James Baldwin Debates William F. Buckley (1965)

[music]

Narrator: The following program is from NET:
The National Educational Television Network.

Debate, James Baldwin Vs William Buckley.
Subject, "Has the American Dream Been

Achieved at the Expense of the American
Negro?"

This debate was held recently at the
Cambridge Union, Cambridge University

England, and was recorded for use by NET.

Norman St. John Stevas, M.P:
Well, here we are in the debating hall

of the Cambridge Union, hundreds of
undergraduates and myself waiting for what

could prove one of the most exciting
debates in the whole 150 years of the

union history.
It really... I don't think I have ever

seen the union so well attended.
There are undergraduates everywhere.

They're on the benches and on the floor
and on the galleries. And there are a lot

more outside clambering to get in.
Well, the motion that has drawn this huge

crowd tonight is this: That the American
Dream has been achieved at the expense

of the American negro. The debate will
open with two undergraduates speakers,

one from each side, and then we shall
have the first distinguished guest,

Mr James Baldwin. The well-known American
novelist who has achieved a world wide

fame with his novel "Another Country."
Then opposing the motion will be

Mr. William Buckley, also an American.
Very well-known as a conservative in the

United States. I must stress a conservative
in the American sense. Author of a book

called "Up from Liberalism" and editor of
the National Review. One of the earliest

reporters of Senator Goldwater.
Well, this is the setting of the debate,

and at any moment now, the president
will be leading in his officers and his

distinguished guests. He will take his
chair, and the debate will begin.

[applause]

The motion before the house tonight is
"The American Dream at the Expense of

the American Negro." The proposer,
Mr. David Haycock of Pembroke College,

and our opposer, Mr. Jeremy Burford of
Emmanuel College. Mr. James Baldwin

will speak third. Mr William Buckley Jr.
will speak fourth. Mr. Heycock has the

ear of the house.

[applause]

David Heycock: Mr. President, sir, it is
the custom of the house for the first

speaker in any debate to extend a
formal welcome to any visitors to the

house. I can honestly say however it is
a very great honor to be able to welcome

to the house this evening Mr. William
Buckley and Mr. James Baldwin.

Mr. William Buckley has the reputation
of possibly being the most articulate

conservative in the United States of
America. He was a graduate of Yale,

and he first gained a reputation for
himself by publishing a book called

"God and Man at Yale."

[laughter]

Since then, he has devoted himself to
the secular, and this has included

Norman Mailer, Kenneth Tynan, Mary McCarthy,
and Fidel Castro, none of whom have come

out of their confrontations unscathed.

[laughter]

At present, his principle occupation is
editing a right-wing newspaper in the

United States entitled
"The National Review."

Mr. James Baldwin is hardly in need of
introduction. His reputation both as a

novelist and as an advocate of civil rights
is international. His third novel

"Another Country" has been published as
a paperback in England today. Mr. Baldwin

and Mr. Buckley are both very welcome to
the house this evening.

[applause]

Imagine Mr. President a society which
above all values freedom and equality.

A society in which artificial barriers to
fulfillment and achievement are unheard

of. A society in which a man may begin his
life as a rail splitter and end it as president.

A society in which all men are free in
every sense of the word. Free to live

where they choose. Free to work where they
choose. Equal in the eyes of the law and

every public authority. And equal in the eyes
of their fellows. A society in fact which

intollerence and prejudice are meaningless
terms. Imagine; however, Mr. President, a

condition of this utopia has been a
persistent and quite deliberate

exploitation of one ninth of its
inhabitants. That one man in nine has

been denied his rights, which the rest
of that society takes for granted.

That one man in nine does not have
a chance for fulfillment or realization

of his innate potentiality. That one
man in nine cannot promise his

children a secure future and unlimited
opportunities. Imagine this Mr. President

and you have, what is in my opinion,
the bitter reality of the American Dream.

A few weeks ago Martin Luther King had
to hold a non-violent demonstration in

Selma, Alabama in his drive to register
negro voters. By the end of the week

of his demonstrations, he was able to
write quite accurately in a national

fundraising letter from Selma, Alabama
jail "There are more negros in prison

with me then there are on the voting
roles." When King wrote that letter,

three-hundred and thirty-five out of
thirty-two-thousand-seven-hundred

negros in Dallas had the vote.
One percent of the Dallas population.

After a mass march to the court house,
two-hundred-and-thirty-seven negros,

King among them, were arrested.
The following day, four-hundred-and

seventy children, who had deserted
their classrooms to protest against

King's arrest, were charged with juvenile
delinquency.

[laughter]

Thirty-six adults on the same day were
charged with contempt of court for

picketing the court house while
state circuit court was in session.

On the following day, a hundred-and
eleven people were arrested on the

same charge despite their claim that
they merely wanted to see the voting

registrar. Four-hundred students were
arrested and taken to the armory,

where many of them spent the night
on a cold cement floor. The following

date the demonstrations spread to
Marion, Alabama. In Marion, negros

outnumbered the whites by eleven-and
a-half thousand to six-thousand people

and yet, only three hundred are registered
to vote. Negros in Marion were anxious

to test the public accommodations section
of the civil rights law. They entered a

drug store and there they were served
with Coca Cola laced with salt and were

told that hamburgers had risen to five
dollars each. After the arrest of fifteen

negros for protesting against this
treatment, seven hundred negros

boycotted their classes the next day
and marched in orderly fashion to the

jail. There they sang civil rights songs
until they were warned by a state trooper

that they would be arrested if they sung
one more song. Of course, they sung

another song, and of course, all seven
hundred were arrested. American

society has felt fit to use negro labor.
It has felt fit to use the blood of the

negro in two world wars. It has felt fit to
listen to its music. It has felt fit to laught

at its jokes, and yet, as far as I am
concerned, it has never felt fit to

give the American negro a fair deal;
and for this reason Mr. President,

I will beg leave to propose the motion
that the American dream is at the expense

of the American negro.

[applause]

Unnamed Individual: I now call Mr. Jeremy Burford of Emmanuel College to oppose the motion.

[applause]

Narrator: Now, we have Mr. Jeremy
Burford of Emmanuel College who

is the first undergraduate opposing
the motion.

Jeremy Burford: James Baldwin is well
known as one of the most vivid and

articulate writers about the negro
problem in American. Mr. Baldwin

had a difficult childhood, and he
has personally himself suffered

discrimination and ill treatment
of a sort in American, and I would

like to say at this time that it is
not the purpose of this side of

the house to condone that in any
way at all. It is not our purpose to

oppose civil rights. It is our purpose
to oppose this motion. [audience: here here]

[laughter]

Thank you, sir. Come and collect
your fee afterwards.

[laughter and applause]

This side of the house denies that the
American dream has in any way been

helped by this undoubted inequality
and suffering of the negro.

We maintain in fact that this has hindered
the American Dream, and if there had

been equality, if there had been true
freedom of opportunity, the American

dream would be very much more advance
then it is now. If the American dream has

made any progress, and I think it has,
it has been made in spite of the suffering

and inequality of the American negro and
not because of it. Now it is also implied

in this motion that the American Dream is
encouraging and worsening the suffering

of the American negro. This is emphatically
not the case. The American Dream,

the American economic prosperity and
respect for civil liberties has been the

main factor in bringing about the undoubted
improvement in race relations in America

in the last twenty years; and Professor
Arnold Rose was the author of the "Negro

in America" which is perhaps the definitive
word on the subject, who is also a

contributor of what is called "The Freedom
Pamphlet". So I should imagine if he has

any bias at all, it is in favor of the negro.
He's said that this improvement in race

relations will be seen in years to come as
remarkably quick, and he has put it down

to three main causes: increased
industrialization and technical advance,

the increased social mobility of the
American people, and the economic

prosperity. And I would put it to this
house that that industrialization and

economic prosperity are two of the main
ingredients of the American dream and

at the same time--again, I do not want to
say that the negro in America is treated

fairly--but at the same time, the average
per capita income of negros in America

is exactly the same as the average per
capita income of people in Great Britain.

Now, I found that absolutely amazing.
I understand that some of you do as well;

so, I've got the reference here from the
United States News and World Report

of July the 22nd 1963, in which it points
out... [Man in the audience raises hand]

This will have to be the last interruption
I take because time is running short.

Audience member: Mr. Preston. Now a
point of information, is this being a talking

of real income or money income?
[Audience: here here, applause.]

I am talking of money income. I would not
wish to disguise that. I would also say that

in terms of this, there are only five
countries in the world where the income

is higher than that of the American negro,
and they do not include countries like

West Germany and France and Japan.
Now, there are in America thirty-five

negro millionaires. There are six thousand
doctors and so on. Now I do not by saying

this wish to emphasize that the negro is
fairly treated. I merely wish to try and

convey a more realistic and objective
account of the situation of the negro.

I agree that there are negros who are
very poor indeed, such as the old

gentlemen in the south who was talking
about some of his wealthier brethren

saying "Yes. Some of these rich negros
they put on airs like the bottom

figure of a fetch, and the bigger they try
to be the smaller they really are."

I would repeat Mr. President in the
last minute that I have that this debate

is not whether civil rights should be
extended to American negros or not;

if it were it would be a very easy
motion to argue for and a very easy

motion to vote for. The debate tonight
concerns whether the American Dream

is at the expense of the American negro.
That is where the American negro has paid

for the American dream with a suffering
or whether the American dream has

furthered the negro inequality, and
I would deny those things to precept.

I would say that negro inequality has
hindered the American dream, and

I would say that the American dream
has been very important in the in

furthering civil rights and in furthering
freedom for the American negro.

Mr. President, sir, I beg to oppose
the motion.

[applause]

Unnamed Individual: It is now with very
great pleasure and a very great sense of

honor that I call Mr. James Baldwin
to speak third to this motion.

[applause]

Narrator: Now we have Mr. James Baldwin,
the star of the evening, who has been

sitting, listening attentively and getting
a wonderful reception here in the

Cambridge Union. From members, enthusiasm
from all sides of the house for Mr. Baldwin,

who has been listening to the arguments.
Now will bring the voice of actual

experience to the debate.

James Baldwin: Good evening.

[laughter]

I find myself, not for the first time, in
the position of a kind of Jeremiah.

For example, I don’t disagree with
Mr. Burford that the inequality

suffered by the American Negro
population of the United States has hindered

the American dream. Indeed, it has.

I quarrell with some other things he
has to say. The other, deeper, element of

a certain awkwardness I feel has to do
with one’s point of view.

I have to put it that way – one’s sense,
one’s system of reality.

It would seem to me the proposition
before the House, and I would put it

that way, is the American Dream at the
expense of the American Negro,

or the American Dream is at
the expense of the American Negro.

Is the question hideously loaded,
and then one’s response to that question

– one’s reaction to that question –
has to depend on effect and, in effect,

where you find yourself in the world,
what your sense of reality is,

what your system of reality is.
That is, it depends on assumptions which

we hold so deeply so as to
be scarcely aware of them.

Are white South African or
Mississippi sharecropper, or

Mississippi sheriff, or a Frenchman
driven out of Algeria, all have, at bottom,

a system of reality which compels
them to, for example, in the case of the

French exile from Algeria, to offend
French reasons from having ruled Algeria.

The Mississippi or Alabama sheriff,
who really does believe, when he’s facing

a Negro boy or girl, that this woman,
this man, this child must be insane to

attack the system to which he owes
his entire identity. Of course, to

such a person, the proposition which
we are trying to discuss here tonight

does not exist. And on the other hand,
I, have to speak as one of the people

who’ve been most attacked by what
we now must here call the Western or

European system of reality. What white
people in the world, what we call

white supremacy – I hate to say it here
– comes from Europe.

That's how it got to America. Beneath
then, whatever one’s reaction to this

proposition is, has to be the question
of whether or not civilizations can

be considered, as such, equal, or
whether one’s civilization has the right

to overtake and subjugate, and, in fact,
to destroy another.

Now, what happens when that happens.
Leaving aside all the physical facts that

one can quote. Leaving aside, rape
or murder. Leaving aside the bloody

catalog of oppression, which we
are in one way too familiar with already,

what this does to the subjugated,
the most private, the most serious

thing this does to the subjugated,
is to destroy his sense of reality.

It destroys, for example, his father’s
authority over him. His father can no

longer tell him anything, because
the past has disappeared, and his

father has no power in the world.
This means, in the case of an

American Negro, born in that
glittering republic, and the moment you

are born, since you don’t
know any better,

every stick and stone and
every face is white.

And since you have not yet seen a mirror, you suppose that you

are, too. It comes as a great shock around the age of 5, or 6, or 7, to discover that the flag to which you have pledged allegiance, along with everybody else, has not pledged allegiance to you. It comes as a great shock to discover that Gary Cooper killing off the Indians, when you were rooting for Gary Cooper, that the Indians were you. It comes as a great shock to discover that the country which is your birthplace and to which you owe your life and your identity, has not, in its whole system of reality, evovled any place for you. The disaffection, the demoralization, and the gap between one person and another only on the basis of the color of their skin, begins there and accelerates – accelerates throughout a whole lifetime – to the present when you realize you’re thirty and are having a terrible time managing to trust your countrymen. By the time you are thirty, you have been through a certain kind of mill. And the most serious effect of the mill you’ve been through is, again, not the catalog of disaster, the policemen, the taxi drivers, the waiters, the landlady, the landlord, the banks, the insurance companies, the millions of details, twenty four hours of every day, which spell out to you that you are a worthless human being. It is not that. It’s by that time that you’ve begun to see it happening, in your daughter or your son, or your niece or your nephew.