Response to 23 Questions - Part 68 - Excommunication From Islam ( Takfeer ) - Javed Ahmed Ghamidi

Response to 23 Questions
Series, Part-68,

Excommunication From Islam,
Javed Ahmed Ghamidi

[Muhammad Hassan Ilyas] Bismillahir
Rahmanir Rahim, As Salam Alaikum.

Welcome to another session of
'From the Desk of Ghamidi'.

The chain of discussion
continues on 23 Objections.

Today we are about to start
the 68th episode of that chain,

Whatever doubts or
objections that are presented

on the thoughts
of Ghamidi Sahab,

we are putting those
questions to him in order.

We are here again at your
service with a new topic.

Let us begin.

Today's topic is the issue of 'Takfeer'
(Excommunication from Islam).

It is said that in this scholarly
tradition of the Ummah,

that there is a consensus on this issue,
and this too is a point

on which Ghamidi Sahab
has differed

with the academic tradition
of the whole Ummah,

has presented a new
concept, a new point of view,

what is the established point of view?
I will state a very brief summary of it.

Our Ulema tell us
and write too that

Takfeer is among
the necessities of Deen,

an indispensable requirement.

This Right is for the Muslim
State and the Muslim Ulema as well.

i.e. not just for the people
who deny the Deen

'Takfeer' should be
done of them,

rather, from among the
Muslims too, if some beliefs

or viewpoints are found then their
Takfeer could be done as well.

The instructions given
by Deen cannot be followed

till the time 'Takfeer'
is not done on the people.

There are some punishments
and instructions with regard to Takfeer.

Takfeer hasn't just been done
in the Quran by Allah (swt)

rather, we find
them in Ahadees also.

And with reference to the attitude of
Sahaba as well, this is also well known.

It is a lawful and permissible thing,
which cannot be declared as forbidden.

What is Ghamidi
Sahab's point of view?

We will know all this, let us start.

Thank you very much
Ghamidi Sahab for your time.

I am trying that
in this full series,

your actual reasoning with
its original chain of arguments,

and the fundamental and clear
basis of your argumments,

that we begin with that in this
first stage,

and then one by one the
secondary doubts,

whether those are based
on Quran or Hadees,

or whether they are based on the clear
axioms of reason.

First of all, I would like to know
from you that

this complete issue of 'Takfeer',

till now we have not heard any
detailed discussion on it from you.

Please do explain and take
us along in this scholarly journey,

and tell us that whatever
conclusions you have drawn,

what has been the intellectual journey
behind it,

and what is the epistemology behind it?

What is your take on it?
And the criticism that is done

on it, that I will present
one by one to you.

In your opinion,
what actually is 'Takfeer'?

Where lie the roots of this problem?
And what is your basis of argument?

[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi]
In the Deen of Allah, the acts which

are considered as major deviations ...
you are aware that those are only two.

One is 'Shirk' and
the other is 'Kufr'.

'Shirk' and 'Kufr' are the
common words in the Arabic language.

'Shirk' implies that we are making
someone partner in something.

And 'Kufr', if we see the
from the lexical point of view,

like it means to deny,
it also has various other meanings.

If we look at that most
popular usage then

along with denying its popular
meaning is that of 'Ingratitude'.

[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] In Urdu, when we speak

the word 'Kufran-e Nemat',
it is actually from it.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] In the Quran

which is in the Arabic language,
it has been used in its lexical meanings.

For example, note that the Quran
says that I have shown you both the ways,

"Imma Shaakiram Wa Imma Kafura",

now if someone wishes he can
either be thankful or ungrateful.

So here it is used in one
of its lexical meanings.

The same word 'Kufr' is there, i.e. this
word has its origins in that very root.

Other than this you
see that in the Quran,

just for denial, which we call
denial in the Urdu language,

where a religious aspect does not come
up in that manner, it has been used.

"Wa Mayin Yakfur Bit Taghut".
'One who denies the Taghut',

Obviously, 'Kufr' here gets included
in the requirements of Iman.

i.e. something which, in essence, in
the religious realm, is a big deviation,

is becoming praiseworthy here.
Hence the usage of its lexical meaning.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] There is no end

to such usages of words.
However, the Quran has used this word.

And has converted it into
two terminological interpretations.

Hence the need is felt that
when these have become

terminological expressions, then what
is implied with Shirk terminologically?

And what does 'Kufr'
imply terminologically?

So if you look at it in
the light of the Quran,

then Shirk implies that
we hold someone as Allah.

Or to hold Allah as some other entity.

Or to hold someone as a partner
in His Creation and Commands (Authority).

'Khalq' means the act of creation
that has taken place in this universe.

And 'Amr' means that the system of the
universe

transcending mere physical laws of
based on cause and effect.

Or as it is being run beyond
the world of physical appearance,

This has been stated by the Quran,
"Ala Lahul Khalqu Wal Amar".

So this is the definition
of Shirk in simple words.

'Kufr', when you see it
in the light of the Quran

when it changes into a term of art,
as a technical term,

then it implies that Allah (swt)
has imbibed a Guidance

in the interior of human beings,
which he is born with,

however, after this, for its
expounding and elucidation

and the ascertaining
of its micro details,

so that it is tamed
in an orderly fashion,

Allah (swt) has through
his Prophets revealed its details.

Hence, that revealed
Deen which Allah's Prophets

have brought, that even
if we refuse to accept it even partially,

then the word Kufr applies to it.

[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] So Shirk and Kufr

should first be understood
as terminological expressions.

After this, let us go further,
and see that, when we say,

that a certain thing involves Shirk,

or Shirk has taken place
in such a matter,

or this step, or point of view
or this act has elements of Shirk,

or it can be termed as Shirk,
or when we say that

this thing is totally 'Kufr'.

The fundamental truth
has been denied in it.

This thing is the denial of one of the
compulsory requirements in the Creed.

When we are speaking of such
things then

we actually are commenting
on some angle

or point of view
or on some Aqeedah (Concept).

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] And we do this often and on.

i.e. when Deen is taught,
on that occasion,

it is to be clarified,
that Iman is this,

the requirement of Iman is this,

This is Islam. The basic
tenets of Islam are such.

Similarly, in Shirk,
in so and so matter Shirk would apply,

in such and such a matter,
Kufr would apply.

i.e. in this way, both these terms
occur in our general use.

I was telling that when
we go beyond this,

we come to know,
that in the Quran

these terms have been used in several
ways in their terminological meaning.

At present Shirk is
not our topic of discussion.

We shall limit our
discussion to 'Kufr'.

If you look into the Quran,
then there are two broad usages of it.

One use is that the Quran
uses the word 'Kufr' and 'Kafir',

i.e. obviously, 'Kufr' is a noun,
and one who does 'Kufr' is a 'Kafir'.

Hence using the word 'kufr' and 'Kafir'
the Quran in dozens of places

explains what is 'Kufr'
and who is a 'Kafir'?

[Hassan] Okay, it tells itself.
[Ghamidi] i.e. there

the point of argument
is not that for a particular person

or group a verdict is being given.
A point is being elaborated.

i.e. the Quran will tell us that if a
person denies the existence of Allah,

it is 'Kufr'. The Quran tells us that
when a group brings Syedna Isa A.S.

to a level comparable to Allah (swt)

or raises him to the level of
Allah and starts worshiping him, or

believes in a corporeality (physicalness)
of the being

or the personality of Allah,

then it is in fact
an act of 'Kufr'.

Hence, what is happening here?
Here, through the application,

i.e. as per the general
method of the revealed Books,

it is being explained as
to what actually is 'Kufr'?

In the same way, you may note,
how by using the word 'Kaafirun',

it is telling as to what are the things

which turn an individual a 'Kafir'
in the sight of Allah or before Allah.

When we become a Momin,
we are a Momin in the sight of Allah.

And when we become a 'Kafir',
we are a Kafir in front of Allah.

Hence a very beautiful
term has been used,

"Wa Mallam Yah Kum Bima
Anzallahu Fa Ulaaika Humul Kaafirun".

i.e. those people who do not
make judgements

according to the Laws revealed by
Allah, those are the ones who are Kafir.

So, now what has been done here?
It is told that

any person who is not
making Judgements

according to the laws revealed by Allah,
on him, the term 'Kufr' would apply.

He would be called a 'Kafir' too.
This has been done by the Quran

not in one, or two,
but in dozens of places

it has used the term similarly as
the term Shirk has been used.

i.e. even those forms of
Shirk have been included

which we may interpret as the
attitudes of Shirk as well.

In the same way, all the points
regarding 'Kufr' too have been told.

This is one aspect of it.

This aspect is the foundation of
Dawah in our Deen.

i.e. when we present the
Deen of Allah in the world,

then what role does
an Aalim play in it?

He does the work of telling you
what is Iman, and what is Islam?

You must be aware that
a special discussion took place

between Jibreel-e Ameen
and the Prophet (pbuh),

what were the
questions asked there?

The first question was
'What is Iman?'

The second question is
'What is Islam?'

Obviously, now what
is Islam, or Iman,

if we have to discuss
its opposites,

then we have to tell what Kufr
or Shirk is as compared to Iman?

We have to tell this,

in the same way, we have to state the
things which are in comparison with Islam.

Hence, when are stating all this, we are
essentially giving Dawah, or teaching,

or training people or stating the Deen
or explicating or educating people in Deen

or warning and alerting people.

So I said that this work has taken
place on a large scale in the Quran too.

This has taken place
in dozens of places.

You see such terms
in multiple places,

that it turns the topic
for discussion

on to the belief of some group,

or makes an individual's belief
as the point of discussion.

or makes an attitude
the topic for discussion.

And after this, the same
terms are adopted by it.

i.e. if we include one more
term in it, and what is that?

'Zalalat', i.e. MIsguidance, so sometimes
it says that it is 'Zalal-e Bayiid'.

It is a distant misguidance.
Sometimes it will say that it is 'Kufr'.

Sometimes it will
say it is 'Fisq'.

Or sometimes
it will say it is Shirk.

Let me repeat it, that in fact,
this is the statement of Deen.

It is the Dawah of Deen.

The moment you
will state positive things,

their negative counterparts
would occur immediately.

When you will speak of Islam,

then the opposite of Islam
would also be stated.

When Iman would be stated then the
contrary of Iman will also be mentioned.

[Hassan] The standard would be told.
[Ghamidi] This you and I would also tell.

All the Ulema of the Muslim
community would state it as well.

There isn't any escape from this.
It will happen day in and day out.

The Quran has used these on a grand scale
as I had said,

in multiple places,
in dozens of places;

and it has been explained that

so and so is 'Kufr' and only a Kafir
can adopt such and such things.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] If you refer to the Hadees,

the same terms will be
found in multiple places.

i.e. it will be told that
a Muslim cannot do such a thing.

To do such work
is against Islam.

If such act is done then
it would imply that

an individual has crossed
the realm of religion.

All these interpretations
would be there,

however, when we speak of
a particular person being Kafir,

a certain group is 'Kafir',
so and so person is 'Mushrik',

or a group is Mushrik, now,
this matter

does not remain confined
only to the Dawah of Deen.

This is in reality a verdict for an
individual which we are giving.

Some simple examples
would make it clear.

When you ask what is theft? I will
tell you this and that is theft.

The term theft applies to this thing
or applies to such an act.

When it is asked,
what is fornication?

I tell you in detail that
the application of the term adultery

as per the language,

or if there has been some
definition made in law as well,

then I will tell you that the
term adultery applies

on this act, when it
is done in such a way.

Similarly, I will tell you that
one who commits adultery

is an adulterer, or one
who steals is a thief.

Or one who robs is a robber.

We often and on use
all these terms in teaching,

training, Dawah, speeches
and in Jurisprudence.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] When we say,

Zaid or Bakr are thiefs,
or when we say that

so and so group
are adulterers,

or so and so person is an adulterer,
so what are we doing now?

We are actually
applying our concept

on the action of a person,
of a particular person.

Hence, the Quran as
I said just now,

like it has told in multiple places
as to what is 'Kufr'

or who is called a 'Kafir',

similarly, it has applied this word on
its various addressees, and groups.

It has done so on the People of Scripture
as well as on the 'Mushrikeen'.

It has been done in the form of
a verb as well as an adjective.

When it has been done on
them, if you observe that occasion,

these terms have been
used only for the people

who bear witness to
their 'Kufr' and confess to it.

[Hassan] Okay, i.e it portrays
their outward state.

[Ghamidi] i.e. it is exactly like,
a thief comes to us,

and he confesses
that he is a thief.

Now, you have the full right
to say that he is a thief.

You may proclaim that the thief
himself had come and told me.

The robber had come
and said this to me.

Since he has confessed to it.
Put it in the sphere of the law,

i.e. a person comes
to the Court,

and he comes and
confesses of his crime,

so now the judicial proceedings will
limit to the recording of the confession.

After that,
the sentence may be given.

i.e. after this, you cease
to remain an accused.

Look at the case of adultery,
we have been taught that

we will not accuse
anybody of adultery,

if we come across any such instance
we will try to keep it covered.

If we do otherwise, then
it will become a crime for 'Qazf',

then in such a situation,
we have been bound

to fetch at least 4 witnesses.
However, some people presented

themselves before the Prophet (pbuh),

and confessed to having
committed adultery themselves.

Obviously, now why would
they need the 4 witnesses?

Therefore, now to say about
them that they committed adultery,

neither can anyone be stopped from
doing it,

nor is it a crime.

It is actually a statement of their
own confession or they're owning up.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] So when the Quran has to tell,

that this particular thing is 'Kufr',
or to tell that when such an act is done,

it is an act of 'Kafir', that
is the description of the Deen.

That is done by us all, no
one can have any objection to it.

The complete knowledge tradition
of the Muslims has done this.

Since the Iman
has to be elaborated,

therefore its contrast
has to be explained as well.

However, when we apply it
to a group or an individual,

then for this, two things
become compulsory,

i.e. one is that he or they
own up to it, or accept it,

after this, we do not
have any responsibility,

I have called myself a Muslim,

now there isn't the need
to check or test my Islam.

When I have declared
myself as a Muslim then

you will welcome
me as a Muslim.

The same thing has
been stated in a place in the Quran,

that if a person on some
occasion,

say, when we go into fields, a man
appears and says, "As Salamu Alaikum",

hence this is a way of Islam,
accept it, and do not reply to him

'Lasta Mumina', you are not Momin,
this has been stated in Surah Nisa.

Therefore I expressed my
Iman and you accepted it.

[Hassan] The first situattion.

[Ghamidi] In the same way,
when I express my 'Kufr',

I said that I am not going to
accept your ideas about Prophethood,

or I deny it, or if
it is said in Arabic,

that whatever you
are saying I am its 'Kafir'.

I may say any
of these expressions.

This will be my confession.
This will be a statement about myself.

Hence, when the Quran tells
this to a group,

i.e. addressing them as Kafir, or
reporting their saying as that of a Kafir,

who are all those?
Those are the ones

who confess for
their 'Kufr' themselves.

i.e. they have stepped ahead
to proclaim themselves as Kafir.

Here the Quran has
not given any verdict.

Since, if they deny it,
so now the question arises that

the thief has denied now on what
principle will we call him a thief?

[Hassan] But where have they
owned up that they are Kafir?

[Ghamidi] This is what
I am going to discuss.

[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] i.e. the objective

of all this introduction
was to know first,

what is the terminological interpretation
for the word Kufr in the Quran?

What is the meaning of the term 'Shirk'?
When on different occasions

the Quran pronounces
something as Kufr,

or it is Shirk, then what is it doing?
That actually is a description of the Deen

And when it refers
to the different groups

and says this, whether it is
done on the first day

or on the last day, i.e. whether it
adopts this method on the first day

or the last day of its Dawah,

we will know from the Quran ourselves
that in the Dawah of all the Prophets,

these are actually
the leaders or the arrogant people

or the elders of their community,

they have been their elites who
themselves have taken the initiative

and proclaimed that "we are Kafirs", and
then the Quran gives their reference.

Therefore, those are self-confessed
criminals

whom the Quran addresses as 'Kafir' here.
Now I will present to you one by one

those places in the Quran.

[Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab,
before you present the Quran,

a question that comes to mind is,
it might also occur logically to people

you have clearly differentiated
between the literal meaning

and the formation of the
terminological meaning

and that both have
been used in the Quran.

The question is how will
it be known that on a certain occasion

the Quran is using the
terminological meaning of Kafir

since nowhere is it mentioned
in the Quran that here

the literal meaning is not used, rather
it is the terminological meaning here.

How will we know about what
meaning is to be taken and when?

[Ghamidi] There is no difficulty in it.

We decide likewise
for all words we use.

The terminological meaning as
well is a part of the lexicon.

It is not that they are left out.

For 'Namaz' (Prayer) the word
used in the Quran is Salah.

The word Salah stands for Dua,
supplication and turning towards Allah,

for Allah's (swt) Blessings, it is
used in several meanings.

When it has been used for 'Namaz'
or when it has become a technical term,

that we know from
the context or the backdrop.

So all the scholars have been doing
this, I am not independent in this.

All will tell you where the word
'Kufr' is being used as a technical term,

or where it is being used
in its literal meaning?

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] I gave examples to you just now,

when it was stated,
"Main Yaghfuru Bitaghut",

one who denies Taghut, obviously,
here that 'Kufr' which the Quran

declares as the biggest deviation,
hasn't been used in that meaning.

Here it is used on
the occasion for praise.

Hence, on different occasions,

even while speaking the
Arabic language

we use this word,
If I wish to say that

so and so person does
not even accept that

the Earth revolves
around the Sun,

he does not agree, denies it,
negates it,

then we can use the word 'Kafir' for it
and will do it without hesitation.

Here the topic itself will tell
that it is in the literal sense.

And when we will bring it
into its technical use

then obviously the aspect of
discussion will become clear from it.

These interpretations
will become clear to you by themselves.

Now you see that
I am beginning from Surah 'Aaraaf',

The Aayaat of Surah Aaraaf which I am
going to read to you start from 75.

It is stated,"Qalal Malaiul
Lazee Nastakbiru Min Qaumihi

Lil Lazee Nastuzifu Li Man
Aamana Minhum Wa Talamuna

Anna Salihan Mursalum Mir Rabbi
Qalu Inna Bima Ursila Bihi Muminoon".

The elders of his nation
who had become arrogant said

to their subordinates
who had accepted Iman,

i.e. on one side are the
people who are weak,

they have accepted Iman,
who are in opposition to them?

The elders of the nation.
The leaders, heads, they are asking them,

"Do you think that Saleh
has been sent by his Lord?

[Hassan] Okay.

[Ghamidi] i.e. such a silly thing
is being said.

Do you think that a person
who was born among us

has been chosen by Allah (swt)
and made a Prophet?

They replied, who are they?
The subordinates.

They replied that they accept the
Message with which he has been sent.

[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] So what are the words used.

"Inna Bima Ursila
Bihi Muminoon".

Obviously, the same term has been
used here which we use for Iman.

When I will be asked, I will say that
I am the Momin of the Prophet (pbuh).

I am the Momin
of the Prophets.

So what reply
did they give?

They replied that the Dawah
which Saleh has come down with,

we are its Momin.

Exactly the same interpretation
which we use for Iman,

they adopted the same.
In reply to it,

"Qalal Lazee Nastakbiru Inna
Billazee Amantum Bihi Kaafiroon".

On this, the arrogant said,
i.e. how are they responding,

They replied 'But we deny that which
you have accepted'.

[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] So now when they said this,

what was the term
used by them?

"Inna Billazee Amantum
Bihi Kaafiroon",

i.e. on that which you have brought
Iman, i.e. on which you are Momin,

we are its 'Kafir'.

[Hassan] They said themselves
that they are its kafir.

[Ghamidi] That we
are its 'Kafirs'.

So I am saying when
the Quran has for these nations,

for their leaders, for their heads,
used the word Kafir

when they themselves are
proclaiming themselves as Kafir.

They are self-confessed criminals
in their 'Kufr' (Disbelief).

i.e. they are stepping ahead
and proclaiming that

the Dawah the Prophet (pbuh) has
come with, we are clearly denying it.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] Let us go ahead.

Now, this is Surah Ibrahim,
I will read it from Ayah 9,

"Alam Yaatikum Nabaullazeena
Min Qablikum Qaumi Nuhim

Wa Aadim Wa Samud
Wallazeena Mim Baadihim

Laa Yaalamuhum Ilallah
Jaatuhum Rasuluhum Bil Bayyinaati

Fa Raddu Aidiyahum Fi Afwahihim
Wa Qalu Inna Kafarna Bima Ursiltum

Bihi, Wa Inna Lafi Shakkim
Mimma Tadunana Ilahi Mureeb"

Its translation is,

"Has there not reached you
the news of those before you",

now you see that the Prophets
of Allah who have come,

their reference is given,

'Has there not reached you
the news of those before you",

the people of Noah and Aad and
Samud and those after them?

i.e. the mention of all the
Prophets has been made.

No one knows
them but Allah.

i.e. all the Prophets, about
whom you don't even know

as to who all were they?
I am going to talk about all of them.

This is stated by Allah (swt).

"No one knows
them but Allah.

Their Messengers",
i.e. the prophets of those nations,

the different nations
that existed in the world.

"Their Messengers brought
them clear proofs".

"But they placed their hands to
their mouths to shut them up".

i.e. they refused to listen to them.
And said, "Indeed, we disbelieve in that

with which you have been sent".

What are the words?

"Inna Kafarna Bima Ursiltum Bihi".

The same term
'Kufr' is used.

We have done 'Kufr'
with what you have been sent.

[Hassan] They have themselves
confessed for it.

[Ghamidi] They have
confessed it themselves.

"We disbelieve in that

and indeed,
about that to which you invite us,

we are really in troublesome doubt".

i.e. here is a confession for their
suspicion as well as their 'Kufr'.

Both the points had
been stated nonchalantly.

And therefore they have
themselves confessed

to the point that they are 'Kafir',
we have accepted

'Kufr' in place of Deen,
on one side, there are Momin

who are expressing Iman
on the Prophet,

on the other are we,
who deny the Dawah of the Prophet,

as we say in
Urdu, 'Munkir',

and if we say it in
Arabic, then it is 'Kafir'.

"Inna Bima Ursiltum
Bihi Kaafiroon".

This has been stated.

After this is Surah Haam Mim as-Sajdah.
I shall read the Aayaat, from Ayah 13.

"Fa In Aarazu Fa Qul Anzartukum
Saaiqatim Misla Saaiqati

Aaddin Wa Samud Iz Jaat
Humur Rusulu Mim Baine

Aidihim Wa Mim Khalfihim
Alla Taabudu Ilallahu Qalu

Lau Sha'a Rabbuna La Anzala Malaika
Wa Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"

The translation is,
"But if they turn their faces",

i.e the Prophet is giving Dawah
and they are evading him.

"But if they turn their faces,
then say to them",

'I warn you of a thunderbolt
like the thunderbolt,

which overtook Aad and Samud"

This is being said to the
Prophet of Allah that

he must tell them that they
too are negating a Prophet,

they too are refusing a Prophet's mission,
you too are falsifying a Prophet.

so the consequences that
are there for negating a Prophet,

I am warning you about them.

"When Messengers came
to them from before them

and behind them, i.e. Dawah was given
to them from every side,

so that they may be made to
understand from each aspect,

saying, 'Worship none but Allah'.
This is the summary of their Dawah.

"They said, 'Had our Lord so wished,
He would have sent down Angels'.

How come you have
stood amongst us?

"Therefore", now listen to the reply,

"we disbelieve in the Message
with what you have been sent"

"we are 'Kafirs' of the Message
with which you have been sent".

What are the original words?

"Fa Inna Bima Ursiltum
Bihi Kaafiroon"

so note here too, they are
themselves confessing

to the fact that they are
'Kafirs' of that Message,

they are not ready
to accept that Message.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] And at the end of this chain,

I am reading a part of
Surah 'Zukhruf',

here the full point has
been stated in great detail.

The Aayaat start from Ayah 20
onwards. It is stated,

"Wa Qaalu Lau Sha ar Rahmanu
Ma Abadnahum Maalahum

Bi Zaalika Min Ilm In Hum
Billah Yakhrusun

Am Atainahum Kitaabun Mim
Qablihim Fa Hum Bihi

Mustamsikoon Bal Qalu
Inna Wajadna Aabaa'ana

Ala Ummatin Wa Inna Ala
Asaarihim Muhtadoon

Wa Kazaalika Maa Arsalna
Min Qablika Fi Kariatim

Min Nazeer Illa Qala
Mutarafuha Inna Wajadna

Aaba'ana Ala Ummatim Wa
Inna Ala Asaarihim Muqtadoon

Qala Wa Lau Jetukum Bi
Ahda Minwajadtum Alaihi

aba'a kum Qaalu Inna
Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon

Fan Taqamna Minhum Fanzur
Kaifa Kana Aaqibatul Mukazzibin"

Now look at the translation,

And they said, "If the Most
Merciful had wished"

"And they said,
"If Most Merciful God had wished,

we would not have
worshipped them".

i.e. the Prophets came,
they are giving Dawah for Tawheed,

they are stopping them from Shirk,
and in reply they are saying,

"If Most Merciful God had wished,

we would not have
worshipped them".

They have no knowledge of this.
They are merely guessing.

"Or have we given
them a book before

to which they are adhering to in support
of their foolishness".

Nay! They say,

"We found our fathers
following a superior way

and religion, and we guide
ourselves by their footsteps".

And similarly, O Prophet, We sent not
a warner before you to any town

This is purely a general style ...

this has happened in all cases,
this has taken place with all peoples.

This has happened with
the nations of every Prophet.

"We sent not a warner
before you to any town"

but the rich ones among them
the 'Aghnia', the elders, its elite,

"but those living in luxury
among them, said this only

"We found our fathers
following a superior way

and religion, and we guide
ourselves by their footsteps".

Their warner, i.e. the
Prophet said,

"Even if I bring you
better guidance than it,

i.e. still will you follow that way?
"which you found your fathers following?"

They replied, "Verily,
We are disbelievers (Kafir)

in that with which
you have been sent."

[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] "Qaalu Inna Bima

Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"

With what you have been sent

we do not accept it, we deny it,
we are its 'Kafir'.

When the matter has
reached to such a pass,

so We took retribution on them for their
rebellion.

Then see what was the end of those
who denied?

Hence you see, a few places of
the Quran have been presented to you.

The point is that the Quran
adopts the technical terminology

of the word 'Kufr' on any occasion
when it tells that what is Kufr?

When it tells as to
who are the Kuffaar (Kafirs).

Exactly similar to when it tells what is
Iman and who is a Momin or a Muslim?

This is the statement of Dawah.
It is the description of the Deen.

Or it will use it when it points
to a specific group,

and will give its reference that this
was said by the Deniers (Kafirs).

This was said by the 'Munkirs'.
So who are these people?

These are the people who have
themselves confessed of their 'Kufr'.

They voice their 'Kufr' by themselves.

Hence in the Quran these are
two interpretations,

or the two facets
of the word,

which has been adopted in
different places by Allah (swt).

These are the usages in Quran.

In the matter of the usages of the Quran,
there cannot be two opinions.

i.e. you, the Ulema
of Muslim Ummah, or I,

who can have a second
opinion in this matter?

Obviously, when we have to state Deen
to the people, what will we tell them?

We will only tell them as
to what is Islam or what is Iman?

[Hassan] The standards.
[Ghamidi] And when we would explain,

that be steadfast on this Iman,
or on this Islam,

then against it sometimes
Shirk would come into the discussion

or sometimes Kufr'
would be discussed.

And we shall only tell as to
what is Kufr or who is a Kafir?

These things have been
mentioned in Ahadees,

in the discussions of Ulema as well.
You and I would also state them.

I am repeatedly drawing
attention that

there isn't any scope
of disagreement in this.

[Hassan] Absolutely no scope.
[Ghamidi] After this comes,

the pronouncement about
a particular person or group

that they are Kafir.

The topic 'Takfeer' which has been
given is now being discussed.

Now, what lies here. It is not
that I am stating what is Kufr?

Or I am defining a kafir.
Or I am defining that this is theft.

Or I am stating what
constitutes a thief?

Or I am stating that
this is adultery.

Or that I am stating this
is what an adulterer is.

No, things have
moved ahead of this.

[Hassan] You are an adulterer.
[Ghamidi] I'm saying that 'You are Kafir'.

I say that you are an adulterer.
I am saying that you are a thief.

i.e. my addressee can
be an individual

or my addressee can be a
group or a collective as well.

When I proclaim this,
things do not remain as simple.

I have elaborated its one situation that
when we will read the Quran thoughtfully

then we will learn that
the nations of the Prophets

who have disbelieved in the Prophets,
then their elite, their arrogant,

their elders, their heads,
they stepped ahead themselves

and listened to the
Dawah of the Prophets,

and after that said,
"Inna Bima Ursiltum Bihi Kaafiroon"

[Hassan] They had
confessed themselves.

[Ghamidi] We are Kafirs (of it).

Hence the question doesn't arise
of pronouncing someone as Kafir.

Here an admission has
taken place,

i.e. when I said that I am a Momin,
so now I am a confessional Momin,

and when I said that I am a Kafir, so
now I am a confessional Kafir.

In the same way, when I had
stepped ahead to confess that

I am a thief, or I am an adulterer,
or I said that I am a robber,

or I have committed robbery.
So when I am confessing my crime myself,

after this, the question never arises
as to whether

he is to be called a Kafir or not.
i.e. this Takfeer hasn't been done by me,

he himself has confessed of his Kufr.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] What does Takfeer mean?

Takfeer means that
I proclaim someone to be a 'Kafir'.

i.e. I have to declare of someone else,
that he/she is Kafir.

This is termed as 'Takfeer'.

We should first make this
word very clear.

The point with which I have
differed starts from here.

[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] i.e. whatever I have said

prior to it, there isn't any scope
of having any difference of opinion.

'Kufr' will also be stated and
who is a Kafir, will also be explained.

In the same way,
this too will be stated that

the arrogant from so and so tribe
have declared themselves as 'Kafir'.

The Prophets also referred
to them in the same way.

When the elite
among them said,

the Prophets too referred
to them in the same way.

This will be stated by you
as well as by me,

there does not arise any question
of debate on this point.

Where does the point start from?
The point starts from those people,

the specific group, or collective,
or a particular person,

they are neither
accepting nor denying.

They did not own up that
they are Kafir.

The Dawah did not
reach any of them.

None was even told of it.

At present, if we look
around in the world,

we may find 10 or 20 thousand
people who are stepping ahead

and openly declaring that we
are 'Munkir' (Denier) of Islam.

We are 'Kafir'. These are not
included in this.

They are confessing to their 'Kufr'.

[Hassan] They are in the first category.
[Ghamidi] They would be active

on the social media, would
be writing in newspapers,

or would be
writing some book,

so the intellectuals
and the like are coming forward

and confessing to their
atheism and their 'Kufr'.

What discussion will we do with them?

Or what I will say about them?

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] Whatever they are saying,

I will give a reference of them.

i.e. if I have to refer to
them sometime at all,

then I will say that so and so
atheist has this opinion

and so and so sceptic
hold this opinion.

And so and so
Kafir has this opinion.

[Hassan] He himself is telling it.

[Ghamidi] for the reason they are
telling this about themselves.

They are introducing
themselves in this capacity.

They are comimg forward with
their Dawah, i.e. the Dawah for 'Kufr'.

The way we have come forward
with the Dawah for Islam,

they have come forward
with the Dawah for Kufr.

However, presently, there
are billions of people,

who have neither taken a
stand on denial or acceptance.

[Hassan] For example?
[Ghamidi] Presently, our Hindus,

Christians, Buddhists,
all of these people

who surround us that these
are in millions and billions,

i.e. the Muslim population
of the world is 1.5 billion at the most.

Rest of the people who surround us,

we see in our own country,
the Christians, the Hindus,

they are following
their ancestral Deen,

who has presented
the Dawah to them?

When have they denied?
Neither acceptance nor denial.

They are living their lives.

These are the people
about whom we are discussing

as to what we have
to say about them?

Regarding them, I have stated
the point that

we cannot call them with any name
other than Non-Muslims.

[Hassan] Okay.
[Ghamidi] These are the people

who are under discussion.

Those people are not under discussion
who have confessed of their 'Kufr'.

Those people are not under discussion
who are calling people to Kufr.

i.e. they are proclaiming that
they are Kafir,

they are proclaiming
that they are Mushrik.

Like, before Yathrib (Madinah)
when the Prophet (pbuh) was in Makkah,

then the polytheists of Arabia
used to say that

they have adopted
Shirk as their Deen.

That is not under discussion.
The subject of discussion is

these people who are spread
across the world,

they are residing
in our countries,

look at Egypt, Iraq, Syria,
Jordan or the sub-continent,

there a tens of Millions
of Hindus, and followers of Buddhism,

tens of millions of Christians,
are there, these are the people

about whom the question arises
that can we call them Kafir?

This is the question to
which I have replied that

there isn't even the question
of rejecting the Dawah

of the Prophets among them.
They are like us,

as we are born in our homes,
the Deen which is taught by our parents

we follow it accordingly,
the same is their situation.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] i.e. whatever they have learned

from their parents, whatever
they have received from their society,

accordingly, they are
spending their lives.

And that what would be their fate is not
in the purview of our discussion now.

What would we call them?
So have they stepped forward

to declare Iman? They haven't done so.
So we can't call them a Momin.

We can't declare them a Muslim.
Have they stepped ahead

and negated our
Deen and the Prophets?

We can't call them Kafir too.

[Hassan] Practically it is so
if they haven't accepted it.

[Ghamidi] Practically, everyone
stands at the same level.

We too are practically
negating many things.

Hence, I have explained to you that
the moment a person comes forward

and proclaims that
I have indulged in Kufr,

at that time he himself
confesses to his crime.

He himself is confessing
to his sin or of his creed.

Till now he hasn't even accepted
any of the two.

When we will approach them
with the Dawah,

i.e. when did the Prophets
raise this question?

When they had presented their Dawah?
When they took the message across.

When they presented
their point to them.

When they presented it, their
followers said that

we have accepted Iman
on them, we are Momin,

in reply the arrogant among them said
that we are 'Kafir'

deniers of what they have brought.

[Hassan] The point is absolutely clear.

[Ghamidi] So there the line of demarcation
is drawn in the most certain terms.

Here the countless people
are an audience for our Dawah.

We shall communicate Deen to them.

We shall take the Book
of Allah across to them.

We shall present them
with the Message of Allah.

To them, we will tell
what is Kufr?

To them, we will convey
as to what is Iman?

We will tell them
who is called a 'kafir'?

We will teach
them who is a Momin?

Here our relationship with
them is that of Dawah.

We cannot adopt the
way of Takfeer regarding them.

Firstly, now I am telling you,
what is the point that I am making?

What is the extent of the
point which I have stated?

So I am now going to read
to you my own words.

This is from my book 'Maqamaat',
here we have an article

with the title
'Muslim and Non-Muslim'.

I have written here,
"Other than Islam,

the rest of the followers of all
religions are called Non-Muslims.

i.e. we have a particular strength of
number in this world, so all of us,

irrespective of being good or bad
or whatever, what are we called?

Muslims. Who are the ones
who are other than us?

Those who are not Muslims.
Other than the followers of Islam,

the followers of all religions
are called Non-Muslims.

The same term is for those too who
do not subscribe to any religion.

We call them the same
i.e. they are Non-Muslims.

It is not a word of insult,
rather it is an expression

of the fact that they
do not believe in Islam.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] i.e. what are they saying?

You had said, what does a Hindu say?
i.e. through his conduct.

He says that I do
not believe in Islam.

He is saying just this much.

[Hassan] Since he is Non-Muslim
and this is implied with it.

[Ghamidi] He being a Non-Muslim,
it is his statement.

He hasn't introduced
himself as a Kafir.

Since the process of
that relationship of Dawah

is yet to be established with him, post
which the issue of Kufr or Iman arises.

He is just saying that I
do not subscribe to Islam.

Generally, such people
are also called 'Kafir'.

i.e. people often call these
Non-Muslims as Kafir.

However, I have elaborated with
justifications that

for Takfeer, the Conclusive communication
of God's proof is required.

Now, the point is that the Completion
of Arguments of God's truth is a must.

What does it imply?
It implies that when we say,

that so and so person
is a thief,

and that person comes and
owns up that he is in fact a thief,

then no witnesses are required.
There is no need for a lawsuit.

If the matter is put up
before a judge then

at the most, as I had said,
he will record that confession,

like when people came
to the Prophet (pbuh)

and confessed to adultery and stated
that they have committed this crime,

so the Prophet (pbuh) asked some
questions an emphatic tone,

so that it gets completely
clear as to

what are they speaking and
what is their confession?

Hence, the punishment was imposed
based on the confession.

Here there isn't any
need for a debate.

I am telling about a person
that he is an adulterer,

I am saying that he is a thief, now
a great responsibility has come upon me,

i.e. what is it now? Now
I have to establish my case.

Hence this act of establishing
the case,

is called Itmam-e Hujjat
(Conclusive proof of God's Truth).

i.e. when a matter is carried out
in a Court, then what does a Court do?

The Court asks the person
whether he confesses to this crime?

If he confesses to that crime.
then there is no issue.

However, if he says that no,
this is an accusation against me,

this is a blame put on me,
I haven't committed any theft,

I haven't committed adultery.
So now it is a must that

the conclusive proof is
established on him

and how does that proof
gets established?

It gets established through witnesses.
After that, we accumulate

circumstantial evidence,
post that we bring in various proofs

and after this, the Judge passes
the judgement that he is a thief.

After this, now we have the
right to call him a thief.

After this we get the
right to call him a thief.

Before this, if we say anything
about a person then either

a libel suit will be filed against us,

and if we accuse someone of adultery,
then 80 lashes will be given on our backs.

It is not a simple issue.
If the confession is there

then there isn't any question.
We haven't committed any crime.

If the confession does not exist,
then there are lawsuits,

first there would be established
conclusive proof for it,

i.e. through arguments,
through evidence and witnesses,

his crime would be proven on him,
when it is proven,

the Court will give
its verdict on it.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] With regard to Kufr and Shirk,

which is the Court?
The Court of the Lord of the skies.

This lawsuit does not
relate to any worldly Court.

This lawsuit goes into
the Court of God,

so when the Prophets
or the Messengers of Allah

are on Earth, then Allah
gives His Verdict.

And when the Verdict is given,
so the Quran has told us

the punishments for Kufr and Shirk.

Azaab-e Aleem (Extreme Torture)
and Azaab-e Azeem (Great Torment).

These are not ordinary crimes.
When we say that so and so person

has committed 'Kufr'
like when we say that

so and so person is a thief,
then its punishment is declared,

that hand is chopped off,
in the same way,

when we say he is Mushrik,
when we say he is a kafir,

whether it is an individual or a group,

then what is the punishment
for it from Allah (swt)?

Azaab-e Azeem or Azaab-e Aleem.
Torturous Torment, great agony.

Its punishment is the hellfire.
Hence the court of Allah (swt) decides.

It decides in the world,
when the Prophets are sent.

It will make the judgement
in Aakhirah

when the Court is
established on that Day.

Hence for both these decrees, the final
proof of God's truth is required.

'Itmaam-e Hujjat' implies
here the same exercise

that was carried out to prove
the accused as the thief.

The same exercise would be done
here too,

and with what objective
would it be done?

To prove an accused
Kafir as a Kafir,

as he has not
confessed to his Kufr.

[Hassan] Right.
[Ghamidi] So when we say about someone

that he is a Mushrik,
or he is a Kafir,

I repeat again if we say that
it is Kufr or we say that it is Shirk,

then we are describing the Deen.

We are putting an academic
suit before the people.

When we say that such and such is
Kafir, or such an such is a Mushrik,

then we are giving Dawah
or conveying a Message.

When we say that so and so
person, Zaid or Umar or a certain group,

are kafir or Mushrik, then
what, in essence, are we doing?

We are actually convicting someone,
and this act of convicting

either will be through confession
or through the conclusive proof of it.

And I have said,
like in case of worldly crimes,

for example, theft, or for example,
adultery for these

the conclusive proof is
established in the Court.

Exactly in the same way,
with regard to Kufr and Shirk,

the conclusive proof
is established by the Prophets of Allah,

and when the conclusive proof is
established by the Prophets of Allah,

then the punishment is
meted out in the world as well

and announcement of Kufr
and Shirk for those groups are done.

i.e. declaration is made for them
being Kafir and Mushrik.

And in the case of those where this Decree
wasn't issued in this world,

regarding them, the Decree will be
issued by the Court of God in Qiyamah.

This is a summary of
my stand on this issue.

Therefore, I will read
to you the full paragraph.

Here it is stated, "However, we have
made it clear in our books

supported by justifications,
that for Takfeer,

Itmaam-e Hujjat
(Conclusive Argument of God's Truth)

is necessary, and it
is known only to God

and He only can tell

whether there has
actually taken place or not

the Conclusive Proof of God's Truth
on any individual or group.

i.e. in the way the Court passes
the Decree,

or the Judge passes a Judgement,
in the same way,

Kufr and Shirk are
crimes related to God,

their Judgments would
be passed by God.

And now only we
can call him a Kafir.

Hence after the departure
of the Prophet (pbuh) from the world,

this Right is no more available
to any person or group that

he pronounces someone a Kafir".

This is a part of my
stand on this topic.

i.e. I have elaborated that
when I have made the point that

presently the millions and billions
of people that exist in the world,

and those who do not subscribe to Islam,
what would be said about them?

I have stated that they
would be called Non-Muslims.

We cannot call them kafir, as they
have not confessed to their Kufr',

and for the reason that though the
arrangement of Itmaam-e Hujjat,

though present in the world,

whether it has been
carried out or not,

its Decree has not been
issued from Heaven.

It takes place in the
presence of the Prophets.

for these people this decision
will be made in the Qiyamah,

there the Lord of this world
will Pronounce His Final Decree

as to who was a Kafir
and who had been a Mushrik?

[Hassan] Ghamidi Sahab, for Takfeer,

the Conclusive Proof of
God's Truth is necessary,

without it, we cannot pronounce
a person who denies Islam as

a Kafir though we can
call him a Non-Muslim.

There are a lot many
supplementary points to it,

further clarifications would be
required for our understanding.

The first introduction
is crystal clear,

that if the people are confessing to it,
then there is no hesitation

to declare them Kafir,

the Quran also has discussed
this backdrop,

however, what will be the
matter with them?

We will also learn from you that
if the Muslims go ahead

and shun the basic
concepts of Deen,

then what does the
Quran say about their Takfeer?

What is your viewpoint?
We will present each one of them to you.

The time runs out here.
We will again be at your service.

Thank you very much
for your time till now.

[Ghamidi] Thank you very much.