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Hello.
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Hi there.
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I am Julia Clark Kennedy, and I’m
one of the BDA outreach workers.
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Could you introduce yourself please?
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I am Lisa Karlsson. Thank you for
inviting me to come and talk to you.
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Welcome and thank you.
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I want to chat about something that
relates to the BSL (Scotland) Act 2015,
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under the strand of education.
Can you tell us a bit about yourself
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and your university course?
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Sure, I am currently at university
studying to become a social worker
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on a BA honours course. I am in my final
year and should graduate this June.
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Altogether I have been
studying for five years.
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Wow. Very impressive.
Well done you!
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Thank you.
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I was just wondering, thinking back to
the start of your university days,
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did you feel that the journey ahead
of you would be an easy one?
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Or were you anticipating difficulties in
terms of access as a Deaf person?
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A bit of both really. On the one hand,
I thought some things would be difficult,
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but on the other hand, there were
things I was not worried about,
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for example, I was very motivated to
study the subject and was really keen
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to become a social worker,
so I wasn’t worried about that.
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I did anticipate that there would
be barriers for me as a Deaf person.
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Going back to the beginning,
I started with an HNC at college.
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Interpreters were provided there
and that worked pretty well.
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The only gripe I had really was that the
college picked their own interpreters,
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so I did not get to express a preference
for who I wanted to work with.
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I did have my own preferred interpreters
but had to work with the interpreters the
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college supplied and that
was difficult at times.
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I’m guessing you wanted to work with
people who are familiar with your
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signing and the course content?
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Exactly. People who I had already
worked with and gelled well with.
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I ended up with lots of different people
who were brought in by the college and
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that was quite a struggle at times,
but it wasn’t awful.
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I did try explaining that it would be better
if I could choose my own interpreters,
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people I knew who could meet my
requirements, but the college would only
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agree to me picking one and
they chose the other one.
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I’m not sure why they decided that.
That was how things were at the start.
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The BSL (Scotland) Act 2015 has been useful.
I was able to use the legislation to push
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for my rights, since my language
was now a recognised language.
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After I explained why I felt it was important,
they did agree to me picking one interpreter.
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And that was my first year.
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And then you went on to university.
How was it there? Was it better than college?
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Or did you face the same difficulties?
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It was much better at university in my
view, because university offers a higher
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standard of education. The HNC course,
which I did really enjoy, was my first
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experience of studying in a hearing environment.
Previously I had been to a Deaf college,
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so this was the first time I had studied
alongside hearing students.
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It was the first time I had encountered
those barriers to learning.
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By the time I got to university I had
already been through a year’s experience
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at college, so I was prepared. I started
university in September 2019,
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but attended a meeting prior to
starting, with the lecturers.
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I was the only Deaf person
there and I felt very anxious.
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Did you have an interpreter?
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Yes, yes there was an interpreter there.
It was an interesting meeting, but I could
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see that some of the lecturers were a little
unsure of me, they didn’t know what to
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make of me as a Deaf person.
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Do you think they were concerned
whether you could do the course?
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I can’t say for sure, but maybe, yes.
I told them that I understood the
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social work degree was obviously a
professional course and I was aware of
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the expectations, and it was the
profession that I wanted to get into.
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They had already offered me a place,
so I was definitely going to be coming.
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I suggested that they arrange for some
Deaf awareness training before I started,
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well on my first day actually, so that
my classmates could attend it too.
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I felt that would mean there was less
chance of being singled out or avoided
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and it would reduce the
chance of discrimination.
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They were agreeable to that, and
because of the BSL (Scotland) Act,
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which recognises my language and my
rights as a Deaf person to interpreters
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and equal access, etc., they were
agreeable to doing this. I think they were
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just unsure how I would get on. We agreed
that I would see how my first year went,
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and if it was too much of a struggle,
we would discuss whether I would stay
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or change to another course. I thought
that was fair enough. I also had some
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some uncertainty if I am honest about
my ability to cope with the course.
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I figured we would just see how it went.
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So, on my first day I arrived and a
Deaf awareness trainer came in to deliver
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the training. I struggled with that a bit
actually, because previously I had worked
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in the University as a BSL tutor and
Deaf awareness trainer, but this time
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I was on the receiving end, as a student.
I just had to sit there and keep quiet and
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let the tutor get on with it. It went well
though and I felt that it offered me some
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level of support. I navigated my first year
successfully. There were struggles.
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For example, on the Social Work course,
you have to choose some elective modules.
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I opted for an education module because
I figured if I liked it, perhaps I could change
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tack and become a teacher. Anyway, I didn’t
like it. Absolutely hated it. I realised it really
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wasn’t for me. The lecturer for that module
was older and not very Deaf aware at all.
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They had not participated in the
Deaf awareness training because the
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module sat as part of a different
course in another department.
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One day in class, I was there with my
two interpreters and the lecturer came
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over to talk to the student sitting
next to me. One of my interpreters
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came over to interpret their conversation,
and the lecturer told them to stop signing
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because it was a private conversation.
I was rather taken aback by this.
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It was my first experience of discrimination,
so I responded, saying that if it was a private
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conversation, it might be better if they
took it into the hallway when nobody
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could overhear them. There were obviously
other students around who were within
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listening distance, but they
were not asked to move.
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I said it was not right to exclude me,
but they repeated their request for the
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interpreter to stop signing and
ask the interpreter to move away.
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I was raging by this point, so when the
class finished, I approached the lecturer
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again and said that it was not okay to
do that, and that it was discriminatory.
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I felt I had to challenge their behaviour.
They can’t just block my interpretation
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of what is being said when other students
have access to it. So that was my first
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negative experience.
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It's good that you were able to be
assertive though.
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I was assertive, but I had to be.
I had to challenge that point and
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just hold onto it. It was discrimination
and I was right to challenge it.
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I was not aggressive or rude but saw it
more as an educational opportunity,
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a learning point for them to understand
it really was not something they should
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ever do. Anyway, during that first year there
were a few other instances, but I did feel
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that the University had my
back and was supportive.
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How did you use the BSL (Scotland)
Act 2015? How did you use it to get
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people to change their practice and
behaviour and accept their responsibilities?
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Really, the BSL Act required education
centres have to have BSL plans which
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they have to follow, which helped.
Also, I feel that the Act protects me,
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it acts as a barrier. Before we had it,
there was nothing, but now I have
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something to direct people to.
I can point out the Act and highlight
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the fact that I have language rights
under the Act. I have the right to
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an interpreter, and you can’t take that
away; the same with a notetaker,
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because that’s what the Act says.
When I have brought up the Act defence
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of my rights, often people have never
heard of it, so I have had to educate them.
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And these are social workers were
talking about, people who work within
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the Deaf community. They should know
about this, and often they don’t, although
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they are interested. The BSL (Scotland)
Act 2015 is well known within the University now,
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because I have made sure
that everybody is aware of it.
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Do you feel that the university now
has improved because of you?
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Well really, the university is a big place
with lots of different departments so
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it’s a lot of work to get everybody up to
speed on, so I would not say there has
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been a 100% improvement across-the-board.
That would be too difficult to achieve because
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there are always new members of
staff being recruited. There is a lot
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of staff turnover. I would say though
that over the four years I have
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been at university I have spent
considerable time educating people
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about the BSL Act. I had to do the
same when I was on placement.
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I had two placements, which were
important because they prove my fitness
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to practice as a social worker. At my first
placement, I pushed for Deaf awareness
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training when I started.
I wanted people to understand that they
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could trust that I was up to the job.
I had an interpreter with me so had
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access to communication and was
able to understand everything just fine.
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I wanted them to understand that my
brain works fine, and I am capable of
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doing the job with appropriate
adjustments. My second placement was
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more statutory, involving councils and
government at quite a high level.
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The department was very busy and
work had to be turned over quickly.
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I felt that my first placement, which was
within the third sector, was much more
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laid-back than the second placement.
I had supervisors in both places, but in
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my second placement, supervision was much
less frequent. The second placement was
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the final opportunity for me to show
my fitness to practice. I was there for
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six months through the summer last year
and I confess I was nervous. I explained
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that I was Deaf and would be working
with an interpreter. I knew that I would
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have to prepare them for that.
On my first placement, my supervisior
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informed my case clients that I was Deaf
and asked if they were prepared to work
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with me or not, so they were given a
choice and entered into a voluntary
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agreement to work with me if they
chose to do so. On the second placement,
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this did not happen. Cases were allocated
to me whether people liked it or not.
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That gave me a taste of how
I would manage in the real world.
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Before I made first contact with any
cases I would contact them to inform
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them I was Deaf, and would be
attending with an interpreter.
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I wanted to be open about this and
invite any questions beforehand.
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It was really difficult, but I feel that the
first few weeks were the hardest and
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then it became easier, and I was more
able to just get on with it fairly quickly.
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You started from scratch really, in terms
of educating those who you were working with.
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I can understand how it must have been
difficult at the start, particularly given that
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you were trying to educate professionals,
lecturers, teachers, social workers and so on.
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I would imagine that the next Deaf student
on that course will definitely find things a
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bit easier. I’m sure you’ve opened
a lot of doors for them.
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Well it’s lucky for them really. It’s nice
that something positive has come from this.
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I learned a lot from my time at university,
but I think the university learnt a lot from me too.
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There was definitely a collaboration.
When I finish my dissertation in April,
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the university has asked me to work with
them on a new project for improving BSL access.
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There is another Deaf student on the
Social Work course now so it’s really
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positive that Deaf people feel able
to come and train here.
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I do feel like I have opened a lot of doors
as you say, during my time here.
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It’s good that might help others who follow.
I do hope though that as lecturers and
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students are replaced with new faces that
the university does not go back to square one.
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I hope that the information they have
learned from me will stay and become embedded.
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It’s been really lovely talking to you Lisa.
Thank you so much for coming.
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Such an inspirational story. You’ve done
amazingly well. Congratulations.
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Thank you.
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Thank you. Goodbye.