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Khuda se Mutaliq Sawalat aur Ilm al Kalam ka Jawab - Part 2 - Javed Ahmed Ghamidi

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    Khuda se Mutaliq Sawalat aur Ilm
    al Kalam ka Jawab - PART 2
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    by Jawed Ahmad Ghamidi
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    [Hassan Ilyas] Yesterday, I asked you a
    question related to hypothetical statements
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    that we often use in relation to God,
    nauzubillah (I seek refuge with Allah)
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    that Allah can lie, or God can make a rock
    that even he cannot lift.
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    You detailed out your views on these
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    There is a parallel aspect to it as well
    as a doubt,
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    I want you to explain it to us in detail.
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    When you are in a discussion related to
    the existence of God,
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    the argument behind confirmation for
    God's being,
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    or the various aspects of atheism or
    agnosticism that are put forward.
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    It is said that you logically conclude
    the arguments with intellectual evidence.
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    And the other party to the discussion is
    puzzled with your style.
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    My question to you today is that,
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    Even you include these intellectual
    evidences & arguments in your discussions,
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    Also, there is a difficulty, I would request
    if you can include it in your answer
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    People often say that Ghamidi Sahib
    conversation is very rational,
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    logical, enlightened and intellectual.
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    So, even your paradigm answers
    these modern suspicion or doubt
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    by way of intellectual and logical
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    Then what about simple, inherent
    arguments given by the Quran
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    as you often say?
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    [Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Don't you consider
    the inherent arguments given
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    by the Quran as logical?
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    What I had earlier mentioned was that,
    things that evolve from a specific
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    philosophical or logical background.
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    People present these questions just to have
    a sense of enjoyment from the religion.
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    These are the things that clearly convey
    that your addressee does not have the
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    perceptive, attitude, or an acumen of
    interest to understand or
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    dive into something of this imperative
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    In that case you should try to ignore or
    neglect that uninterested audience. (?)
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    Arguments will be have there own
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    The Quran itself is an example of
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    But what sort of reasoning?
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    I had explained that argumentation only.
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    I have often presented this reasoning,
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    Infact, I have penned it down
    in my book Meezan.
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    If you read the topic of
    "Believe in Allah" in my book, Meezan.
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    I have explained in detail that how
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    God has presented arguments
    on his own essence.
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    That is the argumentation that I term
    as Fitri "simple" reasoning.
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    The argumentation that is based on the
    intellect of common people.
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    Its evident that when we focus our
    attention towards God, and say that
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    look around the world, try to comprehend
    what is around you,
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    try to look at your own existence and
    understand how God has bestowed
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    different abilities and wisdom to
    different creatures in the universe.
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    So, are they only trying to find reasons?
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    I was actually trying to explain the way
    of reasoning.
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    I have never said that you should
    accept the religious cases
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    without proper reasoning.
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    Rather, I was trying to throw light on
    how the Quran educates us
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    to find logic in the religion and
    religious affairs.
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    There are two types of things: the
    first one is the knowledge that is
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    limited to our own understanding, and
    the discussion of argument is either
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    based on either observation or experience.
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    In fact this way of argumentation
    is also adopted in the religion.
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    For instance, there are few things that
    have been prohibited in the religion.
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    Why these things are prohibited in the
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    What is the basis of it?
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    If you can base your argument on
    why certain things are prohibited
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    in the religion on experience or
    observation then you can do that.
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    Certain things are related to the world
    that is hidden from us and
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    we cannot see it, or else we cannot
    observe or experience it.
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    Similarly, same is the case with the being
    of God.
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    Although, it is not possible the God can
    be shown or else you can
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    be called up into the heavens to observe
    God or his being.
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    So, here in this case we can make
    logical conclusions.
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    How does the Quran educate us as
    to how we can make a
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    deductive inference in relation to God?
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    The methods employed by our eminent
    Scholars and the experts of logic
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    do not relate to what has been
    mentioned in the Quran.
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    Of course I was not having a detailed
    discussion at that point in time you
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    had asked me a question and I was
    answering that.
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    In reality, ancient philosophy paved the
    way for discussions and
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    assumptions in this matter.
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    If you pay attention, modern
    science has rejected all of these.
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    These things were neither based
    on experience nor observation,
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    then what was the basis of
    these things.
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    For instance, look at the philosophy of
    idealism by Plato,
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    even Aristotle denied it immediately
    after him.
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    And he clarified that in the philosophy
    of idealism,
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    ideas or mental images are considered at
    par with reality.
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    If we try to culminate all the
    philosophies of metaphysics in one word,
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    then this is it (((?))).
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    In the philosophy of idealism, majorly
    mental state or circumstances are
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    considered as real.
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    And there has been such a logical
    connection among the mental state
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    and the reality which corresponds to that
    of a fictional author.
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    What does he do?
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    He creates the plot, circumstances out of
    his own intellectual imagination and
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    also tries to visualize the characters
    from his mental images and creates
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    such a mutual relationship that while
    we read a novel or a story we feel
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    like we are living a real world and
    all the characters in it are real.
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    Therefore, the philosophy of metaphysics
    which was even adopted by the masters
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    of Sufism was based on these fancy
    imaginative interpretations.
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    [Ilyas] Please elaborate about takhayul
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    [Ghamidi] Those things that do that
    encompass your experience or observation,
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    it is an imaginative world that you create
    on your own.
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    All of poetry is based on Takhayul
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    Imagination has its own beauty, but
    only for poetry.
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    Not for the discovery of facts and
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    So, when this method was adopted then
    these sort of logical questions were also
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    included in it, i.e. to measure the
    divinity of God.
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    To reproach the knowledge of God.
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    To connect the existence of God
    in retain to space and time.
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    I have quite often tried to throw some
    light and make people pay attention
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    to these sort of things.
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    "Ayaz Qadr-e-Khud Ba-Shanas"
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    The Quran has taught us a great lesson,
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    When people started to raise questions
    on a very serious issue then the Quran
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    gave a response to it in a conflux.
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    wama uteetum minal-ilmi illa qaleela
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    i.e religion never proclaims that
    "come we will show you God"
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    You would experience the divinity
    of God.
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    Or else come to us and we have the
    capability to let you observe
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    some of the attributes of Allah in
    the heavens.
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    We can inscribe the existence of God
    by way of a sketch in front of you.
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    None of this is real, rather the Quran
    clearly states that
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    Neither is none that can be compared
    with Allah,
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    And if there is none like him,
    Laysa kamithlihi shay'uw,
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    then how can you employ the
    concept of similitude?
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    And without presumption and similitude,
    how can you define something which
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    can neither be experienced or
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    Therefore, the Quran has guided us that
    a person should be taught from a point
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    wherein he has developed the innate
    qualities of thinking about God.
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    Like his existence, creatures,
    existence of wisdom in the creatures,
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    manifestation of nature,
    manifestation of divinity,
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    manifestation of mercy in them.
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    When a person tries to see this
    world, the more he dives into it,
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    the sooner he accepts that there must
    be a creator of this universe.
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    It is pertinent to mention that
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    "It does not mean that, there is
    a creator" but there should be creator.
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    Only after that the call of the
    Prophets make sense to him.
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    After that he comes to know about
    the inception, power, knowledge
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    of Allah, as there is no other
    intellectual method for it.
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    Prophets educate and introduce us in this
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    I had earlier explained that we
    must adopt this method,
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    I tend to find reasons behind everything,
    but what is the procedure for it?
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    It is similar to the fact that people
    used to argue that
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    how can revelations be supported by
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    How can it be?
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    A Prophet has an experience.
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    God tried to establish a connect with
    a person,
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    by appointing someone to develop
    that relation.
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    The way something becomes an observation
    for us, likewise many verses are
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    an act of observation for him.
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    Which among the aforementioned things are
    ever shown to us by the Prophet?
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    Then what do we see?
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    We listen to the voice and speech of
    the Prophet.
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    We look at the character of the Prophet.
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    We listen and observe the instructions
    about the religion from the Prophet.
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    And after analyzing the extraordinary
    character, personality and knowledge
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    of the Prophet, it becomes evident and
    difficult to deny that he can be no other
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    than someone speaking for God.
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    And when this thing is established
    then, Rohe awaz e payambar mojziha ast
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    and only after that he brings
    the instructions of God to people.
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    And proclaims that he receives revelations
    from God,
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    he claims to have seen the angels.
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    None of this requires a valid or logical
    argument for its justification.
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    However, this simple narration is
    explained to all, that when God
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    appoints his Prophet and declares that
    he is the creator of this world.
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    Then whatever instruction God would give,
    they would not be beyond his power.
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    If he created me, and thousands like me,
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    God even claims to have created djinns
    and Angels.
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    God talks about the capabilities bestowed
    upon his angels.
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    God talks about the way he created djinn.
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    What the reason to not accept this?
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    But, if in this case we try to apply the
    logical argumentation to prove the genie,
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    then it would be wrong method employed.
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    Unfortunately, in our traditions these
    methods were adopted in order to
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    restrain the speaker by asking questions
    based on logical argumentation.
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    That is the reason all this become
    meaningless and spiritless in the history.
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    You can't find anything of this sort now,
    otherwise it should been a part of
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    discussion, having a status of
    factual reality.
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    What is still in practice?
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    The innate argument of the Quran.
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    It makes you think about your
    internal values,
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    it helps you with the explanation
    of submission to God.
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    Its says that if the remembrance of the
    Quran is absorbed in you, but its signs
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    could have been found in your existence.
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    And the Quran guide you to walk through
    these signs,
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    introduces the creators creatures,
    likewise with the the universe.
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    If you look in the Quran.
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    The Quran presents a beautiful model of
    every thing by way of deductive logic
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    and/or intellectual argumentation.
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    This aforementioned argumentation is
    sensual, deductive as well as a part of
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    personal argument, when the Prophet
    manifests his Prophet hood. ((?))
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    This is the argument that I have explained
    in great detail and I have even enumerated
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    this argument in my book Meezan.
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    Where in my speech or in my book,
    have I detailed out anything of this sort
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    in sync with what the scholars of
    religion say.
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    Did I ever say anything like,
    If God can lie or not?
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    [Ilyas] Thank You Ghamidi Sahab.
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    You have beautifully detailed out
    your point of view.
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    In the last few seconds, I want you to
    please comment on this as a whole.
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    In our society when some of our modern
    intellectuals and philosophers adopted
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    this interpretation. Many religious
    scholars rejects their interpretation
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    if it dint appear to be in sync with their
    logical understanding. For instance,
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    Djin, Heaven and hell, like we discussed
    the works of Sir Syed, and others.
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    Is it the same reason that they just have
    a scope of one possibility,
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    There is no room for any other
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    and therefore they reject it.
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    [Ghamidi] Exactly, this is the case.
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    The Quran has made it amply clear as to
    how to know the limits of your knowledge,
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    to what degree one can rely on
    deductive logic.
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    To what extend you have to pay attention
    towards your inner self and find
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    the innate level of science that existed
    within you.
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    And to find the place where the Prophets
    would guide you further.
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    Each of these aforementioned situations
    have a level of intellectual argument
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    and when this argument is ascertained
    only then you enter the world of
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    observation and experience.
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    This is matter of method,
    which method is to be employed?
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    The method of argumentation mentioned
    in the Quran must be adopted.
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    This method was adopted by Maulana
    Ameen Ahsan Islahi in his books,
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    like in Haqeeqat-e-Shirk,
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    This method was adopted in the
    deliberation of the Quran.
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    We can find a lot of examples of these
    adopted methods,
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    in the works of knowledgeable people.
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    I have also adopted the same method.
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    It is a way to heal your heart.
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    It becomes a message from God for
    the existence of humanity.
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    The Quran has taught us this method.
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    Therefore, I have tired to focus your
    attention on the
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    way of arguments based on the Quran.
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    Why would I not emphasis on the
    arguments that are backed by the Quran.
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    I keep on saying that Quran is
    complete and satisfactory
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    for all its cases.
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    We need not to focus our attention
    towards anything else.
Khuda se Mutaliq Sawalat aur Ilm al Kalam ka Jawab - Part 2 - Javed Ahmed Ghamidi

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