How jails extort the poor
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0:01 - 0:03One summer afternoon in 2013,
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0:03 - 0:06DC police detained, questioned
and searched a man -
0:06 - 0:10who appeared suspicious
and potentially dangerous. -
0:10 - 0:14This wasn't what I was wearing
the day of the detention, to be fair, -
0:14 - 0:16but I have a picture of that as well.
-
0:16 - 0:18I know it's very frightening --
try to remain calm. -
0:18 - 0:19(Laughter)
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0:19 - 0:22At this time, I was interning
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0:22 - 0:25at the Public Defender Service
in Washington DC, -
0:25 - 0:27and I was visiting
a police station for work. -
0:27 - 0:28I was on my way out,
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0:28 - 0:30and before I could make it to my car,
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0:30 - 0:33two police cars pulled up
to block my exit, -
0:33 - 0:35and an officer approached me from behind.
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0:35 - 0:37He told me to stop, take my backpack off
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0:37 - 0:40and put my hands on the police car
parked next to us. -
0:41 - 0:44About a dozen officers
then gathered near us. -
0:44 - 0:45All of them had handguns,
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0:45 - 0:46some had assault rifles.
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0:46 - 0:48They rifled through my backpack.
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0:48 - 0:50They patted me down.
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0:50 - 0:52They took pictures of me
spread on the police car, -
0:52 - 0:53and they laughed.
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0:53 - 0:55And as all this was happening --
-
0:55 - 0:58as I was on the police car trying
to ignore the shaking in my legs, -
0:58 - 1:00trying to think clearly
about what I should do -- -
1:00 - 1:02something stuck out to me as odd.
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1:02 - 1:04When I look at myself in this photo,
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1:04 - 1:06if I were to describe myself,
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1:06 - 1:08I think I'd say something like,
-
1:08 - 1:14"19-year-old Indian male,
bright T-shirt, wearing glasses." -
1:14 - 1:16But they weren't including
any of these details. -
1:16 - 1:18Into their police radios
as they described me, -
1:18 - 1:21they kept saying, "Middle Eastern
male with a backpack. -
1:21 - 1:23Middle Eastern male with a backpack."
-
1:23 - 1:26And this description carried on
into their police reports. -
1:26 - 1:31I never expected to be described
by my own government in these terms: -
1:31 - 1:32"lurking,"
-
1:33 - 1:35"nefarious,"
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1:36 - 1:37"terrorist."
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1:37 - 1:39And the detention dragged on like this.
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1:39 - 1:43They sent dogs trained to smell explosives
to sweep the area I'd been in. -
1:43 - 1:46They called the federal government
to see if I was on any watch lists. -
1:46 - 1:49They sent a couple of detectives
to cross-examine me on why, -
1:49 - 1:51if I claimed I had nothing to hide,
-
1:51 - 1:53I wouldn't consent to a search of my car.
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1:53 - 1:55And I could see
they weren't happy with me, -
1:56 - 1:59but I felt I had no way of knowing
what they'd want to do next. -
1:59 - 2:02At one point, the officer
who patted me down -
2:02 - 2:05scanned the side of the police station
to see where the security camera was -
2:05 - 2:08to see how much of this
was being recorded. -
2:08 - 2:09And when he did that,
-
2:09 - 2:13it really sank in how completely
I was at their mercy. -
2:13 - 2:15I think we're all normalized
from a young age -
2:15 - 2:19to the idea of police officers
and arrests and handcuffs, -
2:19 - 2:23so it's easy to forget how demeaning
and coercive a thing it is -
2:23 - 2:26to seize control over
another person's body. -
2:26 - 2:28I know it sounds like
the point of my story -
2:28 - 2:30is how badly treated I was
because of my race -- -
2:30 - 2:33and yes, I don't think I would've been
detained if I were white. -
2:33 - 2:36But actually, what I have in mind
today is something else. -
2:36 - 2:39What I have in mind is how
much worse things might've been -
2:39 - 2:40if I weren't affluent.
-
2:40 - 2:43I mean, they thought I might be trying
to plant an explosive, -
2:43 - 2:46and they investigated that possibility
for an hour and a half, -
2:46 - 2:48but I was never put in handcuffs,
-
2:48 - 2:50I was never taken to a jail cell.
-
2:50 - 2:54I think if I were from one of Washington
DC's poor communities of color, -
2:54 - 2:57and they thought I was
endangering officers' lives, -
2:57 - 2:58things might've ended differently.
-
2:58 - 3:02And in fact, in our system, I think
it's better to be an affluent person -
3:02 - 3:04suspected of trying
to blow up a police station -
3:04 - 3:06than it is to be a poor person
-
3:06 - 3:08who's suspected of much,
much less than this. -
3:08 - 3:11I want to give you an example
from my current work. -
3:11 - 3:15Right now, I'm working
at a civil rights organization in DC, -
3:15 - 3:17called Equal Justice Under Law.
-
3:17 - 3:20Let me start by asking you all a question.
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3:20 - 3:23How many of you have ever gotten
a parking ticket in your life? -
3:23 - 3:24Raise your hand.
-
3:24 - 3:26Yeah. So have I.
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3:26 - 3:27And when I had to pay it,
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3:27 - 3:29it felt annoying and it felt bad,
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3:29 - 3:31but I paid it and I moved on.
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3:31 - 3:34I'm guessing most of you
have paid your tickets as well. -
3:35 - 3:39But what would happen if you
couldn't afford the amount on the ticket -
3:39 - 3:42and your family doesn't have
the money either, what happens then? -
3:42 - 3:45Well, one thing that's not supposed
to happen under the law is, -
3:45 - 3:47you're not supposed to be
arrested and jailed -
3:47 - 3:49simply because you can't afford to pay.
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3:49 - 3:51That's illegal under federal law.
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3:51 - 3:54But that's what local governments
across the country are doing -
3:54 - 3:55to people who are poor.
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3:55 - 3:58And so many of our lawsuits
at Equal Justice Under Law -
3:58 - 4:01target these modern-day debtors' prisons.
-
4:02 - 4:04One of our cases is against
Ferguson, Missouri. -
4:05 - 4:06And I know when I say Ferguson,
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4:06 - 4:08many of you will think of police violence.
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4:08 - 4:11But today I want to talk
about a different aspect -
4:11 - 4:14of the relationship between
their police force and their citizens. -
4:14 - 4:18Ferguson was issuing an average
of over two arrest warrants, -
4:18 - 4:20per person, per year,
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4:20 - 4:22mostly for unpaid debt to the courts.
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4:23 - 4:27When I imagine what that would feel like
if, every time I left my house, -
4:27 - 4:30there was a chance a police officer
would run my license plate, -
4:30 - 4:32see a warrant for unpaid debt,
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4:32 - 4:34seize my body they way the did in DC
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4:34 - 4:36and then take me to a jail cell,
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4:36 - 4:38I feel a little sick.
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4:39 - 4:42I've met many of the people in Ferguson
who have experienced this, -
4:42 - 4:44and I've heard some of their stories.
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4:44 - 4:45In Ferguson's jail,
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4:45 - 4:48in each small cell,
there's a bunk bed and a toilet, -
4:48 - 4:51but they'd pack four people
into each cell. -
4:51 - 4:54So there'd be two people on the bunks
and two people on the floor, -
4:54 - 4:57one with nowhere to go except
right next to the filthy toilet, -
4:57 - 4:58which was never cleaned.
-
4:58 - 5:00In fact, the whole cell was never cleaned,
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5:00 - 5:04so the floor and the walls were lined
with blood and mucus. -
5:04 - 5:05No water to drink,
-
5:05 - 5:08except coming out of a spigot
connected to the toilet. -
5:08 - 5:10The water looked and tasted dirty,
-
5:10 - 5:11there was never enough food,
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5:11 - 5:13never any showers,
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5:13 - 5:16women menstruating
without any hygiene products, -
5:16 - 5:17no medical attention whatsoever.
-
5:17 - 5:20When I asked a woman
about medical attention, -
5:20 - 5:22she laughed, and she said, "Oh, no, no.
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5:22 - 5:25The only attention you get
from the guards in there is sexual." -
5:26 - 5:29So, they'd take the debtors
to this place and they'd say, -
5:29 - 5:32"We're not letting you leave
until you make a payment on your debt." -
5:32 - 5:35And if you could -- if you
could call a family member -
5:35 - 5:37who could somehow come up with some money,
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5:37 - 5:38then maybe you were out.
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5:38 - 5:41If it was enough money, you were out.
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5:41 - 5:44But if it wasn't, you'd stay there
for days or weeks, -
5:44 - 5:47and every day the guards
would come down to the cells -
5:47 - 5:50and haggle with the debtors
about the price of release that day. -
5:51 - 5:55You'd stay until, at some point,
the jail would be booked to capacity, -
5:55 - 5:57and they'd want to book someone new in.
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5:57 - 5:58And at that point, they'd think,
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5:58 - 6:01"OK, it's unlikely this person
can come up with the money, -
6:01 - 6:03it's more likely this new person will."
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6:03 - 6:06You're out, they're in,
and the machine kept moving like that. -
6:06 - 6:08I met a man who,
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6:08 - 6:12nine years ago, was arrested
for panhandling in a Walgreens. -
6:12 - 6:16He couldn't afford his fines
and his court fees from that case. -
6:16 - 6:19When he was young
he survived a house fire, -
6:19 - 6:22only because he jumped out
of the third-story window to escape. -
6:22 - 6:25But that fall left him
with damage to his brain -
6:25 - 6:27and several parts of this body,
including his leg. -
6:27 - 6:28So he can't work,
-
6:28 - 6:31and he relies on social security
payments to survive. -
6:31 - 6:33When I met him in his apartment,
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6:33 - 6:35he had nothing of value there --
not even food in his fridge. -
6:35 - 6:37He's chronically hungry.
-
6:37 - 6:40He had nothing of value in his apartment
except a small piece of cardboard -
6:40 - 6:42on which he'd written
the names of his children. -
6:42 - 6:45He cherished this a lot.
He was happy to show it to me. -
6:45 - 6:48But he can't pay his fines and fees
because he has nothing to give. -
6:48 - 6:52In the last nine years,
he's been arrested 13 times, -
6:52 - 6:56and jailed for a total of 130 days
on that panhandling case. -
6:57 - 7:00One of those stretches lasted 45 days.
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7:00 - 7:04Just imagine spending from right now
until sometime in June -
7:04 - 7:07in the place that I described to you
a few moments ago. -
7:09 - 7:13He told me about all the suicide attempts
he's seen in Ferguson's jail; -
7:13 - 7:15about the time a man found
a way to hang himself -
7:15 - 7:17out of reach of the other inmates,
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7:17 - 7:20so all they could do
was yell and yell and yell, -
7:20 - 7:22trying to get the guards' attention
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7:22 - 7:24so they could come down and cut him down.
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7:24 - 7:27And he told me that it took the guards
over five minutes to respond, -
7:27 - 7:29and when they came,
the man was unconscious. -
7:29 - 7:33So they called the paramedics
and the paramedics went to the cell. -
7:33 - 7:34They said, "He'll be OK,"
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7:34 - 7:36so they just left him there on the floor.
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7:36 - 7:39I heard many stories like this
and they shouldn't have surprised me, -
7:40 - 7:43because suicide is the single leading
cause of death in our local jails. -
7:44 - 7:47This is related to the lack
of mental health care in our jails. -
7:47 - 7:51I met a woman, single mother of three,
making seven dollars an hour. -
7:51 - 7:54She relies on food stamps
to feed herself and her children. -
7:54 - 7:56About a decade ago,
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7:56 - 7:59she got a couple of traffic tickets
and a minor theft charge, -
7:59 - 8:02and she can't afford her fines
and fees on those cases. -
8:03 - 8:06Since then, she's been jailed
about 10 times on those cases, -
8:06 - 8:09but she has schizophrenia
and bipolar disorder, -
8:09 - 8:11and she needs medication every day.
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8:11 - 8:14She doesn't have access
to those medications in Ferguson's jail, -
8:14 - 8:16because no one has access
to their medications. -
8:16 - 8:20She told me about what it was like
to spend two weeks in a cage, -
8:20 - 8:24hallucinating people and shadows
and hearing voices, -
8:24 - 8:26begging for the medication
that would make it all stop, -
8:26 - 8:28only to be ignored.
-
8:28 - 8:30And this isn't anomalous, either:
-
8:30 - 8:34thirty percent of women in our local jails
have serious mental health needs -
8:34 - 8:35just like hers,
-
8:35 - 8:39but only one in six receives
any mental health care while in jail. -
8:40 - 8:43And so, I heard all these stories
about this grotesque dungeon -
8:43 - 8:46that Ferguson was operating
for its debtors, -
8:46 - 8:48and when it came time
for me to actually see it -
8:48 - 8:50and to go visit Ferguson's jail,
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8:50 - 8:52I'm not sure what I was expecting to see,
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8:52 - 8:54but I wasn't expecting this.
-
8:54 - 8:56It's an ordinary government building.
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8:56 - 8:59It could be a post office or a school.
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8:59 - 9:03It reminded me that these illegal
extortion schemes -
9:03 - 9:05aren't being run somewhere in the shadows,
-
9:05 - 9:07they're being run out in the open
by our public officials. -
9:07 - 9:09They're a matter of public policy.
-
9:09 - 9:12And this reminded me
that poverty jailing in general, -
9:12 - 9:14even outside the debtors' prison context,
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9:14 - 9:17plays a very visible and central role
in our justice system. -
9:18 - 9:20What I have in mind is our policy of bail.
-
9:20 - 9:23In our system, whether
you're detained or free, -
9:23 - 9:26pending trial is not a matter
of how dangerous you are -
9:26 - 9:28or how much of a flight risk you pose.
-
9:28 - 9:31It's a matter of whether you can afford
to post your bail amount. -
9:31 - 9:34So Bill Cosby, whose bail
was set at a million dollars, -
9:34 - 9:37immediately writes the check,
and doesn't spend a second in a jail cell. -
9:37 - 9:39But Sandra Bland, who died in jail,
-
9:39 - 9:43was only there because her family
was unable to come up with 500 dollars. -
9:43 - 9:47In fact, there are half a million
Sandra Blands across the country -- -
9:47 - 9:49500,000 people who are in jail right now,
-
9:49 - 9:52only because they can't afford
their bail amount. -
9:52 - 9:55We're told that our jails
are places for criminals, -
9:55 - 9:57but statistically that's not the case:
-
9:57 - 10:01three out of every five people
in jail right now are there pretrial. -
10:01 - 10:03They haven't been convicted of any crime;
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10:03 - 10:06they haven't pled guilty to any offense.
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10:06 - 10:08Right here in San Francisco,
-
10:08 - 10:1185 percent of the inmates
in our jail in San Francisco -
10:11 - 10:13are pretrial detainees.
-
10:13 - 10:16This means San Francisco is spending
something like 80 million dollars -
10:16 - 10:17every year
-
10:18 - 10:19to fund pretrial detention.
-
10:21 - 10:26Many of these people who are in jail
only because they can't post bail -
10:26 - 10:28are facing allegations so minor
-
10:28 - 10:31that the amount of time it would take
for them to sit waiting for trial -
10:31 - 10:34is longer than the sentence
they would receive if convicted, -
10:34 - 10:37which means they're guaranteed
to get out faster -
10:37 - 10:38if they just plead guilty.
-
10:38 - 10:40So now the choice is:
-
10:40 - 10:42Should I stay here in this horrible place,
-
10:43 - 10:45away from my family and my dependents,
-
10:45 - 10:47almost guaranteed to lose my job,
-
10:47 - 10:49and then fight the charges?
-
10:49 - 10:52Or should I just plead guilty to whatever
the prosecutor wants and get out? -
10:52 - 10:55And at this point, they're pretrial
detainees, not criminals. -
10:55 - 10:58But once they take that plea deal,
we'll call them criminals, -
10:58 - 11:02even though an affluent person
would never have been in this situation, -
11:02 - 11:05because an affluent person
would have simply been bailed out. -
11:05 - 11:07At this point you might be wondering,
-
11:07 - 11:09"This guy's in the inspiration section,
what is he doing -- -
11:09 - 11:11(Laughter)
-
11:11 - 11:13"This is extremely depressing.
I want my money back." -
11:14 - 11:15(Laughter)
-
11:15 - 11:17But in actuality,
-
11:17 - 11:22I find talking about jailing much less
depressing than the alternative, -
11:22 - 11:24because I think if we don't talk
about these issues -
11:24 - 11:26and collectively change
how we think about jailing, -
11:26 - 11:28at the end of all of our lives,
-
11:28 - 11:31we'll still have jails full of poor people
who don't belong there. -
11:31 - 11:33That really is depressing to me.
-
11:33 - 11:36But what's exciting to me is the thought
that these stories can move us -
11:36 - 11:38to think about jailing in different terms.
-
11:38 - 11:42Not in sterile policy terms
like "mass incarceration," -
11:42 - 11:44or "sentencing of nonviolent offenders,"
-
11:44 - 11:45but in human terms.
-
11:45 - 11:49When we put a human being in a cage
for days or weeks or months -
11:49 - 11:51or even years,
-
11:51 - 11:53what are we doing
to that person's mind and body? -
11:53 - 11:56Under what conditions
are we really willing to do that? -
11:57 - 11:59And so if starting with a few
hundred of us in this room, -
11:59 - 12:02we can commit to thinking about
jailing in this different light, -
12:02 - 12:06then we can undo that normalization
I was referring to earlier. -
12:06 - 12:09If I leave you with anything today,
I hope it's with the thought -
12:09 - 12:11that if we want anything
to fundamentally change -- -
12:11 - 12:15not just to reform our policies
on bail and fines and fees -- -
12:15 - 12:18but also to make sure that whatever
new policies replace those -
12:18 - 12:21don't punish the poor and the marginalized
in their own new way. -
12:21 - 12:23If we want that kind of change,
-
12:23 - 12:25then this shift in thinking
is required of each of us. -
12:25 - 12:26Thank you.
-
12:26 - 12:30(Applause)
- Title:
- How jails extort the poor
- Speaker:
- Salil Dudani
- Description:
-
Why do we jail people for being poor? Today, half a million Americans are in jail only because they can't afford to post bail, and still more are locked up because they can't pay their debt to the court, sometimes for things as minor as unpaid parking tickets. Salil Dudani shares stories from individuals who have experienced debtors' prison in Ferguson, Missouri, challenging us to think differently about how we punish the poor and marginalized.
- Video Language:
- English
- Team:
- closed TED
- Project:
- TEDTalks
- Duration:
- 12:43
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for How jails extort the poor | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for How jails extort the poor | ||
Brian Greene edited English subtitles for How jails extort the poor | ||
Camille Martínez accepted English subtitles for How jails extort the poor | ||
Camille Martínez edited English subtitles for How jails extort the poor | ||
Camille Martínez edited English subtitles for How jails extort the poor | ||
Leslie Gauthier edited English subtitles for How jails extort the poor | ||
Leslie Gauthier edited English subtitles for How jails extort the poor |