case. So, if
you have things like cancer where certain -
28:09 - 28:16signalling pathways are perturbed or fail,
we want to exactly find out what does that -
28:16 - 28:21do to the information processing
capabilities of the cell. We also found -
28:21 - 28:27out that estimating these information
theoretical quantities can be a very -
28:27 - 28:33tricky business. Another project we are
doing at the moment is actually only on -
28:33 - 28:40how to interpret these in a reliable
manner, how to estimate these from sparse -
28:40 - 28:45and noisy data. So that's also ongoing
work. I would like to thank some of my -
28:45 - 28:51collaborators, of course, my own group, but
also some others, in particular the Copasi -
28:51 - 28:57team, that is spread all over the world.
And with that I would like to thank you -
28:57 - 29:01for your attention and I would be happy to
answer any question you might have. -
29:01 - 29:02Thank you.
-
29:02 - 29:05applause
-
29:05 - 29:13Herald Angel: ... a very warm applause
for Jürgen. If you have questions, there -
29:13 - 29:16are two microphones, microphone number
one, microphone number two and please -
29:16 - 29:23speak loudly into the microphone. And, I think
the first one is microphone number two. -
29:23 - 29:25Your question please.
Microphone 2: Has there been any work done -
29:25 - 29:30on computational modelling of the G-protein
coupled receptors and the second messenger -
29:30 - 29:32cascades there.
Jürgen: Can you repeat that, sorry. -
29:32 - 29:36Microphone 2: Has there any work been done
on computational modelling of G protein- -
29:36 - 29:38coupled receptors
Jürgen: G protein? -
29:38 - 29:40Microphone 2: Yeah.
Jürgen: Oh yes, I mean we are doing that -
29:40 - 29:44because calcium is actually... I mean the
calcium signal is actually triggered by a -
29:44 - 29:50cascade that includes the G protein. Most
of these receptors are actually G coupled -
29:50 - 29:54or G protein coupled receptors. So that's
what we are doing. -
29:54 - 29:57Angel: Thank you. Microphone number two
again. -
29:57 - 30:01Microphone 2: First of all thanks for the
talk. I want to ask you talked a -
30:01 - 30:08little bit about how different proteins
get activated by different signals and -
30:08 - 30:15could you go a bit into detail about what
kind of signal qualities the proteins can -
30:15 - 30:22detect? So are they triggered by specific
frequencies or specific decays, like which -
30:22 - 30:28characteristics of the signals can be
picked up by the different proteins? -
30:28 - 30:32Jürgen: Well, that's actually what we
study. I mean we have another package that -
30:32 - 30:37is linked here, the last one, the
oscillator generator. This is a package in -
30:37 - 30:43R that allows you to create artificial
inputs, where you have complete control of -
30:43 - 30:49all the parameters like amplitude and
duration of the peak, duration of the -
30:49 - 30:55secondary peak, frequencies of the primary
peaks of the secondary peaks, refraction -
30:55 - 31:00period and so on. You have complete
control and at the moment we are also -
31:00 - 31:05running scans and want to find out what
proteins are actually sensitive to what -
31:05 - 31:10parameters in the input signal. What we
know from calcium is that, for example, -
31:10 - 31:19calcium calmodulin kinase 2, also a very
important protein in the nervous system, -
31:19 - 31:26that shows frequency modulation. It has
also been shown experimentally where they -
31:26 - 31:30put that protein on a surface, they
immobilized it on a surface, and then they -
31:30 - 31:34superfused it with calcium concentrations
or with solutions of different calcium -
31:34 - 31:39concentration in a pulsed manner and they
measured the activity of that protein and -
31:39 - 31:45they showed that, with increasing frequency,
the activation gets bigger. At the same -
31:45 - 31:48time it also shows amplitude modulation,
okay? It's also sensitive to the -
31:48 - 31:55amplitude, meaning the absolute height of
the concentration of calcium. -
31:55 - 31:57Microphone 2: Thanks.
Jürgen: Thank you. -
31:57 - 32:01Angel: And again number two please.
Microphone 2: Hey. So you talked about a -
32:01 - 32:07lot of on and off kinetics and I wonder, if
you think about neurons, which are not only -
32:07 - 32:14having on and off, but also many amplitudes
that take a big role in development of -
32:14 - 32:21cells and synapses. How do you measure
that, so how do you measure like baseline, -
32:21 - 32:26sporadic activity of calcium?
Jürgen: Well, in our case there are -
32:26 - 32:29different ways of measuring calcium.
That's not what we are doing... -
32:29 - 32:32Microphone 2: ... not really measuring,
sorry, but more like how do you integrate it -
32:32 - 32:37in your system? Because it's not really an
on/off reaction but it's more like a -
32:37 - 32:43sporadic miniature.
Jürgen: Yeah, I mean in the case of -
32:43 - 32:49calcium you have these time courses, okay?
And we look at the complete time -
32:49 - 32:53course. So we have the calcium
concentration sampled at every second or -
32:53 - 32:59half second in the cell by different
methods. So our collaboration partners -
32:59 - 33:05they use different dyes that show
fluorescence, say, when they bind calcium. -
33:05 - 33:10Some others show bioluminescence. And then
we use these time courses. In the neural -
33:10 - 33:18system it's a bit different. There you
also get the analog mode, where neurons are -
33:18 - 33:24directly connected and they exchange
substances, but most of the case you have -
33:24 - 33:29action potentials and I didn't go into
neural systems at all because things there -
33:29 - 33:34are totally different. You get these
action potentials that are uniform mostly, -
33:34 - 33:38so they they all have the same duration,
they all have the same amplitude. And then -
33:38 - 33:44people in neuroscience or computational
neuroscience mostly they boil the -
33:44 - 33:50information down to just the timings of
these peaks and they use this information -
33:50 - 33:54and mathematically this is a point process
and you can use different mathematical -
33:54 - 34:00tools to study that. We are not really
looking into neurons. We are mostly -
34:00 - 34:07interested in non-excitable cells, like
liver cells, pancreatic cells and so on, -
34:07 - 34:12cells that are not activated, they don't
show massive depolarization, like -
34:12 - 34:18neurons. Thank you.
Angel: Thank you. And obviously again -
34:18 - 34:22number two.
Microphone 2: Hi. So, you mentioned CaM -
34:22 - 34:29kinases 2. I got that you don't work
on neuroscience specifically, but I'm -
34:29 - 34:33pretty sure you have a quite extensive
knowledge in the subject. What do you -
34:33 - 34:42think about this, I would say, hypotheses
that were quite popular a few years ago, I -
34:42 - 34:49think in the US mainly, about the fact
that the cytoskeleton of neurons can -
34:49 - 34:58actually encode and decode through kinases
in the cytoskeleton memories like bits in -
34:58 - 35:03- you know - in a hard drive. What's your
feeling? -
35:03 - 35:07Jürgen: Well, I'm not going to speculate
on that specific hypothesis because I'm -
35:07 - 35:12not really into that, but I know that many
people are also looking into spatial -
35:12 - 35:17effects which I didn't mention here. I
mean the model I showed you is a spatially -
35:17 - 35:22homogeneous model. We don't look at
concentration gradients within the cell, -
35:22 - 35:27our cells are homogeneous at the moment,
but people do that. And of course then you -
35:27 - 35:34can look into things, for example, like a
new topic is morphological computation, -
35:34 - 35:39meaning that spatially you can also
perform computations. But, if you're -
35:39 - 35:41interested in that, I mean, we can
talk offline... -
35:41 - 35:44Microphone 2: ... do you buy into this
theory... -
35:44 - 35:45Jürgen: ... I can give you some pointers
there.. -
35:45 - 35:50Microphone 2: ... but do you have a good
feeling about these theories or you think -
35:50 - 35:52they're clueless.
Jürgen: Well, I think that the spatial -
35:52 - 35:56aspect is a very important thing. And
that's also something we should -
35:56 - 36:02look at. I mean, to me random fluctuations
are very important, intrinsic fluctuations -
36:02 - 36:06because you can't separate them from the
dynamics of the system. They are always -
36:06 - 36:12there, at least some of the fluctuations.
And also the spatial effects are very -
36:12 - 36:15important, because you not only
have these different compartments, -
36:15 - 36:20where the reactions happen, but you also
have concentration gradients across the -
36:20 - 36:25cell. Especially with calcium, people have
looked into calcium puffs and calcium -
36:25 - 36:30waves because, when you have a channel, that
allows calcium to enter, of course directly -
36:30 - 36:34at that channel you get a much higher
calcium concentration and then in some -
36:34 - 36:40cases you get waves that are travelling
across the the cell. And to me it sounds -
36:40 - 36:44plausible that this also has a major
impact on the information processing. -
36:44 - 36:49Yeah. Thank you.
Angel: Thank you. In this case, Jürgen, -
36:49 - 36:55thank you for the talk. And please give a
very warm applause to him. -
36:55 - 36:56applause
-
36:56 - 36:59Jürgen: Thank you.
-
36:59 - 37:03applause
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