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Chris Anderson: Perhaps we could start
by just telling us about your country.
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It's three dots there on the globe.
Those dots are pretty huge.
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I think each one
is about the size of California.
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Tell us about Kiribati.
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Anote Tong: Well, let me first begin
by saying how deeply grateful I am
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for this opportunity to share my story
with people who do care.
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I think I've been sharing my story with
a lot of people who don't care too much.
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But Kiribati is comprised
of three groups of islands:
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the Gilbert Group on the west,
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we have the Phoenix Islands in the middle,
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and the Line Islands in the east,
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and quite frankly, Kiribati
is perhaps the only country
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that is actually
in the four corners of the world,
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because we are in the Northern Hemisphere,
in the Southern Hemisphere,
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and also in the east and the west
of the International Date Line.
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These islands are entirely
made up of coral atolls,
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and on average about
two meters above sea level.
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And so this is what we have.
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Usually not more
than two kilometers in width.
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And so, on many occasions,
I've been asked by people,
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"You know, you're suffering,
why don't you move back?"
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They don't understand.
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They have no concept
of what it is that's involved.
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With the rising sea, they say,
"Well, you can move back."
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And so this is what I tell them.
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If we move back, we will fall off
on the other side of the ocean. OK?
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But these are the kinds of issues
that people don't understand.
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CA: So certainly this is
just a picture of fragility there.
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When was it that you yourself realized
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that there might be
impending peril for your country?
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AT: Well, the story of climate change
has been one that has been going on
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for quite a number of decades,
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and when I came into office in 2003,
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I began talking about climate change
at the United Nations General Assembly,
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but not with so much passion,
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because then there was still
this controversy among the scientists
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whether it was human-induced,
whether it was real or it wasn't.
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But I think that that debate
was fairly much concluded in 2007
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with the Fourth Assessment
Report of the IPCC,
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which made a categorical statement
that it is real, it's human-induced,
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and it's predicting
some very serious scenarios
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for countries like mine.
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And so that's when I got very serious.
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In the past, I talked about it.
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We were worried.
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But when the scenarios,
the predictions came in 2007,
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it became a real issue for us.
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CA: Now, those predictions are,
I think, that by 2100,
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sea levels are forecast to rise
perhaps three feet.
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There's scenarios where
it's higher than that, for sure,
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but what would you say
to a skeptic who said,
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"What's three feet?
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You're on average
six feet above sea level.
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What's the problem?"
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AT: Well, I think
it's got to be understood
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that a marginal rise in sea level
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would mean a loss of a lot of land,
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because much of the land is low.
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And quite apart from that,
we are getting the swells at the moment.
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So it's not about getting two feet.
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I think what many people do not understand
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is they think climate change is something
that is happening in the future.
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Well, we're at the very
bottom end of the spectrum.
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It's already with us.
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We have communities
who already have been dislocated.
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They have had to move,
and every parliament session,
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I'm getting complaints
from different communities
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asking for assistance to build seawalls,
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to see what we can do
about the freshwater lenses
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because it's being destroyed,
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and so in my trips
to the different islands,
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I'm seeing evidence of communities
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which are now having to cope
with the loss of food crops,
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the contamination of the water lenses,
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and I see these communities
perhaps leaving, having to relocate,
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within five to 10 years.
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CA: And then, I think the country
suffered its first cyclone,
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and this is connected, yes?
What happened here?
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AT: Well, we're on the equator,
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and I'm sure many of you understand
that when you're on the equator,
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it's supposed to be in the doldrums.
We're not supposed to get the cyclones.
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We create them, and then we send them
either north or south.
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(Laughter)
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But they aren't supposed to come back.
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But for the first time,
at the beginning of this year,
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the Cyclone Pam,
which destroyed Vanuatu --
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and in the process,
the very edges of it actually touched
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our two southernmost islands,
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and all of Tuvalu was underwater
when Hurricane Pam struck.
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But for our two southernmost islands,
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we had waves come over half the island,
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and so this has never happened before.
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It's a new experience.
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And I've just come back
from my own constituency,
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and I've seen these beautiful trees
which had been there for decades,
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they've been totally destroyed.
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So this is what's happening,
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but when we talk
about the rising sea level,
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we think it's something
that happens gradually.
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It comes with the winds,
it comes with the swells,
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and so they can be magnified,
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but what we are beginning to witness
is the change in the weather pattern,
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which is perhaps the more urgent challenge
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that we will face sooner
than perhaps the rising sea level.
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CA: So the country
is already seeing effects now.
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As you look forward,
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what are your options
as a country, as a nation?
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AT: Well, I've been telling
this story every year.
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I think I visit a number of --
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I've been traveling the world
to try and get people to understand.
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We have a plan. We think we have a plan,
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and on one occasion,
I think I spoke in Geneva
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and there was a gentleman
who was interviewing me
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on something like this,
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and I said, "We are looking
at floating islands,"
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and he thought it was funny,
but somebody said,
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"No, this is not funny.
These people are looking for solutions."
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And so I have been looking
at floating islands.
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The Japanese are interested
in building floating islands.
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But, as a country,
we have made a commitment
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that no matter what happens,
we will try as much as possible
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to stay and continue to exist as a nation.
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What that will take,
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it's going to be
something quite significant,
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very, very substantial.
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Either we live on floating islands,
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or we have to build up the islands
to continue to stay out of the water
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as the sea level rises
and as the storms get more severe.
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But even that, it's going to be
very, very difficult
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to get the kind of resourcing
that we would need.
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CA: And then the only recourse
is some form of forced migration.
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AT: Well, we are also looking at that
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because in the event
that nothing comes forward
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from the international community,
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we are preparing,
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we don't want to be caught
like what's happening in Europe.
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OK? We don't want to mass migrate
at some point in time.
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We want to be able
to give the people the choice today,
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those who choose
and want to do that, to migrate.
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We don't want something to happen
that they are forced to migrate
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without having been prepared to do so.
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Of course, our culture is very different,
our society is very different,
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and once we migrate
into a different environment,
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a different culture,
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there's a whole lot
of adjustments that are required.
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CA: Well, there's forced migration
in your country's past,
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and I think just this week,
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just yesterday
or the day before yesterday,
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you visited these people.
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What happened here? What's the story here?
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AT: Yes, and I'm sorry,
I think somebody was asking
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why we were sneaking off
to visit that place.
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I had a very good reason because we have
a community of Kiribati people
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living in that part
of the Solomon Islands,
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but these were people who were relocated
from the Phoenix Islands, in fact,
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in the 1960s.
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There was serious drought, and the people
could not continue to live on the island,
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and so they were moved
to live here in the Solomon Islands,
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and so yesterday it was very interesting
to meet with these people.
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They didn't know who I was.
They hadn't heard of me.
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Some of them later recognized me,
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but I think they were very happy.
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Later they really wanted to have
the opportunity to welcome me formally.
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But I think what I saw yesterday
was very interesting
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because here I see our people.
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I spoke in our language, and of course
they spoke back, they replied,
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but their accent, they are beginning
not to be able to speak Kiribati properly.
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I saw them. There was
this lady with red teeth.
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She was chewing betel nuts,
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and it's not something we do in Kiribati.
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We don't chew betel nuts.
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I met also a family who have married
the local people here,
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and so this is what is happening.
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As you go into another community,
there are bound to be changes.
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There is bound to be
a certain loss of identity,
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and this is what we will be
looking for in the future
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if and when we do migrate.
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CA: It must have been
just an extraordinarily emotional day
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because of these questions about identity,
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the joy of seeing you and perhaps
an emphasized sense of what they had lost.
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And it's very inspiring to hear you say
you're going to fight to the end
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to try to preserve
the nation in a location.
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AT: This is our wish.
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Nobody wants ever to leave their home,
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and so it's been
a very difficult decision for me.
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As a leader, you don't make plans
to leave your island, your home,
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and so I've been asked
on a number of occasions,
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"So how do you feel?"
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And it doesn't feel good at all.
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It's an emotional thing,
and I've tried to live with it,
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and I know that on occasions, I'm accused
of not trying to solve the problem
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because I can't solve the problem.
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It's something that's got
to be done collectively.
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Climate change is a global phenomenon,
and as I've often argued,
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unfortunately, the countries,
when we come to the United Nations --
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I was in a meeting with
the Pacific Island Forum countries
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where Australia and New Zealand
are also members,
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and we had an argument.
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There was a bit of a story in the news
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because they were arguing
that to cut emissions,
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it would be something
that they're unable to do
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because it would affect the industries.
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And so here I was saying,
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"OK, I hear you,
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I understand what you're saying,
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but try also to understand what I'm saying
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because if you do not cut your emissions,
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then our survival is on the line.
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And so it's a matter for you
to weigh this, these moral issues.
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It's about industry as opposed to
the survival of a people.
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CA: You know, I ask you yesterday
what made you angry,
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and you said, "I don't get angry."
But then you paused.
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I think this made you angry.
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AT: I'd refer you to my earlier
statement at the United Nations.
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I was very angry, very frustrated,
and then depressed.
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There was a sense of futility
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that we are fighting a fight
that we have no hope of winning.
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I had to change my approach.
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I had to become more reasonable
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because I thought people would listen
to somebody who was rational,
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but I remain radically rational,
whatever that is.
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(Laughter)
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CA: Now, a core part
of your nation's identity is fishing.
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I think you said pretty much everyone
is involved in fishing in some way.
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AT: Well, we eat fish
every day, every day,
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and I think there is no doubt
that our rate of consumption of fish
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is perhaps the highest in the world.
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We don't have a lot of livestock,
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so it's fish that we depend on.
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CA: So you're dependent on fish,
both at the local level
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and for the revenues
that the country receives
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from the global fishing business for tuna,
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and yet despite that, a few years ago
you took a very radical step.
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Can you tell us about that?
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I think something happened
right here in the Phoenix Islands.
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AT: Let me give some of the background
of what fish means for us.
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We have one of the largest
tuna fisheries remaining in the world.
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In the Pacific, I think we own
something like 60 percent
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of the remaining tuna fisheries,
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and it remains relatively healthy
for some species, but not all.
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And Kiribati is one of the three
major resource owners.
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Tuna resource owners.
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And at the moment, we have been getting
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something like 80 to 90
percent of our revenue
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from access fees, license fees.
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CA: Of your national revenue.
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AT: National revenue,
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which drives everything that we do
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in governments, hospitals,
schools, and what have you.
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But we decided to close this,
and it was a very difficult decision.
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I can assure you, politically,
locally, it was not easy,
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but I was convinced that we had to do this
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in order to ensure
that the fishery remains sustainable.
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There had been some indications
that some of the species,
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in particular the bigeye,
was under serious threat.
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The yellowfin was also heavily fished.
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Skipjack remains healthy.
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And so we had to do something like that,
and so that was the reason I did that.
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Another reason why I did that
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was because I had been asking
the international community
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that in order to deal with climate change,
in order to fight climate change,
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there has got to be sacrifice,
there has got to be commitment.
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So in asking the international community
to make a sacrifice,
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I thought we ourselves
need to make that sacrifice.
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And so we made the sacrifice.
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And forgoing commercial fishing
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in the Phoenix Islands protected area
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would mean a loss of revenue.
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We are still trying to assess
what that loss would be
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because we actually closed it off
at the beginning of this year,
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and so we will see by the end of this year
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what it means in terms
of the lost revenue.
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CA: So there's so many things
playing into this.
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On the one hand,
it may prompt healthier fisheries.
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I mean, how much are you able
to move the price up
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that you charge for the remaining areas?
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AT: The negotiations
have been very difficult,
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but we have managed
to raise the cost of a vessel day.
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For any vessel
to come in to fish for a day,
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we have raised the fee from --
it was 6,000 and 8,000,
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now to 10,000, 12,000 per vessel day.
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And so there's been
that significant increase.
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But at the same time,
what's important to note is,
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whereas in the past these fishing boats
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might be fishing in a day
and maybe catch 10 tons,
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now they're catching maybe 100 tons
because they've become so efficient.
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And so we've got to respond likewise.
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We've got to be very, very careful
because the technology has so improved.
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There was a time when the Brazilian fleet
moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
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They couldn't.
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They started experimenting
if they could, per Se.
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But now they've got ways of doing it,
and they've become so efficient.
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CA: Can you give us a sense
of what it's like in those negotiations?
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Because you're up against companies
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that have hundreds of millions
of dollars at stake, essentially.
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How do you hold the line?
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Is there any advice you can give
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to other leaders who are dealing
with the same companies
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about how to get
the most for your country,
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get the most for the fish?
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What advice would you give?
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AT: Well, I think we focus
too often on licensing
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in order to get the rate of return,
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because what we are getting
from license fees
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is about 10 percent
of the landed value of the catch
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on the side of the wharf,
not in the retail shops.
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And we only get about 10 percent.
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What we have been trying
to do over the years
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is actually to increase
our participation in the industry,
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in the harvesting, in the processing,
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and eventually hopefully the marketing.
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They're not easy to penetrate,
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but we are working towards that,
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and yes, the answer would be to enhance.
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In order to increase our rate of return,
we have to become more involved.
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And so we've started doing that,
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and we have to restructure the industry.
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We've got to tell these people
that the world has changed.
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Now we want to produce the fish ourselves.
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CA: And meanwhile,
for your local fishermen,
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they are still able to fish,
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but what is business like for them?
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Is it getting harder?
Are the waters depleted?
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Or is that being run
on a sustainable basis?
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AT: For the artisanal fishery,
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we do not participate
in the commercial fishing activity
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except only to supply the domestic market.
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The tuna fishery is really
entirely for the foreign market,
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mostly here in the US, Europe, Japan.
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So I am a fisherman, very much,
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and I used to be able to catch yellowfin.
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Now it's very, very rare
to be able to catch yellowfin
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because they are being lifted
out of the water by the hundreds of tons
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by seiners.
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CA: So here's a couple
of beautiful girls from your country.
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I mean, as you think about their future,
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what message would you have for them
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and what message
would you have for the world?
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AT: Well, I've been telling the world
that we really have to do something
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about what is happening to the climate
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because for us, it's about
the future of these children.
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I have 12 grandchildren, at least.
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I think I have 12. My wife knows.
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(Laughter)
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And I think I have eight children.
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It's about their future.
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Every day I see my grandchildren,
about the same age as these young girls,
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and I do wonder,
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and I get angry sometimes, yes I do.
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I wonder what is to become of them.
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And so it's about them
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that we should be telling everybody,
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that it's not about
their own national interest,
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because climate change,
regrettably, unfortunately,
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is viewed by many countries
as a national problem. It's not.
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And this is the argument
we got into recently with our partners,
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the Australians and New Zealanders,
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because they said,
"We can't cut any more."
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This is what one of the leaders,
the Australian leader, said,
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that we've done our part,
we are cutting back.
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I said, "What about the rest?
Why don't you keep it?
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If you could keep
the rest of your emissions
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within your boundaries,
within your borders,
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we'd have no question.
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You can go ahead as much as you like.
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But unfortunately,
you're sending it our way,
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and it's affecting
the future of our children."
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And so surely I think that is the heart
of the problem of climate change today.
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We will be meeting in Paris
at the end of this year,
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but until we can think of this
as a global phenomenon,
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because we create it,
individually, as nations,
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but it affects everybody else,
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and yet, we refuse
to do anything about it,
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and we deal with it as a national problem,
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which it is not. It is a global issue,
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and it's got to be
dealt with collectively.
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CA: People are incredibly bad
at responding to graphs and numbers,
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and we shut our minds to it.
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Somehow, to people, we're slightly better
at responding to that sometimes.
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And it seems like it's
very possible that your nation,
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despite, actually because of
the intense problems you face,
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you may yet be the warning light
to the world that shines most visibly,
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most powerfully.
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I just want to thank you,
I'm sure, on behalf of all of us,
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for your extraordinary leadership
and for being here.
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Mr. President, thank you. AT: Thank you.
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(Applause)