Hazrat Ali (ra) aur Ameer Muawiya (ra) Ka Ikhtilaf - Part 15 - Javed Ahmad Ghamidi
-
0:05 - 0:07[Hasan Ilyas] In the name of Allah, the
most Gracious, the most Merciful! -
0:07 - 0:10Assalamu Alaikum. We are coming to you
directly from Ghamidi Center, Dallas -
0:10 - 0:13with this weekly question-answer session
with Ghamidi Sahab. -
0:13 - 0:15Let us begin…
Ghamidi Sahab, thanks a lot for your time. -
0:15 - 0:20The chain of our conversation continues
about your viewpoint of the conflict -
0:20 - 0:22between Syedna Ali (ra) and
Ameer Muawiya (ra). -
0:22 - 0:25Today, this is the fifteenth episode
of the series. -
0:25 - 0:29I am presenting to you, one by one, the
questions regarding certain doubts and -
0:29 - 0:31objections that people have raised
about your discourse. -
0:31 - 0:35In our last conversation, we comprehended
certain important points. -
0:35 - 0:38And I will start by linking up our today’s
conversation to the last conversation. -
0:38 - 0:43While being a governor of a province,
Syedna Muawiya (ra) demanded retaliation -
0:43 - 0:46from Syedna Ali (ra) against the murderers
of Uthman (ra). -
0:46 - 0:50Does this not imply that he considered Ali
(ra) to be the ruler of the Muslim nation -
0:50 - 0:54and that he considered his government to
be an established political fact since -
0:54 - 0:56he is making the demand of Ali (ra)
to punish the murderers? -
0:56 - 0:59Had Muawiya (ra) not made the demand,
it could have been said that Ali’s (ra) -
0:59 - 1:01government had not been fully established
and that -
1:01 - 1:03it was a chaotic situation all around.
-
1:03 - 1:06However, the moment Muawiya (ra) put
forth his demand it becomes obvious that -
1:06 - 1:10he accepts Ali (ra) as the ruler and is
demanding of him to ‘retaliate’ (qisas) -
1:10 - 1:13against Uthman’s (ra) murderers which only
the ruler of the Muslims could do? -
1:14 - 1:18[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Muawiya (ra) is
making this demand on the basis -
1:18 - 1:21of Ali’s (ra) claim that his government
has become established. -
1:22 - 1:27And if it is claimed that the government
has been (firmly) established, -
1:27 - 1:31one of its self-evident proofs would be to
mete out the -
1:31 - 1:32just punishment to the criminals.’
-
1:32 - 1:36‘Otherwise, we have no personal animosity
against you.’ -
1:37 - 1:39‘We shall accept your government.’
-
1:41 - 1:46It is the approach that if a government is
established and -
1:46 - 1:50you are hesitant about its establishment
or you have some objections regarding it. -
1:50 - 1:54In that case, how are you manifesting
your objection? -
1:54 - 1:57In other words, do you object to the
person of the ruler? -
1:57 - 2:00If you object to the person of the ruler.
-
2:00 - 2:04For instance, a number of people object to
many of later rulers as -
2:04 - 2:10individual persons as well: it is believed
that a certain person was not fit to rule -
2:10 - 2:17because of his personality, or character,
or his lack of political acumen, etc. -
2:18 - 2:21In those cases, it is the opposition to
the person of the ruler. -
2:21 - 2:26I have stated this earlier as well that
whether it was Muawiya (ra), or -
2:26 - 2:31Syeda Aisha (ra) or Syedna Talha (ra), or
Zubair (ra), none of them argued that -
2:31 - 2:35Syedna Ali (ra) was not fit to be
the Caliph of the Muslims. -
2:35 - 2:38Instead, they argue that you are of course
eligible to be the caliph and -
2:38 - 2:40we have no objections to your person.
-
2:40 - 2:45However, from among necessary conditions
for the establishment of a government, -
2:45 - 2:49we are demanding of you that you
fulfill one important condition. -
2:49 - 2:51Why are governments established at all?
-
2:51 - 2:56They are established to curb the abuse
of power. -
2:56 - 3:00It is the fundamental objective of the
establishment of government to be -
3:00 - 3:03in a position to punish the criminals.
-
3:03 - 3:07However, if a government is not in a
position to punish the criminals -
3:07 - 3:11although, you can claim that it is in the
process of establishing itself, -
3:11 - 3:15but you cannot say it has been fully
established as a fiat accompli. -
3:15 - 3:18Thus, they put forward their case with
the same reasoning. -
3:18 - 3:22Even today, if a situation of emergency
erupts and someone takes over -
3:22 - 3:27the government, then we too shall demand
of them to prove their fitness -
3:27 - 3:34for legislation, application of the law,
and for the re-establishment of order. -
3:35 - 3:39And only then would the government would
be accepted – if only in de facto terms. -
3:39 - 3:41So, they are basically making this case.
-
3:41 - 3:43How does it imply that they accepted
-
3:43 - 3:45Ali’s (ra) government as an established
political fact? -
3:45 - 3:48If indeed Muawiya (ra) had accepted
Ali’s (ra) government, -
3:48 - 3:55then his first task would have
been to give up his position -
3:55 - 4:00as the governor of Syria, as Ali (ra)
had instructed him to do. -
4:00 - 4:03He did no such thing!
-
4:03 - 4:07Instead, positioning himself as the
governor of Levant, he asked Ali (ra), -
4:07 - 4:11who had assumed the caliphal office, the
proof that -
4:11 - 4:13his power was actually established.
[Ilyas] Alright… -
4:14 - 4:18Let us move the conversation forward,
Ghamidi Sahab. -
4:18 - 4:22It is clear that Muawiya’s (ra) demand did
not begin after -
4:22 - 4:23accepting Ali’s (ra) government;
-
4:23 - 4:28In fact, the demand is the condition for
the acceptance of government: -
4:28 - 4:30'Only after the fulfillment of this
condition would -
4:30 - 4:32the other matters be settled.’
-
4:32 - 4:35However, the matter was not settled and
the dispute reached into the battlefield. -
4:35 - 4:39As the dispute reached the battlefield,
and this is also a generally accepted -
4:39 - 4:43historical fact, that those demanding
retaliation against the -
4:43 - 4:47murderers of Uthman (ra) and the removal
from office of people who had surrounded -
4:47 - 4:49Syedna Ali, (ra),
they lost in the battlefield. -
4:49 - 4:54You had described the principle in detail
that whenever something like this happens. -
4:54 - 4:58And it proves that Ali’s (ra) government
had become established. -
4:59 - 5:03In other words, it existed as a de facto
reality and that is how he won the war. -
5:04 - 5:08After all this, the matter should have
moved toward settlement… -
5:08 - 5:11The results of the battlefield went in
favor of Ali (ra). -
5:11 - 5:15Thus, once the battlefield decided the
matter in Ali’s (ra) favor, -
5:15 - 5:19what excuse was left for Muawiya (ra) to
still not accept the government -
5:19 - 5:21as a de facto reality?
[Ghamidi] What was the verdict exactly? -
5:21 - 5:26The verdict was this: Ali (ra) himself
accepted to appoint arbiters to decide -
5:26 - 5:30the legality or illegality of his
government. -
5:31 - 5:39It was after the Battle of Siffin that
the arbiters were appointed. -
5:39 - 5:41What exactly do you accept when you
accept arbitration? -
5:41 - 5:43Have you ever reflected on this point?
-
5:43 - 5:46It means that you have accepted that
you no longer insist on taking -
5:46 - 5:48your government as a de facto reality.
-
5:48 - 5:51Instead, the verdict of whether or not to
accept the government -
5:51 - 5:54shall be entrusted to certain arbiters.
-
5:54 - 5:56Therefore, two people were nominated to
be the arbiters in the dispute. -
5:56 - 5:58The clauses of arbitration were drawn up.
-
5:58 - 6:03Abu Musa Ashari (ra) was nominated from
Ali’s (ra) side -
6:03 - 6:07and Amr bin al ‘As (ra)
was nominated from Muawiya’s (ra) side. -
6:08 - 6:12Both were allowed a fixed time period
which spanned across many months. -
6:12 - 6:16And, then, it was specified that they
would proclaim their verdict in front -
6:16 - 6:20of four hundred people and in that
assembly they would give their verdict -
6:20 - 6:27about the rights and wrongs of the dispute
and how it should be resolved! -
6:27 - 6:30Therefore, the moment you accept
arbitration, -
6:30 - 6:37the legitimacy of your government becomes
debatable as a result of your admission. -
6:38 - 6:41If, however, a different scenario would
have emerged: -
6:41 - 6:44Muawiya’s (ra) side lost on the
battlefield, his men ran away, -
6:44 - 6:48Ali’s (ra) forces captured his territory,
and he was able to establish -
6:48 - 6:50the writ of his government throughout
the empire. -
6:50 - 6:53In that case, the matter would have
been decisively settled. -
6:53 - 6:55So, what was the upshot of the
Battle of Siffin? -
6:55 - 6:58And it should also be kept in mind, in the
Battle of Siffin, -
6:58 - 7:01the opposing side was not fighting to
overtake Ali’s (ra) government. -
7:01 - 7:05Instead, it was Ali’s (ra) position – and
he was absolutely sincere in his position -
7:05 - 7:10that his government had been legitimately
established and he wanted to enforce -
7:10 - 7:12the writ of his government.
-
7:12 - 7:18For this reason, he changed the governors
of the provinces too and when Muawiya (ra) -
7:18 - 7:22refused to comply with his order, it was
Ali (ra) -
7:22 - 7:26who initiated the hostilities in Siffin.
-
7:26 - 7:31And because of this attack, at one point,
the opposing side proposed this: -
7:31 - 7:37people, including the Companions, are
being martyred in large numbers -
7:37 - 7:43and it would only perpetuate the civil
war; instead, is it not better to settle -
7:43 - 7:47this dispute by making the Quran the
final arbiter? -
7:47 - 7:50When this proposal was put forward from
the opposing side, -
7:50 - 7:52Ali (ra), himself, accepted it.
-
7:53 - 7:58People neglect this point that when a
ruler accepts arbitration upon whether -
7:58 - 8:04or not his government is a de facto
political fact and whether the steps -
8:04 - 8:08he took were legitimate or not, and now
arbitrators will make a ruling on it, -
8:08 - 8:11you can imagine the situation.
-
8:11 - 8:15So, the matter is not as simple
as it seems. -
8:15 - 8:17[Ilyas] Alright.
Let us move ahead, Ghamidi Sahab! -
8:17 - 8:21A new point of view has emerged in
the last few days… -
8:21 - 8:25It has been stated that the way you
portray the matter that it pertains -
8:25 - 8:29to real historical events, wherein the
partisans had their principled positions -
8:29 - 8:32and both were sincerely taking certain
practical measures based -
8:32 - 8:33on those principled positions.
-
8:33 - 8:37Instead, why can’t we say that the large
group of the companions -
8:37 - 8:42who supported Muawiya, along with the
suggestions he might have gotten -
8:42 - 8:47from the earlier caliphs, combined to
deliberately keep the Hashemites, -
8:47 - 8:53i.e., the family of the Prophet (pbuh),
away from power? -
8:54 - 8:58It is because once they had gained
political power, then, -
8:58 - 9:02because of their status in the eyes of
the people due to their descent -
9:02 - 9:05from the Prophet (pbuh), it would have
been difficult to wrest it back. -
9:05 - 9:09Therefore, these factors were at work
in Muawiya’s (ra) actions and -
9:09 - 9:12in the struggle to seek tribal supremacy
among the Umayyads. -
9:12 - 9:14How do you see this line of thinking?
-
9:14 - 9:17[Ghamidi] First, you have to tell me
when did this “conspiracy” -
9:17 - 9:19to keep the Hashemites out of power begin?
-
9:19 - 9:22Did it begin with Abu Bakr’s (ra)
election as the Caliph? -
9:22 - 9:28Abu Bakr (ra) was the most exalted
companion in the whole umma. -
9:29 - 9:33No person could have the temerity to
claim that in Abu Bakr (ra) -
9:33 - 9:38such a man was elected as the Caliph
who was not eligible for it. -
9:38 - 9:42Not only did all the companions assent
to the election, -
9:42 - 9:46a person like Omar (ra) stated that he
proposed the same of such a personality -
9:46 - 9:50that tukta’ul aana qi’lay (people’s necks
would bow in front of him). -
9:50 - 9:54In fact, people, subsequently, accepted
him in the same station. -
9:54 - 9:58And the way Abu Bakr (ra) ruled also
proved his illustriousness. -
9:58 - 10:02Therefore, nobody can be bold enough to
claim any of this about Abu Bakr (ra). -
10:02 - 10:06I have already described the election of
Omar (ra) that how Abu Bakr (ra) -
10:06 - 10:10invited the entire leadership of the
Quraish, put forth his proposal to them, -
10:10 - 10:14listened to the opinions and suggestions
of every single one of them, -
10:14 - 10:16and replied to the objections that were
raised. -
10:16 - 10:18Only then the final decision was made.
-
10:18 - 10:21In this case as well, no such thing was
under discussion from which -
10:21 - 10:24one could conclude a deliberate attempt
to exclude the Hashemites from power. -
10:24 - 10:27At the most, you could say, at the time
of Uthman’s (ra) election, -
10:27 - 10:30when Abdul Rahman bin Awf (ra) was
given the authority to choose, -
10:30 - 10:33he might have kept these things in view.
-
10:33 - 10:37However, it does not make any difference
because whenever you form an opinion -
10:37 - 10:39about anyone at all, you take dozens
of factors into consideration. -
10:39 - 10:43So, all these hypotheses can be discussed
only with reference to the election -
10:43 - 10:44of the first three caliphs.
-
10:44 - 10:46And they would be assessed in accordance
with the evidence pertaining -
10:46 - 10:47to the three occasions.
-
10:47 - 10:51In Muawiya’s (ra) case, what right do
we have to speculate about -
10:51 - 10:55a different opinion than his stated
position that is in front of us? -
10:55 - 11:00Did he ever claim that they have decided
to keep the Hashemites out of power? -
11:01 - 11:05A power struggle was going on.
There is no doubt about it. -
11:05 - 11:09In this backdrop, the establishment of
Ali’s (ra) government was announced. -
11:10 - 11:13And a lot of people accepted the new
government. -
11:13 - 11:17On the back of a large force, Ali (ra)
managed to consolidate his power -
11:17 - 11:21over a large territorial span.
Muawiya (ra) put forward a demand. -
11:21 - 11:25And the Mother of the Believers, Syeda
Aisha (ra) too pressed the same demand. -
11:25 - 11:27She is not an ordinary woman.
-
11:27 - 11:31It was an extraordinary decision on part
of Aisha (ra), -
11:31 - 11:35keeping in view her juristic mind, her
judgments, -
11:35 - 11:37and her insight in politics and strategy.
-
11:37 - 11:44And two of the most prominent people
from the council that elected Ali (ra), -
11:44 - 11:48i.e., Talha (ra) and Zubair (ra), also
joined her in her opposition to Ali (ra). -
11:49 - 11:53So, did all these people come together to
conspire -
11:53 - 11:55to keep the Hashemites out of power?
-
11:55 - 11:59However, whenever it comes to the
point of election and -
11:59 - 12:03when we vote in somebody’s favor, we
take dozens of factors into consideration. -
12:03 - 12:07Let me give you a fresh example of this
phenomenon. -
12:07 - 12:09Say, elections are going on in our
country. -
12:09 - 12:12A number of political parties operate
in the country. -
12:12 - 12:16In this backdrop, there is a person who
maintains, -
12:16 - 12:21irrespective of his other preferences,
he won’t vote for certain parties because, -
12:21 - 12:24according to him, they have become
hereditary parties. -
12:24 - 12:26Thus, it can be one important factor
determining one’s political preference. -
12:26 - 12:29So, it is possible that some people would
have considered -
12:29 - 12:30this factor back then as well.
-
12:30 - 12:32However, to consider that it was the
only determining factor and -
12:32 - 12:35the sole basis of everything that
happened; that everyone came together -
12:35 - 12:37and decided to keep the Hashemites
out; and that it was a planned conspiracy -
12:37 - 12:39from the very beginning; etc.
-
12:39 - 12:42In my opinion, to make such a far-reaching
claim, -
12:42 - 12:46one needs a rather staggering amount
of evidence than is generally cited. -
12:46 - 12:47[Ilyas] Alright.
Moving forward, Ghamidi Sahab. -
12:47 - 12:51The most important point of our entire
conversation, -
12:51 - 12:55the point around which all our explanation
and -
12:55 - 12:59all the positions of the partisans revolve
and the point that affords -
12:59 - 13:03all sides some benefit of doubt and that is
the storm that manifested itself -
13:03 - 13:05in the shape of Uthman’s (ra) murder.
-
13:05 - 13:11The question arises in everyone’s mind,
whoever has heard your position -
13:11 - 13:13in these fifteen episodes, is this:
-
13:13 - 13:19One party is demanding retaliation against
the murderers of Uthman (ra). -
13:19 - 13:23However, when the party making the
demand comes to power… -
13:23 - 13:27Muawiya (ra) ruled for nineteen years
and the reason for his coming to power -
13:27 - 13:30was the dispute around Uthman’s (ra)
murder. -
13:30 - 13:38So, if it was not the desire for power and
become the ruler of the empire, -
13:38 - 13:41then what became of the real reason
for coming to power? -
13:41 - 13:44In other words, what became of Uthman’s
(ra) murderers in Muawiya’s (ra) reign? -
13:44 - 13:46Muawiya (ra) reigned for 19 years
without sharing power with anyone. -
13:46 - 13:50What did he do about the event that led
to everything: -
13:50 - 13:53the Battle of the Camel, the Battle of
Siffin, and the endless bloodshed -
13:53 - 13:55within the Muslim community?
-
13:55 - 13:58[Ghamidi] There were two types of
people among Uthman’s (ra) murderers. -
13:58 - 14:00You are familiar, of course, that the
incident took the shape of a riot. -
14:00 - 14:02A mob fell upon the city.
-
14:02 - 14:09And it was not a couple of men who broke
into Uthman’s (ra) house; it was a mob. -
14:09 - 14:14There are two salient names when
it comes to who, from the mob, -
14:14 - 14:17laid their hands upon and murdered
Uthman (ra). -
14:18 - 14:21One is Muhammad bin Abi Bakr.
-
14:21 - 14:27He was the Abu Bakr’s (ra) son and
was brought up by Syedna Ali (ra) himself. -
14:28 - 14:34After Abu Bakr’s (ra) death, Ali (ra)
had married his widow. -
14:34 - 14:37So, Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was brought
up in Syedna Ali’s (ra) household. -
14:37 - 14:41Second was Malik al-Ashtar.
-
14:41 - 14:47Both these men could be pointed out
as Uthman’s murderers! -
14:48 - 14:51There would, of course, have been a
trial first and only then action -
14:51 - 14:54could be taken against them.
These were the two people. -
14:54 - 14:57How conspicuous were these two
people as Uthman’s murderers? -
14:57 - 15:00You can get a sense of this from that fact
that our venerated scholar, -
15:00 - 15:04Maulana Syed Abul Alaa Maududi, who,
as compared to mine, -
15:04 - 15:08was making a different case altogether.
-
15:08 - 15:12He too was forced to remark: ‘I can
explain and justify every action -
15:12 - 15:16taken by Ali (ra), except the position
he bestowed upon the two.’ -
15:16 - 15:21Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was appointed as
the governor of Egypt later on. -
15:21 - 15:23[Ilyas] It happened after Uthman’s (ra)
murder? -
15:23 - 15:27[Ghamidi] Of course. After Uthman’s (ra)
murder, when Ali (ra) formed his government. -
15:27 - 15:30He would appoint governors after he has
formed the government, right? -
15:30 - 15:31They were so conspicuous.
-
15:31 - 15:34And both of them were dead when
Muawiya (ra) became the sole ruler. -
15:34 - 15:35Now, we are left with others.
-
15:35 - 15:39The problem was that there was no
certainty who among the other people -
15:39 - 15:43was involved in the murder.
It was an open question. -
15:43 - 15:46In fact, if you read the history, you would
come to know whenever -
15:46 - 15:51it was found out that someone was involved
in the murder, he was brought to justice. -
15:52 - 15:56You will find all the details of these
events in a number of historical tracts. -
15:56 - 16:00However, two conspicuous perpetrators
who should have been apprehended -
16:00 - 16:05and who were closest to Ali (ra) at the
time, both those men were dead -
16:05 - 16:07by the time Muawiya came to power.
-
16:07 - 16:13[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, you give a rational
explanation of every partisan’s position -
16:13 - 16:16based on the available evidence.
-
16:17 - 16:21I am sure the question would be bothering
people and I want you to discuss it: -
16:21 - 16:26If Uthman (ra), the Caliph of the Muslims,
was subjected to the gravest injustice, -
16:26 - 16:29and his murderers were known …
-
16:29 - 16:32Obviously, Syedna Ali (ra) would have
been aware of these things. -
16:32 - 16:34All of us deeply revere Ali (ra).
-
16:34 - 16:37You, yourself, gave the examples of his
intellect and knowledge. -
16:37 - 16:39So, how this this happen?
-
16:39 - 16:43What, according to you, is the explanation
for the fact that not only did Ali (ra) -
16:43 - 16:47not bring the two to justice after the
notorious murder of the caliph, -
16:47 - 16:54but he appointed them to important
positions in his government? -
16:54 - 17:00Do you think there is a justification and
explanation for Syedna Ali’s (ra) actions? -
17:01 - 17:05[Ghamidi] As I already remarked that
Maulana Syedna Abul Alaa Maududi -
17:05 - 17:10described his entire case.
He has defended Ali (ra) in every sense. -
17:10 - 17:12However, he too could not defend
him on this point. -
17:12 - 17:14Here, he couldn’t defend Ali’s (ra)
position at all. -
17:14 - 17:18Nonetheless, I would argue that Ali’s (ra)
action, according to me, -
17:18 - 17:20could have a reason of its own.
-
17:20 - 17:24In other words, I am claiming that despite
all this, Ali’s (ra) position has a rationale. -
17:24 - 17:25Syedna Ali (ra) made a decision.
-
17:25 - 17:28It was the decision of assuming the
responsibility -
17:28 - 17:30of the government of the Muslim empire.
-
17:30 - 17:32There could have been two responses
to the situation. -
17:32 - 17:36One response would have been this: when
he was requested to assume -
17:36 - 17:39the responsibility of government, he
could have refused. -
17:39 - 17:43Instead, he could have said that they must
first wait for the leadership of Quraish -
17:43 - 17:46and the Muslims to arrive from different
corners of the empire. -
17:46 - 17:50Or, that all the leaders, representatives
of the people should first assemble, -
17:50 - 17:54and then, they could freely elect either
Ali (ra) or -
17:54 - 17:57anyone else to be the next caliph.
-
17:57 - 18:01It could have been the case that on the
occasion he would not have taken -
18:01 - 18:03control of the reins of the government.
-
18:03 - 18:05This could have been one possible response
or decision to the situation. -
18:05 - 18:07However, Ali (ra) did not make this
decision. -
18:07 - 18:11Although, the events that followed have
made it clear that the first scenario -
18:11 - 18:13would possibly have been better
for everyone. -
18:13 - 18:17But, Ali (ra) made a different decision.
And the decision was this: -
18:17 - 18:21the manner in which the rioters had
occupied Medina and the way -
18:21 - 18:25the situation has descended into a
bloodbath in order to rescue -
18:25 - 18:27the Muslim community from the
catastrophe, -
18:27 - 18:32Ali (ra), with utmost sincerity – and all
signs point toward his utmost sincerity – -
18:32 - 18:36resolved to assume the responsibility
of government. -
18:36 - 18:39I have pointed this out earlier as well:
at the time, Ali (ra) was the most -
18:39 - 18:42exalted personality in the
Muslim community. -
18:42 - 18:45In other words, it can also become a
reason for impelling you to action -
18:45 - 18:49when you believe that you are the best
person upon whom the people could unite. -
18:49 - 18:53On such occasions, you form an opinion.
-
18:53 - 18:56He formed an opinion and took over
the government. -
18:56 - 18:59One of the possible consequences, as he
assumed the responsibility of government, -
18:59 - 19:03would have been the unanimous
acceptance of this act by the people. -
19:03 - 19:07In such a scenario, all the people would
abide by his edicts and -
19:07 - 19:11all the provincial governors would accept
his command in the same spirit -
19:11 - 19:16as had been the norm during the reign
of earlier Rightly Guided Caliphs. -
19:17 - 19:21Similarly, people would not have rallied
against Ali (ra) under Aisha’s (ra) banner -
19:21 - 19:25And Talha (ra) and Zubair (ra) too would
not have adopted the position they did. -
19:25 - 19:27This could have been one scenario!
-
19:27 - 19:31It would have been exactly the same
scenario that Syedna Omar (ra) described -
19:31 - 19:34with reference to Syedna Abu Bakr’s (ra)
appointment as the caliph: -
19:34 - 19:39‘I had made an emergency decision
and Allah saved us from its harm.’ -
19:40 - 19:45In Ali’s (ra) case, however, the decision
he took led, in practical terms, to harm. -
19:45 - 19:49In other words, a lot of people did
not accept the decision. -
19:49 - 19:51Gradually, the opposition kept growing.
-
19:51 - 19:55Obviously, in this backdrop, there was
just one option left for him: -
19:55 - 19:59to run the administration with the help
of the people who supported him. -
20:00 - 20:04In other words, as his opponents did
not accept it and -
20:04 - 20:08he also refused to rescind his decision,
then he would, -
20:08 - 20:13of course, run the government and
commandeer his army -
20:13 - 20:18with the same people because they
accepted his authority in the first stage. -
20:18 - 20:25So for me, such decisions are not barren:
they have their consequences. -
20:25 - 20:30And even the greatest of men just
have to accept the consequences. -
20:30 - 20:33So Ali (ra) seems to have accepted the
ramifications of his decision. -
20:33 - 20:36[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, the explanation
you just gave illustrates the principle -
20:36 - 20:38you have been trying to get across to
the people -
20:38 - 20:40from the beginning of the series:
-
20:40 - 20:44that is, instead of looking at an
individual’s political decisions -
20:44 - 20:47and practical affairs from the viewpoint
of the notion of truth or falsehood, -
20:47 - 20:51if we approach them
considering the practical realities, -
20:51 - 20:56expediencies, and constraints within
a political context, -
20:56 - 20:59then we can explain all actions.
-
20:59 - 21:02However, if you try to frame it within
a strictly religious discourse and -
21:02 - 21:04start condemning people for their
perceived moral failures, -
21:04 - 21:07then every single individual becomes
susceptible to the greatest condemnation. -
21:07 - 21:11[Ghamidi] If we adopt this approach,
then we might even have to discuss -
21:11 - 21:15certain measures taken by Omar (ra)
and Abu Bakr (ra) as well. -
21:15 - 21:19And political expediencies are kept in
consideration in political actions. -
21:19 - 21:22At times, many things have to be
kept in consideration… -
21:22 - 21:27Look, even the Prophet (pbuh) had to
take care of certain things: -
21:27 - 21:29We know that Abdullah bin Ubay
adopted a malicious approach -
21:29 - 21:30toward the Prophet (pbuh).
-
21:30 - 21:34During the Expedition of Banu Mustaliq,
he instigated people -
21:34 - 21:36against the Prophet (pbuh).
-
21:36 - 21:42And we also know that he uttered
a poisonous sentence – -
21:42 - 21:45and the Quran has reproduced the
sentence – -
21:45 - 21:48that could be considered insolence
and insult of the last degree. -
21:48 - 21:51Quran has reproduced the sentence
he uttered in Surah al-Munafiqun. -
21:51 - 21:56However, despite the fact that
Abdullah bin Ubay’s son offered -
21:56 - 22:00to behead his father, the Prophet
(pbuh) refused. -
22:00 - 22:02He declined his offer and replied:
-
22:02 - 22:05‘People would say that Muhammad
kills his companions!’ -
22:05 - 22:09Thus, in political matters, certain things
have to be similarly overlooked. -
22:09 - 22:13However, Uthman’s murder pertained to the
questions of retributive justice (qisas). -
22:13 - 22:16The former case pertains to Abdullah
bin Ubay’s insolence. -
22:16 - 22:20It was such a matter in which you
could not identify a specific crime. -
22:20 - 22:22Thus, it was overlooked.
-
22:22 - 22:26However, qisas has an irreducible
moral dimension. -
22:26 - 22:31So, the matters that pertain to moral
questions may be delayed… -
22:31 - 22:35And in my view, Ali’s (ra) decision was
-
22:35 - 22:39not to let Uthman’s (ra) murderers
off the hook. -
22:39 - 22:41However, he delayed the delivery
of justice. -
22:41 - 22:44And he repeatedly underscored the
reasons for the delay: -
22:44 - 22:52I can only execute this task if you accept
my decision and come to my assistance! -
22:52 - 22:54So, this is the plea Ali (ra) is making…
-
22:54 - 22:57He did not evade the issue of delivering
justice to Uthman (ra). -
22:57 - 23:02The point I am trying to clarify is this:
the attitude has developed -
23:02 - 23:06in our society to judge and condemn
one or the other party. -
23:06 - 23:10However, in such sensitive matters
the positions of and the constraints -
23:10 - 23:13upon every group must be kept in
consideration. -
23:13 - 23:16And in today’s world, when we form
opinions and make decisions -
23:16 - 23:19about political matters, we take all
these factors into consideration. -
23:19 - 23:23[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, you provided the
explanation and -
23:23 - 23:27justification of Ali’s (ra) steps, which
according to you, Maulana Maududi, -
23:27 - 23:30who stands opposite to you in
the entire matter, couldn’t offer. -
23:30 - 23:34But you have highlighted a new and
unique dimension for the people -
23:34 - 23:37whom you are trying to teach the art
of assessing the positions -
23:37 - 23:39of the opposing sides in an
unbiased manner. -
23:39 - 23:41We shall take the conversation forward.
-
23:41 - 23:45Inshallah, in the next episode, we shall
ask you about Muawiya (ra), -
23:45 - 23:48whom we give a lot of leeway that there
was no house of representatives -
23:48 - 23:52in that age. However, the empire had
already expanded when Uthman (ra) -
23:52 - 23:54was elected as the caliph, but still a
scientific approach was adopted -
23:54 - 23:55to choose the new ruler.
-
23:55 - 23:57Why did Muawiya (ra) not adopt the
same approach and -
23:57 - 23:59why did he insist on transferring
the government to Yazid? -
23:59 - 24:00All these topics shall be brought
under discussion. -
24:00 - 24:04We are running out of time.
We shall take your leave. Allah Hafiz!
Show all