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We begin with the name of Allah.
Asalamu alaikum!
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Welcome to another session of Maktab-e-Ghamidi.
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As you know that we are trying to seek Ghamidi Sahab's point of view
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on those 23 objections that are raised against him.
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We talked in great detail about the beard and the veil.
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The subject of 'Fitrah' had also commenced and an episode was completed.
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As before, I will say that the objections people raise on
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Ghamidi Sahab's thoughts on 'Fitrah'
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and the ones who are interested must watch these episodes in sequence
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because the discussion is in a sequential manner.
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Thank You so much Ghamid Sahab for your time.
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Ghamidi Sahab, in the first episode, we put a fundamental objection of people before you
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In their view you had added one more source to the sources of religion
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which is termed as Fitrah (Nature).
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The thing that was asked is 'what is this thing called Nature?'
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How do we access it and how did you come to pay attention to it?
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Let's take this discussion forward.
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In the last session Ghamidi Sahab, you had said that I study Fitrah
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like I study any other things in the world.
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And the knowledge that is available to will also be available in case of Fitrah.
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My question is that the knowledge you had pointed out exists within human nature ...
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is this knowledge just the name of this ability,
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That is, between truth and falsehood,
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well-known moral values, shame and indecency.
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I consider them to be two different opportunities and possibilities.
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Or is the Fitrah some kind of consciousness or ability
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that helps me to choose the right one between the two?
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[Ghamidi] See, I had said three things
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I had argued that whenever anything is said about man, it will be based on Fitrah.
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Human Knowledge and the knowledge about human is the study of Fitrah.
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The knowledge of minerals is the study of
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the nature of minerals.
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The knowledge of plants is basically the study of the nature of plants.
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If you talk about humans, then it will start from here.
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As to what is the nature of a human being.
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We have discussed in great detail as to what Fitrah means.
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Now the thing is that what it really is?
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That is, there is a potential ability, a consciousness installed inside of you.
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The consciousness that is like a tree hidden in a seed, which is placed inside you
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When it will have an external stimulus, you will reach a certain age,
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the circumstances will create suitable conditions for it
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then that thing will start to become knowledge.
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I had told you how knowledge is created.
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So it was submitted that it always starts with your introspection.
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I have a sense and I study the external world with it.
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I have an inner self with which I study my own existence.
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These are the basic facts that are subjective.
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That is, this is my study, this is my knowledge and this is my certainty.
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Then to transform it into an objective reality and an objective knowledge,
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the method of induction is adopted.
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After the method of induction, when we come to a point
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that this is really the matter for all human beings.
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There is a common reality between them.
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Now the condition arose for it to become knowledge.
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Then comes the intellect and what does it do?
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it starts to infer about its necessary implications and corollaries.
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Its basic job is to make inferences.
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With it the inferential knowledge comes into being.
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When these things are combined in order, we say that the knowledge
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about a certain thing has been created.
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All your sciences, I had said that they are created in this way.
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So when you study human nature ...
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Now take a look and see all of your knowledge disciplines,
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has it happened among them that the moment a desire for something arose
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or what you call as ability, it appeared and some externality came from outside
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and gave you that knowledge?
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No, a human being creates that knowledge himself.
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How can the knowledge that you create be
created unconsciously?
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[Hassan] Right.
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[Ghamidi] That is, does it happen that the ability for sociology that
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had been kept inside you ... an angel came from outside and sorted in order
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all your knowledge of sociology?
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Because there had been kept an ability for reception in you, so you accepted it.
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And in this way the science of sociology
came into being.
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Does it happen like this?
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[Hassan] No.
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[Ghamidi] So when we study a human being ... I had submitted that
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the decisive thing about it is what is my own consciousness and sense.
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I open my eyes in this world, I reach the age of consciousness, I observe things,
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that is, I see the sun and I call it a sun.
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I look at this house and say that it is a house.
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Now you will tell me that all I am saying is a delusion.
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Whereas my knowledge starts from here itself.
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That is, either it is my senses that bring this knowledge to me
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or I possess an inner sense through which I study my inner self.
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That is, the study of the self is either taking place internally
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or the study of objects is taking place outside.
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It is from this that I get the collection of facts or data with which my knowledge begins.
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So take a look and see if all the sciences that have been created in the world
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till date, are they only an expression of my ability?
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Man has gone through all these stages in it.
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That is, the way he seems to create a sense of the facts
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as a result of his study and because of this,
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those facts become an objective reality.
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They pass through the method of induction and then the inference
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of their necessary implications begins.
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That is how the knowledge of economics and politics comes into being.
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What are all these sciences? The study of human nature.
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So the things that are related to religion in it are exactly of the same nature.
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[Hassan] Right, Ghamidi Sahab we say that a man benefits from the external world,
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from ones practical observations and the experiences of the people.
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And he determines fitrah by making this journey of knowledge.
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My question is that it is said that when in the external world, the tradition of knowledge
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is present, superstitions, received wisdom is present, as is everything else.
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A problem arises somewhere that my interiority is saying one thing
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and the experience with people is saying something else.
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What knowledge will be decisive in it to determine the fitrah (nature)?
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[Ghamidi] We have had a discussion over it.
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That is, a man by his nature carries the quality of critique within him.
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Whatever comes in front of him, a criticism of it begins.
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This critique also changes into the objective reality and after that
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the premises of knowledge begin to change.
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But what is the standard to decide what is wrong and what is right?
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That which is in accordance with human nature.
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That is, the things that you find in human nature and when something
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comes in comformity to them, it finds an acceptance in the world.
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When it clashes with them, then as many philosophies that you bring forth,
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it is after a while that its flaws come to the light.
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This is how knowledge grows and who has ever claimed certainty in this regard?
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This is the history of the evolution of knowledge.
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That is, I will make my own study.
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When the study of my self brings forth to me an aggregate of facts
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it will go through a whole series of criticism.
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It is also passing on an individual level and it will also do so on a collective one.
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All the sciences that you are taught in our universities and the way you get them,
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do you accept them as they are?
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They are parsed and analyzed on all the three levels.
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That is, the collection of facts that you had arranged,
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whether they be results of your inner introspection or your outer experiences.
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Did you set it up correctly? Was there any mistake made in them?
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Whether there anything wrong with the inductive process?
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And in the end while deciding the necessary rational implications,
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did you commit any error in your premises or in their arrangement?
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So it passes through criticism and the sciences come to being with this.
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These questions have a mindset behind them,
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that our knowledge is a final and static thing is fed to us.
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Knowledge of everything goes through these stages.
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Science, what you think of as such a great enterprise, and because of which
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many inventions and revelations have happened, and under whose shadow we are living today,
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has this all happened in the blink of an eye?
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Also, the facts that you apprehended in it, aren't they ever challenged?
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In fact, theories are formed herein.
How are they formed?
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A collection of facts comes to us, it passes through the process of induction
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and now the intellect makes inferences.
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As long as it is in the realm of rational inference, it is an idea.
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But this is a scientific idea. It is not something that you just say randomly.
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It means as a result of induction of all the facts, something has been derived,
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such evidences have been procured, which is capable of being converted into a rational inference.
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As soon as this thing comes into existence a premise of knowledge comes to the fore.
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Another person may rise up, and offer a critique of it.
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This practice of criticism goes on and that is what leads to acceptance and denial of theories.
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This is what the poet has describes as
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'Tarashidum Parastidum Shikastam'
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[Hassan] So Ghamidi Sahab, when you say this thing the rational question
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that is raised on it is that let us agree that one has to pass through a stage,
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after that there will be criticism and then some facts will emerge
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which you will call as 'Fitrah'.
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But if there is a science constantly under evolution,
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if there are changes taking place in it everyday,
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then how can it become a point of reference for you and me?
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I will tell you to agree on Fitrah and you will say that I am studying it
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and I will reach to that reality and will someday agree with it.
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[Ghamidi] How are the sciences that you are studying and teaching now
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becoming the point of reference?
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In the same way. As long as they belong to a subjective study, they are for my own self.
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If I have to make an individual decision, I will obviously do that
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on my internal impressions.
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The moment it becomes a knowledge, it will go through a process of induction.
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So as a result of going through a process of induction,
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the differences are removed.
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That is, how an individual views it. How all people view it.
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How are the different civilizations viewing it.
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This is how all sciences are formed.
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It is after this that the stage comes when you start inferring its rational implications.
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The part that is practicable in it is immediately put into practice..
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[Hassan] Right.
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[Ghamidi] And the criticism keeps happening in it.
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How have you made these democratic institutions that you have made?
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The principles on which the world is governed at the moment,
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the principles on which UN is formed, where did they come from?
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Is it something that cannot be challenged?
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You have drafted a constitution for your country,
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obviously there are some facts that have been accepted together with their implications.
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How did this practice of acceptance take place?
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See, this is exactly the method of induction.
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That is, the facts were the subjective in their own places.
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When you brought all the political leaders together,
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there was a discussion among them over it.
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So it turned out that a consensus is developing.
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See, the build up of consensus is a result of induction.
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So as a result, you agree completely on a few things.
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In some things you turned out to be different.
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You framed a document and decided over it.
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Even then, amendments are needed.
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So if this is happening there, it is happening in other sciences as well.
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[Hassan] But I abide by the constitution every day.
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[Ghamidi] What's wrong about that?
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All the sciences are being taught in the same way.
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Based on the knowledge of engineering, you are building tall skyscrapers.
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It is also possible that the errors in your results may come to the light.
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Doesn't it happen that on some occasions the bridges fell down
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and the buildings collapsed?
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Then it was found out that there was a scientific error in it somewhere.
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So repeated experience makes human knowledge more perfect.
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That is, perfection is created within it.
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There are no limits to perfection.
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We say that the Taj Mahal is a pinnacle of construction.
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There is more to the world than that too and you see man has created that world.
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Now you dream of buildings as high as 1 or 2 kilometers.
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How does all this happen?
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That is, you do this work on such a large scale and put thousands of people
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in those high buildings.
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You see, it is a matter of life and death.
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On what basis does it take place?
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When you have to send these shuttles, when you send people to study Mars,
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You send them with a confidence that the knowledge that you have gained till now
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by the method of induction, be it of maths, science or any other subject,
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there are a lot of results in it that can not be challenged now.
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Still at times there are mistakes.
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So a man lives his life like this.
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That is, his knowledge is actually based on the most likely conjecture.
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the smallest portion of which you can say that, it is a collection of facts
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the rest of the things are mostly
inferential.
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[Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, you spoke of
inference.
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A rational doubt that arises in determining nature through inference is
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that we see in the history of the nations, many among considered
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obscenity, nudity and homosexuality as their natural inclinations.
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If someone goes into that time and applies this method of induction
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to the whole nation then it would seem to him that homosexuality is in man's nature?
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[Ghamidi] See, when that thing becomes a knowledge,
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it does not become so in a single nation or in single settlement.
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t is formed at the level of humanity.
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Exceptions are always present.
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That exceptions are scrutinized.
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It at times turns out that while studying the exception,
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you arrive at an opposite conclusion.
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You say that this is the rule and that what happened before
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is to be seen as an exception.
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All this happens in every knowledge.
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So we will also study obscenity and nudity.
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We will also study the deviations of a nation.
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What is true and what is false, I had said that we study rational humans.
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We say that man is a rational creature.
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I can take you and let you meet some of the patients in a mental asylum.
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And you know that many philosophers within post-modernism have made this case that
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we should be seen through their eyes.
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So these questions will remain and these questions will be answered in the same way
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[Hassan] Right.
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[Ghamidi] It will be told that what is the rule and what is the exception.
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It will be said that what are the requirements of nature and what is the deviation.
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By studying it from different angles, you state your facts
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which are in turn criticised.
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This will be the case forever and there is no point worrying about it.
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I have told you that in construction of buildings, in surgery, in medicine
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the things on which human life depends are also subject to these changes.
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Even if it happens tomorrow in determining the meaning of obscenity and nudity,
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no hell will break loose.
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We will reason and that argumentation will happen in the same way.
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That is, the things which are present in human nature, we will probe them.
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We will see them in the society while passing through the method of induction.
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The basis of your rational inference will also depend only on them.
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There is no way for a man to gain knowledge
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unless you believe that knowledge also came down from heavens.
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This is how knowledge is born in this world.
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[Hassan] Right. Ghamid Sahab if I see that a nation is deviated
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and they are considering their habits and qualities according to their own nature.
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So now when I go to them and tell them to come and talk to me
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because they are standing on the wrong nature.
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So I will refer to them the nature of my inner self.
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And they will say, ''You are one and we are thousands.
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Now are you right or we are right?''
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[Ghamidi] I will refer to my self when the case is limited to me only.
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If that matter has gone through the process of induction in the world
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and if it has a whole history to it, then why won't I refer to that?
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I will tell what happened in the past.
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I will also tell how man has struggled to get here.
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I will tell all this to them and there may be a discussion about that.
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That is, why should I have a staff that I will hit them in order to attract them?
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[Hassan] Right.
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[Ghamidi] I will reason and they will do the same.
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As a result, what survives will be in accordance to human nature.
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What will be discussed there will depend on whether the method
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that they have adopted is a requirement of nature or is it a deviation.
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This is what will happen.
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Man deviates because he has the will and authority.
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So I have to discuss it with them.
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You are taking me to that small settlement
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there have been civilizations in the world based on polytheism.
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What did the Prophet do to them?
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Hit them with a staff?
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That is, there is a divine decree that has come and has taken away from people
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their ability to think and understand?
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Discussions have taken place.
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That is, they are arguing for their case.
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That is, you are just referring to a small settlement
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about which you are not even sure whether the whole settlement was doing it
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or it was only their leaders, their elders or even the mischief of some miscreants.
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You are not sure about that even.
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How big was the settlement?
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Of a hundred or fifty thousand people?
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You can determine that by the standards of the present world.
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But the debate over monotheism and polytheism is going on for centuries.
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This is spread across civilizations.
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You still have to argue about it with billions of people even today.
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So what can you do about it? Just reason!
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So knowledge is nothing but reasoning.
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And how does reasoning bear results?
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Your facts are created out of your senses, be they internal or external
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and these are what are challenged.
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[Ghamidi] In this, it is clear that the knowledge is first subjective
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and then it gets related to the exteriors.
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You even challenge the method of induction.
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You say that what is being said is basically a result of deviation.
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It is in some settlements, some tribes and in some nations.
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Humanity as a whole cannot accept it.
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[Hassan] You mean, at times the survey turns wrong.
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[Ghamidi] Yes, this is how it happens.
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And after that, inference is a rational thing.
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There is a lot of deductive logic in it and there is no problem in it.
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You can very easily define it.
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Where did logic originate as a science?
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That is, when the intellect emerges and starts the process of inference
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from the basic premises.
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So the mathematical rules of the process of inference were made
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so that it is free of errors.
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[Hassan] Right. Right, Right.
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[Ghamidi] That is why that knowledge came into being.
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In it the mistakes are pointed out and then later discussion starts on them.
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This is the case with knowledge.
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That is, first remove this misconception from your mind
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that when a person first creates knowledge it is free from any errors at the outset.
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This is where the discussion starts, will go through these stages
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and in the same way reach conclusion.
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And that completion is actually the completion in the here and now.
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The moment there is criticism on it, we move a step further.
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[Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, in all these rational objections,
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the basic thought that is at work is that when a person creates knowledge.
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Lets say, he makes from silica sand an I-pad and after discovering neutron and proton
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he invented electricity.
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This is the exterior knowledge and had to go through these logical steps.
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The knowledge that is within a person should be very carefully disseminated.
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And in that he should not do this thing whether he does it in other things or not.
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[Ghamidi] See, the thing is that there are many contents of this knowledge.
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This is the knowledge inside you that turns into psychology.
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This is the knowledge inside you that turns into sociology.
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All of these have to pass through these stages.
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That is, what is this argument that
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the knowledge you have inside must be different than the one outside?
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The facts are within you and they will emerge in the same way.
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You have headache or any other ache, this is your subjective feeling.
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This is your inner feeling.
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Obviously, as a result of induction, it is going through different stages.
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So there can be a mistake in it too.
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There can be disagreement as well.
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Disagreements and mistakes will be there in any knowledge,
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be that any nafsi (spiritual) discipline or that of any external phenomena.
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[Hassan] Right. Ghamidi Sahab let's take the discussion forward.
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As a result of this study, you saw the interior, the exterior and did induction.
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Centuries have passed and now the question is that in 2020,
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if a person wants to know about the Fitrah by examining all the knowledge of the past
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then my question is that as a result of all the advancement in knowledge
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and the struggle therefore, what has been determined as 'Fitrah'?
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That is, what are the facts on which it is based?
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What are its limitations and can a person live his life entirely based on it?
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What has been decided finally?
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[Ghamidi] There are a many things that have been decided.
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There are many that are under discussion and will remain so.
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That is, it is certain that man is a rational animal.
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He has in him the abilities of rational inference.
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Induction confirms this.
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On this basis we are advancing all our knowledge.
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It is certain that there is aesthetic sense in a man.
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This is something that cannot be challenged anywhere.
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All the arts are being compiled on it.
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Your painting, your poetry, your literature are all based on it.
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It is clear that these are the sources of acquiring knowledge within a man
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that I have just mentioned.
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That is, he has an inner sense, he has outer senses.
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How have we known all this?
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[Hassan] Though this journey.
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[Ghamidi] Through our study.
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And there are no disagreements in it.
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Knowledge emanates from these sources, there is no disagreement on that.
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There are some stages later where there are some disagreements.
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We also agree on these things.
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Take man as a moral being.
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That is, he has some values.
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They are the universal values, they are all objective values.
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The system of this world is based on these values.
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I see you with those values, you see me with those values.
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A large part of them is where there is no disagreement.
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On which we all humans agree.
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There is discussion on some of the applied things.
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All of this on which we have developed a consensus, is it a small achievement?
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And I am saying that you are merely cultivating it,
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otherwise it's always been that way.
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[Hassan] Right.
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[Ghamidi] In the oldest caves, you might have seen
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that whenever a person advances forward, he makes pictorial art.
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The study of man's past reveals that his aesthetics have always been present in him
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The way he has been given the eyes, in the same way he has been given this sense.
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He makes a decision whether this thing is beautiful or ugly
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and chooses the beautiful one.
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There is a moral existence within him and that moral existence is appearing
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in your constitutions.
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It is manifesting itself in your personal relationships.
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This is the basis on which you have set up the courts.
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This is the foundation on which the police institutions work.
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The state system is being established on the basis of it.
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Based on this, you have prepared the charter of fundamental rights
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and made the institution of the United Nations.
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So, there is a lot that has been decided
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And all of this has been certain for centuries.
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[Hassan] Right, Right,Right.
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Well, Ghamidi Sahab the next question in
it is that
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when we say that this knowledge is certain and now we have reached till here,
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You had mentioned in the previous episode that there is instinctive knowledge in man.
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And when it comes to religion, it is this instinctive knowledge that creates a desire
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in man to seek the divine.
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What is the meaning of this instinctive knowledge ?
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It seems to be a bit difficult to understand.
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What is it and on what things is it based upon?
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[Ghamidi] My creator has endowed me with a capability
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to convert all the thing and ideas that I encounter, into knowledge.
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[Hassan] Right.
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[Ghamidi] If you draw a line in front of me and the shape it creates,
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I do not look at it like a goat or a donkey.
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I call it a Triangle.
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[Hassan] Give it a name.
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[Ghamidi] Not only have I given it a name
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Calling it 'triangle' is how I actually turned it into knowledge.
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[Hassan] Right.
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[Ghamidi] So the things that appear in front of me,
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be it to my inner self or the external one.
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The capability to convert them into knowledge is not lying outside me.
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It is not only based on my past experiences.
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These are inside of me and this is my instinctive
knowledge.
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That is, the moment it relates itself with objects outside,
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it starts converting those things into knowledge.
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What does it mean to be converted into knowledge?
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It gives them meaning.
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It makes a judgment on them.
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It gives them a form.
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It starts to determine their connections by employing the God-given capability.
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My Fatir, or Khaliq (God's names) gave me this capability.
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This is my creativity that is inside me.
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And its name is man.
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If it is inside me then knowledge is being created and civilizations are emerging.
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It is not inside a donkey.
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It is not inside a dog.
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It is not inside a lion.
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It is possible that they may have far greater capabilities than mine,
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but as a human being this capability is only found inside of me.
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It is the same thing that is being manifested in my knowledge
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and in my civilisation.
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[Hassan] Right. So, Ghamidi Sahab you say that the creation of a man
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has been kept in the light of his Nature.
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When we go and see outside, we of course believe in God and his scriptures and see
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everything in its light, by comparing the world with revelation.
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But we come to know that the beginning of a man has started from Adam (AS).
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He was a messenger and Allah Almighty talked to him directly.
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So has the humanity began from the conscious capacity of this nature
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or has it happened through God's direct scriptures or through some knowledge that
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has been given on his behalf?
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So we see that first Adam (AS) was born, the concept of Prophethood came
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and can there be anything that might have come after that?
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[Ghamidi] We are now entering the realm of religion.
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So far we have been talking on a purely scientific
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and rational basis.
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[Hassan] Right.
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[Ghamidi] And in that the thing that I tried to explain was that
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in my case it is not like there is somebody from the past about whose history
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I am not aware of.
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[Hassan] Right]
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[Ghamidi] Here children are born even today.
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I see all of these potential qualities in them.
-
These are my experiences and observations of the present time.
-
I also see how the knowledge of the past becomes my legacy.
-
So when I ponder over it after stepping away from theology, what am I left with?
-
I will study the human being present at this time.
-
The rest of my knowledge is also based on this.
-
I argue on democracy as a principle that what is its past.
-
Behind its past is the history of the empires.
-
Human nature is studied as to what it wants.
-
What are those hidden demands within it?
-
The answer to that is some fighters by the use of power and domination,
-
established their dominance over people.
-
Otherwise a man wants to do his business with freedom and liberty.
-
After discussion of all this, there is a mention of past, and present in it.
-
When you stand in the place of pure knowledge
-
you cannot give a religious reference.
-
Now, if you go to the religious references,
-
then obviously religious texts will come up for discussion.
-
The basic principle in it and the one that is a point of contention now,
-
is that, the first human that we talk
about
-
that is, Adam (AS), (and Eve).
-
Was that first human being blind? didn't he have the capability to see?
-
Wasn't there any potential present in him?
-
Were all the things about religion told to him and then they came in his knowledge?
-
Is it like this?
-
Was this the case with a human being?
-
This is a point of view. That is, he wasn't aware about it.
-
For example, when you analyse the content of the religion.
-
You will realiize that what are these things
-
and what are you calling as religion?
-
For example a consciousness of one's creator.
-
For example the ability of differentiation between good and evil.
-
It is as if you are saying that all these things were alien to man.
-
Do you what you are endorsing?
-
You are endorsing the people who say that a man is a blank slate.
-
He was born as a tabula rasa.
-
He possesses no reason.
-
He has actually come to some conclusion
-
by trial and error, pushing and shoving some things.
-
It is his instincts that have guided him.
-
The light of intellect did not exist in him the way it exists now.
-
You know a lot of people narrate this story to you.
-
[Hassan] Yes.
-
[Ghamidi] Like, as a result of evolution, polytheism arises in it.
-
And then from there the oneness of God emerges.
-
From fear itself many different concepts arise.
-
If he dreams at night, then the world of Gods and Goddesses is created.
-
Is it what you are trying to say?
-
[Hassan] No, this is a problematic thing.
-
[Ghamidi] Then you should say this.
-
You should say this in the same way man was born like this.
-
It was basically the Prophets who came and told them things.
-
What is the other point of view?
-
It is that the man came with an abstract knowledge of all the basic religious facts
-
[Hassan] Right.
-
[Ghamidi] Brief knowledge of the basic facts.
-
See, knowledge as I said before, becomes an ordered knowledge through centuries.
-
You can see science, the history of philosophy or other subjects,
-
the religious facts must be first probed, i.e. what are they?
-
If you think about it, I have said it many times before
-
that if you have a look at the content of religion, you see 4 things.
-
That is, you achieve the knowledge of God or that of the creator.
-
As a result of this knowledge, you feel a sense of servitude within you.
-
Like one comes to know of one's mother or father and the feeling of love is created.
-
This feeling of servitude - how is it expressed?
-
This is the first thing.
-
In this, the rituals of worship come into being.
-
I am talking about the religious content.
-
The other thing are the etiquette of purification.
-
That is, religion wants you and your body to be pure.
-
There are many things of this kind like Wudhu, Ghusul, Janabah, Haiz, Nifas, etc.
-
What are all these things?
-
This is in fact the purification of the body
-
which holds a very basic importance in the content of religion.
-
These are two things. What is the third thing?
-
Third thing is the difference between good and bad in one's food.
-
[Hassan] Right.
-
[Ghamidi] That is, some things are forbidden to eat
-
and many things are permissible.
-
The rule that has been stated is that
-
all the things that are pure are permissible.
-
And all other things that are impure are forbidden.
-
This is the third thing in the content of religion.
-
The fourth and the last thing is maroof and munkar.
-
That is, the consciousness of good and evil.
-
You say that a certain thing is good and certain thing is bad.
-
So religion is this at its core. Let's not go to the commands yet.
-
This lies as the base of religion.
-
Man already possesses a brief knowledge of all these.
-
[Hassan] Right.
-
[Ghamidi] This is the second premise.
-
The earlier one was that he is totally unaware of all these things.
-
If he is unaware of all these things, then where did the other sciences
-
that create knowledge come from?
-
[Hassan] Right. He indeed invented the wheel and lit fire.
-
[Ghamidi] That is he discovered the fire, went out, hunted animals
-
made weapons, he started making pictures.
-
Where did the rest come from?
-
The way that knowledge was present in him,
-
didn't he have the knowledge for these things?
-
And if we observe today, does this knowledge come from an external stimulus?
-
That is, we see in our children that the basic facts that have been put in them,
-
basically create the room for the further acceptance of knowledge.
-
The second point of view is that all of this was already present in a human being.
-
But in a brief abstract form, in a dormant state like that of a seed.
-
bil-ijmal.
It needed to be transformed into detail.
-
In all other sciences it was believed that the process of converting into details,
-
even if it took centuries no hell will break loose.
-
[Hassan] Right.
-
[Ghamid] But it was not appropriate in this case
-
because man has been sent for testing.
-
He is held accountable. Allah Almighty has sent him here as a trial.
-
Every human being will close his account and his office
-
when he leaves the world.
-
So it became necessary for him to provide him with the details of this brief knowledge
-
which was given to him through the Messengers.
-
This is the connection between the revelation
-
and the knowledge of your nature.
-
[Ghamidi] And it is rational as well.
-
This is what knowledge and intellect demand.
-
The evidence of this is found in other sciences.
-
That is, what happens in the rest of the sciences?
-
In rest of the sciences, whatever there is inside of you
-
of which you have got a potential ...
-
it manifests itself gradually.
-
It slowly connects to the facts.
-
In it even the process of induction takes years and centuries.
-
In it many discussions take place about the quality of the rational inference.
-
And then somehow after investigating it, you establish it as a science.
-
If you today go and open the library, you see the books on politics, psychology
-
sociology and many other subjects.
-
How did all this come into being?
-
You see, it has reached to this result after centuries.
-
And we discuss it today.
-
See the knowledge of the sciences.
-
The wheel has been invented long ago.
-
Fire too was discovered a long time ago
-
but the world that we see around us today is of last 2 centuries.
-
How much time did this all take to be invented.
-
That is, though how many stages of evolution did man go through.
-
Could this also be true of religious realities?
-
[Hassan] No.
-
That is, it would have happened that this knowledge would have been
-
organized for centuries and the people who did it would be held accountable.
-
[Hassan] That is, after the end of the prophecy accountability would've started.
-
[Ghamidi] Because of this Allah Almighty made this decision, or
-
I wont talk about the decision yet but what should have been in terms of man
-
should be that the beginning itself should have been with the Prophethood.
-
[Hassan] Right
-
[Ghamidi] I am still having a rational argument.
-
The beginning was to be made from here too.
-
If this knowledge. Takleef
-
Takleef is a Shar'i term.
-
Takleef means the knowledge which would have made man accountable.
-
If there was to be accountability for that.
-
If there is to be a apocalypse as a result of this and if there is a judgement
-
of man's eternal blessing and doom, then it cannot be postponed.
-
[Ghamidi] So the situation was not that the man was lost
-
or he did not know the way.
-
Man had brought all these things in his nature.
-
For them to manifest there could have been a waiting period of centuries.
-
So Allah Almighty gave the first man who was given consciousness,
-
Men before this were being born with their material existence
-
as far their bodies are concerned.
-
But the first man whom Allah Almighty gave consciousness was Adam (AS).
-
You call him with the name Adam, you can as well assign some other name.
-
Because we didn't yet enter the world of
theology.
-
So this is what should have happened in his case,
-
this is what intellect requires and this is
what knowledge demands.
-
That is, like the basics of other sciences are present within a human being
-
which as a result of gradual evolution accumulate their legacy
-
and become sciences should have been made a science on the very beginning.
-
[Ghamidi] And this is what from
the very beginning
-
which required prophecy.
-
So He himself was made the Prophet.
-
That is, they didn't even wait for another
Prophet to come to Him.
-
[Hassan] He was himself made the messenger
-
[Ghamidi] Therefore, whatever potential was present in them
-
and all the details that were needed
-
was provided to them at that very moment.
-
This is what the intellect wants to happen
-
Now enter the study of religion and after that ask the religious text itself
-
as to what happened.
-
Read Bible, read Quran, read Vedas, they
will narrate to you the same story.
-
[Hassan] Right.
-
[Ghamidi] Insist on it.
The Holy Quran says the same thing.
-
That is, we kept Adam and Eve in a garden
-
Why did we keep them there?
-
So that their fitrah manifests itself. That happened.
-
[Hassan] That happened in the form of nudity.
-
[Ghamidi] It happened in 10 other forms.
-
That's a matter of a long inquiry.
That happened.
-
When it happened and after happening,
Allah Almighty forgave them.
-
That is, they turned to God and repented.
-
See what happened there.
-
An urge for repentance and return arose.
-
What are the words in which my Lord becomes pleased with me.
-
It was said that "We inspired those in
him."
-
[Hassan] Right.
-
[Ghamidi] And then there was the selection process.
-
And as a result of this selection, he was made a Prophet.
-
This is what the Holy Quran states.
-
Take any text from the Quran where the story of Adam and Satan is told.
-
or of Adam and Eve, the events of the beginning of the world have been narrated.
-
This is what is said.
-
On this occasion He was told that now My guidance will come
-
on the occasions of the need.
-
The present need was fulfilled.
-
It will come in future as well.
-
And then it is a separate discussion as to when that need arose
-
and when did the process of prophecy began.
-
We are not talking about that yet.
-
[Hassan] Right. Since we are now entering the religious discussion
-
from an intellectual one.
-
And that if the Fitrah was already there then what was the need of prophecy?
-
Ok if someone might say that Adam (AS) had met Allah Almighty,
-
and the consciousness that you are talking about was his practical experience.
-
He has come to this world with that practical experience
-
It wasn't as if he inferred that as a creation, there should be a creator.
-
[Ghamidi] Now that we have come to religious texts.
-
The Quran is itself stating the same thing.
-
If you go to the Surah-Al-Araaf.
-
It is stating that Adam (AS) had to yet come into existence
-
when the same thing happened to his children, his future generations
-
that were to come after centuries.
-
[Hassan] Right
-
[Ghamidi] That is, they had not come to this world yet, as bodies.
-
Their personality, the real personality not just of them but
-
"Iz akhaza Rabuka Min Banii-Aadama Min Zuhurihim"
-
When you discuss this verse, then I will you that
-
the Quran is telling a story much before that.
-
[Hassan] Right
-
[Ghamidi] So if you have to argue from the religious texts
-
then the situation is different altogether.
-
Let's look at one thing at a time.
-
[Hassan] Ok, Ghamidi Sahab, now we will come to the full details as to
-
where Quran makes Fitrah as a point of reference and what it says.
-
The first question about man is that
-
When Adam (AS) was sent by Allah Almighty, after that he committed a mistake.
-
A man who has brought into the world a consciousness of good and bad,
-
He knows about good and evil.
-
There is no external influence, no effect of knowledge and no imagination
-
and it is there that they deviated.
-
So why didn't Allah Almighty say that
-
'Adam, I had just created you with this fresh fitrah and you violated it?'
-
Instead, Allah Almighty said that 'I had forbidden you from this'
-
It is as if the word of Allah Almighty became a ruling for Adam (AS)
-
and not some reference of man's natural consciousness.
-
[Ghamidi] See, this is the reference of that ordeal
-
to which they were subjected.
-
What connection does it have with nature?
-
[Hassan] That is, the act of obscenity took place.
-
[Ghamidi] From where did this obscenity and virtue come into discussion?
-
That is, Adam and Eve have been kept together at a place by Allah Almighty.
-
They have been kept there as conscious human beings.
-
To tell these conscious human beings as to what values are hidden in them.
-
How will their nature manifest itself.
-
For that they were subjected to an ordeal.
-
They were kept in a garden; there they were given permission about everything.
-
But the restrictions were imposed on their personal relationships.
-
They are husband and wife and where does the question of obscenity come from?
-
[Hassan] Oh! Right.
-
[Ghamidi] That is they are husband and wife and have been created like that.
-
They had a right to get intimate.
-
It is a legitimate practice in our religion.
-
But there was restriction imposed on this.
-
Now when the restrictions were imposed then there are some instincts present
-
inside a human being.
-
This is not a sin itself.
-
The restrictions were imposed in the same way between a husband and wife
-
as is done during the month of Ramadan.
-
It is imposed with the command of Allah Almighty, right?
-
This is meant as a trial.
-
That is, the instincts that are present in human nature,
-
because with it a man has been given a will and authority,
-
then at times Allah Almighty imposes a restriction on some natural instinct.
-
So this restriction was imposed on them.
-
When the restrictions were imposed on them what happened after that?
-
Now what happened is that the desire within them
-
that we have now come to existence,
-
See how the human nature manifests itself.
-
That we should now get eternity.
-
If you study the human nature.
You had asked this question that
-
what nature exactly is.
-
One aspect of that nature is that every
single human beings seeks eternity.
-
He has in his nature a want for this.
-
He never wants to die.
-
Now what happened is that the Satan who
had now turned into their enemy,
-
came and started coaxing them, swearing oaths!
-
The Quran states this and he told them that I am your well-wisher.
-
The thing that you have been forbidden is actually an obstacle
-
in the way of attaining eternity.
-
[Hassan] Right.
-
[Ghamidi] He told them that if you do this thing you will live forever.
-
And this thing was not entirely incorrect.
-
We are, in fact, alive for centuries in the quest to this eternity.
-
That is, if we look at a man as man and Adam qua Adam, it is like that.
-
So what did Satan say, it has been told in Surah Taha that he came and swore
-
that you eat the fruit of this tree.
-
This tree has exactly the same meaning as you say Shajr-e-Nasab.
-
That is, it is the tree from which generations are to sprout.
-
So you eat its fruit and as a result you
will become eternal like the angels.
-
The word 'angel' that has been used does not suggest that you will become angels
-
but you will create the qualities in your present existence like that of angels.
-
So as a result you will gain eternity and will live forever.
-
Now it is clear that in this way man violates the command of Allah.
-
The Fitrah demanded that they consummate.
-
[Hassan] Right.
-
[Ghamidi] It is just that Allah had stopped them from doing this and they did.
-
This was the first incident.
-
You can still see that when a person goes through this process for the first time
-
or for the first time this feeling and consciousness affects him
-
then the same situation arises.
-
When it happens and when the desire subsides the guilt take over a man.
-
And in the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty hasn't spoken yet.
-
You can see at different places in the
Holy Quran.
-
That is, you were put to a test and that sense of guilt just arose in you
-
because that was already present inside of you.
-
[Hassan] People say that since Adam (AS) was a Prophet, Allah might have sent
-
a revelation and created that sense of
guilt in him?
-
[Ghamidi] He has not got the
revelation yet.
-
He will get it after he makes a
repentance.
-
Right now, as human beings they are being
told what nature they have brought
-
and how it manifested
-
The same nature has manifested itself.
-
The first manifestation was in the process of intercourse,
-
then what is the instinct behind it - a huge blessing.
-
That is, I will get the eternity and will be immortal.
-
I will live like angels forever.
-
This all is the manifestation of a man's nature.
-
And what happened after this?
-
That is, he is aware of these organs now.
-
They are used for defecation purposes.
-
In our part of the world when kids used
to play till the ages of 5 to 10 years,
-
they don't have the consciousness of this thing.
-
But the moment the instinct of sex arises,
the urge for hiding them arises.
-
The same happened.
-
The Quran says that the moment it happened,
-
and you see that is it just ability?
-
so, in that case, the moment this sense or awareness was created,
-
a voice should have come that hide yourself with the leaves.
-
No, they decided for themselves that
-
Tafiqa Yaksifaani alaihi Mim warakil
Jannah.
-
So what happened now,
-
It wasn't just ability.
-
Full consciousness was created which was followed with actions.
-
You convert it into knowledge now.
-
That is, they have brought with them a sense of modesty,
-
this sense of humility is associated with sexual activity.
-
The moment this humility arises in a human being,
-
a need to hide his private parts is created.
-
This is the reality of modesty in this case.
-
And after that what a human does is he looks in his vicinity.
-
Now we have high quality clothing available to us.
-
So at that time whatever was available, be it the leaves of the trees,
-
they hid themselves with them.
-
So the thing that they did and only after it,
-
they were admonished that you have disobeyed by command.
-
They repented for that and then finally got the Prophethood.
-
[Hassan] Right. Ghamidi Sahab the question that whether Fitrah precedes Prophethood
-
you discussed it with great detail.
-
Our program ends here but I would like it in the next episode Inshallah
-
that we understand it in order from you that the rational concept that a man
-
desires and admits that there is nature.
-
The initial human beings and their characteristics tell us
-
that there is a consciousness present in them.
-
The religious text and its basic sources, how do they explain it?
-
Is it just a rational inference or Allah Almighty has made it clear in his words
-
that the base of religion depends on Nature.
-
It is the knowledge of human nature on which accountability will be done.
-
I would like to know these things from you
in great detail in the next episode.
-
And then all the counter arguments that people ask on this
-
we will put them in front of you.
-
Thank You so much for your time Ghamidi Sahab.
-
Our episode ends here.
-
Akoolu Kawli Haaza Wastagfirullaha lii
Walakum Walisaairil Muslimeen.