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Response to 23 Questions - Part 68 - Excommunication From Islam ( Takfeer ) - Javed Ahmed Ghamidi

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    Response to 23 Questions
    Series, Part-68,
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    Excommunication From Islam,
    Javed Ahmed Ghamidi
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    [Muhammad Hassan Ilyas] Bismillahir
    Rahmanir Rahim, As Salam Alaikum.
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    Welcome to another session of
    'From the Desk of Ghamidi'.
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    The chain of discussion
    continues on 23 Objections.
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    Today we are about to start
    the 68th episode of that chain,
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    Whatever doubts or
    objections that are presented
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    on the thoughts
    of Ghamidi Sahab,
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    we are putting those
    questions to him in order.
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    We are here again at your
    service with a new topic.
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    Let us begin.
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    Today's topic is the issue of 'Takfeer'
    (Excommunication from Islam).
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    It is said that in this scholarly
    tradition of the Ummah,
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    that there is a consensus on this issue,
    and this too is a point
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    on which Ghamidi Sahab
    has differed
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    with the academic tradition
    of the whole Ummah,
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    has presented a new
    concept, a new point of view,
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    what is the established point of view?
    I will state a very brief summary of it.
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    Our Ulema tell us
    and write too that
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    Takfeer is among
    the necessities of Deen,
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    an indispensable requirement.
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    This Right is for the Muslim
    State and the Muslim Ulema as well.
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    i.e. not just for the people
    who deny the Deen
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    'Takfeer' should be
    done of them,
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    rather, from among the
    Muslims too, if some beliefs
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    or viewpoints are found then their
    Takfeer could be done as well.
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    The instructions given
    by Deen cannot be followed
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    till the time 'Takfeer'
    is not done on the people.
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    There are some punishments
    and instructions with regard to Takfeer.
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    Takfeer hasn't just been done
    in the Quran by Allah (swt)
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    rather, we find
    them in Ahadees also.
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    And with reference to the attitude of
    Sahaba as well, this is also well known.
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    It is a lawful and permissible thing,
    which cannot be declared as forbidden.
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    What is Ghamidi
    Sahab's point of view?
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    We will know all this, let us start.
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    Thank you very much
    Ghamidi Sahab for your time.
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    I am trying that
    in this full series,
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    your actual reasoning with
    its original chain of arguments,
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    and the fundamental and clear
    basis of your argumments,
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    that we begin with that in this
    first stage,
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    and then one by one the
    secondary doubts,
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    whether those are based
    on Quran or Hadees,
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    or whether they are based on the clear
    axioms of reason.
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    First of all, I would like to know
    from you that
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    this complete issue of 'Takfeer',
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    till now we have not heard any
    detailed discussion on it from you.
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    Please do explain and take
    us along in this scholarly journey,
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    and tell us that whatever
    conclusions you have drawn,
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    what has been the intellectual journey
    behind it,
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    and what is the epistemology behind it?
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    What is your take on it?
    And the criticism that is done
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    on it, that I will present
    one by one to you.
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    In your opinion,
    what actually is 'Takfeer'?
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    Where lie the roots of this problem?
    And what is your basis of argument?
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    [Javed Ahmed Ghamidi]
    In the Deen of Allah, the acts which
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    are considered as major deviations ...
    you are aware that those are only two.
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    One is 'Shirk' and
    the other is 'Kufr'.
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    'Shirk' and 'Kufr' are the
    common words in the Arabic language.
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    'Shirk' implies that we are making
    someone partner in something.
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    And 'Kufr', if we see the
    from the lexical point of view,
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    like it means to deny,
    it also has various other meanings.
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    If we look at that most
    popular usage then
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    along with denying its popular
    meaning is that of 'Ingratitude'.
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    [Hassan] Okay.
    [Ghamidi] In Urdu, when we speak
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    the word 'Kufran-e Nemat',
    it is actually from it.
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    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] In the Quran
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    which is in the Arabic language,
    it has been used in its lexical meanings.
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    For example, note that the Quran
    says that I have shown you both the ways,
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    "Imma Shaakiram Wa Imma Kafura",
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    now if someone wishes he can
    either be thankful or ungrateful.
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    So here it is used in one
    of its lexical meanings.
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    The same word 'Kufr' is there, i.e. this
    word has its origins in that very root.
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    Other than this you
    see that in the Quran,
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    just for denial, which we call
    denial in the Urdu language,
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    where a religious aspect does not come
    up in that manner, it has been used.
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    "Wa Mayin Yakfur Bit Taghut".
    'One who denies the Taghut',
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    Obviously, 'Kufr' here gets included
    in the requirements of Iman.
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    i.e. something which, in essence, in
    the religious realm, is a big deviation,
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    is becoming praiseworthy here.
    Hence the usage of its lexical meaning.
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    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] There is no end
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    to such usages of words.
    However, the Quran has used this word.
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    And has converted it into
    two terminological interpretations.
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    Hence the need is felt that
    when these have become
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    terminological expressions, then what
    is implied with Shirk terminologically?
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    And what does 'Kufr'
    imply terminologically?
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    So if you look at it in
    the light of the Quran,
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    then Shirk implies that
    we hold someone as Allah.
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    Or to hold Allah as some other entity.
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    Or to hold someone as a partner
    in His Creation and Commands (Authority).
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    'Khalq' means the act of creation
    that has taken place in this universe.
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    And 'Amr' means that the system of the
    universe
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    transcending mere physical laws of
    based on cause and effect.
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    Or as it is being run beyond
    the world of physical appearance,
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    This has been stated by the Quran,
    "Ala Lahul Khalqu Wal Amar".
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    So this is the definition
    of Shirk in simple words.
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    'Kufr', when you see it
    in the light of the Quran
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    when it changes into a term of art,
    as a technical term,
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    then it implies that Allah (swt)
    has imbibed a Guidance
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    in the interior of human beings,
    which he is born with,
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    however, after this, for its
    expounding and elucidation
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    and the ascertaining
    of its micro details,
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    so that it is tamed
    in an orderly fashion,
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    Allah (swt) has through
    his Prophets revealed its details.
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    Hence, that revealed
    Deen which Allah's Prophets
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    have brought, that even
    if we refuse to accept it even partially,
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    then the word Kufr applies to it.
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    [Hassan] Okay.
    [Ghamidi] So Shirk and Kufr
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    should first be understood
    as terminological expressions.
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    After this, let us go further,
    and see that, when we say,
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    that a certain thing involves Shirk,
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    or Shirk has taken place
    in such a matter,
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    or this step, or point of view
    or this act has elements of Shirk,
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    or it can be termed as Shirk,
    or when we say that
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    this thing is totally 'Kufr'.
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    The fundamental truth
    has been denied in it.
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    This thing is the denial of one of the
    compulsory requirements in the Creed.
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    When we are speaking of such
    things then
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    we actually are commenting
    on some angle
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    or point of view
    or on some Aqeedah (Concept).
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    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] And we do this often and on.
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    i.e. when Deen is taught,
    on that occasion,
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    it is to be clarified,
    that Iman is this,
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    the requirement of Iman is this,
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    This is Islam. The basic
    tenets of Islam are such.
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    Similarly, in Shirk,
    in so and so matter Shirk would apply,
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    in such and such a matter,
    Kufr would apply.
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    i.e. in this way, both these terms
    occur in our general use.
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    I was telling that when
    we go beyond this,
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    we come to know,
    that in the Quran
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    these terms have been used in several
    ways in their terminological meaning.
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    At present Shirk is
    not our topic of discussion.
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    We shall limit our
    discussion to 'Kufr'.
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    If you look into the Quran,
    then there are two broad usages of it.
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    One use is that the Quran
    uses the word 'Kufr' and 'Kafir',
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    i.e. obviously, 'Kufr' is a noun,
    and one who does 'Kufr' is a 'Kafir'.
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    Hence using the word 'kufr' and 'Kafir'
    the Quran in dozens of places
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    explains what is 'Kufr'
    and who is a 'Kafir'?
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    [Hassan] Okay, it tells itself.
    [Ghamidi] i.e. there
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    the point of argument
    is not that for a particular person
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    or group a verdict is being given.
    A point is being elaborated.
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    i.e. the Quran will tell us that if a
    person denies the existence of Allah,
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    it is 'Kufr'. The Quran tells us that
    when a group brings Syedna Isa A.S.
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    to a level comparable to Allah (swt)
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    or raises him to the level of
    Allah and starts worshiping him, or
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    believes in a corporeality (physicalness)
    of the being
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    or the personality of Allah,
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    then it is in fact
    an act of 'Kufr'.
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    Hence, what is happening here?
    Here, through the application,
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    i.e. as per the general
    method of the revealed Books,
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    it is being explained as
    to what actually is 'Kufr'?
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    In the same way, you may note,
    how by using the word 'Kaafirun',
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    it is telling as to what are the things
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    which turn an individual a 'Kafir'
    in the sight of Allah or before Allah.
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    When we become a Momin,
    we are a Momin in the sight of Allah.
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    And when we become a 'Kafir',
    we are a Kafir in front of Allah.
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    Hence a very beautiful
    term has been used,
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    "Wa Mallam Yah Kum Bima
    Anzallahu Fa Ulaaika Humul Kaafirun".
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    i.e. those people who do not
    make judgements
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    according to the Laws revealed by
    Allah, those are the ones who are Kafir.
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    So, now what has been done here?
    It is told that
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    any person who is not
    making Judgements
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    according to the laws revealed by Allah,
    on him, the term 'Kufr' would apply.
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    He would be called a 'Kafir' too.
    This has been done by the Quran
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    not in one, or two,
    but in dozens of places
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    it has used the term similarly as
    the term Shirk has been used.
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    i.e. even those forms of
    Shirk have been included
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    which we may interpret as the
    attitudes of Shirk as well.
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    In the same way, all the points
    regarding 'Kufr' too have been told.
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    This is one aspect of it.
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    This aspect is the foundation of
    Dawah in our Deen.
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    i.e. when we present the
    Deen of Allah in the world,
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    then what role does
    an Aalim play in it?
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    He does the work of telling you
    what is Iman, and what is Islam?
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    You must be aware that
    a special discussion took place
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    between Jibreel-e Ameen
    and the Prophet (pbuh),
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    what were the
    questions asked there?
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    The first question was
    'What is Iman?'
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    The second question is
    'What is Islam?'
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    Obviously, now what
    is Islam, or Iman,
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    if we have to discuss
    its opposites,
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    then we have to tell what Kufr
    or Shirk is as compared to Iman?
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    We have to tell this,
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    in the same way, we have to state the
    things which are in comparison with Islam.
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    Hence, when are stating all this, we are
    essentially giving Dawah, or teaching,
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    or training people or stating the Deen
    or explicating or educating people in Deen
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    or warning and alerting people.
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    So I said that this work has taken
    place on a large scale in the Quran too.
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    This has taken place
    in dozens of places.
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    You see such terms
    in multiple places,
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    that it turns the topic
    for discussion
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    on to the belief of some group,
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    or makes an individual's belief
    as the point of discussion.
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    or makes an attitude
    the topic for discussion.
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    And after this, the same
    terms are adopted by it.
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    i.e. if we include one more
    term in it, and what is that?
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    'Zalalat', i.e. MIsguidance, so sometimes
    it says that it is 'Zalal-e Bayiid'.
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    It is a distant misguidance.
    Sometimes it will say that it is 'Kufr'.
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    Sometimes it will
    say it is 'Fisq'.
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    Or sometimes
    it will say it is Shirk.
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    Let me repeat it, that in fact,
    this is the statement of Deen.
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    It is the Dawah of Deen.
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    The moment you
    will state positive things,
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    their negative counterparts
    would occur immediately.
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    When you will speak of Islam,
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    then the opposite of Islam
    would also be stated.
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    When Iman would be stated then the
    contrary of Iman will also be mentioned.
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    [Hassan] The standard would be told.
    [Ghamidi] This you and I would also tell.
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    All the Ulema of the Muslim
    community would state it as well.
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    There isn't any escape from this.
    It will happen day in and day out.
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    The Quran has used these on a grand scale
    as I had said,
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    in multiple places,
    in dozens of places;
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    and it has been explained that
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    so and so is 'Kufr' and only a Kafir
    can adopt such and such things.
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    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] If you refer to the Hadees,
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    the same terms will be
    found in multiple places.
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    i.e. it will be told that
    a Muslim cannot do such a thing.
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    To do such work
    is against Islam.
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    If such act is done then
    it would imply that
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    an individual has crossed
    the realm of religion.
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    All these interpretations
    would be there,
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    however, when we speak of
    a particular person being Kafir,
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    a certain group is 'Kafir',
    so and so person is 'Mushrik',
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    or a group is Mushrik, now,
    this matter
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    does not remain confined
    only to the Dawah of Deen.
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    This is in reality a verdict for an
    individual which we are giving.
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    Some simple examples
    would make it clear.
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    When you ask what is theft? I will
    tell you this and that is theft.
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    The term theft applies to this thing
    or applies to such an act.
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    When it is asked,
    what is fornication?
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    I tell you in detail that
    the application of the term adultery
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    as per the language,
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    or if there has been some
    definition made in law as well,
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    then I will tell you that the
    term adultery applies
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    on this act, when it
    is done in such a way.
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    Similarly, I will tell you that
    one who commits adultery
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    is an adulterer, or one
    who steals is a thief.
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    Or one who robs is a robber.
  • 13:00 - 13:03
    We often and on use
    all these terms in teaching,
  • 13:03 - 13:06
    training, Dawah, speeches
    and in Jurisprudence.
  • 13:06 - 13:08
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] When we say,
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    Zaid or Bakr are thiefs,
    or when we say that
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    so and so group
    are adulterers,
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    or so and so person is an adulterer,
    so what are we doing now?
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    We are actually
    applying our concept
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    on the action of a person,
    of a particular person.
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    Hence, the Quran as
    I said just now,
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    like it has told in multiple places
    as to what is 'Kufr'
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    or who is called a 'Kafir',
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    similarly, it has applied this word on
    its various addressees, and groups.
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    It has done so on the People of Scripture
    as well as on the 'Mushrikeen'.
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    It has been done in the form of
    a verb as well as an adjective.
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    When it has been done on
    them, if you observe that occasion,
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    these terms have been
    used only for the people
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    who bear witness to
    their 'Kufr' and confess to it.
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    [Hassan] Okay, i.e it portrays
    their outward state.
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    [Ghamidi] i.e. it is exactly like,
    a thief comes to us,
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    and he confesses
    that he is a thief.
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    Now, you have the full right
    to say that he is a thief.
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    You may proclaim that the thief
    himself had come and told me.
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    The robber had come
    and said this to me.
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    Since he has confessed to it.
    Put it in the sphere of the law,
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    i.e. a person comes
    to the Court,
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    and he comes and
    confesses of his crime,
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    so now the judicial proceedings will
    limit to the recording of the confession.
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    After that,
    the sentence may be given.
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    i.e. after this, you cease
    to remain an accused.
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    Look at the case of adultery,
    we have been taught that
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    we will not accuse
    anybody of adultery,
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    if we come across any such instance
    we will try to keep it covered.
  • 14:53 - 14:57
    If we do otherwise, then
    it will become a crime for 'Qazf',
  • 14:57 - 14:59
    then in such a situation,
    we have been bound
  • 14:59 - 15:03
    to fetch at least 4 witnesses.
    However, some people presented
  • 15:03 - 15:05
    themselves before the Prophet (pbuh),
  • 15:05 - 15:08
    and confessed to having
    committed adultery themselves.
  • 15:08 - 15:10
    Obviously, now why would
    they need the 4 witnesses?
  • 15:10 - 15:13
    Therefore, now to say about
    them that they committed adultery,
  • 15:13 - 15:15
    neither can anyone be stopped from
    doing it,
  • 15:15 - 15:17
    nor is it a crime.
  • 15:17 - 15:21
    It is actually a statement of their
    own confession or they're owning up.
  • 15:21 - 15:24
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] So when the Quran has to tell,
  • 15:24 - 15:28
    that this particular thing is 'Kufr',
    or to tell that when such an act is done,
  • 15:28 - 15:32
    it is an act of 'Kafir', that
    is the description of the Deen.
  • 15:32 - 15:35
    That is done by us all, no
    one can have any objection to it.
  • 15:35 - 15:38
    The complete knowledge tradition
    of the Muslims has done this.
  • 15:38 - 15:40
    Since the Iman
    has to be elaborated,
  • 15:40 - 15:43
    therefore its contrast
    has to be explained as well.
  • 15:43 - 15:47
    However, when we apply it
    to a group or an individual,
  • 15:47 - 15:51
    then for this, two things
    become compulsory,
  • 15:51 - 15:54
    i.e. one is that he or they
    own up to it, or accept it,
  • 15:54 - 15:57
    after this, we do not
    have any responsibility,
  • 15:57 - 15:59
    I have called myself a Muslim,
  • 15:59 - 16:02
    now there isn't the need
    to check or test my Islam.
  • 16:02 - 16:05
    When I have declared
    myself as a Muslim then
  • 16:05 - 16:08
    you will welcome
    me as a Muslim.
  • 16:08 - 16:11
    The same thing has
    been stated in a place in the Quran,
  • 16:11 - 16:13
    that if a person on some
    occasion,
  • 16:13 - 16:18
    say, when we go into fields, a man
    appears and says, "As Salamu Alaikum",
  • 16:18 - 16:21
    hence this is a way of Islam,
    accept it, and do not reply to him
  • 16:21 - 16:25
    'Lasta Mumina', you are not Momin,
    this has been stated in Surah Nisa.
  • 16:25 - 16:27
    Therefore I expressed my
    Iman and you accepted it.
  • 16:27 - 16:28
    [Hassan] The first situattion.
  • 16:28 - 16:31
    [Ghamidi] In the same way,
    when I express my 'Kufr',
  • 16:31 - 16:36
    I said that I am not going to
    accept your ideas about Prophethood,
  • 16:36 - 16:39
    or I deny it, or if
    it is said in Arabic,
  • 16:39 - 16:44
    that whatever you
    are saying I am its 'Kafir'.
  • 16:44 - 16:45
    I may say any
    of these expressions.
  • 16:45 - 16:49
    This will be my confession.
    This will be a statement about myself.
  • 16:49 - 16:52
    Hence, when the Quran tells
    this to a group,
  • 16:52 - 16:59
    i.e. addressing them as Kafir, or
    reporting their saying as that of a Kafir,
  • 16:59 - 17:01
    who are all those?
    Those are the ones
  • 17:01 - 17:04
    who confess for
    their 'Kufr' themselves.
  • 17:04 - 17:08
    i.e. they have stepped ahead
    to proclaim themselves as Kafir.
  • 17:08 - 17:10
    Here the Quran has
    not given any verdict.
  • 17:10 - 17:15
    Since, if they deny it,
    so now the question arises that
  • 17:15 - 17:19
    the thief has denied now on what
    principle will we call him a thief?
  • 17:19 - 17:22
    [Hassan] But where have they
    owned up that they are Kafir?
  • 17:22 - 17:23
    [Ghamidi] This is what
    I am going to discuss.
  • 17:23 - 17:25
    [Hassan] Okay.
    [Ghamidi] i.e. the objective
  • 17:25 - 17:28
    of all this introduction
    was to know first,
  • 17:28 - 17:32
    what is the terminological interpretation
    for the word Kufr in the Quran?
  • 17:32 - 17:36
    What is the meaning of the term 'Shirk'?
    When on different occasions
  • 17:36 - 17:38
    the Quran pronounces
    something as Kufr,
  • 17:38 - 17:43
    or it is Shirk, then what is it doing?
    That actually is a description of the Deen
  • 17:43 - 17:45
    And when it refers
    to the different groups
  • 17:45 - 17:48
    and says this, whether it is
    done on the first day
  • 17:48 - 17:51
    or on the last day, i.e. whether it
    adopts this method on the first day
  • 17:51 - 17:53
    or the last day of its Dawah,
  • 17:53 - 17:57
    we will know from the Quran ourselves
    that in the Dawah of all the Prophets,
  • 17:57 - 18:01
    these are actually
    the leaders or the arrogant people
  • 18:01 - 18:03
    or the elders of their community,
  • 18:03 - 18:06
    they have been their elites who
    themselves have taken the initiative
  • 18:06 - 18:10
    and proclaimed that "we are Kafirs", and
    then the Quran gives their reference.
  • 18:10 - 18:13
    Therefore, those are self-confessed
    criminals
  • 18:13 - 18:18
    whom the Quran addresses as 'Kafir' here.
    Now I will present to you one by one
  • 18:18 - 18:20
    those places in the Quran.
  • 18:20 - 18:22
    [Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab,
    before you present the Quran,
  • 18:22 - 18:26
    a question that comes to mind is,
    it might also occur logically to people
  • 18:26 - 18:29
    you have clearly differentiated
    between the literal meaning
  • 18:29 - 18:31
    and the formation of the
    terminological meaning
  • 18:31 - 18:33
    and that both have
    been used in the Quran.
  • 18:33 - 18:36
    The question is how will
    it be known that on a certain occasion
  • 18:36 - 18:39
    the Quran is using the
    terminological meaning of Kafir
  • 18:39 - 18:42
    since nowhere is it mentioned
    in the Quran that here
  • 18:42 - 18:46
    the literal meaning is not used, rather
    it is the terminological meaning here.
  • 18:46 - 18:48
    How will we know about what
    meaning is to be taken and when?
  • 18:48 - 18:49
    [Ghamidi] There is no difficulty in it.
  • 18:49 - 18:52
    We decide likewise
    for all words we use.
  • 18:52 - 18:55
    The terminological meaning as
    well is a part of the lexicon.
  • 18:55 - 18:58
    It is not that they are left out.
  • 18:58 - 19:01
    For 'Namaz' (Prayer) the word
    used in the Quran is Salah.
  • 19:01 - 19:05
    The word Salah stands for Dua,
    supplication and turning towards Allah,
  • 19:05 - 19:07
    for Allah's (swt) Blessings, it is
    used in several meanings.
  • 19:07 - 19:11
    When it has been used for 'Namaz'
    or when it has become a technical term,
  • 19:11 - 19:13
    that we know from
    the context or the backdrop.
  • 19:13 - 19:16
    So all the scholars have been doing
    this, I am not independent in this.
  • 19:16 - 19:21
    All will tell you where the word
    'Kufr' is being used as a technical term,
  • 19:21 - 19:23
    or where it is being used
    in its literal meaning?
  • 19:23 - 19:25
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] I gave examples to you just now,
  • 19:25 - 19:27
    when it was stated,
    "Main Yaghfuru Bitaghut",
  • 19:27 - 19:31
    one who denies Taghut, obviously,
    here that 'Kufr' which the Quran
  • 19:31 - 19:34
    declares as the biggest deviation,
    hasn't been used in that meaning.
  • 19:34 - 19:36
    Here it is used on
    the occasion for praise.
  • 19:36 - 19:38
    Hence, on different occasions,
  • 19:38 - 19:40
    even while speaking the
    Arabic language
  • 19:40 - 19:42
    we use this word,
    If I wish to say that
  • 19:42 - 19:44
    so and so person does
    not even accept that
  • 19:44 - 19:47
    the Earth revolves
    around the Sun,
  • 19:47 - 19:49
    he does not agree, denies it,
    negates it,
  • 19:49 - 19:54
    then we can use the word 'Kafir' for it
    and will do it without hesitation.
  • 19:54 - 19:58
    Here the topic itself will tell
    that it is in the literal sense.
  • 19:58 - 20:00
    And when we will bring it
    into its technical use
  • 20:00 - 20:04
    then obviously the aspect of
    discussion will become clear from it.
  • 20:04 - 20:07
    These interpretations
    will become clear to you by themselves.
  • 20:07 - 20:12
    Now you see that
    I am beginning from Surah 'Aaraaf',
  • 20:12 - 20:18
    The Aayaat of Surah Aaraaf which I am
    going to read to you start from 75.
  • 20:18 - 20:21
    It is stated,"Qalal Malaiul
    Lazee Nastakbiru Min Qaumihi
  • 20:21 - 20:24
    Lil Lazee Nastuzifu Li Man
    Aamana Minhum Wa Talamuna
  • 20:24 - 20:28
    Anna Salihan Mursalum Mir Rabbi
    Qalu Inna Bima Ursila Bihi Muminoon".
  • 20:28 - 20:33
    The elders of his nation
    who had become arrogant said
  • 20:33 - 20:36
    to their subordinates
    who had accepted Iman,
  • 20:36 - 20:39
    i.e. on one side are the
    people who are weak,
  • 20:39 - 20:42
    they have accepted Iman,
    who are in opposition to them?
  • 20:42 - 20:46
    The elders of the nation.
    The leaders, heads, they are asking them,
  • 20:46 - 20:49
    "Do you think that Saleh
    has been sent by his Lord?
  • 20:49 - 20:50
    [Hassan] Okay.
  • 20:50 - 20:52
    [Ghamidi] i.e. such a silly thing
    is being said.
  • 20:52 - 20:55
    Do you think that a person
    who was born among us
  • 20:55 - 20:57
    has been chosen by Allah (swt)
    and made a Prophet?
  • 20:57 - 21:01
    They replied, who are they?
    The subordinates.
  • 21:01 - 21:04
    They replied that they accept the
    Message with which he has been sent.
  • 21:04 - 21:06
    [Hassan] Okay.
    [Ghamidi] So what are the words used.
  • 21:06 - 21:09
    "Inna Bima Ursila
    Bihi Muminoon".
  • 21:09 - 21:12
    Obviously, the same term has been
    used here which we use for Iman.
  • 21:12 - 21:17
    When I will be asked, I will say that
    I am the Momin of the Prophet (pbuh).
  • 21:17 - 21:18
    I am the Momin
    of the Prophets.
  • 21:18 - 21:20
    So what reply
    did they give?
  • 21:20 - 21:23
    They replied that the Dawah
    which Saleh has come down with,
  • 21:23 - 21:24
    we are its Momin.
  • 21:24 - 21:27
    Exactly the same interpretation
    which we use for Iman,
  • 21:27 - 21:30
    they adopted the same.
    In reply to it,
  • 21:30 - 21:34
    "Qalal Lazee Nastakbiru Inna
    Billazee Amantum Bihi Kaafiroon".
  • 21:34 - 21:37
    On this, the arrogant said,
    i.e. how are they responding,
  • 21:37 - 21:41
    They replied 'But we deny that which
    you have accepted'.
  • 21:41 - 21:44
    [Hassan] Okay.
    [Ghamidi] So now when they said this,
  • 21:44 - 21:45
    what was the term
    used by them?
  • 21:45 - 21:49
    "Inna Billazee Amantum
    Bihi Kaafiroon",
  • 21:49 - 21:52
    i.e. on that which you have brought
    Iman, i.e. on which you are Momin,
  • 21:52 - 21:53
    we are its 'Kafir'.
  • 21:53 - 21:55
    [Hassan] They said themselves
    that they are its kafir.
  • 21:55 - 21:56
    [Ghamidi] That we
    are its 'Kafirs'.
  • 21:56 - 22:00
    So I am saying when
    the Quran has for these nations,
  • 22:00 - 22:06
    for their leaders, for their heads,
    used the word Kafir
  • 22:06 - 22:10
    when they themselves are
    proclaiming themselves as Kafir.
  • 22:10 - 22:13
    They are self-confessed criminals
    in their 'Kufr' (Disbelief).
  • 22:13 - 22:16
    i.e. they are stepping ahead
    and proclaiming that
  • 22:16 - 22:19
    the Dawah the Prophet (pbuh) has
    come with, we are clearly denying it.
  • 22:19 - 22:21
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] Let us go ahead.
  • 22:21 - 22:26
    Now, this is Surah Ibrahim,
    I will read it from Ayah 9,
  • 22:26 - 22:30
    "Alam Yaatikum Nabaullazeena
    Min Qablikum Qaumi Nuhim
  • 22:30 - 22:33
    Wa Aadim Wa Samud
    Wallazeena Mim Baadihim
  • 22:33 - 22:37
    Laa Yaalamuhum Ilallah
    Jaatuhum Rasuluhum Bil Bayyinaati
  • 22:37 - 22:43
    Fa Raddu Aidiyahum Fi Afwahihim
    Wa Qalu Inna Kafarna Bima Ursiltum
  • 22:43 - 22:48
    Bihi, Wa Inna Lafi Shakkim
    Mimma Tadunana Ilahi Mureeb"
  • 22:48 - 22:49
    Its translation is,
  • 22:49 - 22:53
    "Has there not reached you
    the news of those before you",
  • 22:53 - 22:56
    now you see that the Prophets
    of Allah who have come,
  • 22:56 - 22:57
    their reference is given,
  • 22:57 - 23:01
    'Has there not reached you
    the news of those before you",
  • 23:01 - 23:05
    the people of Noah and Aad and
    Samud and those after them?
  • 23:05 - 23:08
    i.e. the mention of all the
    Prophets has been made.
  • 23:08 - 23:11
    No one knows
    them but Allah.
  • 23:11 - 23:14
    i.e. all the Prophets, about
    whom you don't even know
  • 23:14 - 23:18
    as to who all were they?
    I am going to talk about all of them.
  • 23:18 - 23:19
    This is stated by Allah (swt).
  • 23:19 - 23:21
    "No one knows
    them but Allah.
  • 23:21 - 23:24
    Their Messengers",
    i.e. the prophets of those nations,
  • 23:24 - 23:26
    the different nations
    that existed in the world.
  • 23:26 - 23:30
    "Their Messengers brought
    them clear proofs".
  • 23:30 - 23:33
    "But they placed their hands to
    their mouths to shut them up".
  • 23:33 - 23:39
    i.e. they refused to listen to them.
    And said, "Indeed, we disbelieve in that
  • 23:39 - 23:41
    with which you have been sent".
  • 23:41 - 23:42
    What are the words?
  • 23:42 - 23:45
    "Inna Kafarna Bima Ursiltum Bihi".
  • 23:45 - 23:46
    The same term
    'Kufr' is used.
  • 23:46 - 23:51
    We have done 'Kufr'
    with what you have been sent.
  • 23:51 - 23:53
    [Hassan] They have themselves
    confessed for it.
  • 23:53 - 23:54
    [Ghamidi] They have
    confessed it themselves.
  • 23:54 - 23:56
    "We disbelieve in that
  • 23:56 - 23:59
    and indeed,
    about that to which you invite us,
  • 23:59 - 24:01
    we are really in troublesome doubt".
  • 24:01 - 24:05
    i.e. here is a confession for their
    suspicion as well as their 'Kufr'.
  • 24:05 - 24:07
    Both the points had
    been stated nonchalantly.
  • 24:07 - 24:10
    And therefore they have
    themselves confessed
  • 24:10 - 24:13
    to the point that they are 'Kafir',
    we have accepted
  • 24:13 - 24:17
    'Kufr' in place of Deen,
    on one side, there are Momin
  • 24:17 - 24:20
    who are expressing Iman
    on the Prophet,
  • 24:20 - 24:22
    on the other are we,
    who deny the Dawah of the Prophet,
  • 24:22 - 24:24
    as we say in
    Urdu, 'Munkir',
  • 24:24 - 24:26
    and if we say it in
    Arabic, then it is 'Kafir'.
  • 24:26 - 24:29
    "Inna Bima Ursiltum
    Bihi Kaafiroon".
  • 24:29 - 24:31
    This has been stated.
  • 24:31 - 24:36
    After this is Surah Haam Mim as-Sajdah.
    I shall read the Aayaat, from Ayah 13.
  • 24:36 - 24:39
    "Fa In Aarazu Fa Qul Anzartukum
    Saaiqatim Misla Saaiqati
  • 24:39 - 24:43
    Aaddin Wa Samud Iz Jaat
    Humur Rusulu Mim Baine
  • 24:43 - 24:47
    Aidihim Wa Mim Khalfihim
    Alla Taabudu Ilallahu Qalu
  • 24:47 - 24:53
    Lau Sha'a Rabbuna La Anzala Malaika
    Wa Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"
  • 24:53 - 24:56
    The translation is,
    "But if they turn their faces",
  • 24:56 - 24:59
    i.e the Prophet is giving Dawah
    and they are evading him.
  • 24:59 - 25:02
    "But if they turn their faces,
    then say to them",
  • 25:02 - 25:06
    'I warn you of a thunderbolt
    like the thunderbolt,
  • 25:06 - 25:08
    which overtook Aad and Samud"
  • 25:08 - 25:10
    This is being said to the
    Prophet of Allah that
  • 25:10 - 25:13
    he must tell them that they
    too are negating a Prophet,
  • 25:13 - 25:19
    they too are refusing a Prophet's mission,
    you too are falsifying a Prophet.
  • 25:19 - 25:22
    so the consequences that
    are there for negating a Prophet,
  • 25:22 - 25:25
    I am warning you about them.
  • 25:25 - 25:27
    "When Messengers came
    to them from before them
  • 25:27 - 25:30
    and behind them, i.e. Dawah was given
    to them from every side,
  • 25:30 - 25:32
    so that they may be made to
    understand from each aspect,
  • 25:32 - 25:37
    saying, 'Worship none but Allah'.
    This is the summary of their Dawah.
  • 25:37 - 25:43
    "They said, 'Had our Lord so wished,
    He would have sent down Angels'.
  • 25:43 - 25:46
    How come you have
    stood amongst us?
  • 25:46 - 25:48
    "Therefore", now listen to the reply,
  • 25:48 - 25:52
    "we disbelieve in the Message
    with what you have been sent"
  • 25:52 - 25:56
    "we are 'Kafirs' of the Message
    with which you have been sent".
  • 25:56 - 25:57
    What are the original words?
  • 25:57 - 26:00
    "Fa Inna Bima Ursiltum
    Bihi Kaafiroon"
  • 26:00 - 26:02
    so note here too, they are
    themselves confessing
  • 26:02 - 26:05
    to the fact that they are
    'Kafirs' of that Message,
  • 26:05 - 26:07
    they are not ready
    to accept that Message.
  • 26:07 - 26:10
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] And at the end of this chain,
  • 26:10 - 26:13
    I am reading a part of
    Surah 'Zukhruf',
  • 26:13 - 26:16
    here the full point has
    been stated in great detail.
  • 26:16 - 26:20
    The Aayaat start from Ayah 20
    onwards. It is stated,
  • 26:20 - 26:25
    "Wa Qaalu Lau Sha ar Rahmanu
    Ma Abadnahum Maalahum
  • 26:25 - 26:29
    Bi Zaalika Min Ilm In Hum
    Billah Yakhrusun
  • 26:29 - 26:31
    Am Atainahum Kitaabun Mim
    Qablihim Fa Hum Bihi
  • 26:31 - 26:37
    Mustamsikoon Bal Qalu
    Inna Wajadna Aabaa'ana
  • 26:37 - 26:40
    Ala Ummatin Wa Inna Ala
    Asaarihim Muhtadoon
  • 26:40 - 26:44
    Wa Kazaalika Maa Arsalna
    Min Qablika Fi Kariatim
  • 26:44 - 26:49
    Min Nazeer Illa Qala
    Mutarafuha Inna Wajadna
  • 26:49 - 26:52
    Aaba'ana Ala Ummatim Wa
    Inna Ala Asaarihim Muqtadoon
  • 26:52 - 26:56
    Qala Wa Lau Jetukum Bi
    Ahda Minwajadtum Alaihi
  • 26:56 - 27:00
    aba'a kum Qaalu Inna
    Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon
  • 27:00 - 27:05
    Fan Taqamna Minhum Fanzur
    Kaifa Kana Aaqibatul Mukazzibin"
  • 27:05 - 27:07
    Now look at the translation,
  • 27:07 - 27:09
    And they said, "If the Most
    Merciful had wished"
  • 27:09 - 27:12
    "And they said,
    "If Most Merciful God had wished,
  • 27:12 - 27:14
    we would not have
    worshipped them".
  • 27:14 - 27:16
    i.e. the Prophets came,
    they are giving Dawah for Tawheed,
  • 27:16 - 27:19
    they are stopping them from Shirk,
    and in reply they are saying,
  • 27:19 - 27:21
    "If Most Merciful God had wished,
  • 27:21 - 27:23
    we would not have
    worshipped them".
  • 27:23 - 27:27
    They have no knowledge of this.
    They are merely guessing.
  • 27:27 - 27:31
    "Or have we given
    them a book before
  • 27:31 - 27:34
    to which they are adhering to in support
    of their foolishness".
  • 27:34 - 27:36
    Nay! They say,
  • 27:36 - 27:39
    "We found our fathers
    following a superior way
  • 27:39 - 27:44
    and religion, and we guide
    ourselves by their footsteps".
  • 27:44 - 27:49
    And similarly, O Prophet, We sent not
    a warner before you to any town
  • 27:49 - 27:52
    This is purely a general style ...
  • 27:52 - 27:55
    this has happened in all cases,
    this has taken place with all peoples.
  • 27:55 - 27:57
    This has happened with
    the nations of every Prophet.
  • 27:57 - 28:01
    "We sent not a warner
    before you to any town"
  • 28:01 - 28:06
    but the rich ones among them
    the 'Aghnia', the elders, its elite,
  • 28:06 - 28:09
    "but those living in luxury
    among them, said this only
  • 28:09 - 28:13
    "We found our fathers
    following a superior way
  • 28:13 - 28:16
    and religion, and we guide
    ourselves by their footsteps".
  • 28:16 - 28:20
    Their warner, i.e. the
    Prophet said,
  • 28:20 - 28:25
    "Even if I bring you
    better guidance than it,
  • 28:25 - 28:31
    i.e. still will you follow that way?
    "which you found your fathers following?"
  • 28:31 - 28:34
    They replied, "Verily,
    We are disbelievers (Kafir)
  • 28:34 - 28:37
    in that with which
    you have been sent."
  • 28:37 - 28:39
    [Hassan] Okay.
    [Ghamidi] "Qaalu Inna Bima
  • 28:39 - 28:41
    Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"
  • 28:41 - 28:44
    With what you have been sent
  • 28:44 - 28:48
    we do not accept it, we deny it,
    we are its 'Kafir'.
  • 28:48 - 28:51
    When the matter has
    reached to such a pass,
  • 28:51 - 28:55
    so We took retribution on them for their
    rebellion.
  • 28:55 - 28:57
    Then see what was the end of those
    who denied?
  • 28:57 - 29:02
    Hence you see, a few places of
    the Quran have been presented to you.
  • 29:02 - 29:07
    The point is that the Quran
    adopts the technical terminology
  • 29:07 - 29:13
    of the word 'Kufr' on any occasion
    when it tells that what is Kufr?
  • 29:13 - 29:16
    When it tells as to
    who are the Kuffaar (Kafirs).
  • 29:16 - 29:22
    Exactly similar to when it tells what is
    Iman and who is a Momin or a Muslim?
  • 29:22 - 29:26
    This is the statement of Dawah.
    It is the description of the Deen.
  • 29:26 - 29:31
    Or it will use it when it points
    to a specific group,
  • 29:31 - 29:35
    and will give its reference that this
    was said by the Deniers (Kafirs).
  • 29:35 - 29:37
    This was said by the 'Munkirs'.
    So who are these people?
  • 29:37 - 29:41
    These are the people who have
    themselves confessed of their 'Kufr'.
  • 29:41 - 29:43
    They voice their 'Kufr' by themselves.
  • 29:43 - 29:45
    Hence in the Quran these are
    two interpretations,
  • 29:45 - 29:49
    or the two facets
    of the word,
  • 29:49 - 29:52
    which has been adopted in
    different places by Allah (swt).
  • 29:52 - 29:56
    These are the usages in Quran.
  • 29:56 - 30:01
    In the matter of the usages of the Quran,
    there cannot be two opinions.
  • 30:01 - 30:05
    i.e. you, the Ulema
    of Muslim Ummah, or I,
  • 30:05 - 30:08
    who can have a second
    opinion in this matter?
  • 30:08 - 30:14
    Obviously, when we have to state Deen
    to the people, what will we tell them?
  • 30:14 - 30:17
    We will only tell them as
    to what is Islam or what is Iman?
  • 30:17 - 30:20
    [Hassan] The standards.
    [Ghamidi] And when we would explain,
  • 30:20 - 30:22
    that be steadfast on this Iman,
    or on this Islam,
  • 30:22 - 30:25
    then against it sometimes
    Shirk would come into the discussion
  • 30:25 - 30:27
    or sometimes Kufr'
    would be discussed.
  • 30:27 - 30:31
    And we shall only tell as to
    what is Kufr or who is a Kafir?
  • 30:31 - 30:33
    These things have been
    mentioned in Ahadees,
  • 30:33 - 30:38
    in the discussions of Ulema as well.
    You and I would also state them.
  • 30:38 - 30:40
    I am repeatedly drawing
    attention that
  • 30:40 - 30:42
    there isn't any scope
    of disagreement in this.
  • 30:42 - 30:44
    [Hassan] Absolutely no scope.
    [Ghamidi] After this comes,
  • 30:44 - 30:47
    the pronouncement about
    a particular person or group
  • 30:47 - 30:50
    that they are Kafir.
  • 30:50 - 30:55
    The topic 'Takfeer' which has been
    given is now being discussed.
  • 30:55 - 31:00
    Now, what lies here. It is not
    that I am stating what is Kufr?
  • 31:00 - 31:05
    Or I am defining a kafir.
    Or I am defining that this is theft.
  • 31:05 - 31:07
    Or I am stating what
    constitutes a thief?
  • 31:07 - 31:09
    Or I am stating that
    this is adultery.
  • 31:09 - 31:12
    Or that I am stating this
    is what an adulterer is.
  • 31:12 - 31:14
    No, things have
    moved ahead of this.
  • 31:14 - 31:17
    [Hassan] You are an adulterer.
    [Ghamidi] I'm saying that 'You are Kafir'.
  • 31:17 - 31:19
    I say that you are an adulterer.
    I am saying that you are a thief.
  • 31:19 - 31:21
    i.e. my addressee can
    be an individual
  • 31:21 - 31:25
    or my addressee can be a
    group or a collective as well.
  • 31:25 - 31:30
    When I proclaim this,
    things do not remain as simple.
  • 31:30 - 31:36
    I have elaborated its one situation that
    when we will read the Quran thoughtfully
  • 31:36 - 31:39
    then we will learn that
    the nations of the Prophets
  • 31:39 - 31:43
    who have disbelieved in the Prophets,
    then their elite, their arrogant,
  • 31:43 - 31:47
    their elders, their heads,
    they stepped ahead themselves
  • 31:47 - 31:49
    and listened to the
    Dawah of the Prophets,
  • 31:49 - 31:52
    and after that said,
    "Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"
  • 31:52 - 31:53
    [Hassan] They had
    confessed themselves.
  • 31:53 - 31:54
    [Ghamidi] We are Kafirs (of it).
  • 31:54 - 31:58
    Hence the question doesn't arise
    of pronouncing someone as Kafir.
  • 31:58 - 32:00
    Here an admission has
    taken place,
  • 32:00 - 32:04
    i.e. when I said that I am a Momin,
    so now I am a confessional Momin,
  • 32:04 - 32:08
    and when I said that I am a Kafir, so
    now I am a confessional Kafir.
  • 32:08 - 32:11
    In the same way, when I had
    stepped ahead to confess that
  • 32:11 - 32:15
    I am a thief, or I am an adulterer,
    or I said that I am a robber,
  • 32:15 - 32:19
    or I have committed robbery.
    So when I am confessing my crime myself,
  • 32:19 - 32:23
    after this, the question never arises
    as to whether
  • 32:23 - 32:28
    he is to be called a Kafir or not.
    i.e. this Takfeer hasn't been done by me,
  • 32:28 - 32:30
    he himself has confessed of his Kufr.
  • 32:30 - 32:32
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] What does Takfeer mean?
  • 32:32 - 32:36
    Takfeer means that
    I proclaim someone to be a 'Kafir'.
  • 32:36 - 32:40
    i.e. I have to declare of someone else,
    that he/she is Kafir.
  • 32:40 - 32:42
    This is termed as 'Takfeer'.
  • 32:42 - 32:44
    We should first make this
    word very clear.
  • 32:44 - 32:48
    The point with which I have
    differed starts from here.
  • 32:48 - 32:51
    [Hassan] Okay.
    [Ghamidi] i.e. whatever I have said
  • 32:51 - 32:54
    prior to it, there isn't any scope
    of having any difference of opinion.
  • 32:54 - 32:57
    'Kufr' will also be stated and
    who is a Kafir, will also be explained.
  • 32:57 - 33:00
    In the same way,
    this too will be stated that
  • 33:00 - 33:04
    the arrogant from so and so tribe
    have declared themselves as 'Kafir'.
  • 33:04 - 33:06
    The Prophets also referred
    to them in the same way.
  • 33:06 - 33:08
    When the elite
    among them said,
  • 33:08 - 33:10
    the Prophets too referred
    to them in the same way.
  • 33:10 - 33:12
    This will be stated by you
    as well as by me,
  • 33:12 - 33:15
    there does not arise any question
    of debate on this point.
  • 33:15 - 33:19
    Where does the point start from?
    The point starts from those people,
  • 33:19 - 33:24
    the specific group, or collective,
    or a particular person,
  • 33:24 - 33:28
    they are neither
    accepting nor denying.
  • 33:28 - 33:30
    They did not own up that
    they are Kafir.
  • 33:30 - 33:33
    The Dawah did not
    reach any of them.
  • 33:33 - 33:34
    None was even told of it.
  • 33:34 - 33:37
    At present, if we look
    around in the world,
  • 33:37 - 33:41
    we may find 10 or 20 thousand
    people who are stepping ahead
  • 33:41 - 33:44
    and openly declaring that we
    are 'Munkir' (Denier) of Islam.
  • 33:44 - 33:47
    We are 'Kafir'. These are not
    included in this.
  • 33:47 - 33:49
    They are confessing to their 'Kufr'.
  • 33:49 - 33:52
    [Hassan] They are in the first category.
    [Ghamidi] They would be active
  • 33:52 - 33:54
    on the social media, would
    be writing in newspapers,
  • 33:54 - 33:56
    or would be
    writing some book,
  • 33:56 - 34:00
    so the intellectuals
    and the like are coming forward
  • 34:00 - 34:02
    and confessing to their
    atheism and their 'Kufr'.
  • 34:02 - 34:04
    What discussion will we do with them?
  • 34:04 - 34:05
    Or what I will say about them?
  • 34:05 - 34:07
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] Whatever they are saying,
  • 34:07 - 34:09
    I will give a reference of them.
  • 34:09 - 34:12
    i.e. if I have to refer to
    them sometime at all,
  • 34:12 - 34:15
    then I will say that so and so
    atheist has this opinion
  • 34:15 - 34:17
    and so and so sceptic
    hold this opinion.
  • 34:17 - 34:18
    And so and so
    Kafir has this opinion.
  • 34:18 - 34:19
    [Hassan] He himself is telling it.
  • 34:19 - 34:21
    [Ghamidi] for the reason they are
    telling this about themselves.
  • 34:21 - 34:23
    They are introducing
    themselves in this capacity.
  • 34:23 - 34:26
    They are comimg forward with
    their Dawah, i.e. the Dawah for 'Kufr'.
  • 34:26 - 34:29
    The way we have come forward
    with the Dawah for Islam,
  • 34:29 - 34:31
    they have come forward
    with the Dawah for Kufr.
  • 34:31 - 34:33
    However, presently, there
    are billions of people,
  • 34:33 - 34:36
    who have neither taken a
    stand on denial or acceptance.
  • 34:36 - 34:39
    [Hassan] For example?
    [Ghamidi] Presently, our Hindus,
  • 34:39 - 34:43
    Christians, Buddhists,
    all of these people
  • 34:43 - 34:47
    who surround us that these
    are in millions and billions,
  • 34:47 - 34:51
    i.e. the Muslim population
    of the world is 1.5 billion at the most.
  • 34:51 - 34:54
    Rest of the people who surround us,
  • 34:54 - 34:57
    we see in our own country,
    the Christians, the Hindus,
  • 34:57 - 35:00
    they are following
    their ancestral Deen,
  • 35:00 - 35:02
    who has presented
    the Dawah to them?
  • 35:02 - 35:06
    When have they denied?
    Neither acceptance nor denial.
  • 35:06 - 35:08
    They are living their lives.
  • 35:08 - 35:10
    These are the people
    about whom we are discussing
  • 35:10 - 35:12
    as to what we have
    to say about them?
  • 35:12 - 35:16
    Regarding them, I have stated
    the point that
  • 35:16 - 35:20
    we cannot call them with any name
    other than Non-Muslims.
  • 35:20 - 35:21
    [Hassan] Okay.
    [Ghamidi] These are the people
  • 35:21 - 35:22
    who are under discussion.
  • 35:22 - 35:26
    Those people are not under discussion
    who have confessed of their 'Kufr'.
  • 35:26 - 35:29
    Those people are not under discussion
    who are calling people to Kufr.
  • 35:29 - 35:31
    i.e. they are proclaiming that
    they are Kafir,
  • 35:31 - 35:33
    they are proclaiming
    that they are Mushrik.
  • 35:33 - 35:38
    Like, before Yathrib (Madinah)
    when the Prophet (pbuh) was in Makkah,
  • 35:38 - 35:41
    then the polytheists of Arabia
    used to say that
  • 35:41 - 35:45
    they have adopted
    Shirk as their Deen.
  • 35:45 - 35:48
    That is not under discussion.
    The subject of discussion is
  • 35:48 - 35:51
    these people who are spread
    across the world,
  • 35:51 - 35:53
    they are residing
    in our countries,
  • 35:53 - 35:57
    look at Egypt, Iraq, Syria,
    Jordan or the sub-continent,
  • 35:57 - 36:03
    there a tens of Millions
    of Hindus, and followers of Buddhism,
  • 36:03 - 36:06
    tens of millions of Christians,
    are there, these are the people
  • 36:06 - 36:11
    about whom the question arises
    that can we call them Kafir?
  • 36:11 - 36:13
    This is the question to
    which I have replied that
  • 36:13 - 36:17
    there isn't even the question
    of rejecting the Dawah
  • 36:17 - 36:20
    of the Prophets among them.
    They are like us,
  • 36:20 - 36:23
    as we are born in our homes,
    the Deen which is taught by our parents
  • 36:23 - 36:26
    we follow it accordingly,
    the same is their situation.
  • 36:26 - 36:28
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] i.e. whatever they have learned
  • 36:28 - 36:31
    from their parents, whatever
    they have received from their society,
  • 36:31 - 36:33
    accordingly, they are
    spending their lives.
  • 36:33 - 36:37
    And that what would be their fate is not
    in the purview of our discussion now.
  • 36:37 - 36:40
    What would we call them?
    So have they stepped forward
  • 36:40 - 36:45
    to declare Iman? They haven't done so.
    So we can't call them a Momin.
  • 36:45 - 36:48
    We can't declare them a Muslim.
    Have they stepped ahead
  • 36:48 - 36:51
    and negated our
    Deen and the Prophets?
  • 36:51 - 36:52
    We can't call them Kafir too.
  • 36:52 - 36:54
    [Hassan] Practically it is so
    if they haven't accepted it.
  • 36:54 - 36:56
    [Ghamidi] Practically, everyone
    stands at the same level.
  • 36:56 - 36:59
    We too are practically
    negating many things.
  • 36:59 - 37:04
    Hence, I have explained to you that
    the moment a person comes forward
  • 37:04 - 37:08
    and proclaims that
    I have indulged in Kufr,
  • 37:08 - 37:12
    at that time he himself
    confesses to his crime.
  • 37:12 - 37:16
    He himself is confessing
    to his sin or of his creed.
  • 37:16 - 37:18
    Till now he hasn't even accepted
    any of the two.
  • 37:18 - 37:20
    When we will approach them
    with the Dawah,
  • 37:20 - 37:23
    i.e. when did the Prophets
    raise this question?
  • 37:23 - 37:26
    When they had presented their Dawah?
    When they took the message across.
  • 37:26 - 37:28
    When they presented
    their point to them.
  • 37:28 - 37:31
    When they presented it, their
    followers said that
  • 37:31 - 37:34
    we have accepted Iman
    on them, we are Momin,
  • 37:34 - 37:37
    in reply the arrogant among them said
    that we are 'Kafir'
  • 37:37 - 37:39
    deniers of what they have brought.
  • 37:39 - 37:40
    [Hassan] The point is absolutely clear.
  • 37:40 - 37:44
    [Ghamidi] So there the line of demarcation
    is drawn in the most certain terms.
  • 37:44 - 37:48
    Here the countless people
    are an audience for our Dawah.
  • 37:48 - 37:50
    We shall communicate Deen to them.
  • 37:50 - 37:52
    We shall take the Book
    of Allah across to them.
  • 37:52 - 37:54
    We shall present them
    with the Message of Allah.
  • 37:54 - 37:58
    To them, we will tell
    what is Kufr?
  • 37:58 - 38:00
    To them, we will convey
    as to what is Iman?
  • 38:00 - 38:02
    We will tell them
    who is called a 'kafir'?
  • 38:02 - 38:05
    We will teach
    them who is a Momin?
  • 38:05 - 38:08
    Here our relationship with
    them is that of Dawah.
  • 38:08 - 38:12
    We cannot adopt the
    way of Takfeer regarding them.
  • 38:12 - 38:16
    Firstly, now I am telling you,
    what is the point that I am making?
  • 38:16 - 38:18
    What is the extent of the
    point which I have stated?
  • 38:18 - 38:21
    So I am now going to read
    to you my own words.
  • 38:21 - 38:24
    This is from my book 'Maqamaat',
    here we have an article
  • 38:24 - 38:26
    with the title
    'Muslim and Non-Muslim'.
  • 38:26 - 38:31
    I have written here,
    "Other than Islam,
  • 38:31 - 38:36
    the rest of the followers of all
    religions are called Non-Muslims.
  • 38:36 - 38:40
    i.e. we have a particular strength of
    number in this world, so all of us,
  • 38:40 - 38:43
    irrespective of being good or bad
    or whatever, what are we called?
  • 38:43 - 38:46
    Muslims. Who are the ones
    who are other than us?
  • 38:46 - 38:50
    Those who are not Muslims.
    Other than the followers of Islam,
  • 38:50 - 38:54
    the followers of all religions
    are called Non-Muslims.
  • 38:54 - 39:00
    The same term is for those too who
    do not subscribe to any religion.
  • 39:00 - 39:02
    We call them the same
    i.e. they are Non-Muslims.
  • 39:02 - 39:06
    It is not a word of insult,
    rather it is an expression
  • 39:06 - 39:09
    of the fact that they
    do not believe in Islam.
  • 39:09 - 39:11
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] i.e. what are they saying?
  • 39:11 - 39:16
    You had said, what does a Hindu say?
    i.e. through his conduct.
  • 39:16 - 39:18
    He says that I do
    not believe in Islam.
  • 39:18 - 39:20
    He is saying just this much.
  • 39:20 - 39:21
    [Hassan] Since he is Non-Muslim
    and this is implied with it.
  • 39:21 - 39:23
    [Ghamidi] He being a Non-Muslim,
    it is his statement.
  • 39:23 - 39:26
    He hasn't introduced
    himself as a Kafir.
  • 39:26 - 39:29
    Since the process of
    that relationship of Dawah
  • 39:29 - 39:33
    is yet to be established with him, post
    which the issue of Kufr or Iman arises.
  • 39:33 - 39:36
    He is just saying that I
    do not subscribe to Islam.
  • 39:36 - 39:38
    Generally, such people
    are also called 'Kafir'.
  • 39:38 - 39:43
    i.e. people often call these
    Non-Muslims as Kafir.
  • 39:43 - 39:46
    However, I have elaborated with
    justifications that
  • 39:46 - 39:50
    for Takfeer, the Conclusive communication
    of God's proof is required.
  • 39:50 - 39:54
    Now, the point is that the Completion
    of Arguments of God's truth is a must.
  • 39:54 - 39:59
    What does it imply?
    It implies that when we say,
  • 39:59 - 40:01
    that so and so person
    is a thief,
  • 40:01 - 40:05
    and that person comes and
    owns up that he is in fact a thief,
  • 40:05 - 40:10
    then no witnesses are required.
    There is no need for a lawsuit.
  • 40:10 - 40:13
    If the matter is put up
    before a judge then
  • 40:13 - 40:18
    at the most, as I had said,
    he will record that confession,
  • 40:18 - 40:21
    like when people came
    to the Prophet (pbuh)
  • 40:21 - 40:25
    and confessed to adultery and stated
    that they have committed this crime,
  • 40:25 - 40:29
    so the Prophet (pbuh) asked some
    questions an emphatic tone,
  • 40:29 - 40:32
    so that it gets completely
    clear as to
  • 40:32 - 40:35
    what are they speaking and
    what is their confession?
  • 40:35 - 40:38
    Hence, the punishment was imposed
    based on the confession.
  • 40:38 - 40:40
    Here there isn't any
    need for a debate.
  • 40:40 - 40:44
    I am telling about a person
    that he is an adulterer,
  • 40:44 - 40:49
    I am saying that he is a thief, now
    a great responsibility has come upon me,
  • 40:49 - 40:52
    i.e. what is it now? Now
    I have to establish my case.
  • 40:52 - 40:55
    Hence this act of establishing
    the case,
  • 40:55 - 40:58
    is called Itmam-e Hujjat
    (Conclusive proof of God's Truth).
  • 40:58 - 41:01
    i.e. when a matter is carried out
    in a Court, then what does a Court do?
  • 41:01 - 41:05
    The Court asks the person
    whether he confesses to this crime?
  • 41:05 - 41:09
    If he confesses to that crime.
    then there is no issue.
  • 41:09 - 41:13
    However, if he says that no,
    this is an accusation against me,
  • 41:13 - 41:16
    this is a blame put on me,
    I haven't committed any theft,
  • 41:16 - 41:19
    I haven't committed adultery.
    So now it is a must that
  • 41:19 - 41:21
    the conclusive proof is
    established on him
  • 41:21 - 41:23
    and how does that proof
    gets established?
  • 41:23 - 41:26
    It gets established through witnesses.
    After that, we accumulate
  • 41:26 - 41:31
    circumstantial evidence,
    post that we bring in various proofs
  • 41:31 - 41:36
    and after this, the Judge passes
    the judgement that he is a thief.
  • 41:36 - 41:40
    After this, now we have the
    right to call him a thief.
  • 41:40 - 41:43
    After this we get the
    right to call him a thief.
  • 41:43 - 41:47
    Before this, if we say anything
    about a person then either
  • 41:47 - 41:50
    a libel suit will be filed against us,
  • 41:50 - 41:55
    and if we accuse someone of adultery,
    then 80 lashes will be given on our backs.
  • 41:55 - 41:57
    It is not a simple issue.
    If the confession is there
  • 41:57 - 42:00
    then there isn't any question.
    We haven't committed any crime.
  • 42:00 - 42:04
    If the confession does not exist,
    then there are lawsuits,
  • 42:04 - 42:07
    first there would be established
    conclusive proof for it,
  • 42:07 - 42:10
    i.e. through arguments,
    through evidence and witnesses,
  • 42:10 - 42:13
    his crime would be proven on him,
    when it is proven,
  • 42:13 - 42:15
    the Court will give
    its verdict on it.
  • 42:15 - 42:17
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] With regard to Kufr and Shirk,
  • 42:17 - 42:22
    which is the Court?
    The Court of the Lord of the skies.
  • 42:22 - 42:26
    This lawsuit does not
    relate to any worldly Court.
  • 42:26 - 42:28
    This lawsuit goes into
    the Court of God,
  • 42:28 - 42:31
    so when the Prophets
    or the Messengers of Allah
  • 42:31 - 42:34
    are on Earth, then Allah
    gives His Verdict.
  • 42:34 - 42:37
    And when the Verdict is given,
    so the Quran has told us
  • 42:37 - 42:39
    the punishments for Kufr and Shirk.
  • 42:39 - 42:42
    Azaab-e Aleem (Extreme Torture)
    and Azaab-e Azeem (Great Torment).
  • 42:42 - 42:45
    These are not ordinary crimes.
    When we say that so and so person
  • 42:45 - 42:47
    has committed 'Kufr'
    like when we say that
  • 42:47 - 42:50
    so and so person is a thief,
    then its punishment is declared,
  • 42:50 - 42:53
    that hand is chopped off,
    in the same way,
  • 42:53 - 42:56
    when we say he is Mushrik,
    when we say he is a kafir,
  • 42:56 - 42:59
    whether it is an individual or a group,
  • 42:59 - 43:01
    then what is the punishment
    for it from Allah (swt)?
  • 43:01 - 43:05
    Azaab-e Azeem or Azaab-e Aleem.
    Torturous Torment, great agony.
  • 43:05 - 43:10
    Its punishment is the hellfire.
    Hence the court of Allah (swt) decides.
  • 43:10 - 43:13
    It decides in the world,
    when the Prophets are sent.
  • 43:13 - 43:15
    It will make the judgement
    in Aakhirah
  • 43:15 - 43:17
    when the Court is
    established on that Day.
  • 43:17 - 43:22
    Hence for both these decrees, the final
    proof of God's truth is required.
  • 43:22 - 43:24
    'Itmaam-e Hujjat' implies
    here the same exercise
  • 43:24 - 43:27
    that was carried out to prove
    the accused as the thief.
  • 43:27 - 43:30
    The same exercise would be done
    here too,
  • 43:30 - 43:32
    and with what objective
    would it be done?
  • 43:32 - 43:34
    To prove an accused
    Kafir as a Kafir,
  • 43:34 - 43:36
    as he has not
    confessed to his Kufr.
  • 43:36 - 43:39
    [Hassan] Right.
    [Ghamidi] So when we say about someone
  • 43:39 - 43:42
    that he is a Mushrik,
    or he is a Kafir,
  • 43:42 - 43:46
    I repeat again if we say that
    it is Kufr or we say that it is Shirk,
  • 43:46 - 43:48
    then we are describing the Deen.
  • 43:48 - 43:51
    We are putting an academic
    suit before the people.
  • 43:51 - 43:55
    When we say that such and such is
    Kafir, or such an such is a Mushrik,
  • 43:55 - 43:58
    then we are giving Dawah
    or conveying a Message.
  • 43:58 - 44:01
    When we say that so and so
    person, Zaid or Umar or a certain group,
  • 44:01 - 44:05
    are kafir or Mushrik, then
    what, in essence, are we doing?
  • 44:05 - 44:08
    We are actually convicting someone,
    and this act of convicting
  • 44:08 - 44:13
    either will be through confession
    or through the conclusive proof of it.
  • 44:13 - 44:15
    And I have said,
    like in case of worldly crimes,
  • 44:15 - 44:19
    for example, theft, or for example,
    adultery for these
  • 44:19 - 44:21
    the conclusive proof is
    established in the Court.
  • 44:21 - 44:24
    Exactly in the same way,
    with regard to Kufr and Shirk,
  • 44:24 - 44:27
    the conclusive proof
    is established by the Prophets of Allah,
  • 44:27 - 44:30
    and when the conclusive proof is
    established by the Prophets of Allah,
  • 44:30 - 44:33
    then the punishment is
    meted out in the world as well
  • 44:33 - 44:36
    and announcement of Kufr
    and Shirk for those groups are done.
  • 44:36 - 44:38
    i.e. declaration is made for them
    being Kafir and Mushrik.
  • 44:38 - 44:42
    And in the case of those where this Decree
    wasn't issued in this world,
  • 44:42 - 44:46
    regarding them, the Decree will be
    issued by the Court of God in Qiyamah.
  • 44:46 - 44:48
    This is a summary of
    my stand on this issue.
  • 44:48 - 44:51
    Therefore, I will read
    to you the full paragraph.
  • 44:51 - 44:55
    Here it is stated, "However, we have
    made it clear in our books
  • 44:55 - 44:57
    supported by justifications,
    that for Takfeer,
  • 44:57 - 44:59
    Itmaam-e Hujjat
    (Conclusive Argument of God's Truth)
  • 44:59 - 45:01
    is necessary, and it
    is known only to God
  • 45:01 - 45:03
    and He only can tell
  • 45:03 - 45:05
    whether there has
    actually taken place or not
  • 45:05 - 45:08
    the Conclusive Proof of God's Truth
    on any individual or group.
  • 45:08 - 45:10
    i.e. in the way the Court passes
    the Decree,
  • 45:10 - 45:12
    or the Judge passes a Judgement,
    in the same way,
  • 45:12 - 45:15
    Kufr and Shirk are
    crimes related to God,
  • 45:15 - 45:17
    their Judgments would
    be passed by God.
  • 45:17 - 45:20
    And now only we
    can call him a Kafir.
  • 45:20 - 45:25
    Hence after the departure
    of the Prophet (pbuh) from the world,
  • 45:25 - 45:29
    this Right is no more available
    to any person or group that
  • 45:29 - 45:32
    he pronounces someone a Kafir".
  • 45:32 - 45:36
    This is a part of my
    stand on this topic.
  • 45:36 - 45:40
    i.e. I have elaborated that
    when I have made the point that
  • 45:40 - 45:44
    presently the millions and billions
    of people that exist in the world,
  • 45:44 - 45:48
    and those who do not subscribe to Islam,
    what would be said about them?
  • 45:48 - 45:50
    I have stated that they
    would be called Non-Muslims.
  • 45:50 - 45:55
    We cannot call them kafir, as they
    have not confessed to their Kufr',
  • 45:55 - 45:58
    and for the reason that though the
    arrangement of Itmaam-e Hujjat,
  • 45:58 - 46:00
    though present in the world,
  • 46:00 - 46:02
    whether it has been
    carried out or not,
  • 46:02 - 46:04
    its Decree has not been
    issued from Heaven.
  • 46:04 - 46:06
    It takes place in the
    presence of the Prophets.
  • 46:06 - 46:09
    for these people this decision
    will be made in the Qiyamah,
  • 46:09 - 46:12
    there the Lord of this world
    will Pronounce His Final Decree
  • 46:12 - 46:15
    as to who was a Kafir
    and who had been a Mushrik?
  • 46:15 - 46:16
    [Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, for Takfeer,
  • 46:16 - 46:18
    the Conclusive Proof of
    God's Truth is necessary,
  • 46:18 - 46:20
    without it, we cannot pronounce
    a person who denies Islam as
  • 46:20 - 46:23
    a Kafir though we can
    call him a Non-Muslim.
  • 46:23 - 46:25
    There are a lot many
    supplementary points to it,
  • 46:25 - 46:27
    further clarifications would be
    required for our understanding.
  • 46:27 - 46:29
    The first introduction
    is crystal clear,
  • 46:29 - 46:32
    that if the people are confessing to it,
    then there is no hesitation
  • 46:32 - 46:33
    to declare them Kafir,
  • 46:33 - 46:35
    the Quran also has discussed
    this backdrop,
  • 46:35 - 46:37
    however, what will be the
    matter with them?
  • 46:37 - 46:40
    We will also learn from you that
    if the Muslims go ahead
  • 46:40 - 46:43
    and shun the basic
    concepts of Deen,
  • 46:43 - 46:45
    then what does the
    Quran say about their Takfeer?
  • 46:45 - 46:48
    What is your viewpoint?
    We will present each one of them to you.
  • 46:48 - 46:51
    The time runs out here.
    We will again be at your service.
  • 46:51 - 46:53
    Thank you very much
    for your time till now.
  • 46:53 - 46:54
    [Ghamidi] Thank you very much.
Title:
Response to 23 Questions - Part 68 - Excommunication From Islam ( Takfeer ) - Javed Ahmed Ghamidi
Description:

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Video Language:
Urdu
Duration:
47:06

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