Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories
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Not Synced[Music]
Intro: The Guardian -
Not SyncedWelcome to Science weekly.
-
Not SyncedWe're following the Covid-19 outbreak and
-
Not Syncedexploring some of the scientific questions
that have come out of it. -
Not SyncedIn today's episode, we are looking
at conspiracy theories: -
Not Synced>> Now, many people are getting
their information about coronavirus -
Not Syncedthrough social media.
-
Not SyncedBut not everything that's shared online
can be trusted. -
Not Synced>> 5G messed on fire >> **** the 5G!
>> Yeah! -
Not Synced>> It lowers your immunity
and runs people down! -
Not Synced>> The corona virus pandemic is opening
weird new horizons -
Not Syncedfor online conspiracy theorists.
-
Not Synced>> The virus was bio-engineered in a lab
by scientists, to be used as a weapon -
Not Syncedor a form of population control.
-
Not Synced>> Hi guys, do you know
what you're doing now? -
Not SyncedYou're laying 5G. >> Yes.
>> So you know that kills people? -
Not SyncedIt absorbs oxygen.
>> That's just nonsense! -
Not SyncedDangerous nonsense as well.
-
Not Synced>> 5G was a favorite target
of conspiracy theorists, -
Not Syncedlong before the new corona virus appeared.
-
Not SyncedNow the myths have just been tweaked a
bit. -
Not Synced>> It's not merely an opinion
or an interesting conspiracy, -
Not SyncedIt's just bollocks.
-
Not Synced>> So what is it about conspiracy theories
that makes them so appealing -
Not Syncedin a time of crisis?
-
Not SyncedAnd how can we best combat them?
-
Not SyncedI'm Ian Sample, the science editor
of The Guardian -
Not Syncedand this is Science Weekly.
-
Not Synced>> I'm Dr Daniel Jolley.
-
Not SyncedI'm a senior lecturer in psychology
based at Northumberland University -
Not SyncedIn Newcastle in the UK and my expertise is
in the psychology of conspiracy theories. -
Not Synced(IS) Hi Dan, how are you doing?
-
Not Synced(DJ) I'm doing very well,
thanks so much for having me here. -
Not Synced(IS) So Dan, let's start with the basics:
-
Not Syncedwhat is a conspiracy theory,
as opposed to misinformation, say? -
Not Synced(DJ) So the whole difference
with a conspiracy theory is the idea -
Not Syncedthat there is a powerful group plotting
something secret for their own gain, -
Not SyncedSo something can just be fake, that
there is no hidden motive behind it. -
Not SyncedI mean there is a cardinal difference:
-
Not Syncedit's pointing the finger
at a group of people -
Not Syncedand blaming them for their wrongdoings:
blaming them for the virus, for example. -
Not Synced(IS) What is it about conspiracy theories,
generally, -
Not Syncedthat makes them so appealing to us?
-
Not Synced(DJ) Well, conspiracy theories in general
have been shown to arise -
Not Syncedin moments of crisis, when we have the
need to fill in control, to feel certain. -
Not SyncedAnd the need kind of rapid crises
we feel threatened, -
Not Syncedwe feel unsure what is happening,
-
Not Syncedwhich is exactly what is happening
with Covid-19 -
Not Synced(IS) I always thought that believing
in conspiracy theories -
Not Syncedwould make people feel more anxious,
but it sounds like, actually, -
Not Syncedthey have the opposite effect.
-
Not Synced(DJ) Well, it's a really interesting
point there. -
Not SyncedPeople who have this need to feel
in control, -
Not Syncedthe influence on them may actually
just be quite temporal. -
Not SyncedThey may seem appealing,
but they're not satisfying. -
Not SyncedCovid has shown that people who are
exposed to conspiracy theories -
Not Syncedactually have further mistrust
of those around them. -
Not SyncedIt actually increases their feeling
of anxiety. -
Not SyncedOften it is because if you don't subscribe
to one conspiracy belief, -
Not Syncedyou then start questioning other things,
-
Not Syncedwhich means its kind of ramping up
your mistrust, -
Not Syncedand you kind of feel a feeling of
uncertainty of you living in your society. -
Not SyncedSo when they emerge in times of crisis,
they may temporarily -
Not Syncedmake us feel more secure
but that will not be long-lasting. -
Not Synced(IS) This must be
a bit of a boom time for you, -
Not Syncedas someone who studies conspiracy theories
I mean, we've seen, you know, -
Not Synceda bunch of them around recently,
from 5G masts, -
Not Syncedman-made viruses coming out of
Chinese labs, I mean, -
Not Syncedwhat is it about a pandemic
that seems to drive so many? -
Not Synced(DJ) Covid-19 is not unique in regards to
having conspiracy theories bloom about it. -
Not SyncedThinking back to zika, 2015,
-
Not Syncedthere were conspiracy theories suggesting
zika was a man-made weapon. -
Not Synced>> Zika is a mosquito-transmitted virus
that has lead to travel warnings -
Not Syncedin South America and Caribbean countries.
-
Not Synced>> Is zika caused by
genetically modified mosquitoes? -
Not SyncedWe're fact-checking this conspiracy theory
making the rounds on Facebook. -
Not Synced(DJ) It's fair that the conspiracy now to
emerge, -
Not Syncedwhen people are talking about extreme
uncertainty. -
Not SyncedSo when they felt uncertain, they now (??)
conspiracy theories was more blooming. -
Not SyncedAnd the same thing is happening with
COVID-19. -
Not Synced>> The Trump administration has repeatedly
pushed the narrative that the Coronavirus -
Not Syncedmay have escaped from a Chinese laboratory
in Wuhan, rather than originating with an -
Not Syncedanimal in a seafood market in Wuhan, which
is the leading medical theory. -
Not Synced(DJ) Because the world is definitely chaotic,
and it offers some kind of tangible, -
Not Syncedpersonal group to blame for what is
happening. -
Not Synced(IS) It sounds like, then, that it's
pretty typical to see conspiracy theories -
Not Syncedspring up around any big event.
-
Not SyncedDo you think we're just seeing more now,
or we're aware of more now, because -
Not Syncedthey're spreading through social media?
-
Not Synced(DJ) There's no hard data that
demonstrates that today with the -
Not Syncedinternet, conspiracy theories are more
popular. So it may just be us assuming -
Not Syncedthey are. I think it's important, though,
to really look into this, and to see the -
Not Syncedperil that social media can have. Thinking
about the 5g conspiracy, it seemed to -
Not Syncedemerge from social media, where the
algorithms and Facebook picked up chatter -
Not Syncedwith regards to 5g, and brought it into
the trending. And then, during videos -
Not Syncedpeople in the comments were talking about
the masks and how one way to stop COVID is -
Not Syncedby the masks and pulling them down, etc.
So that's something that's potentially -
Not Syncedquite novel in that that fast interaction
may have actually sped up the kind of -
Not Syncedinsurgence of the conspiracy.
-
Not Synced(DJ) It's a real interesting problem with
regards to Facebook, and social media in -
Not Syncedgeneral, and how they deal with conspiracy
theories, because someone's conspiracy -
Not Syncedtheory is someone's truth, in essence. So
it's how do we define what a conspiracy -
Not Syncedtheory is. And indeed, by banning, for
example, conspiracy theories on platforms -
Not Syncedwill just reaffirm the suspicions that
people have, that they're trying to hide -
Not Syncedsomething, so you may actually increase
people's conspiracy theorizing, because -
Not Syncedthey are being silenced. So it's that
balance of insuring there's a space and a -
Not Syncedplatform for people to have free speech,
to be able to discuss issues, and to, you -
Not Syncedknow, question things, which I think is
important that we question, but then the -
Not Syncedbalance comes by that things aren't made
into the trending pages that are not based -
Not Syncedon truth. So right now, Facebook and etc.,
are taking down content that they see to -
Not Syncedbe inciting violence, and that can
actually be a hinder to curbing COVID-19, -
Not Syncedwhich is think is a positive first step,
but it's not going to fix the issue as a -
Not Syncedbroad issue in the future. So maybe,
thinking about the individual as well, -
Not Syncedand insuring the individual has the skill
sets to really ask the questions, but also -
Not Syncedevaluate the evidence. So we know those
people who lack critical thinking -
Not Syncedabilities are more likely to believe in
conspiracy theories, and we also know that -
Not Syncedpeople in believe in conspiracies is
because they want to understand their -
Not Syncedworld, but they're struggling to evaluate
the evidence. So potentially us trying to -
Not Syncedinstill those skill sets may mean that
they're able to resist the conspiracy -
Not Syncednarrative.
-
Not Synced(IS) Let's talk a bit more about the
psychology of people who believe in -
Not Syncedconspiracy theories or tend to believe in
them, are there characteristics or -
Not Syncedpersonality traits that make people maybe
more susceptible to these kinds of -
Not Syncedtheories than others?
-
Not Synced(DJ) There are a range of different needs
that are met by conspiracy theories, -
Not Syncedwhile there's also kind of a social
element whereby we want to affirm -
Not Syncedourselves and also the groups that we
belong in, and interestingly, research in -
Not SyncedAmerica has found that in regards to
politics, the conspiracy theories switch -
Not Synceddepending on who is in power. So it's very
much a (??) in play here, where you're -
Not Syncedjust affirming your identity. The others,
those are the ones who are conspiring, -
Not Syncedand that can change depending on the
context. -
Not Synced(IS) It sounds like some other sort of
traits might come into play as well around -
Not Syncedhow people see themselves, their social
self-image, but also where the people have -
Not Syncedbeen sort of marginalized in the past.
-
Not Synced(DJ) Absolutely. So, research has found
that being a narcissist is more predictive -
Not Syncedof you believing in conspiracy theories,
and also, it has been shown that people -
Not Syncedwho are from disadvantaged groups, because
if you have received discrimination in the -
Not Syncedpast, you may be more likely to percieve
that people are out to get you. Because, -
Not Syncedonce upon a time, maybe they were. So
prior experiences may also play a role in -
Not Syncedmaking you more susceptible. And then,
when you're in an environment that -
Not Syncedincreases your uncertainty, increases your
threat, like COVID-19, you may be more -
Not Syncedsusceptible to subscribe to these
conspiracy theories. And indeed, a -
Not Syncedconsistent finding in the literature is
that if you believe in one conspiracy, you -
Not Syncedbelieve in many others. Also,
interestingly research has described that -
Not Syncedyou can believe in mutually exclusive
conspiracy theories, because it's all -
Not Syncedbased around this world view that (??)
conspiracy theories in the world, so that -
Not Syncedmeans that someone may believe that the
virus was human-made, but also believing -
Not Syncedit is caused by 5g. Whilst these two
things can't necessarily happen at the -
Not Syncedsame time, it's in this process if you
feel distrust, of society, of people who -
Not Syncedwe see to be in power, you can subscribe
to these ideas. -
Not Synced(IS) When I've seen conspiracy theorists
talking about their beliefs, it's clear -
Not Syncedthat there's a real urge to pull together
strands of evidence, and to collect -
Not Syncedevidence, and say, pull together these
sort of desperate things, and many of them -
Not Syncedseem to see themselves as like, the real
critical thinkers, but I'm wondering what -
Not Syncedkind of biases are coming into play there,
that are actually within those people, to -
Not Syncedmake them believe these kinds of theories.
-
Not Synced(DJ) One of the biases is confirmation
bias, that we're all susceptible to. -
Not SyncedThis is the idea that we only really
listen to evidence that supports our prior -
Not Syncedbeliefs. Things that go against it, that
discredit our beliefs, we ignore. -
Not SyncedThere's also biases based around
personality bias, with COVID-19, it's such -
Not Synceda large event, worldwide, to explain this
as something from animals doesn't really -
Not Syncedmake sense. But to explain this as a
conspiracy where it was human-made, -
Not Syncedthe proportionality matches the cause,
it all kind of fits together. -
Not SyncedSo, we can, in situations where these
events arise, be more drawn to conspiracy -
Not Syncednarratives. We then stay in our echo
chambers in our online world. -
Not Synced(IS) It can be tough debating and arguing
with people who believe in conspiracy -
Not Syncedtheories, and okay, some of them are
harmless, but some of them really aren't. -
Not SyncedI mean, as someone who really studies
them, do you have a sense of how best -
Not Syncedwe can combat them, the ones that are
dangerous? -
Not Synced(DJ) Interventions are really challenging,
but of course, as you say, they're really -
Not Syncedimportant, so potentially targeting the
general population, and targeting those -
Not Syncedwho are hardened conspiracy theorists,
may be slightly different. -
Not SyncedSo for example, we know that using (??)
arguments, giving people facts, can reduce -
Not Syncedbelief in conspiracy theories. But, if you
harbor a conspiracy belief, and you see -
Not Syncedsome kind of material from the government,
you are going to discredit that, because -
Not Syncedof your confirmation bias. So indeed, for
others, it may be having people become -
Not Syncedtrusted messengers, where you're not
aggressive, but instead, talk to them -
Not Syncedabout their beliefs, get them to really
kind of think hard about the evidence -
Not Syncedthat they are, you know, really kind of
suggesting is the be and end all, and -
Not Syncedthat maybe that kind of thinking process
and get them to re-evaluate may start -
Not Syncedchanging their beliefs. Of course, this
I'm sure would work for the general -
Not Syncedpopulation as well, so I think with
ensuring that the landscape on Twitter, on -
Not SyncedFacebook is full of facts is really
important, but then still acknowledging -
Not Syncedthat those who are on the hardened end
of the conspiracy theorizing may distrust -
Not Syncedthat straight away. So it's definitely a
challenge, but I think it's important to -
Not Syncedreally evaluate.
-
Not Synced(IS) Dan, finally, how do you think you
fair in all of this? I mean, do you feel -
Not Syncedyou're immune to conspiracy theories that
you can tell pretty much on contact -
Not Syncedwhether something's real or BS?
-
Not Synced(DJ) It's really difficult to tell the
truth from the untruthful, from the fake -
Not Syncednews, but the conspiracy's always based
around pointing the finger at those in -
Not Syncedauthority, and suggesting that they are
conspiring. I try and have trust in the -
Not Syncedgatekeepers, where I also trust the
journalists, who ask the questions, and -
Not Syncedthe conspiracy theories that have been
proven to be true, have always been driven -
Not Syncedby journalism. So, having the trust in our
society that if a conspiracy is occuring, -
Not Syncedit will come out by these natural
processes. -
Not Synced(IS) Wonderful stuff. Dan, thank you so
much for joining us. -
Not Synced(DJ) Pleasure, thank you so much.
-
Not Synced(IS) Thanks to Dan for joining me this
week. As we continue to follow the -
Not SyncedCOVID-19 outbreak, we'd love to keep
hearing your questions. You can send them -
Not Syncedin via the form we've set up, just head
over to theguardian.com/covid19questions, -
Not Syncedthat's all one word.
And also thank those who support -
Not Syncedas listeners.
-
Not SyncedIn times like this, trusted news is more
important than ever, and here at the -
Not SyncedGuardian we are 100% committed to
accurate and reliable news, but in order -
Not Syncedto help us do that, we need your support.
To find out more, please go to -
Not Syncedtheguardian.com/supportpodcast, again
all one word. -
Not SyncedLook after yourselves and stay well,
see you back here soon. -
Not Synced[Outro]
For more great podcasts from the Guardian, -
Not Syncedjust go to theguardian.com/podcasts.
- Title:
- Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories
- Description:
-
Guardian Podcast
Science Weekly -Psychology
Presented by Ian Sample and produced by David Waters and Madeleine Finlay
Tue 5 May 2020 05.00 BST
https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2020/may/05/covid-19-the-psychology-of-conspiracy-theories - Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- Captions Requested
- Duration:
- 15:09
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Jen Prince edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Niveditha Hari edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories | ||
Niveditha Hari edited English subtitles for Covid-19: the psychology of conspiracy theories |