A radical plan to end plastic waste

Chris Anderson: So you've been
obsessed with this problem

for the last few years.

What is the problem, in your own words?

Andrew Forrest: Plastic.

Simple as that.

Our inability to use it for the tremendous
energetic commodity that it is

and just throw it away.

CA: And so we see waste everywhere.

At its extreme, it looks a bit like this.

I mean, where was this picture taken?

AF: That's in the Philippines,

and you know there's a lot of rivers,
ladies and gentlemen,

which look exactly like that.

There's 169 in Sri Lanka alone,

and that's the Philippines,

so it's all over Southeast Asia.

CA: So plastic is thrown into the rivers,

and from there of course
it ends up in the ocean.

I mean, we obviously
see it on the beaches,

but that's not even your main concern.

It's what's actually happening to it
in the oceans. Talk about that.

AF: OK, so look, thank you Chris.

About four years ago,

I thought I'd do something
really barking crazy,

and I committed to a PhD
in marine ecology,

and the scary part about that was,

sure I learned a lot about marine life
but it taught me more about marine death

and the extreme mass ecological fatality
of fish, of marine life, marine mammals,

very close biology to us,

which are dying in the millions
if not trillions that we can't count

at the hands of plastic.

CA: But people think of plastic
as ugly but stable.

Right? You throw something in the ocean,
hey it'll just sit there forever,

can't do any damage, right?

AF: See, Chris, it's an incredible
substance designed for the economy.

It is the worst substance possible
for the environment.

The worst thing about plastics
as soon as it hits the environment

is that it fragments.

It never stops being plastic.

It breaks down smaller
and smaller and smaller,

and the breaking science on this, Chris,

which we've known in marine ecology
for a few years now,

but it's going to hit humans.

Marine mammals, 99.9 percent
same biology as us.

We are aware now that nanoplastic,

the very, very small particles of plastic

carrying their negative charge can go
straight through the pores of your skin.

That's not the bad news.

The bad news is that it goes
straight through the blood-brain barrier,

that protective coating which is there
to protect your brain.

Your brain's a little amorphous wet mass

full of little electrical charges.

You put a negative particle into that,

particularly a negative particle
which can carry pathogens,

so you have a negative charge,
it attracts positive charge elements

like pathogens, toxins,

mercury, lead.

That's the breaking science
we're going to see in the next 12 months.

CA: So already I think you told me
that there's like 600 plastic bags or so

for every fish that size
in the ocean, something like that.

AF: Yeah.

CA: And they're breaking down

and there's going to be ever more of them

and we haven't even seen the start
of the consequences of that.

AF: No, we really haven't.

The ?? Foundation,
they're a bunch of good scientists,

we've been working with them for a while,
I've completely verified their work,

they say there will be
one ton of plastic, Chris,

for every three tons of fish, by not 2050,

and I really get impatient with people
who talk about 2050, by 2025.

That's around the corner.

That's just the here and now.

You don't need one ton of plastic
to completely wipe out marine life.

Less than that is going
to do a fine job at it.

So we have to end it straightaway.
We've got no time.

CA: OK, so you have an idea for ending it,

and you're coming at this

not as a typical environmental
campaigner, I would say,

but as a businessmen,
as an entrepreneur,

who has lived, you've spent
your whole life thinking

about global economic systems
and how they work,

and if I understand it right,

your idea depends on heroes
who look something like this.

What's her profession?

AF: She, Chris, is a ragpicker,

and there were 15, 20 million
rag pickers like her

until China stopped taking
everyone's waste

and the price of plastic,
minuscule that it was, collapsed.

That led to people like her,

which now she is a child

who is a schoolchild.

She should be at school.

That's probably very akin to slavery.

My daughter Grace and I have met
hundreds of people like her.

CA: And there are many adults as well,
literally millions around the world,

and in some industries,

they actually account for the fact
that for example we don't see

a lot of metal waste in the world.

AF: That's exactly right.

That little girl is in fact
the hero of the environment.

She's in competition with
a great big petrochemical plant

which is just down the road,

the three and a half billion dollar
petrochemical plant.

That's the problem.

We've got more oil and gas
in plastic and landfill

than we have in the entire oil and gas
resources of the United States.

So she is the hero,

and that's what that landfill looks like,
ladies and gentlemen,

and it's solid oil and gas.

CA: So there's huge value
potentially locked up in there

that the world's ragpickers
would if they could make a living from,

but why can't they?

AF: Because we have ingrained in us

a price of plastic from fossil fuels

which sits just under what it takes

to economically and profitably
recycle plastic from plastic.

All plastic is is building blocks
from oil and gas.

Plastic's a hundred percent polymer
which is a hundred percent oil and gas,

and you know we've got
enough plastic in the world

for all our needs,

and when we recycle plastic,

if we can't recycle it cheaper
than fossil fuel plastic,

then of course the world
just sticks to fossil fuel plastic.

CA: So if that's the fundamental problem,

the price of recycled plastic

is usually more than the price of
just buying it made fresh from more oil.

That's the fundamental problem.

AF: A slight tweak
of the rules here, Chris.

I'm a commodity person.

I understand that we used to have
scrap metal and rubbish iron

and bits of copper lying
all round the villages,

particularly in the developing world.

And people worked out it's got a value.

It's actually an article of value,

not of waste.

Now, the villages and the cities
and the streets are clean,

you don't trip over scrap copper
or scrap iron now,

because it's an article of value.
It gets recycled.

CA: So what's your idea, then,
to try to change that in plastics?

AF: OK, so Chris,

for most part of that PhD
I've been doing research,

and the good thing about being
a businessperson who's done OK at it

is that people want to see you.

Other businesspeople,

even if you're kind of

a bit of a zoo animal species
they'd like to check out,

they'll, OK, I'll meet Twiggy Forrest.

And so once you're in there,

you can interrogate them,

and I've been to most of oil and gas

and fast-moving consumer good
companies in the world,

and there is a real will to change.

I mean, there's a couple of dinosaurs

who are going to hope
for the best and do nothing,

but there's a real will to change.

So what I've been discussing is

the seven and a half billion
people in the world

don't actually deserve to have
their environment smashed by plastic,

their oceans rendered depopulated
or barren of sea life because of plastic.

So you count down on that chain,

and there's tens of thousands of brands
which we all buy heaps of products from,

but then there's only a hundred
major resin producers,

big petrochemical plants

that spew out all the plastic
which is single use.

CA: So one hundred companies

are right at the base
of this food chain, as it were.

AF: Yeah.

CA: And so what do you need
those one hundred companies to do?

AF: OK, so we need them

to simply raise the value

of the building blocks of plastic
from oil and gas,

which I call bad plastic,

raise the value of that

so that when it spreads through the brands
and onto us, the customers,

we won't barely even notice
an increase in our coffee cup

or Coke or Pepsi, or anything.

CA: Like, what, like a cent extra?

AF: Less. Quarter of a cent, half a cent.

It'll be absolutely minimal,

but what it does,

it makes every bit of plastic
all over the world an article of value.

Where you have the waste worst,

say Southeast Asia, India,

that's where the wealth is most.

CA: OK, so it feels like
there's two parts to this.

One is, if they will charge more money

but carve out that excess

and pay it into what, a fund
operated by someone

to tackle this problem of, what?

What would that money be use for,
that they charge the extra for?

AF: So when I speak
to really big businesses,

I say, "Look, I need you to change
and I need you to change really fast,"

their eyes are going
to peel over in boredom

unless I say, "And it's good business."

"OK, now you've got my attention, Andrew."

So I say, "Right, I need you to make
a contribution to an environmental

and industry transition fund.

Over two or three years,

the entire global plastics industry

can transition from getting
its building blocks from fossil fuel

to getting its building blocks
from plastic. The technology is out there.

It's proven.

I've taken two multi-billion dollar
operations from nothing

recognizing that
the technology can be scaled.

I see at least a dozen technologies
in plastic to handle all types of plastic.

So once those technologies
have an economic margin,

which this gives them,

that's where the global public
will get all their plastic from,

from existing plastic.

CA: So every sale of virgin plastic

contributes money to a fund

that is used to basically
transition the industry

and start to pay for things
like cleanup and other pieces.

AF: Absolutely. Absolutely.

CA: And it has the incredible side benefit
which is maybe even the main benefit

of creating a market.

It suddenly makes recyclable plastic

a giant business that can unlock
millions of people around the world

to find a new living collecting it.

AF: Yeah, exactly.

So all you do

is you've got fossil fuel
plastics at this value

and recycled plastic at this level.

You change it

so recycled plastic is cheaper
than fossil fuel plastics.

The world goes to fossil fuel plastics.

What I love about this most, Chris,

is that, you know,

we waste into the environment

300, 350 million tons of plastic.

On the oil and gas
industry's own accounts,

it's going to grow to 500 million tons.

This is an accelerating problem.

But every ton of that is polymer.

Polymer is a thousand dollars,
1,500 dollars a ton.

That's half a trillion dollars

which could go into business

and could great jobs and opportunities

and wealth right across the world,

particularly in the most impoverished,

yet we throw it away.

CA: So this would allow the big companies
to invest in recycling plants

literally all over the world,

where the plastic is over the world.

AF: Because the technology
is low capital cost,

you can put it in at rubbish dumps,
at the bottom of big hotels,

garbage depots, everywhere,

turn that waste into resin.

CA: Now, you're a philanthropist

and you're ready to commit
some of your own wealth to this.

What is the role of philanthropy
in this project?

AF: I think what we have to do

is kick in the 40 to 50 million US dollars

to get it going

and then we have to create
absolute transparency

so everyone can see
exactly what's going on,

from the resin producer
to the brands to the consumers,

everyone gets to see
who is playing the game,

who is protecting the Earth,
and who doesn't care,

and that'll cost about
a million dollars a week,

and we're going to underwrite
that for five years.

Total contribution is circa
300 million US dollars.

CA: Wow.

Now --

(Applause)

You've talked about the companies,
like to the Coca-Colas of this world,

who are willing to do this,
they're willing to pay a higher price,

they would like to pay a higher price

so long as it's fair.

AF: Yeah, it's fair.

So Coca-Cola wouldn't
like Pepsi to play ball

unless the whole world knew
that Pepsi wasn't playing ball.

Then they don't care.

So it's that transparency of the market

where if people try and cheat the system,

the market can see it,
the consumers can see it.

The consumers want a role to play in this.

Seven and a half billion of us.

We don't want our world smashed
by a hundred companies.

CA: Well, so tell us, you've said
what the companies can do

and what you're willing to do.

What can people listening do?

AF: OK, so I would like all of us,

all around the world,

to go a website called noplasticwaste.org.

You contact your hundred resin producers

which are in your region.

You will have at least one

within an email or a twitter
or a telephone contact from you,

and let them know that you would like them
to make a contribution to a fund

which industry can manage
or the World Bank can manage.

It raises tens of billions
of dollars per year

so you can transition the industry
to getting all its plastic from plastic,

not from fossil fuel.

We don't need that.
That's bad. This is good.

And it can clean up the environment.

We've got enough capital there,

we've got tens of billions
of dollars, Chris, per annum

to clean up the environment.

CA: You're in the recycling business.

Isn't this a conflict of interest for you,

or rather a huge business
opportunity for you?

AF: Yeah, look, I'm in
the iron ore business,

and I compete against
the scrap metal business,

and that's why you don't have any scrap
lying around the trip over,

and cut your toe on,
because it gets collected.

CA: This isn't your excuse
to go into the plastic recycling business.

AF: No, I am going to cheer for this boom.

This will be the internet
of plastic waste.

This will be a boom industry
which will spread all over the world,

and particularly where poverty is worst
because that's where the rubbish is most,

and that's the resource,

so I'm going to cheer for it
and stand back.

CA: Twiggy, we're in an era

where so many people around the world
are craving a new, regenerative economy,

these big supply chains,
these big industries

to fundamentally transform.

It strikes me as a giant idea,

and you're going to need a lot of people

cheering you on your way
to make it happen. Thank you --

AF: Thank you Chris. Thank you so much.

(Applause)