Should I Move For a Church or Plant One? - Justin Trevino

At the Fellowship Conference,

I sat down with Justin Trevino,

who years ago considered moving

for a church, but instead,

he remained in Las Cruces, New Mexico

and planted a church.

I wanted to hear from him

about how the Lord brought this about

in order to help others who are

in a similar situation,

and asking the question of,

should I move for a church

or plant a church?

I started out by asking him

to share his testimony

of how the Lord saved him.

Justin: I grew up in a Catholic home,

very religious,

very consistently going to church

every Sunday.

Actually, my great-aunt recalls

taking me to church

under the age of 5 -

weekly mass in the neighborhood mission.

And she says, "From an early age,

you'd sit up in the very front row

and watch that priest talk."

I don't remember those days,

but she says, "Yeah, you used to do that."

I was always attracted to religion.

I was attracted to God

and spirituality and prayer

and works and self-righteousness

and earning and doing
good in that respect.

It wasn't until my junior
year of high school

when a long-time friend that I had

played baseball with began to bring

Bible verses on little
pieces of paper to me.

He'd say, "I'm not trying to change
your religion or anything..."

I know he was because he loves me.

"...But here's a Scripture.

That's the name of the book,

that's the chapter and that's the verse."

And so I'd take it and I'd say,

"I'm not interested."

But I would hold on
to these little post-its

and I'd go home in my Catholic Bible

and I'd open these things
to those passages.

And it was just slowly
God cutting my heart

each time, like, this is what you need.

This is what you're lacking.

This is what you're missing.

At the same time of that occurring,

I was going through confirmation

in the Catholic church,

so I always equate it to

when the hole in the wall

in Ezekiel's day,

when Ezekiel was commanded to look

through that hole and to see the

different sins going on
within the priesthood

and stuff like that.

It was around that time
where I began to see

different holes within
the Catholic teaching

and the Catholic church,

and the inconsistencies
of those around me.

You know, we're all going through

confirmation together,

but there's no desire for God

amongst my friends.

And I'm thinking,

what's going on here?

So, as we're all getting ready

to finally go and confess our sins

once and for all to the priest,

I thought, from everything my friend

is sharing with me,

there's only one High Priest

and that's Christ.

So, as my heart's detaching

from a works-based righteousness,

I realized through my friend

that I was completely lost;

completely headed to hell;

in sin, not right with God.

That Christ was the way,
the truth, and the life

and that no one was getting
to the Father but through Him.

And honestly, it wasn't an Acts 9

experience for me.

I think Kevin mentioned it

a few Fellowship Conferences ago

that the wind blows where He wishes

and for some, it's a tornado,

and for others, it's a gentle breeze.

And for me it was a very gentle breeze.

One minute, it was just: you're dead,

and then you're alive.

You're alive and Christ became precious.

The Word of God became precious

and became my food and my delight,

my joy.

Sin was suddenly filthy.

And my sin in particular was filthy.

And my righteousness

was infinitely unworthy of God.

And I just cast myself upon Christ.

I didn't know words like repentance,

but I knew that the Lord
had turned my heart

from sin to righteousness,

and sin to pursuing Him

and pursuing His Word.

So that was all in about May of 2003.

I was a junior in high school.

It's the greatest thing, obviously, ever

was the Lord opening my eyes to Him.

To Him.

James: At that point,

how much longer was it

until you were exposed
to more sound doctrine

and more sound teaching?

Justin: Yes, so after my conversion

in summer 2003,

I started joining my friend

at a local Bible teaching church.

Arminian-type church

where salvation was a human decision.

It was a work of man.

But nevertheless, the Word of God

was being taught there

systematically through the Bible,

so God was giving me a love for His Word

through this church

and through a faithful pastor

who meant well, who loved his people,

who loved me, took me under his wing

and taught me.

He gave me my first study Bible

and just really, really pushed me

and pressed me to study the Word.

But it wasn't until about 2008,

so I went about five years

into my Christianity

where I didn't know

just the glory of the Gospel.

I knew enough to know

that Christ died for my sins,

that I was a sinner,

that He took my place

so that I could go to heaven.

And I knew that I was commanded to repent

and believe in Christ,

in which I believe God
granted me repentance

and God turned my heart to Him

and opened my heart.

But it wasn't until about 2008

where I got exposed to Paul Washer

on the Internet -

the "Shocking Youth Message"

that a lot of us have heard.

And when I heard that, I thought

whatever this man believes,

whatever this man is studying,

I want to study and I
want to know the Bible

the way this man knows the Bible.

So, there I am.

He's preaching in Matthew 7.

There I am looking at
Matthew 7 in a new light.

And so, I went to the HeartCry website

and looked at the recommended reading list

and later on I discovered
that a lot of these men

are what someone's
calling "reformed" or "Calvinistic"

which I had no idea what
that meant at the time.

And frankly, I didn't care.

I just knew that this is solid stuff

and it's Scriptural.

So, it was about five years before

I started listening to
men like Paul Washer,

John Piper, John MacArthur.

I eventually got started listening

to Illbehonest.com.

So it was about five years.

James: What happened to make you realize

you maybe needed to leave the church

you were a part of

and that the issues were not all minor?

Justin: So we left Calvary Chapel

actually before the Lord opened my eyes

to sound biblical doctrine,

which I'm calling reformed theology.

The doctrines of grace.

We left before just because

there was something in my spirit

that was wounded every time

the pastor would take
the entire congregation

through the sinner's prayer,

and when no one would raise their hand,

there was still that:

Okay, well, since all of us are saved,

let's just thank God now
that all of us are saved.

And that would always just

kind of go against my conscience.

Something was alarming
my conscience there.

So we left a few months before.

We left in summer of 2007

right after we got married -

Lanae and I.

It wasn't until late 2007, 2008

where we were exposed to sound doctrine

and just the glorious Gospel

that we love and embrace today.

James: So here you are at a point

where you left a church.

At that point, what did you do?

Did you find a church or what happened?

Justin: So, while we were

just learning doctrine,

learning theology,

learning that which is sound,

and that which is true,

to my shame, I still had a
low view of the church.

I had a low view of the
local church, I should say.

I could boast all day in being part

of the universal church,

but my view of the local church

was very, very low

because of what I had come out of.

We were actually just kind of meeting

in a park - rogue -

kind of on our own,

still teaching the Bible

sort of from a Arminian perspective,

but just going through the Bible

with a few other people

who wanted to just meet at the park.

So there was no accountability.

There was no structure.

And when I say structure,

I'm talking that which you see

in the New Testament

with biblical leadership

and church discipline

and an actual mission to go out

and make disciples. None of that.

It was just surviving in a park

and eventually in a living room.

So, yeah, we didn't
immediately start looking

for a new church in town.

It was a few years before we did that.

James: Did you eventually
find a church in town?

Justin: We didn't find a church in town.

What we did was we waited a few years.

We thought that a church

was just going to kind of form

in our parks and in our living rooms.

And we thought it was
just going to happen

like very organically.

But because our views of the local church

were still skewed,

and because I, at the time, was still

avoiding any kind of call to the ministry.

I wanted enough to influence people,

but not enough to
assume full responsibility

for those people.

Very selfish on my part.

Very selfish and unwise.

James: What led you to stay

and plant a church instead of moving?

Justin: So around 2011, 2012

is when we hit rock bottom

because we weren't looking -

we were looking to the Bible

as something to teach per se,

to survive in our living room

with different people there,

but we weren't looking to the Bible

as far as what should a
local church look like.

What should the church look like?

What's the mission of the
church? None of that.

We hit rock bottom in the sense

that there was no biblical leadership;

there was no accountability,

no structure, no form, nothing.

There was no order.

So we hit rock bottom in our marriage,

in our friendships.

It's just that everything
was falling apart.

And so because of the influence

that Illbehonest.com
had on us at the time,

I thought I'm going to call this church

and talk to Pastor Tim

or anyone who's willing to listen.

I think Tim actually answered
the phone that day

in God's providence,

and he was the one who heard me out,

heard the situation,

and I was able to just say

we're surviving in the living room,

but things just aren't happening.

We're at our wits end

and we're seriously considering moving

to San Antonio to join the church.

And it was at that point

where I still remember
his words to this day.

He pauses and he says,

"Well, brother..." he says,

"I don't want you here if the
Lord doesn't want you here."

And at first I thought, wow, okay.

But then because I'd heard
plenty of his sermons

to know that he's real
enough to share that,

I knew that there's something
to what he's saying.

And then it was at that point

where he began to ask questions of me.

Like, so wait a minute, you're telling me

that you have several
people in your living room

which means that there's
a crowd gathered there.

You're also telling me
that you're teaching them,

regardless of whether or not you
feel called to teach right now,

the fact that you're teaching

and they're gathering
every week to listen to you,

he says, that's hopeful for me on my end

to know that; to hear that.

And so he says,

"Honestly, if you move here,

we're probably going
to end up training you

and sending you back to Las Cruces."

And so, I thought to myself,

I'd hate to move and then

who knows how long it would take

and then be sent back to Las Cruces.

So he said, "Brother, I want you to pray

about the possibility of
staying where you're at.

Here's my phone number.

Here's my Skype. Here's my email

for contact purposes.

And if you need encouragement,

I'm throwing myself out there

as just encouragement

as you go through with this.

So, that was about a 2 or 3
hour conversation, by the way.

So I'm summarizing it all right now.

But he basically put himself out there

as a help.

So we did.

We seriously prayed about it.

We - I'm talking about my wife and I.

We were ready to pack our bags and go.

But he said pray about it,

which we prayed about it.

We sought the Lord.

And in seeking the Lord,

honestly, I wanted to move.

I didn't want to stay.

And in seeking the Lord though,

I was hoping for an answer

that it's going to be clear

that you're supposed to
move to San Antonio.

But in seeking Him

and waiting upon Him,

together with my wife,

it was becoming very clear

that we were supposed to stay.

I mean, here's help being offered to us.

Here's encouragement.

Here's everything we were lacking

as far as structure

and views of the local church.

Here it is a phone call away now.

So what are we going to do with that now?

Are we going to just ignore it?

Or take the hand that's outstretched

to help us?

It was strange

because God's making it very clear.

Meanwhile, in my heart,

I'm still not wanting ministry.

I'm not wanting to engage,

because I was at a place of

hitting rock bottom

as far as my walk - I was discouraged.

We were without a church.

I just wanted to sit under a leader

and sit under teaching

because of the state of my own soul.

But here we are praying.

The Lord's making it clear.

And because the Lord made it clear,

that was enough for me to say:

I, myself, need to get my
heart right before the Lord.

Not for the sake of pastoring a church,

but because I'm a Christian.

It was at that point

where a love and a desire

to serve God's people

in faithfully bringing the
Word to them every week

began to be birthed

and to just grow and grow and grow.

That's when there was more frequent

Skype visits with Tim

and phone calls, random emails

that I'd ask him questions about.

So, yeah.

James: What difficulties have you had

in church planting?

And where there times you
just wanted to give up?

Justin: Difficulties in church planting?

I would say, for me, as one myself,

I never wanted to be one of those

self-appointed men -

I think for me,

you typically hear of
churches planting churches.

So, for me, that didn't happen with us.

We just kind of came out of the blue

and said we're going to plant a church.

And so anytime a difficulty would arise,

I'd look back at our past

and how we got started and say,

well, that's why it's not going smoothly

was because we don't have a sister church

down the road from us sending us

and helping us.

We're just starting off with no pattern.

And Tim was always faithful to remind me

that the Bible is your pattern.

The Bible is your blueprint.

The Bible is that which
you're looking for there.

And so, other difficulties are people -

people that are like me.

People that are inconsistent.

I'd say one difficulty for me

was working a full time job,

having, by God's goodness,
a growing family

of very needy children,

and needing a house,

and needing a full time job to provide.

By the end of that, a long work week,

now the thought of when
everyone's going to rest

for the weekend and leisure

and vacation and relax,

now, for me, mentally and spiritually,

now the greatest work begins.

As I'm on my way home, I'm thinking,

alright, I'm so glad it's Friday,

but then it's like,

wow, the work is beginning now.

The burden is descending.

Where are we going to be
at in the Word this week?

"Lord, what do You want to say
to Your people this week?" begins...

And so, you know, full time ministry,

also full time vocation/job,

that can be very discouraging.

That's a difficult thing.

You're feeling guilt for not being there

for the people as much as you'd like to,

so you feel in the back of your mind

that what you're doing is never enough.

Full time work, full time family,

growing family, a lack of laborers

can be discouraging,

difficult at times.

People are asking you,

why aren't we out doing this?
Why aren't we out doing that?

And you're thinking,

I'm trying to make my lunch tonight

for the workday tomorrow.

Or, I'm burned out because of work today.

So, unrealistic expectations

on the parts of yourself

or coming from others as well

can be very difficult as well.

For me, hearing of great movements

in the world

and then looking at this meager,

small work taking place,

could be kind of
discouraging at times as well.

Reading church history at times for me

was discouraging.

There's so many.

At the same time,

and I started out this way,

I didn't want to be one of those

self-appointed people, right,

that's just: I've got a gift.

People are going to have to deal with it.

And I'm just going to be the pastor here.

But I think over time,

people know.

People know if you're called.

And that's one of the ways I think

God validates those who are called

is by His church.

And so that's been helpful

in times of discouragement,

is the church in love
calling you "pastor,"

or calling you "our shepherd,"

or calling you "our leader,"

in times where you feel

completely unworthy to
serve them, you know.

James: In these first couple of years,

was there still an ongoing uncertainty

of: Am I in God's will?

Or, what happened where you had

more confidence that you knew:

I'm in the Lord's will.

Justin: I think still questioning

my own calling.

I didn't go to seminary.

I didn't have a formal
theological education.

I'm doing what I can with Sermon Audio

and Monergism audio and all that

to learn and to grow.

And so, I think the first few years,

there was a lot of discouragement

just because, again, I was questioning:

we didn't get started the typical way

another church plant gets started.

So, is God in this?

Am I called to do this?

There was just a lot of uncertainty

with my own calling.

And it wasn't until, one,

I read Spurgeon's call to the ministry

in his lectures to his students -

you know, one of the things he says

is if you can be satisfied

doing something else, he says, go do it.

And for me, there was just an unsettling

matter in may heart that I must do this.

I can't imagine myself
doing anything else.

Like Jeremiah says, there's a fire

burning up in my bones,

and if I don't do it,
I'm going to burn up

type of a thing.

So I think a few years into the work,

when I began to see people

falling in love with the Scriptures

and in love with God,

and just hating sin and fighting sin

and finding joy in God -

when you see a little bit of the fruits

that God allows you to
see of your ministry,

there's a lot of confirmation
that God's in it.

I remember a quote
that I'll always cling to

from H.B. Charles, Jr.,

who said to pastors,

he says, "Brothers, the harvest

is not at the end of your sermon.

It's at the end of the age."

And so as most preachers know,

Sunday's can be the most
discouraging day of the week

because you feel like crawling
under a rock after that.

But, in the midst of the work

of church planting -

and I don't even like to
call it church planting,

because you're seeking to fulfill

the Great Commission,

and I think the only way to do that

is within the local church

where there is evangelism,

where there is the making of disciples

but also the maturing of disciples,

and the multiplying of disciples.

And so when you see a little bit of fruit

of the labor and the joy

and the peace of God behind it all,

there's a great assurance behind it.

And I think that's when
I reached out to you

and told you that

we're even more convinced that this is

exactly what we're called to do.

Because of that - seeing God in it.

James: A question that often comes up

from people is if they should move

to be a part of a church.

What thoughts, cautions,

or encouragements would you give

to a person in a similar situation?

Justin: I would say

based on my own experience in the matter,

wanting to move because of the fact

that we didn't have a local church

that we were a part of,

is beware of false romantic views

of a church.

It's easy to see only what YouTube

is posting up about this church.

It's easy to see only what you're hearing

in the sermon regarding a church.

You're not seeing the
full life of a church

in just turning on a
sermon on Sermon Audio

or whatever the media might be.

So I think it's easy for people to have

a romantic view of a particular church.

And I know that only because

we get visitors sometimes

and they say, "You're Justin Trevino."

And I'm thinking, yeah, but...

And I can see there's a sense

of expectation there that has been kindled

on YouTube over a long period of time

or Sermon Audio for a long period of time.

And before long, they
just view you as brother.

They see you as brother.

And I think there can be a lot of false,

romantic views over the Internet, right?

And it could be that the Lord

wants to do something in your own town,

in your own city, wherever you're from.

And moving isn't always the solution.

It could be that you're sensing a need,

but you're seeing the solution in moving,

and the solution isn't
necessarily in moving,

it's in seeking the Lord

and waiting and saying,

Lord, what might You want to do here

where I'm at?

Again, because I was
burned out at the time,

just needing to be taught,

needing a biblical local church,

we were just like we've
got to get out of this city

and move on to something else.

But because I had the friendship,

the encouragement from Tim,

I thought, well, I'm going
to fall back on that

as I get my heart right,

as I get my family right

and move on with things.

I would say the main thing

is people can easily over the Internet

have a false view of a church;

an unrealistic view of a church,

where everything's romantic,

everything's perfect,

and you're only hearing the mouthpiece

in a certain church.

You're not seeing the arms.

You're not seeing the feet.

You're not seeing the body.

You're only hearing the mouth.

And that can be very,
very deceiving at times.

I would say the biggest lesson

while working a full time job

and seeking to plant a church

is that little is a lot
when God's truly in it.

The few loaves and fish that you have

to bring before God

that you think is nothing

is what often leaves people

in the congregation

shaking your hand afterwards

when you feel like
you've completely failed

in preaching.

And it's always those sermons

where you've had little sleep,

you've had little preparation time,

you've had a lot of
exhaustion over the week,

and people are thanking you

that God really spoke to them

and that they were helped.

And you're thinking,

that's only the Lord

because I've had nothing to offer

in my mind, right?

But I'd say that's one
of the biggest lessons

is that God is often pleased

to use what little we have to offer

if it's offered in faith,

and it's offered in childlike dependence

upon Him.

God is often pleased to use that

to bless His people.