Rachel Maddow in Conversation

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[Applause]

[Laughter]

[Rachel Maddow]
Wow thank you all so much for coming

[Applause]

Wow

Did he say 4,000 people are here?

[Laughs] This is crazy

[from audience] We love you Rachel
[RM ]I love you too, thank you.

Alright I'm sorry about
the whole crutches thing

I know it's melodramatic, right?

It's a very boring story
or I would tell it

Thank you all so much for being here.

This is an overwhelming number of humans

I am just incredibly honored
that you're all here

I do a show on TV and I know that
there are people watching

but I can't see them
and so this is coming face to face

with something that I really try
never to think about,

which is that a lot of people
know what I do

including the screw-ups every day.

So as a way to try to minimize the emotion

I am actually going to change glasses,
so that with these glasses on

I will not be able to see any of you
which will make this easier for me.

All right,okay, so I did not set out
to write a book

about the oil and gas industry

And I thought: for sure, if I did,
no one would want to read it.

and then this weird thing happened,

right around the time the book
was ready to come out,

which is that the president
started getting impeached

and [cheers and applause]
I didn't do it but I'll take the applause

and the the thing
that really surprised me

is that this book is coming out
and it's kind of about the thing

for which the president
is being impeached .

And so I had planned -- when
I was going to go around

and talk about the book
and do events like this --

that I would read like the funny section
of the book.

There's a section I really like
that I think is kind of funny,

that's about walruses

and I was like I go to Chicago,
It's going to be this big room

that's gonna slay,
they're gonna love the walruses thing

because the president
is now being impeached, though,

for something that has to do
with the thesis of this book

I kind of feel like I should read
from that part of the book:

just - in part because I'm really looking
forward to this conversation with Allison

and some of your guys' questions
and I feel like maybe

this would be kind of a good predicate
because I have a feeling

there might be some appetite to talk
about that.

And from the applause a second ago,
when I said the word impeachment

I think I'm right; so all right
so I'll read a little bit and then

I'll just say a little thing
and then Allison will come out.

So here we go: the reason I specifically
kind of picked out this part tonight

is because of those guys
who got arrested a couple days ago,

Lev and Igor, they -- one of the things
that was interesting about that --

so they got arrested and charged with
trying to

funnel illegal campaign donations,

including illegal foreign-origin
Russian campaign donations

to Republican politicians,both to start
a weed business, but also to try to get

the US ambassador to Ukraine removed,

as part of a scheme they were working on

with the President's lawyer
Rudy Giuliani.

And we know from Mr. Giuliani's
own account

that the reason they wanted
that ambassador out in Ukraine

was because she was in the way

of their scheme to get Ukraine to provide the president

with dirt he could use against the

Democrats in the 2020 election which is

what he's now being impeached for so it

all kind of ties but I thought it was it

was interesting and like weird given the

book that when those guys got arrested

remember they got arrested at Dulles

Airport and we think they moved up the

indictment so that they could hurry up

the arrests because they had one-way

tickets out of the country and so they

went and they swooped in and they got

them at Dulles and they brought them to

the nearest federal courthouse the

relevant federal courthouse if you're

ever arrested at Dulles Airport trying

to flee the country as news you can use

is the Eastern District of Virginia and

so they've got brought in for their

initial court hearing at the Eastern

District of Virginia and the weirdest

thing happened

they got Paul manna Ford's lawyers what

were they doing there what's your

connection to all this did you guys know

each other before so that was weird

mr. Giuliani also says that one of the

people who he's been working on this

scheme with the one that the president

is going to get impeached for the person

who was giving him strategic advice on

what the president might be able to

solicit from Ukraine to help him in his

next election one of the people he has

been consulting with on this is Paul

Manafort who is the president's campaign

chairman but currently is a federal

inmate and apparently mr. Giuliani has

been working with him so there's the

guys who are in jail now who have just

been arrested and indicted there's the

other guy who's serving a federal prison

sentence those are those are the first

three guys Giuliani is working with on

this scheme and then there's another guy

because when they got arrested at Dulles

they had these one-way tickets and they

were to Frankfurt but they didn't say

that they were planning on staying in

Frankfurt they were going to transit

through there and mr. Giuliani again

always helpful told a reporter for the

Atlantic that where they were going was

Vienna Austria and he was also on his

way to Vienna Austria but they weren't

going together it was just coincidence

and we now know that the reason they

were going to Vienna Austria is because

they were at least either Lev or Igor I

can't tell them apart yet by next week I

will have it one of them was working for

a guy whose name is Dmitri firtash who's

in the book and what has emerged

actually what he merged last night which

is why I'm going to read this today is

Reuters how to report that Dmitri

firtash who is not in prison but is

under arrest and out on bail and

fighting extradition to the United

States where US prosecutors say that

he's an upper echelon associate of

Russian organized crime and he's wanted

on a multibillion-dollar fraud scheme

Dmitri firtash is the one who has

apparently according to Reuters been

financing Lev and Igor in their latest

exploits it may it also is starting to

appear like maybe Dmitri firtash is the

one who was paying Rudi

for this work through love and Igor and

like I said us prosecutors believe he's

an upper echelon associate of Russian

organized crime so I feel like it's all

coming together and the president is

gonna get impeached for this stuff but

all of the people who are apparently

were involved in in all of the people

who were apparently involved in hooking

them up with this are either in jail in

prison or fighting extradition plus Rudy

and so I feel like I have to talk about

this stuff now quick because well once

they're all in jail it's gonna be harder

to get more of the story out so anyway

that's the back that's the background

the immediate news background which I

think makes this relevant all right

the biggest threat Putin had to keep it

BAE was the prospect of strong rich

stable western-oriented democracies in

Russia's near abroad that sort of thing

could not only challenge or constrain

Russia's regional power it could

conceivably the horror inspire the

Russian people themselves leading them

to demand a democratic say in their own

government as well the solution was

simple use Russian natural gas and oil

not only to make money for the Russian

state but also to keep neighboring

countries corrupt and dependent it

solved so many problems it reduced

expectations for democratic governance

and the rule of law in those countries

it created a corruptly empowered

political class invested in preserving

the Russia dependent system that

enriched both its practitioners and

oftentimes also their families it also

created comfortable space for organized

crime to flourish the Russian government

under Vladimir Putin's control has

steadily become more integrated with all

kinds of transnational organized crime

in the former Soviet sphere and not just

because Putin has tended to attract the

kinds of broken nose Tufts who would

otherwise be called henchmen if Putin

hadn't made them so rich

the beauty of putin's ever deepening

kinship with the mob was that it gave

him a whole other

of levers with which to settle problems

and to make problematic people go away

whenever it might be unseemly to wield

the overt powers of the state and so

Putin's team in the Kremlin was

delighted to utilize a man like Dimitri

firtash Dimitri for attaches special

skills could be used to shape Ukraine

more to the Kremlin's liking to turn it

from its increasingly worrying

flirtation with the West with the work

with the European Union with Oh God

maybe even NATO so the Kremlin cut

firtash a sweetheart deal in Ukraine

virata's new company was given the

exclusive right to buy gas from Russia

to sell to Ukraine at a very large

profit about eight hundred million

dollars in clear profit in the year 2007

alone now Ukraine could just as easily

have bought the gas with no middleman

and no markup but Putin wanted both the

middleman and the markup it cost Gazprom

the Russian natural gas company a pretty

penny basically straight out of Russian

government coffers but it was worth it

firtash as well as some of Putin's other

Ukrainian oligarchs would have plenty of

cash to spread around to shape Ukraine

in ways that Putin would appreciate some

of that cash did go back to Moscow as

tribute but even more of it went to prop

up something called the Party of Regions

which meant a whole bunch of that money

passed through or ended up in the

offshore bank accounts of the mercenary

American political operative named Paul

Manafort Paul Manafort helped the Moscow

friendly party of regions when a solid

plurality in the 2006 parliamentary

elections in Ukraine and then he spent

the next few years dinging Ukraine's

strongest opposition leaders including

those from the orange party Prime

Minister Yulia Tymoshenko was a prime

target

Timoshenko was a particular threat to

Moscow's influence in Ukraine she had

made herself the front-runner in the

2010 presidential election by seizing on

that sweetheart gas deal that Dmitri

firtash got from the Kremlin she

promised to end that deal she made a

good case why on earth should

firtash his company should anybody's

company be allowed to siphon off 800

million dollars in a single year by

doing nothing by just playing this

middleman role that nobody needed nobody

asked for

well manna fort and his team went right

at prime minister Tymoshenko with full

force

they helped drive down her approval

ratings to 20% six months before that

2010 presidential election even when she

renegotiated the russia-ukraine natural

gas deal in 2009 she actually got rid of

that deal she cut firtash out she got

rid of that middleman even her

renegotiation of that deal wasn't enough

to sway a majority of voters to her mana

forts guy Yanukovych squeezed by her and

into the presidency in 2010 mana fort

received much credit for the ANA Kovich

victory and he got a rich new contract

as the new Ukrainian president's

off-site political adviser and he got

right to work one of Yanukovych his

first acts as Ukraine's new president

was to SiC a rabid state prosecutor on

Yulia Tymoshenko lock her up

Yanukovych's prosecutor charged

Timoshenko with the crime of abusing her

official powers by illegally arranging

the new firtash free gas deal between

Russia and Ukraine the accused her of

corruption for having gotten rid of that

corrupt deal Timoshenko had a lot of

sympathy in the United States and Europe

so mana fork got right to work on a

multi-part expensive public relations

campaign to destroy her reputation in

Ukraine and also in the United States

but they brought those corruption

charges against her they prosecuted her

they convicted her and they locked her

up and with Timoshenko stashed in prison

trashed by the American PR firms and

American law firms that mana fort paid

for Russia's men in Ukraine

mob-connected Dmitry firtash got back

into the gas deal which was better than

ever his company's operating profit for

the years 2012 and 2013 added up to

nearly four billion dollars

with that kind of money available for

corrupting any actual governance in the

interests of the people of Ukraine

Putin's natural gas supply there hovered

over the heads of the Ukrainian people

like a sword Putin could tell things

were going well when Yanukovych were an

egg Don his campaign promised to move

Ukraine toward greater cooperation with

possibly even membership in the European

Union

Putin knew that wouldn't that couldn't

ever happen the problem was the

Ukrainian people appeared to really like

the idea even when Putin promised 15

billion dollars worth of new aid to

Ukraine the will of the Ukrainian people

was clear they wanted the EU no matter

Putin's largesse and the orange side

revolted again what started on November

21st 2013 as a small demonstration in

the main square in Kiev and the Madonn

grew in just a few days to another

100,000 person protests the

demonstrators took over the square and

refused to leave a violent crackdown by

police in the last days of November

didn't quell the enthusiasm in the face

of Yanukovych's armed security forces

determined protesters strapped on pots

and pans as makeshift armored and they

took to the streets and the crowds kept

on coming and growing this lasted

through November through December putin

thought the cold Kiev January would

break the crowd if the security forces

could not he was wrong in February as

the Sochi Olympics kicked off they were

still there by the tens of thousands

wearing their makeshift 21st century

defensive kitchen where huddled for

warmth around trash can fires the

protest had morphed from a demonstration

about the EU question into a

demonstration about democracy itself the

will of the governed Ukrainians were

calling it the revolution of dignity the

demonstrators in Kiev were gaining

courage in numbers and on February 18

2014 they armed themselves with

slingshots and braved a gauntlet of

Yanukovych's armed security forces and

they marched on the Ukrainian Parliament

when Yanukovych is security forces

started killing protesters that

afternoon the crowds retreated to their

barricades in the Madonn and remained

there through a terrifying night

protected by a ring of fire Yanukovych's

security forces broke out machine guns

they scrambled rooftop snipers the next

day and the civilian casualty list just

kept growing and growing

one defiant protesters standing behind a

makeshift shield wearing a plastic

helmet and a surgical mask yelled we are

not afraid to die for freedom freedom is

for us freedom is ours we will win and

Ukraine will be part of Europe and

Ukraine will be part of the free world

and we'll never be slaves we will be

free

Putin watched it all with a growing

sense of dread and a growing sense of

anger here at his doorstep was the

Western conspiracy America was the cause

of all of this mess he was sure the last

little bit I'm gonna read on the eve of

the final day of the Sochi Olympics

Yanukovych not lost his nerve he called

off his security forces he turned tail

and ran he gave over Kiev and the

federal government to the orange

revolutionaries the Ukrainian Parliament

met in an emergency session legislators

voted Yanukovych out of office in

absentia they ordered the immediate

release of Yulia Tymoshenko and she was

freed and they voted to refer Yanukovych

to the International Criminal Court to

answer for crimes against humanity

Yanukovych resurfaced a few days later

in a Party of Regions stronghold in the

Russia friendly eastern part of the

country but he ran into protests even

there thousands of his countrymen faced

him down right there on his home streets

chanting Ukraine is not Russia

Ukraine is not Russia Ukraine is not

Russia Yanukovych fled to Moscow Putin

was done trying to make nice he'd had it

with the United States he was sure it

was the United States meddling on his

turf vice president Joseph R Biden had

been in and out of Kiev for years

insisting that the Obama administration

would protect Ukraine from Russia

Biden said we do not recognize and I

want to reiterate it we do not recognize

any sphere of influence and he followed

that up with what sounded like an insult

the Russians he said have a shrinking

population base they have a withering

economy they have a banking sector and

structure that's not likely to be able

to withstand the next 15 years they are

in a situation where the world is

changing before them and they are

clinging to something in the past that

is not sustainable

Putin sort of took it personally so the

good news is I scheduled a book tour and

the publication of the book for the time

when nothing is going on and I'm looking

forward to talking a little bit tonight

about how I do think that the oil and

gas industry and its influence

particularly how it works in the part of

the world that is now an area of such

focus for us I do think that links to

the current impeachment crisis and I'm

looking forward to talking about that

but in terms of where this came from

like I said at the top I did not set out

to write a book about this industry I

didn't start off knowing anything about

this industry and people who know a lot

about the industry probably think I

still don't know anything but I I had

two things that I was really stuck on

and they both led me to this and one was

this thing that I feel like we probably

didn't know any of us in our lifetimes

is going to become the fight of our

lifetimes which is the fight between the

rule of law between democratic rule of

law liberal democracy and

authoritarianism and to be facing

structural and serious and potentially

existential threats to our own democracy

at home is sort of shocking enough I

think for us as Americans but to see

clearly that this is happening to us at

a time when democracy is in decline

around the world and authoritarianism is

on the rise around the world I think

should be centering for us it should

make us realize that however America

exceptionalism may function in our lives

and in our foreign policy there are

times in life and there are times in the

evolution of Nations when bold strong

patriotic citizens can learn a lot from

people in other countries who have gone

through this too and I think we have a

lot of fellowship around the world right

now with a lot of people who are trying

to figure out how to do this right and

in thinking about trying to contribute

something meaningful e to this

discussion something meaningful to this

discussion about authoritarianism versus

the rule of law I felt like I'd heard a

lot of generic statements about

democracy being good and

authoritarianism being bad and generic

statements about needing to fight for it

and I felt like I wanted to get more

specific and I think part of trying to

shore up something that's at risk is

figuring out what's hurting it figuring

out what is within our culture within

our economy within our political sphere

that is sapping the strength of

democracy that's making it feel like a

sham to so many people that's making

strongman politics seem more attractive

and I think you need to talk about big

business when you talk about that I

think the other thing that led me to

this topic is something that you're

probably less surprised by if you've

ever seen the show which is that I'm

kind of obsessed with Russia which I

make no apologies for and but in all of

the coverage that I've done and all the

coverage that everybody in the media has

done about what happened in 2016 in

terms of our election I was really stuck

trying to figure out the motive force

for why why Russia did what it did in

part because what they did was weird

right there's like a guy who's connected

to the Kremlin who runs like a social

media factory that sounds like it's no

fun and they're making they're creating

fake American avatars and pretending to

be Facebook groups that don't exist and

then tricking Americans into going to

demonstrations and also they're stealing

Democratic Party risotto recipes and

publishing them

the name gusoff er 2.0 like what is this

why is this happening and is why is it

happening in this way these are odd

tactics but also what's the risk and we

risk and reward balance for Russia and

this I mean as best as we can tell

Russia seems to have thought that

Hillary Clinton was gonna win too I mean

they were doing their best to make sure

that wasn't gonna happen but I think

they still thought she was gonna win and

if she had won

I mean Secretary Clinton was already a

hawk on Russia imagine if she'd come

into the presidency with Russia having

just taken this swing at her in our

election to try to hurt her as president

and to try to install her opponent had

she become president they had to have

known that things were probably going to

go pear-shaped really fast but yet it

was still worth it for them to try very

very very very high-risk something that

almost smacks of desperation

well what I arrived at pretty quickly is

that I think it's hard to understand

Russia's own motivation in the world

without understanding that their economy

really sucks Russia is the biggest

landmass of any country on earth they've

got a hundred and fifty million people

which is really big I mean Germany's

eighty-five million people the UK 70

million people Italy's 60 million people

South Korea 50 million people brush is a

hundred and fifty million people they've

got an economy smaller than Italy's

smaller than South Korea's triple the

population and the same and a smaller

economy and that itself is something

that Russian politicians are the answer

for but it gets you to sort of the next

question well why is their economy so

bad especially when they float on a sea

of oil and gas generally speaking it

turns out that oil and gas is a terrible

thing on which to build your economy and

that's part of what went wrong in Russia

that's part of a bad gamble that

Vladimir Putin made very early on in his

presidency the other thing though that I

think is important is that oil and gas

not only isn't a good thing to build

your economy on the oil and gas industry

when it's big enough it kind of makes it

political weather one thing they're

actually really for all the things

they're not good at like they are for

example not good at cleaning up after

themselves really like paper towels is

still like the apex of what they have to

offer in terms of oil spills I mean

they're fancy very expensive paper

towels but it's paper towels that's what

they use for all the things they are not

that good at they're not good at

cleaning up after themselves they're not

good at sailing to Alaska they're not

good at all sorts of stuff you think

they'd be good at but one thing they're

really good at is getting governments of

all shapes and sizes to serve them to

serve their interests as an industry in

a way that tends to Hubble the ability

of that government to do a good job

serving any other responsible purpose

and that dynamic to me ended up being

fascinated fascinating setting aside

whatever might be bad for your country

in terms of having oil and gas

production there what we see over and

over and over again is that where oil

revenues flow government tends to suffer

and that's true even when it's tons of

oil revenues the founding energy

minister of Saudi Arabia says and I

quote all in all I wish we'd discovered

water the founder of OPEC says as far as

he can tell oil is quote the excrement

of the devil the founder of OPEC not

only says that oil is poop but oil is

the devil's poop it's like there's

definitely a book there right I don't I

don't know what else is gonna be in the

book but that is in the book and you

know oil companies are full of regular

people doing regular jobs both myself

and my partner Susan we both have family

members close family members have worked

in the oil industry it's nothing

personal

whatsoever but this is an industry that

is sort of nuking the planet 76 percent

of carbon emissions in the United States

are from burning oil or burning natural

gas it's basically we're the biggest

economy on earth you're talking about

more than three-quarters of our

emissions that's the big enchilada

that's it

oil and gas does also prop up terrible

governments around the world and they

weaken democratic accountable governance

everywhere

they operate I think on Russia

specifically it is also worth

understanding how much of a lifeline the

big majors of the oil industry and

ExxonMobil in particular how much of a

lifeline they have been for what has

morphed into basically malignant

kleptocratic dictatorship that has tried

to reorder the world and undo all

Western alliances and smear itself all

over US and all over every other Western

democracy they can get their mitts on

and so that's I think where we get to a

little bit of this issue of that this

conflict we've got between rising

authoritarianism and the rule of law but

I also just want to say just a couple of

things in closing I am really hopeful

about the ability to do something about

this I wouldn't have written the book of

I didn't think there was if it was sort

of a can-do thing and part of what I

think is can do about it is that I think

it's understandable I don't think this

is something that is 3d chess don't I

don't think it's a conspiracy theory I

don't think it's something that is too

big to fathom and I think the solutions

about how to deal with that how to shore

up democracy by reining in and

containing some of the forces that

corrode our democracy it's doable stuff

and the sort of one of the stories that

I tell in the book the sort of heroic

story in the book that's based in the

United States is about schoolteachers in

the great state of Oklahoma I did a book

tour event earlier this week in Tulsa

was freaking fantastic 3,000 people

coming out to see Rachel Maddow talk

about the oil and gas industry in Tulsa

yeah bring it it's great they said it

couldn't be done but in

Oklahoma is a great great great teaching

moment for all of us because Oklahoma is

a state where the oil and gas industry

is incredibly powerful and we're in many

ways that industry has co-opted and

taken over what should otherwise be

government for the people and there's no

shame in that that happens literally

everywhere oil and gas is produced in

quantity everywhere on earth but because

of that co-optation

Oklahoma started to have some really

serious problems I mean including

man-made earthquakes but not just that

and the way they responded was that

they've kind of flipped the light switch

on their democracy and Oklahoma did not

become an environmental Haven and

Oklahoma did not shut down its oil and

gas industry and oil and Oklahoma did

not become a blue state but Oklahoma

citizens of all ideological stripes

decided that they needed to take back

what their government was doing from the

industry that was strangling it and they

showed up in quantity led by the

teachers and by the students who

supported them and they reorganized

their state budget and I know the level

of the gross production tax for oil and

natural gas in the state of Oklahoma

doesn't sound like it's the thing that's

going to save the world but when they

turned it from 2% to 5% by

people-powered demonstrations under the

Rotunda in the most oil and gas captured

government within the United States that

to me was the path even among those

Republican teachers most of them even in

that conservative state to know that

this is doable stuff and I am inspired

by that I am also humbled and inspired

and in awe of the climate activist

movement that's being led by young

people right now

I think that it is no secret that they

will win what they are trying to do they

are going to win and the question for

the United States for those of us here

in the u.s. is twofold one how quickly

are we going to get there how quickly

can we make this decision and how

ambitious can be can we be when we make

it but also can we rise to the occasion

of being the biggest economy on earth

every Western oil major is either

headquartered here or needs to do lots

of business here and that means they are

all de-facto regulated here and if the

American public would stand up and do

things at the federal level to regulate

this industry that literally props up

despot around the world that not only is

game over for the climate in terms of

them getting their way but that also

erodes our own governance here and

everywhere else they touch if we enacted

the reforms at the federal level which

is something we already started to do at

the end of the Obama administration and

it could be done it would have a

worldwide effect in terms of shoring up

democracy helping us make better

decisions about the climate and making

those decisions faster and with more

ambition and it's within our reach and

that to me is exciting and I will just

close with one last thought which is I

mentioned the paper towels thing it did

surprise me in writing the book that the

level of technological hmm that's the

nice way to say this the way we

overestimate the technological capacity

of this large cup this large cut this

large industry they're not as good as

they think they are we overestimate

their technological capability and we

underestimate their geopolitical impact

and if we are about to go through a

worldwide reckoning in terms of the use

of these fuels if we are about to have a

climate driven reckoning where we turn

away from this industry at last because

we need to obviously we're all focused

on what the environmental impact of that

will be but I think it is worth thinking

in advance about the fact that that's

going to have a big geopolitical impact

too because this industry does prop up

terrible governments all over the world

they prop up whole systems of governance

all around the world and if their market

share precipitously drops and if they

lose the power that they've got both

just in terms of their wealth and in

terms of their influence and how much we

need them I think we should expect that

the boundaries of countries may change I

think we should expect governance writ

large to change I think we should expect

a number of governments around the world

to fall and quickly and that's not to

say we shouldn't do it but it means that

when that happens when that tipping

point comes and it will come these

activists are gonna win when that moment

comes we need to be able to hold

ourselves up as an exemplar of democracy

why democracy is the best system that

anybody's ever invented to show that

it's strong that it works for the people

and when other forms of government are

in decline and in collapse we're the

example of what you want to be and

[Music]

so thank you all for coming I'm super

happy to have you here I'm gonna put

back on my glasses so now you're about

to reappear and Alison is here and we're

gonna do questions over there if I fall

down between here and there

thank you if I blue to floor it

I didn't bring the book over because

when you have crutches you can't put

anything in your hands so if you want me

to like reference anything I'll have to

crawl over we'll have someone run into

us okay how's that sound

great there's water here okay so I think

it goes without saying after your

earlier reception that it is such a

pleasure an honor and a thrill to have

you Rachel Maddow in Chicago

it's in I love this city I cannot

believe how many people are here it's

amazing I just I'm thrilled so thanks

yeah yeah we are too and and I as you

were saying I don't think any of us

anticipated that the world at this

moment would look feel sound like a kind

of Rachel Maddow opening of a except on

steroids you know that everything you've

been talking about you know you were

able to say this week on your show the

Russians did it it was the Russians you

know after the Senate Intelligence

report came out about infirmed previous

reports as you said a lot of the

characters that are in the book or that

you've been talking about on the show

Rex Tillerson is back in the news he

kind of gone dormant he came back just

for the book launch supportive Dimitri

firtash I'm so glad you found that one

of the most interesting parts of the

book but you know he's actually the

extradition they're trying to extradite

him to Chicago have you got any

Ukrainian connections or Dimitri firtash

goes on trial in Chicago I will be doing

the Rachel Maddow Show from

so yeah I mean it must must boom I mean

these are terrible times but it must

feel kind of good to you hey guys you

know I've been talking about this yeah

writing about the end of the world and

now here it is I really I was thinking

about the Russia attack and trying to

figure out you know as I said the sort

of motive force for what they did would

explain their desperation what would

possibly make it worth it what I think

that we're actually trying to get out of

that election interference I think

sanctions I think you can't understand

any of it without understanding how

difficult sanctions make it for Russia

specifically because they are an oil and

gas economy and their own oil and gas

companies are terrible because Putin is

terrible

like you kind of have to get all those

pieces of the story but it does kind of

fall into place I wasn't trying to

explain what Trump was going to get

impeached for that was just like a bonus

icing on the cake I am curious because

when you any as you were kind of closing

and bringing this together and talking

about the stakes in this and thinking

about democracy authoritarianism you

know you characterize the influence of

oil and gas on politics as petroleum

powered governance saying that it has

twin engines corruption in which the

industry effectively effectively

captures politicians and then capture in

which the industry effectively comes to

own the government and when you look at

the operations of oil and gas in Russia

when you look at the operations of oil

and gas and their influence in the

United States and of course this book is

about how they intertwine and take that

step back as you're asking us to do what

are the differences and are the

differences of degree or are they of

kind between Russia and us yes the thing

that Putin recognized about the oil and

gas industry I mean Russia really is

floating on a sea of oil and gas they

they have a ton of it and they were

among the first places in the world

to ever drill it in the former Soviet

Union and the Western Siberia noil sands

are incredibly easy to drill you don't

need very fancy technology in order to

do it and so it's always been a stable

part of even the Soviet economy before

the Russian Federation but when when

Putin got into power that's obviously

the time when Russia is in transition

post Yeltsin right

and Putin sort of has a decision to make

as to whether or not Russia is going to

economically liberalize enough to have a

diversified economy they're gonna have

oil and gas at some level no matter what

but in order to have a diversified

economy and a well-balanced economy you

kind of need like property rights rule

of law a legal system that isn't just

used to kill your enemies and and give

favors to your kids you need a lack of

general corruption at everything from

the permitting process to the election

process and that was it seemed terrible

to Vladimir Putin the idea that you'd

have to go through these sort of

nation-building

things in order to develop a modern

capitalist diversified economy was not

going to work for him and so he decided

to kind of go all in on oil and gas to

the basic basically to the extent where

he took over the industry so that it

could essentially be used as a power of

that as a tool of the presidency right

oil is power oil is corrupt and so

Russia is a weak country with a weak

economy which that what it would take to

make it a strong economy he can't bear

so it's gonna be a weak economy having a

weak economy having a weak political

structure that's essentially evolved

into just this kleptocratic

authoritarianism now there's not much to

offer and it's not that's not the way

you become a stronger and more

influential country but he still sees

Russia as having an international scale

but having ambitions of international

scale and so the reason that oil and gas

was so attractive to him as something he

was willing to rely on in its entirety

was because if he could control them and

wheel

his tools he could use them as weapons

against other countries and that's what

he's done in the near abroad in terms of

all the former Soviet states Ukraine

first among them but that's also what

he's doing with Western Europe I mean he

can literally turn the lights off at

will in Germany and in Ukraine and in

lots of other places and that power is

irresistible to him and it's really the

only power that he's got and so to see

oil and gas used as a weapon there and

to see him make the because he wanted to

control it himself he couldn't allow for

there to be good companies run by strong

guys who got rich doing it because they

were good at the oil and gas business

anytime anybody got good at it he would

lock them up take their company and fold

it into Ross and after gas problem so

their help they have a terrible oil and

gas sector even though it's all they've

got its run by like his judo partners

for money with seven it's all these guys

with like noses that go this way and you

know kicked dogs for fun on their coffee

breaks I mean it's just they're terrible

the Gazprom lost over 300 billion

dollars of its valuation since this guy

Alexey Miller has been in charge but

he's still in charge because he's doing

exactly what Putin wants them to do with

that company it's they're terrible in

order to drill oil and gas in Russia as

they run out of the easy oil and gas

that they were used to as they need to

get to more challenging drilling

locations like the Arctic sea and all

these other places they want to drill

they can't do it with the terrible

companies they have they need to tap

Western experts this is one ant with

sanction this is one of the ironies

right the rhetoric in the United States

in some circles has long been that we

are dependent on foreign oil and in fact

foreign or at least Russian oil is

highly dependent on our oil and and our

oil expertise as they're saying it's a

form of people like Rex Tillerson and

Exxon yeah and not in it turned like it

turns out there's like these amazing

stories to tell about that I mean so

Russia after what I was describing there

in terms of Yanukovych turning tail and

fleeing and Putin being really mad right

what we all know what happened right

after that right Putin invaded Ukraine

and took part of it and in response the

u.s. put sanctions on them and in 2014

who Rosneft had just done a half

trillion dollar oil deal the largest oil

deal in the history of deals Ross left

of Justin a huge half trillion dollar

deal with Exxon to go do some of this

challenging drilling up in the Arctic

among other places and Rex Tillerson is

the one who did that deal lots of other

Western executives have had a really

hard time in Russia but Rex figured it

out somehow he didn't Putin somehow saw

eye to eye he was able to do this giant

deal and they were up there drilling in

the Arctic sea as or in the Kara Sea as

US sanctions on Russia were going into

effect as US sanctions on the head of

Russia's national oil company we're

going into effect and Rex and Exxon are

still there going we need a couple more

days we need a couple more days we have

we need an environmental waiver we're

worried about cleaning up properly

because of the birds we're really

worried about the we can't leave and

they're trying to get one more day one

more day one more day one more extension

because they're trying to hit oil before

they go and they do they hit oil and

then the next day sanctions yanked them

out of there and Russian oil and gas

companies suck so badly that even with

Exxon having drilled the well and found

the oil and pointed them toward it they

can't get it out of the ground and so

since that day with that half trillion

dollar deal on ice because of u.s.

foreign policy

Russia has been up against it this is

the only thing they've got in their

economy how are they going to get that

oil they need this they need Exxon they

need these Western companies well u.s.

foreign policy says they can't use them

well who should our guy who we just

installed in the White House be put in

charge of u.s. foreign policy then how

about Rex

it's an existential threat to them it

was worth it right man they also did

things despite sanctions like the

annexation of Crimea and their

developing oil and drilling there and I

wondered but reading that story it's

about you know what Russia is trying to

do to maintain this power and hold on to

it and it ensure a steady supply of it

because it is all power to them but it's

also about Exxon and Tillerson and

others trying to figure out how do we

work around the edges of these sanctions

and what are the loopholes so we can

continue to do this and it struck me in

as all of this is coming together into

that great big you know the the Rachel

Maddow prophecy that is now on earth

said that there's something similar in

the way that President Trump and and

some of the people around him are kind

of you know right now they're not

talking about the content of the

impeachment and all the news that is

coming out Gordon Sandlin just now is

saying that he will go before Congress

and talk about the quid pro quo they're

talking about the legality of this and

kind of refusing it and that is

something that this president has seemed

very good at to kind of test guardrails

and then push right through them and

ignore them and so as we're moving

forward and as you're watching this what

do you think to come back to that

question of if we are the kind of stop

you know this is where it stops our

democracy we have to be the best

what should the Democrats be doing to

try and enforce those kind of democratic

guardrails against them when he

seemingly does not seem to care about

them or even acknowledge them yeah I

mean I what's been interesting I think

with the president it's a very astute

point I think is that I feel like what

we've watched in real time over the

course of his presidency is that he

learns where these democratic norms are

in real time by crossing them because he

didn't know they were there like I'm not

supposed to just give security

clearances to my kids

this is a problem oh you're bothered by

this

yeah I'm given security clearances to

everybody you know like he learns what

if the problem learns what's illegal or

what the problem is by doing it and then

decides to make a virtue of it and so

that makes it hard to figure out like

usually when people do stuff in politics

that's bad like that getting caught is

the start of it getting fixed but in

this case getting caught is the start of

the Republican Party trying to celebrate

that at that crime is a new virtue and

that shamelessness about about about

what they're doing wrong

makes it hard I mean our most of our

tools within the Democrat within our

American democratic process are based on

shame that if you do this you will have

to disclose it and once you disclose it

people will criticize you for it and you

will be ashamed and that is the

disincentive for you to do the thing in

the first place well not if you don't

have any shame so it's hard but I mean

the the thing I am I the thing I see the

Democrats doing that I think is

unavoidable but also keeps me up a

little bit at night is that they are

taking the things that used to be rules

that the president has gleefully broken

and that the Republican Party and the

president's supporters have tried to

turn into virtues because he has broken

those things there

the Democrats are now looking at those

rules and thinking about making them

into laws the things that you were just

supposed to not do because they were

disgusting or because they were

politically unpalatable you will now not

be allowed to do and that's probably

necessary but it also change our

democratic system and I don't want the

judiciary to be the only check on our

political officials especially

because I'm very worried about the

direction of the justice department

right now I mean the the biggest norm

that has been broken in this

administration I think has actually not

been broken by the president but by the

Attorney General and the most serious

thing that we have to worry about in

terms of the drift of our democracy

right now is I think the use of the US

Justice Department to punish the

president's political opponents and

reward his political allies that that is

something for which a former attorney

general named John Mitchell went to

prison in the 1970s and I'm I feel like

if John Mitchell were alive right now

and working in the Justice Department

his only worry would be how fast he was

getting promoted and I'm very very

concerned about that and you couple that

with the sort of neat this feeling among

the Democrats that this stuff ought to

be illegal so nobody else can get away

with it the way Trump has those those

things pull me in opposite directions

mm-hmm yeah I you know I an audience

question for you there's a number of

things to be worrying about but there's

also this question from Vicki Fogerty if

and you've answered this already but

since as you say everything's moving so

quickly I curious to know what your

answer is now low these three days later

Vicki Fogerty asks if the evidence is

there for impeachment do you believe the

republican-controlled Senate will

impeach so that's the first part what

will the Senate do yeah I have no idea I

mean it's very easy I think to look at

Mitch McConnell from a distance and be

like yeah okay

but I also I do feel like we are in a

special moment and it is worth

appreciating the unique nature of the

thing that our country is going through

right now I mean President Trump has

been very controversial since before his

election and the idea that he is now

being impeached in some ways I think

feels inevitable feels like you know a

relief for people who have been critical

of his behavior but impeachment is

is is a hen's tooth I mean it's a really

rare thing it was Andrew Johnson in 1867

keep me honest I think they tried to

impeach him in 67 and they failed and

then they went back with like exactly

the same articles innate to 1868 and

they got him then and Johnson was not

removed because of Furth for want of one

vote in the Senate so that was the house

impeaching him the Senate not removing

him you have to get to the 90s before we

do it again Richard Nixon resigned

without being impeached yes they were

drawing up impeachment articles but he

resigned rather than face that so it's

Andrew Johnson and Richard and and Bill

Clinton that's it that's the only

history that we've got as a country with

impeachment and if you think that you

can extrapolate from those two examples

right to understand you know what's

normal but if the Republican if the

Senate does not yeah in vote to impeach

what does that do to the Republican

Party that's the second half of the case

well I don't I mean I don't I don't know

what's going to happen I don't know when

the Democrats are going to take their

impeachment vote and I don't know what

they're gonna try to impeach him on I

think the number of articles that they

try to impeach him on may end up being

very important just in terms of the game

theory of all of this in terms of the

numbers of Republicans who may find

something in an article three that they

didn't like in an article two when it

gets to the US Senate I think that most

democratic senators will likely vote to

remove I think that Republican senators

are basically thought to not have any

chance of that but I also feel like we

should be humble about that prediction

I don't know what's gonna happen we

don't know what's gonna come out and

preachments only been going on for three

weeks now and look how much we've

learned we didn't even know Igor

did you guys see the picture that

circulated today which is Igor and Lev

and Mike Huckabee and Igor or love again

I'm sorry I don't know which one of them

is literally holding a bag of money is

this Halloween costume is it I don't

know what will happen I think listen if

Mitch McConnell was never going to do

anything and he knew that from the

beginning no matter what came out

weren't you surprised when he came out

and said in an interview the other day

like actually we will be forced to take

this up in the Senate as I understand

the impeachment process but you don't

have a choice we got to bring it up now

he very quickly said now I don't know

how long that means we'll spend on it

and so maybe that means he convenes the

impeachment trial adjourns it and it's

over in the blink of an eye but he could

have Merrick garland did this thing just

as easily

I mean Mitch McConnell is not that

worried about the niceties of Senate

procedure when it comes to getting

something important that he wants for

partisan purposes and I say that with

great deal of admiration but he could

have just said no there's no chance

we're not taking it up don't bother he

didn't which means he's keeping a door

open for himself and I just don't think

we should prejudge any stuff of this I

think we need to have eyes open I think

that Republican I think that Republican

politicians and Democratic politicians

right now could both benefit from our

high expectations and lack of cynicism

about this process expect the best and

the most for almost all of these

politicians what they do in this

impeachment process will be in the first

paragraph of their obituary and they all

know it and that has a tendency to focus

a person's eyes on the horizon rather

than on their own feet and I think that

we I mean if you are a dyed-in-the-wool

Democrat or super liberal super

progressive or the opposite expect the

most and demand the most of people on

both sides of the aisle right here this

really isn't supposed to be a partisan

thing this is supposed to be a patriotic

thing and I think we should feel solemn

about that

but it's hard not to shrug at some of

the high jinks there are some hijinks

yes yes the tagline of your show so I

want to move away from love and he or

Gore and Rudy and Mitch to talk about

you the tagline in their show is trying

to increase the amount of useful

information in the world so you do deal

in reason and information facts rational

arguments you try to ground us you know

give us that solid solid standing but

people I don't know how many people that

I told you were coming who were

immediately like I guess you know

shocked so excited and then said I get

so worked up watching this show oh I

mean in fact I witnessed this I I hope

this isn't tiem I you know I dated

someone briefly who was a big Rachel

Maddow

fan watched the show and get enormous

Lee worked up like this and this is not

the reason we stopped dating but I did

at some point feel like Rachel Maddow is

a bigger presence in this relationship

[Laughter]

[Applause]

[Laughter]

wait can we talk a little bit about the

nature of the worked up like angry

anxious upset I think all of the above

and so what I'm wondering is like you

know your your reason and then the

emotion and the reason what do you make

of that emotion that emotional response

because I don't think that's what you're

necessarily going for oh no I don't I'm

this is this concept that you're

describing to me is new to me I I mean I

I have friends and like friends parents

in particular who say I can't watch you

at night because then I can't go to bed

sorry I got it

and so I listen in the morning or watch

in the morning because it's easier for

me and that I just thought that's you

know like I can't have chocolate after

5:00 was a constitutional thing I didn't

know it was a widespread phenomenon

she was saying that I don't know I mean

I am how do I say this I I am a crier I

am a person who easily I just I've

either leak ride whenever I hear the

national anthem I cry whenever I take

the subway if somebody is busking in the

subway even if they're terrible

immediately waterworks I just like that

and in that way I sometimes show emotion

on TV without wanting to because I can't

control it I mean I have little tricks

and stuff but I can't really control it

but aside from that being an easy crier

I'm not that emotional a person and I

don't think it helps me convey the stuff

that I want to convey in the show to

yell it or to have a fight with somebody

about it or to you know pound the table

I mean I know there's a little bit of

that because sometimes I get a little

wound up in what I'm doing but I I

mostly I'm trying to convey information

and so to the extent that what that is

doing is creating a motion I have no

idea what to do with that I don't I'm

not I'm not trying to upset you I am

totally happy okay

okay I want to ask you another question

about you you know you blend this like

incredible wonkish attention to detail

with this the satirist sense of you know

the big picture and like weaving the

story together and doing it with all

this wit and glee and you know just

energy it's really remarkable to watch

and so you did a PhD in political

science which I assume a place right on

then steered poli-sci grad school

you are a certified wok but we're about

what about that storytelling craft and

that biting wit you have that you're so

famous for and that does draw people

into you know I think that's part of why

they get so emotionally engaged with you

where did that come from is that is

there was it always part of your

worldview or is there a person or an

experience you can point to that that

brought that to you I don't know I mean

I never intended to have this kind of a

career you know like I wasn't aiming at

media certainly I thought I was going to

be an activist and so I pursued my

academic career as sort of trying to

build myself a good toolkit for being a

better activist I never really I've

never really been a person who could

imagine my life very far into the future

which is some subject for therapy and we

could do it here but great time these

chairs are coming it's do you mind if I

lie down nicely and so I was sort of

doing that in a kind of utilitarian way

trying as an activist I felt like my

what I needed to be able to do was

understand the field in which I was

working I was an AIDS activist and then

ultimately became a prison reform

activists and those things were

connected and so I needed to understand

the field in which I was operating I

needed to be able to speak with lots of

different people in order to receive

information from experts in that field

and then I needed to be able to

synthesize the political aims of what I

was doing into a story that would make

the decision-maker change their mind and

so like I did public policy as my

undergraduate degree with a focus on

healthcare because I was an AIDS

activist and I felt like I needed that

but I did a essentially a minor like an

honors thing in in ethics which was the

way that at the school I went to that's

the way you minor in philosophy and the

reason I wanted to do philosophy is

because I felt like I wanted to be

better at making arguments and when it

came to doing a doctoral dissertation I

had done a really heavily quantitative

undergraduate degree I did a lot of

statistics and stuff just that was again

trying to become more literate in ways

that I

would help me make better arguments and

be better at what I was trying to do and

so I wanted to kind of balance that

another way and and tell a big story

about social movements and social change

and that's what I did my doctoral

dissertation on so much it's all about

like just trying to get the next thing

done that I wanted to do but I ended up

at the end of it having been an activist

from the time that I was 16 and having

been trained in argument and public

policy in the mean time and that ended

up unbeknownst to me being a good

background for doing the kind of work

that I do now but it wasn't what I was

aiming at and in terms of being goofy I

think I I mean I think I'm just immature

I mean I mean it literally I am immature

but I don't just mean it like making fun

of myself I think that I like have an

eight-year-old sense of humor and so

like the there's always going to be like

oh like there's going to be a fart joke

somewhere you know there's gonna be like

I had to tell them like doubles

excrement slays me like I'm kind of

eight and so I that's how I think and if

that's the way it comes out I think it

works for some people it doesn't work

for other people I mean there's a lot of

joking around in the book even though

this is a very serious oh it made me

laugh out loud it seemed in that right

so like I wrote a book six or seven

years ago about the military also had

lots of jokes and even people who like

they teach that book at the US Army War

College Wow right something is I've I've

lectured on the book at West Point it's

like it's great but like you'll talk to

somebody who's like really into the

Abrams doctrine and wants to talk about

Selective Service in 1974 but they like

are super mad about the jokes I made

about ed Meese I'm like looking at me I

am going to make jokes about him

works for some people it works as

leavening for some people but I think it

also it's like iron filings in the dip

for other people like it just doesn't

acquired taste

speaking of acquired taste

I'm so good it's not speaking of iron

filings

speaking of acquired taste so as in you

have an 8-year old sense of humor but

you are very adult when it comes to your

beverages of choice

I have never interviewed anyone who got

so many questions about cocktails oh

good

and Justin we can quickly digress a

woman named Jody Masterton Masterson hey

Jody you are very creative she suggested

this is just a few of a much longer list

of cocktail names that you might want to

sip on like belly up to the bar with two

R's Oh oh nice

wet your whistle blower cosmopolitan and

it groans the Leske which was the last

nigrum Celestia oh very nice

Celestia but the question I have is from

John known that last name and he asks

you what is the secret to a perfect

martini oh I could go on you know if you

know drinkers who are like semi-pro that

when we start talking about like the one

drink that means a lot to us it actually

becomes almost a form of bullying like I

have to be careful the way I talk about

a martini because I come across as such

a jerk so I'll be to the point vodka is

not an ingredient in martinis vodka

vodka isn't in there gin is in there but

there is another thing that has to be in

there there has to be vermouth this

whole thing about like Winston Churchill

used to glance at the vermouth and then

exam and then not allow it to touch them

or there's an atomizer with they're

supposed to be vermouth dry vermouth yes

okay and in I think the reason that

people

afraid of putting the proper amount of

dry vermouth in their martinis is

because somebody once served them

something they called a martini that was

accidentally made with vodka vodka mixes

terribly with vermouth and so of course

you want a very dry vodka martini

because what you really want is just a

glass of vodka if you are going to drink

a martini it's both gin and a good

amount like I do like a two-to-one some

people do a 50/50 gin vermouth with good

fresh vermouth that is a bottle that you

didn't open in the Jurassic era it goes

bad it's not that alcoholic you have to

keep it in the fridge after you open it

write the data on the label very

important and if you like a lemon twist

or an olive which are the only two

options you if you have a lemon twist

you do have the option of putting a

little bit of orange bitters in your

martini which does not taste like orange

but actually counterbalances the lemon

so you don't have a fruity drink I know

it sounds counterintuitive but it works

but you can't put orange bitters in your

martini if you're using an olive because

that's weird if you do use an olive it

has to be a green olive and it can have

a pimento if you want although it's not

supposed to it can't have anything else

inside it that's not a pimento and you

have to stir it and it can't be more

than three and a half ounces any other

questions

very nice things I could say about it

but I'll try to stop now maybe the next

book yeah I could write a whole book

just about how about whether in my

opinion I think that sounds a wonderful

I I want to shift gears quite a bit

Amanda Bolton says this is an audience

question president Trump frequently

postures and media's and adversary to

truth and freedom how does that change

the way you engage with the news or how

you present the news that's a very good

question all presidents hate the media

and all presidents feel like they are

uniquely horribly treated by the media

and maybe they're right

I mean maybe as we evolved as a country

we're meaner to each successive

president maybe I mean Who am I to say

that they have distorted perspective but

there is something different going on

with this president that is about trying

to deal Ajith amis the existence of

journalism in the United States writ

large the only other politician I know

who's ever tried this on for size was my

boyfriend Spiro Agnew which is part of

the reason that I wanted to do that

bagman podcast I did because I heard so

I went and listened to some of his

speeches where I mean he's like he's

famous for this nattering nabobs of

negativism

his real speeches where he attacked the

press and where he attacked the Justice

Department and the prosecutors who were

investigating him were like trump 1.0

really really and it was seen at the

time as profoundly dangerous and the way

that he attacked the media was

particularly sort of had a had a barely

camouflaged anti-semitic implication

that he would talk about the media and

the elites in a way that really he was

making it quite clear that it was about

the Jews and the Jews controlling

everything and the Jews being out to get

him and Agnew after he resigned the vice

presidency ultimately would go on to be

basically an international anti-semite

for hire where he would

in solicit income for an income from

foreign governments that wanted to stir

up anger against American Jews literally

that's what he did to make money and so

I feel like Agnew's ghost helps us

understand how malignant this is and how

close it is to really really dark even

fistic aims and I also can see that it's

an offshoot of what other presidents

have done in terms of their complaining

and so recognizing that this could

curdle very badly and it's it's it edges

up against that and I see that I also

feel like the solution to it is not to

get as serious about it but rather to

try to brush it off a little bit and in

my own life part of what it means is

that I sort of refused to play these

games where they try to turn us in the

media against each other I know that

people have different views about how

best to approach this presidency and how

best to approach journalism and some

people think cable news is evil and some

people are mad at the New York Times and

some people think that the you know Jeff

Bezos iteration of the Washington Post

means a thing and some people really

hate Fox News even the news side of Fox

News inside and I I feel like at this

point we're if we're in the if we're in

the news business and we're in the

journalism business then we are all on

the same side and even the people who

hate me I will love back and so it's a

it's I mean

if is everybody here subscribed to their

local public radio station do you pay

money if you're look pay money to your

local public radio station you have a

great public radio here you really do

and it needs and to support local

reporting the best thing you can do for

journalism in your country I don't know

what's going on at Chicago unless

they're Chicago reporters reporting it

in a way that I can pick up in New York

and make into a national story right I

wouldn't have took I wouldn't have had

the Flint water story had there not been

local reporters working in Michigan and

Clinton telling that

like you can't survive with the national

media even if it's a great national

media that you like have to support

local local journalism and you need to

support journalism as a craft I don't

know if in if your kid or if you've got

kids or grandkids who are in middle

school and high school right now but do

you know if at the middle school or high

school that attends to your family do

you know if they've got a student paper

if they don't have a student paper would

you consider getting together with some

of your friends and endowing one if

they're not if they've got that would

you consider endowing proto television

journalism podcast for the jet for the

journalism class and the 6th grade at

your local middle school I mean we need

to grow investigative reporters by the

bushel in this country for the sake of

our democracy we were we were talking

backstage and I get nutrients need two

more questions in concern now I gotta

let you go I'm sorry I've talked so long

you're amazing no apologies this is kind

of a great time for journalism we were

talking about that your book which not

only paints this incredible picture of

the the the threat of the oil and gas

industry and why we need to think about

this and become closer to it but the

number of excellent reporters

represented in it whose work you bring

back to life if we feel like we don't

have access to useful information that's

really not the case there's so many

amazing reporters we were talking in

backstage about she said by Jody Kanter

Megan Chui who are joining us next

Tuesday I'm very excited and their book

and then Ronin Pharaohs catch and kill

now these are two books that talk about

the media in different ways she said is

about the the force of the New York

Times and how that helped them carry

that investigation for it gave them a

certain credibility pharaoh has a

different experience he says the media

company MSNBC NBC that he worked with in

stymied him tried to shut down and I'm

wondering given that there are both

books about me too

and given that you've just thought a lot

about corporate responsibility visa vie

the oil gas industry and the ways in

which governance can get twisted with

sort of trying to serve shareholder

values mm-hmm what do you think the role

of corporate responsibility is in

relationship to me to boy I mean first

of all I think that media companies are

companies and companies need to be

internally improving on these issues

right that the ways of doing business in

the media business and in lots of other

big business have to change and when

there is a reckoning in these things the

companies need to recognize that

evolution and not resistance is the way

to deal with those things and so I think

first and foremost media companies need

to be seen as companies that need to do

their own work there in terms of the

reporting around me to stuff I mean the

to the extent that there are gatekeepers

for this kind of stuff if the

gatekeepers are compromised the stories

aren't going to get out but that just

creates I mean Ronan's book right as far

as I understand it is a story that he

was chasing which is about Weinstein and

then the other story that he discovered

along the way when he started to

investigate what was keeping him from

getting the story about Weinstein and

the proper outcome of that process is

that he is able in the end to tell both

stories one of those stories who want to

pull out surprised for and one of them

he's about to have a number one

best-selling book that's gonna knock me

off the charts and so I mean I think

I've read Megan and Jodi's book I've not

read Megan Ronan's book cause it's not

out but I one of the things that I am

incredibly buoyed by for both of them is

that I think those books are gonna make

people who read them in college decide

to go to journalism school because it is

about the nobility and bravery and civic

mindedness and rigor of journalism done

well and it's as exciting as hell I mean

it really really is and so that's what

welcoming

so speaking of nobility and bravery and

civic mindedness and this is the last

question I hate love you to stay for an

hour way back in 2010 in regard to fake

politics and the dearth of political

facts you said on your show let's argue

let's have the great American debate

about the role of government and the

best policies for the country it's fun

it's citizenship its activism it makes

the country better when we have those

debates and your country needs you it

needs all of you it needs all of us so

if we armed with one of your fabulous

martinis take those hard marching orders

how do we leave tonight and start that

debate Wow

I would I would say a couple of things I

do I do I am not a particularly green

person like I don't come from an

environmental background my partner's

very green and like kind of tried to

make our lives more sustainable and

everything and I just I'm not really

wired that way and I'm trying to get

better having written this book about

the oil and gas industry and the way it

is corrosive toward our ability to make

good democratic decisions now on the way

toward the climate apocalypse you think

that would motivate me to be like you

know like taking a sailboat everywhere

and I'm I'm not I'm intellectually there

but my life hasn't changed to make those

accounts and so I feel you know

embarrassed about that and humble about

that but I also feel like it's worth

being real about that and we don't we're

not all going to become full-time

activists and we're not all going to run

for office and we're not all going to

lead a movement but we can all do

something more than we are already doing

and if

you are incredibly motivated by the

president if you have if you feel like

president Trump is a motivating force

like nothing you've ever had in your

life the what in your life shows that if

you want him out of office or if your

incredible supporter of President Trump

and you really want him to stay in

office what are you doing to make that

happen this is a time when I think we

have all started to realize that you

can't necessarily know what the thing is

that's gonna make the difference in the

world

you can't know what's gonna inspire

people right I mean these viral moments

that spread on social media of regular

people doing things on the middle of a

day when they woke up that morning and

thought it was gonna be a day like no

other and they ended up doing something

that changed the conversation of the

country of 300 million people for a week

you know we're in a position right now

where our ability as individual citizens

to do stuff gives us a new form of

responsibility and to the extent that

the climate matters to you are you doing

other kind of political work and can you

factor climate into that to the extent

that the president matters to you or

this next election matters to you what

are you doing not just to follow it on

TV but to actually participate try to

try as much as you can to change the

outcome and the way that you want it to

go I just think this is just close are

saying this having all of you guys here

in person to me is the reason I was so

like nervous and jittery at the

beginning is because we spend all of our

times with our screens on right I mean

you guys see me behind the TV screen I

know but we also spend all of our times

with our through all of our time with

our phones and with our computer screens

and that's so much the way that we

understand the mediated world right now

but none of you are doing that right now

you're all here in person you came out

here bodily to see me in person to be

among all of these other thousands of

you who came out to do this in person to

be at a live event to imbibe words to

hear a conversation to have new thoughts

and to be around your fellow man while

doing it and that is something that you

don't have to do but you did it and

you're here and it means the world to me

and to me

when we are willing to show up someplace

when we were actually willing to bodily

be there it's transformative not only

potentially for the world but for us and

so I just it means a lot for me to see

you guys right now and I would just say

to do your own inventory in terms of

what matters to you and what you can

maximize in your life in terms of what

you're doing to bring that about

what an awesome love to end on a chill

that Oh

[Applause]

I'm sorry about your dating thing it was

a good news a good sign

[Applause]

you