Should You Give While Getting Out of Debt? - Ask Pastor Tim

Here's the first question.

"I have a question about giving.

I will use myself as an example,

but the question can
be taken more generally.

What is a good attitude to have

when it comes to giving?

When it comes to church, charity,

supporting ministry efforts,

or missions, etc.,

but you also have debt?

We are about $400 behind on the rent.

And it will take months of small,

affordable payments here and there

to pay it off while staying afloat.

I recently became a Christian..."

You see these different factors here.

You see the kind of debt -

that's something that we might want

to give consideration to.

The kind of debt.

He's a brand new Christian.

A brand new Christian is probably

going to look different

than someone who is

more of a seasoned Christian,

or walked with the Lord longer anyway.

Because you recognize as I recognize,

when I first got saved,

I had a mess of debt.

The financial situation of
lots of lost people

is just a wreck.

And then you get saved,

and oh, now you have to start

putting pieces in place.

So, "...I recently became a Christian

and acknowledged truths

like not storing up treasure on earth,

not being anxious for tomorrow,

not idolizing your money

or trusting in riches,

trusting in God as a provider, etc.

And I do not think giving is optional.

Well, as a Christian, it is something

you want to practice.

You want to be able to give.

And I think there's a text

which says God provides or increases

in order that we may be able to give more.

So with these in mind,

what is a good attitude to have

considering your debts when giving.

Should you give a small amount?

Or does that show a lack of faith in God

to provide from His own hand?

Does that show more of a self-trust?

Or should you give
as you would like to give,

as if you did have the means,

trusting in Him for your
financial situation.

Or is that a lack of wisdom

and lack of stewardship

for your wife and kids?

I've heard you say that as a church

you have tried to intend to give more

than your abilities as a matter of faith.

Is this is wise or biblical concerning

your home and family as well?

Can you shed some light on the issue?

Thanks."

So, what principles do you think?

That guy came to you

and asked you about your thoughts on this.

What are your thoughts?

I mean, the Scriptures
speak a ton about money.

And so, what do you say?

And this is real.

I have had people come to me repeatedly

who say, I'm in debt,

I want to give,

where do I draw the line?

How do I balance that?

What do I do?

What's the best approach?

Should I, one, continue to give

generously?

And trust the Lord?

Or, should I basically put my giving,

either totally on hold

or reduce it significantly

and attack this debt over here?

What is the most God honoring way?

That's really the issue here.

What is the most God honoring way?

What do you think?

Any thoughts?

(from the room)

Would it be to pay off the debt first,

and then to be freed from that debt,

so you wouldn't be

like a slave to the lender?

Tim: OK, now there's a verse coming up

right there.

A slave to the lender.

The borrower is servant or a slave

to the lender.

OK.

Now that's a reality.

You know, one of the things

that could come up in
a conversation like this

is whether debt is even permissible

to the Christian.

But, if you get saved and
you already have debt,

and you don't have the ability

to pay it off immediately,

you're obviously in a situation

that you have to deal with.

Whatever your convictions are

concerning whether a Christian ought

to get further in debt,

or whether it's permissible
for a Christian

to take out wise debt?

Or a business loan?

Or what exactly is forbidden in Scripture?

What is permitted in Scripture?

Some people would go to Romans

and basically say,

well, owe no man anything,

except love.

And so, if I'm not to owe any man anything

then I'm not supposed to borrow money.

Which Mueller basically took that approach

and interpreted that passage that way.

And I believe Hudson Taylor,

kind of following Mueller's lead,

was minded that way as well.

I honestly - although those two men

have been really significant
in my own life

as far as debt

and as far as trusting God,

I don't believe that they're exactly

dealing with that text in Romans 13

exactly right.

But, I think that you could

make a case for the fact -

I would say from a stewardship standpoint,

if I'm faced with a situation

where I can take out a mortgage

for a house,

and be actually paying for the house,

and it would cost me
just the same to rent,

but fifteen years down the road,

the house is paid for,

if I'm on a fifteen year mortgage.

And if I'm renting, I
have to go on renting.

To me, the stewardship there,

the wisdom is over here.

And the thing is,

it's not an unwise type of unsecured debt

like a student loan.

Student loans are horrible debt.

Horrible debt.

Because you've got no asset.

And so what happens if you

drop out of school

and you don't end up getting

a high paying job?

You're wracked with all this debt.

You've got nothing to show for it.

It's unsecured.

And it's just a mess.

I would never, never advise

people to take out that.

But as far as a mortgage,

you do have an asset.

You have the home.

If the bank has to foreclose,

they're able to repossess your home.

They at least have that asset

that you borrowed the money on.

And so even if you can't pay them back,

they get the house back.

You know my take -

I think loans on cars are

absolutely bad, bad stewardship.

But, anyway, that's my take.

(from the room)

So what about all the people here

who have student loans?

Tim: Well, here's the thing.

I had student loans.

I didn't need them for school.

I took them out to buy
cars and motorcycles.

But see, the thing was, I was lost.

And I think what we're doing is

we're dealing with a man here

much like many of us.

We wake up one day,

our eyes are opened,

God has saved us,

and now we look at our situation

and we recognize... Oh.

Scripture definitely has something to say

about debt.

The borrower is servant to the lender.

That doesn't necessarily mean

it's absolutely forbidden,

but that's a reality.

And that is a reality

that as long as you're in debt,

you don't have the freedom.

Why? Because you're a slave.

You don't have the freedom

that you would otherwise have.

Oh, there's nothing like
being out of debt.

Everything is paid for.

Because there's a freedom in that.

But, OK, let's say it's desirable.

But does that undo the fact

that we have consistent commandments

in Scripture to give?

Anybody throw some verses out?

Or be able to quote some passages

that have to do with giving?

One of my favorites as a young believer

was the one found in Luke 6.

Give, and it shall be given to you,

pressed down,

shaken together,

and overflowing.

Now if you think about

putting something -

you know, you put gravel

or wheat or corn or whatever -

it's the idea that you put it in a basket

and you shake it.

When you shake it, it settles.

And it's not just shaken

so that there's no air

or the least amount of air in there.

But it's actually pressed down.

It's the idea you shake it together,

you press it down,

and then you just keep filling it

until it's overflowing.

That is a promise.

So here's the thing,

if I've got a promise in Scripture

that if I give, it's going
to be given to me

in abundance -

"Shall men give into your lap."

What's that mean?

Well, it means that God is

going to give you favor with people.

Now, even though I am not one

to advocate Old Testament tithing,

because I don't think the New Testament

does that.

But I am one to advocate the principle

behind the tithing.

Remember what God said to Israel?

He said, "test Me."

Here's the thing, if I'm in debt -

because I was here.

I was here.

When I first got saved,

I had that tension between,

OK, I'm in debt,

and I want to give.

And then I got out of debt.

But then I got back into debt

with this house.

And I wanted it paid off.

We paid it off in six years.

But let me tell you,

during that six years,

Ruby and I did not reduce our giving.

And the thing was,

I remember a time when we literally

could go around our house

and say that sofa -
so-and-so gave it to us.

That end table - so-and-so gave it to us.

That thing over there -

somebody gave us that.

That lamp over there.

These lamps right here.

These plants right here.

There was a time we could

basically go around
all of our stuff -

those bookshelves over there,
that dining room table,

those chairs there...

people gave all those things to us.

Or God brought them to us some way.

We had this GE refrigerator -

Sid was just talking about the fact

that Ruby and I were the first ones

to buy a mobile home from them.

Before we lived in this house,

we bought a mobile home

from Alamo Homes.

And I remember,

I got a free refrigerator thrown in -

GE refrigerator -

That thing lasted.

We brought it here.

It lasted a long time.

It just kept going and going

and going and going and going.

The thing I'm pointing at is this,

that I don't think it's either/or.

And with all the promises that are

attached to giving,

don't let the charismatics

and the health/wealth prosperity people

dull these promises

in your own mind.

God is faithful.

And you know,

there's the one that scatters

and he all the more increases.

And there's the one that holds back

what he shouldn't hold back,

and it only tends to poverty.

I love that proverb too.

Because I lived on those things.

I lived on the promises of Isaiah 58.

You're helping people

and you're giving to people.

And I think the thing that you want to do

if you're in the place like this guy,

is you want to do both.

It's not an either/or.

You want to test God -

you don't want to be foolish.

You want to do what you do prayerfully.

You don't want to just run
out and do something

because Mueller did it.

But you know what you want to do,

you want to study
the promises of God

and you want to act in faith.

Prayerfully act in faith.

And I'm not going to say that there's one

specific way to do it.

I remember, and I've
told this story before,

but it's always stuck with me.

My pastor out at Community Baptist Church,

Pat Horner,

drove over to Houston to a conference.

He got into Houston,

his car was on E (empty),

going to this conference.

He's got $20 in his pocket.

And that's his gas money to get home.

And went he sat in this meeting,

at the end of the meeting,

they have a missionary go up

and the pastor says this brother so-and-so

is trying to get to
whatever country it was,

and they brought out one of those 5 gallon

paint buckets and they set it down there

and said can we help send this guy?

Pat just felt led.

He took the $20 out

and he threw it in there.

How was he going to get home?

You see, he did that by faith.

He did that by faith - it wasn't foolish.

He felt led of the Lord to do it.

He recognized that he wasn't

going to be able to get back.

And he said he threw the money in there,

the service is over,

and he said he was going down the aisle

of the church building

headed out the back door.

He said a man that he
had never met in his life

came up to him,

and put his hand on his

and pressed $20 into it.

And he told him,

I have no idea why I'm giving this to you.

The Lord just impressed it upon me.

And you know, when the Lord does

that kind of thing to you,

that's amazing.

You want that to happen more.

Charles Leiter tells me

about Keith McCloud.

This brother would get himself into places

where he wouldn't have gas.

And he would drive all the way home

on E (empty).

We're talking hundreds of miles on E.

And he just prayed the whole time.

So, what's that?

And Hudson Taylor,

you probably know the story

or you've heard somebody say it before,

but he had a thousand missionaries

in the China Inland Mission.

But more than that,

and he didn't have money to pay them.

Many of them had wives,

they had children.

He didn't have any money.

And one of the other missionaries

saw him in his office just whistling.

He loved that song that John Sytsma loves.

Jesus, I am resting, resting...

And he was whistling that song,

and one of the missionaries

was watching him and thought,

are you for real?

You've got all these
missionaries at your care

and no money's coming in.

He said I've got a quarter in my pocket

and all the promises of God.

You see, that's the thing.

If you've got promises that

if you scatter, you increase.

If you hold back, it tends to poverty.

Well, I can tell you which one is smart.

(incomplete thought)

It's kind of like the farmer.

You know, if the farmer

throws a lot out there,

prospect for a good harvest.

If he's really stingy in what he throws,

he just throws a couple seeds,

he just gets a couple stalks of wheat.

All because he needs to hoard it.

Gotta keep it.

But see, that's the very
principle of Scripture

that we should scatter.

Now, there's different kinds of debt.

You know, it's one thing

when I'm living in this house

and I had a 20 year mortgage

and I wanted to pay it off fast.

That's different than

he's $400 behind right now.

So, that's kind of a different situation.

He's in a position where

he owes somebody money

and it's past due.

It's one thing to have debt

where you owe people,

but you're making your payments on time.

It's another thing when you're behind.

And I would make that a real priority.

But see, I don't think that

the only things in the equation

are whether you give to the Lord

or whether you pay your debt.

The reason I'm saying that

is because there's more money in our lives

than just what we pay debt with

and what we give with.

He's got other bills.

He's got mouths to feed.

He talked about having children.

There's other things happening.

There's gasoline that's being used.

So what I would say to somebody

is all the other money,

there needs to be some real discipline.

There needs to be some real sacrifice.

You know, you can get this tension

where you're feeling like,

oh, well I've got debt over here,

but I also want to be able to give.

But I think you need to give consideration

to all the other money

that's being used in your life.

Like, if you're in that kind of situation,

you would not be going out to eat.

You would not be going to a movie.

You would not be taking a vacation.

You would not be using gas

for things that are unnecessary.

You basically have to make sacrifices.

(Incomplete thought)

Brethren, we had a family

in the church years ago

who came to our deacons

because he couldn't make

his mortgage payment.

And a week before that,

he took his wife to Dallas

for their anniversary.

See, and I don't know
what the situation is here,

but I'll tell you this,

if you're $400 behind,

I would give in very reserved fashion.

I would not give liberally

because I don't think it's right

for you to go taking a bunch of money

and putting it in the church box

when you've got somebody out there

that you owe money to.

If I was in his place,

I would give

and I would eat rice and beans.

If you've got to turn the A/C off

or put it at 82.

We're not buying clothes.

We're not buying new shoes

for the children when school starts.

None of that.

You're not doing that.

You've got to make sacrifices.

But the other thing is income.

You know, a man can work

more than one job.

My brother-in-law, I remember,

when we were starting a family,

my brother-in-law Rick had a family.

He had three jobs.

I remember it was rare that
we would see him home,

because he'd get up in the morning,

he'd go to one job,

he'd get off,

he'd go to another job,

he'd be coming in like at midnight

from the 3rd job.

Look, if you've got to work three jobs...

Work is the way out of debt.

Work is the way out
of difficulties like this.

Work and sacrifice.

You can't live like the Joneses.

Any other thoughts?

(from the room)

Do you think it would be wrong

as far as how you would define giving -

we could always think of giving

as a monetary value.

Would it be right for this guy,

like I might not be able to give

so much monetarily,

but Lord, I want to be able to give

in different ways, just to serve?

Tim: Yeah, it might be that.

It might be, you know what?

I can't really give money right now,

but I can go paint the church building.

I can go mow the lawn.

Yeah, it could be that kind of thing.

There's lots of ways to give to people.

And you know, in some societies

where the giving might be -

you hear about preachers
that get a chicken.

There are other things of value

that we may have.

It doesn't come down to just

whether I'm able to put
some bills in the box.

Brethren, I think one thing that

just needs to grip us.

You know, if you look back

at the kings of Judah.

One of them went by the name of Amaziah.

Amaziah - he was the one

who took like a hundred talents of gold,

and I believe he was going to battle

against Ben Hadad of Assyria.

And he paid a hundred talents of gold

to another king to
basically send mercenaries

to join his own forces.

And the prophet came to him and said,

What are you doing?

We have the Lord on our side.

You don't need that.

And the king had already given the money.

What do I do about

the hundred talents of gold?

What do I do about that?

And the prophet said,

what's that?

The Lord's able to give you much more

if He wants to.

There's a place in Haggai

where it says

the silver is Mine and the gold is Mine,

saith the Lord.

See, that's the thing that

we really have to recognize.

I could tell you stories

about my own family

and our finances

and the church and its finances.

And the stories that I've read

about men that really impacted me

in this area.

Just the accounts, the testimony

of God's faithfulness.

It's all the Lord's.

You have as much as you have

because the Lord has determined

for you to have exactly that much.

He could make you more wealthy

than Bill Gates,

if that was His intention.

He can do that.

He has not forgotten His people.

If you're in a situation

where you give

and you're seeking to test Him -

not presumptuously,

but faithfully - you're testing Him,

because He says, "test Me,"

because He's given these promises.

And you say, Lord,

I'm going to trust these promises.

You say that if I give,

men will give to me

into my lap.

They will give pressed
down, shaken together,

and overflowing.

I'm going to test You, Lord.

Because I want to see Your faithfulness.

I want to see You do this.

There's a joy in giving.

It's more blessed to give than to receive.

And God will cause that to be the reality.

But then, if you've given

and then you're in a place of need.

What better way to come before the Lord

and say Lord, I've given, and...

Repeatedly, I can come and say,

Lord, I need money for whatever.

Grace needs a vehicle.

Or Joshua is going to go to college.

Lord, if I'd taken the
money that I've given

and I basically - it would have

put Joshua through school

and we'd have a vehicle,

but I didn't.

I gave it, but now I'm in need.

That's the perfect place to be.

Because the Lord says

that if you're pouring yourself out

for the hungry - spiritually hungry -

you're giving.

People put money in that box.

We're supporting missionaries.
We're supporting the spread of the Gospel.

We're supporting I'll Be Honest.

We're supporting Bibles that go out.

We're supporting all manner of

different kinds of evangelistic outreaches

and tracts,

and supporting men who preach the Gospel.

That's the greater hunger.

And the promises there in Isaiah 58

is when the merciful man cries out

in need, God says, I'm going
to say to that man,

"Here I am."

See, that's what happens.

Lord, I have tried to be mindful

when other people have been in need.

And now I'm in need.

See, there's a promise in Scripture

that says God's going to say, "Here I am."

It's like when you can say,

Lord, I've got these needs now

and You said - Lord,
I've got it right here.

You said that You would take care of me

when I get into exactly
this kind of situation.

And what I have found out is He will.

Every single time.

And I've been able to say that

about our church.

Every single time.

Every single need that our church

has ever had.

If there's been a financial need,

the Lord has provided for it,

every single time.

There's no exceptions.

He's been faithful every single time.

Any other thoughts on that one?

(from the room)

Just another quick testimony.

Robert Chapman -

they were ready to leave

a conference at the train station,

but they had no money.

Chapman had been given some money

at the conference,

but then almost immediately

given it to someone who he felt

needed it more.

On the way to the railway station,

Fisher reminded Chapman

that they had no money.

Mr. Chapman replied,

"To whom does the money belong

and the cattle upon a thousand hills?"

When they reached the station,

a man on an arriving train

recognized Chapman.

He hurried over,

handed him a five pound note

and said, "I've had this in my pocket

for some time and I'm glad I met you."

He then got back on
his train which departed.

After a moment, Chapman
asked his companion,

"To whom does the money belong?"

Tim: And Hudson Taylor had

a very similar situation.

He was traveling the U.S.

He was at a train station in St. Louis.

Again, just like he was there whistling

when he's got a thousand missionaries

and nothing to pay those guys.

Here he is standing in the line

to get a ticket for the train,

and he's got no money.

And the guy ahead of
him is getting agitated.

He's feeling this conviction.

You need to buy Hudson Taylor's

train ticket.

And so they get all the way up there,

and the guy can't bear it any longer.

So he turns around,

and either he gave him the money

or he said I'm going to buy your ticket.

And then Taylor tells him

I didn't have any money.

And the guy was actually
frustrated with him.

What? You just stood there in this line?

And you didn't say anything?

That just proved the point.

I don't have to say anything.

Because God knows.

Christina - have we not heard

the report that came there from China?

She didn't have the money for rent

and a lost - listen -

the Chinese - I'm not saying
Americans are much better,

but different countries kind of

have their different sins.

But if there's something
that the Chinese are,

they are cold; they are heartless.

They are not a merciful people.

And here is this lost neighbor

who comes and gives Christina

a large sum of money,

and the exact amount that was needed

to pay the rent that she couldn't pay.

That's the kind of thing that happens.

I remember reading the story

about a widow,

and she didn't have any food,

and she lived in an apartment complex,

and some really wicked man

came and left - he felt prompted -

and he left a bag of groceries there.

He could hear the woman,

either through the wall

or through the window

praising the Lord.

And he couldn't bear that

and he had to tell her

that God didn't bring you those groceries.

I brought you those groceries.

And she said, "Oh no,

the Lord brought those to me

even if he has to use the devil to do it."

(incomplete thought)

But you don't need to know

the means by which it will come.

You can exhaust your own thinking

and your own resources,

and you can rule out -

well, it's not going to happen this way;

it's not going to happen that way.

I've told this story before,

but I got to a certain place

where we had gotten into some degree

of debt over a vehicle that we bought.

And I did in the past

what I would not recommend anybody do now

with regards to a vehicle.

There was a reason I did it,

because I had like $3,500 on a GM card

and it was probably the

worst automobile mistake
I made in my life.

But I got into some debt over that van,

and then Ruby had started

her cheesecake business.

And I just asked the Lord,

Lord, would You please allow us

to be out of debt by the end of the year?

And suddenly, anonymous checks

for $1500, $2000 started showing up

in the mail.

And we were going to my mom's at Christmas

and I got almost all the debt paid off,

except for about $1500.

We're going to be heading out of town,

so I won't be able to
check the mail anymore.

And I thought,

Ruby, I just want to
check the church mail.

All the checks up to that time

had come to my home.

I thought, let's just
check the church mail

because we're going to be out of town

for two weeks - to make sure

there's not a backlog in the P.O. box.

And there was a letter for me.

And it perfectly paid off

and got me out of debt.

And then I started thinking,

you know if those checks keep coming,

now that I'm out of debt,

they never kept coming.

It was all over.

Nobody else knew.

Nobody human knew

that I had asked the Lord -

and every time one of those would come in,

I remember putting them out

on the dining room table

and calling all the children around.

Children, look.

Daddy prayed and look what the Lord did.

OK.

Any other thoughts?