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Hazrat Ali (ra) aur Ameer Muawiya (ra) Ka Ikhtilaf - Part 16 - Javed Ahmad Ghamidi

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    [Hasan Ilyas] In the name of Allah, the
    most Gracious, the most Merciful!
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    Assalamu Alaikum.
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    We are coming to you directly from
    Ghamidi Center, Dallas, USA
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    with this weekly question-answer
    session with Ghamidi Sahab.
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    Let us begin… Ghamidi Sahab,
    thanks a lot for your time.
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    I am going to start the sixteenth episode
    of our conversation about
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    a deeply important problem about
    which you have explicated
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    your views in detail for the first time.
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    The topic is the conflict between Ali (ra)
    and Muawiya (ra), that resulted
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    in internecine wars between the
    early Muslims.
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    And even today these disagreements
    between the two Companions remain
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    the bases of extremism and sectarian
    hatred between
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    different sects among Muslims.
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    The fundamental questions around the
    issue have been discussed.
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    We got to know your viewpoint on the
    matter in detail.
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    Now, after finishing with certain
    supplementary aspects,
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    I would, inshallah, present to you the
    various sundry questions
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    that people have asked in the
    ‘comments section’.
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    Let us begin with certain fundamental
    questions of principle…
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    You have continually maintained that
    there was no scientific approach
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    of election of the ruler that Muawiya (ra)
    could have adopted and through
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    which the decision of succession could
    have been made.
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    Not only did such an approach not exist
    during Muawiya’s (ra) time,
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    but Muslims could also not invent such
    a method in the following 12 centuries
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    The question that strikes the
    mind is this:
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    The empire expanded in Omar’s (ra)
    reign too.
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    People also expanded far and wide
    across the empire.
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    There were new populations to be
    governed and there were new governors!
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    However, Omar (ra) devised a procedure
    through which a Rightly Guided Caliph,
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    i.e., Uthman (ra), was elected.
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    Thus, a scientific procedure to elect the
    head of the government did, in fact, exist
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    Now, why was this scientific procedure
    not adopted?
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    What is the excuse for this omission?
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    [Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] I have explained
    in great detail about the nature
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    of the system you are referring to.
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    The foundation of that political system
    was the leadership that had emerged
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    because of the Prophet’s (pbuh) mission.
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    During Omar’s (ra) reign, however, the
    circumstances had changed completely.
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    In other words, the tsunami of conquests
    that took place during Omar (ra) reign
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    and the way continents upon continents
    were conquered…
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    Thus, in the first stage people across the
    empire consisted of the conquerors
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    and the conquered.
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    However, gradually more and more
    people would accept Islam.
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    Of course, this process would not take
    place within a couple of years.
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    It would take some time.
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    During Omar’s (ra) reign, that spanned
    across a decade or more,
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    people started developing an interest in
    Islam and becoming Muslim on a large scale
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    So now, there were Muslims in Egypt, in
    Basra, in distant lands of Iraq and Levant
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    and in Khorasan as well.
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    So, if you are establishing a democratic
    or a consultative political system,
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    you would have to give these new
    Muslims the right to participate, right?
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    But the need for such a participatory
    political system would not have arisen
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    immediately after the conquests…
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    The political system they had devised
    earlier was totally appropriate
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    for the Arabian Peninsula.
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    In other words, the Quraish had a
    preeminence in the Arabian Peninsula.
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    And with the guidance of the Prophet
    (pbuh), the possible dispute between
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    the Ansar and the Quraish was averted.
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    After the Prophet’s (pbuh) testimony in
    Quraish’s favor, there was no longer
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    any room left for discussion
    or disagreement.
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    And the point was both clear and
    principled: the Prophet (pbuh) had stated
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    an’naasu tabi’un li Quraish.
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    In the Arabian Peninsula, only Quraish
    has the position to lead the people.
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    Obviously, it would be the leadership
    of the Quraish…
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    The leadership of the Quraish was
    already present in Medina.
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    There are two factors that you
    cannot overlook:
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    One, the Muslim state expanded
    continually out of Medina.
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    And two, during the Prophet’s (pbuh)
    lifetime,
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    it encompassed the entire
    Arabian Peninsula.
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    And the people who constituted the new
    crop of leadership that had emerged
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    in Arabia had all migrated to Medina.
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    The political order in which the
    Medina-based leadership of the Quraish
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    were in control of decision-making would
    have lasted for, at most, five more years.
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    In other words, this order could
    not run indefinitely.
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    It was not possible to base future
    political order on this model.
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    On the occasion of his succession, how
    many people where there whom Omar (ra)
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    addressed regarding the possibility of
    disagreement and conflict about rulership?
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    And how many of those people were
    still left at Muawiya’s (ra) time?
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    Now the empire had expanded to
    the point where it was necessary
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    to make a decision keeping in view
    its future.
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    In other words, it might have been
    possible to adopt the old system
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    once or twice in order to transfer power.
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    I had mentioned, had the martyrdom
    of Uthman (ra) not taken place,
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    had such a calamity not befallen
    the Muslim umma,
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    if the resulting chaos and tumult had
    not taken place,
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    and if Uthman (ra) had died a natural
    death,
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    it is possible the decision of transferring
    power would have been based
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    on the existing mode and it would
    have been readily accepted.
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    However the chaos laid bare the conditions
    that were demanding the establishment
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    of a new modality and system of
    transferring power.
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    Tell me, were all the people who organized
    the riot against Uthman (ra) from Medina?
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    They had arrived in Medina from
    different places.
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    It means that there were people in distant
    lands
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    who had a consciousness of their rights.
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    They were expressing objections and
    disagreements –
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    it doesn’t matter whether they were
    right or wrong!
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    And they also demanded their participation
    in the business of the empire.
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    All these things emerge with time…
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    The system that had been established
    after the passing of the Prophet (pbuh)
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    would have at the most, worked for
    one more election.
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    Afterwards, either you had to give
    representation in the government
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    to the hundreds of thousands of new
    people coming into Islam or
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    you had to come up with an
    alternative system of government.
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    There was no other way out!
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    [Ilyas] Alright.
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    To clarify your point further,
    Ghamidi Sahab…
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    As the logical mind looks at the
    situation…
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    since the empire had already expanded
    during Omar’s (ra) reign and
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    by the end of Uthman’s (ra) reign it
    had grown further.
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    However, there was an established system
    of electing the new caliph…
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    The question I want to ask is this:
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    In the expanded Muslim empire, was not
    the council that Omar (ra) constituted
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    for the election of the new caliph
    representative of the entire empire?
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    Instead, did he restrict the power of
    decision-making within
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    the existing leadership of the
    Quraish in Medina?
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    [Ghamidi] I have stated the reason for it.
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    They were still only conquered
    territories.
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    For instance, we established Pakistan…
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    Just think about it.
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    Have you ever given the tribal areas
    a chance to make them
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    part of this system in this modern
    era, in this 21st century?
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    Here, too, it is not a matter of
    two years.
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    Seventy years have passed, so you
    demand this from whom there?
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    That the conquered territories should be
    included within such a short span of time.
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    I request you to understand the political
    issues in a political way.
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    When there is an expansion, and especially
    as a result of victories,
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    first the peace is established.
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    First the conquered nation learns to
    behave according to its status.
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    Then, obviously you have taken
    an invitation.
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    In this case it is not like the
    British have become the rulers.
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    Or the Portuguese have
    become rulers.
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    You have taken an invitation to
    Islam, the religion of Allah
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    And you are inviting the people
    to accept it.
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    If they accept it, and become Muslims.
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    Then they will not be conquered like
    before; their status will change.
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    How can this process of transformation
    take place in one day?
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    How will it happen as soon as
    there are victories?
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    How will it happen as soon as the
    empire expands?
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    Is this how it happens?
    We accept faith in this way?
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    The invitation will come
    Someone believes today.
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    Someone believes tomorrow.
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    It takes 10-20 years to bring about
    political change.
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    When that political change comes and
    even then you don’t pay attention to it,
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    then the political results come out.
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    In the time of Omar(ra) the
    process of that change has started.
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    I am stating that if the situation
    was fine, it could be
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    the time of Usman (ra)
    would have passed peacefully.
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    And people would have accepted
    this system only but it did not happen
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    And when it did not happen
    Then the question arises
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    Whether this kingdom will now be
    run under the leadership of four or
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    six or eight great leaders of Madinah.
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    Ok. They are also leaving
    the world.
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    That is, you can see how many
    people are still left at that time.
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    Syedna Saad bin Abi Waqas (ra) is alive.
    Talha(ra) is there, Zubair(ra) is there
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    Few people are left. Ali(ra) himself is
    still standing in the field.
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    Only a few people are left.
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    Even they passed away when action
    in the battlefield intensified.
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    Talha(ra) also passed away.
    Zubair(ra) also passed away.
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    What is left after that based on which
    you are saying that the same
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    procedure should be in effect.
    [Ilyas] A very important point
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    [Ghamidi] In other words, the time
    has come for everyone
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    to come together and figure out a
    procedure [for succession]
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    for such a large empire.
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    Such a huge event took place and it
    is surprising that in contestation
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    to that you are saying that continents
    upon continents became conquered,
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    countries upon countries became
    part of the empire but it is no big deal
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    and a handful of people in
    medina will take the final decision.
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    [Ilyas] Very important point
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    [Ghamidi] A great transformation
    has taken place.
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    You must try to understand this
    transformation.
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    Now the challenge before the Muslims
    was that, with respect to the
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    future generations was that if they
    wanted the system to be based
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    on amruhum shura bainahum then
    they should legislate a procedure.
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    In other words, they ought to
    propose the method through
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    which remote areas would find
    representation in the empire?
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    The Qur’an guaranteed equal rights
    to the new converts
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    Fa ikhwanukum fi din.
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    This is a declaration of the Quran
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    So if their status is equal and at
    the same time,
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    If you claim that a government should
    be established based on their opinion,
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    then you will have to create a system
    to incorporate their opinions.
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    If you don’t do that it, then there will
    be a revolt.
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    Something along the similar lines will
    take place as had happened
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    in the era of Usman (ra)
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    In my opinion, the revolt should have
    set alarm bells ringing that
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    your old system cannot work anymore.
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    These People who had come from
    different places were telling them
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    that their system needs to undergo
    certain transformations.
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    [Ilyas] This is also a very important
    point, Ghamidi sahab
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    [Ghamidi] When those warnings were not
    heeded, they started moved on their own.
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    [Ilyas] So, the revolt itself was
    basically insisting on a new system
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    of the house of representatives?
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    [Ghamidi] Correct. There was no
    other option.
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    It was as if they were deliberately
    refusing to take notice of the situation
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    by arguing that they would elect a
    leader like in earlier times when
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    just 4 to 5 Muslims got together
    and elected a caliph.
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    Just take a look at history
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    When Abu Bakr(ra) chose Omar(ra)
    as his successor,
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    he did that in the presence of virtually
    the entire leadership of the Quraysh.
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    At most there would have been
    8-10 people.
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    There would have been 15 of them if
    you count the leaders
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    from ansar as well. They all are in Medina
    They were called upon to embrace Islam.
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    They are important responsible leaders
    and in control during that period
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    Representation is taking place on
    their basis.
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    But you are arguing that we should be
    continuing with that procedure.
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    How could we continue with that procedure
    after such a huge transformation?
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    What is their rationale?
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    Why did Omar(ra) not adopt a
    new procedure?
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    Let’s suppose for a while that Hazrat
    Omar(ra) made a mistake
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    by not adopting a new procedure.
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    Presumably. Although, according to
    me, it was not a mistake.
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    The situation had not undergone
    major changes at that moment.
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    Nonetheless, he did not adopt a
    new procedure.
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    He could not read the situation.
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    If you don’t read the situation, then will
    the ground realities will change?
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    They will stand and assert their
    existence.
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    So, if Omar (ra) did not see it coming.
    What happened then?
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    This insurrection against Usman(ra) did
    not come from the leadership of Madinah.
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    People came from Egypt, Iraq,
    Kufa (city in Iraq)
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    And then they changed the entire
    situation.
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    They occupied Madinah
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    They took certain steps against the honour
    and dignity
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    of the "Mothers of the Believers"
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    They started leading prayers in
    Masjid Nabavi,
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    The caliph of the Muslims, who was the
    ruler of such a large empire,
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    could not leave his own house.
    Such a situation was created.
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    So, admit the changes, that went on
    in the political landscape
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    Are you going to reject it as mere
    rioting?
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    There is no doubt that they were
    rioters.
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    There is no doubt that it was a rebellious
    group.
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    But why did this revolt take place?
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    We need to see the political reasons
    for this uprising
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    The political reasons are not just that
    there is opposition to certain
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    measures taken after Usman(ra)
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    Rather, the people of these areas
    want some sort of participation
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    and representation within this system.
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    Or else you can pitch an alternative
    conception [of representation]
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    to those people.
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    [Ilyas] Yes, Ghamidi Sahab. Today you
    have given us a new perspective on this.
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    I will continue this discussion. Another
    argument to counter your
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    point of view is that although we
    agree with you so far but,
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    When Amir Muawiyah(ra) himself
    chose Yazid, the method of selection
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    he adopted was also based on
    consensus.
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    A house of representatives is in place
    and the selection has been made
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    through the house of representatives,
    their election has been confirmed
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    and Yazid has been appointed
    at their behest.
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    My question is that the system that
    was in place during the reign of
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    Amir Muawiyah(ra), whatever it was
    like, the religious perspective
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    was also there, they were even discussing
    the issue of succession
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    except for the fact that Muawiya
    had already determined that the
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    caliphate will pass on to his progeny
    and no one else.
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    [Ghamidi] See, these are two totally
    different points.
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    We shouldn’t muddle them up.
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    Either you say that the principle of
    Islam is that it doesn’t matter
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    where a person come down from
    from.
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    Whether he has descended from
    the skies or if he takes over
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    the government with his sword.
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    It does not matter whether he is a
    military commander and
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    overthrows the government in an
    army coup by imposing martial law.
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    He is only bound to hold a discussion.
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    So, this is a very easy matter.
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    It doesn’t make any difference.
    Every man will do it.
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    But if amrahum shura baynamhum forms
    the basis of the transfer of power,
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    it entails that such an arrangement should
    come into being in a democratic manner.
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    That is, democracy does not mean
    that a person, wherever he comes from,
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    will take decisions based on his whims
    and wishes.
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    You have to take advice; no dictatorship
    or monarchy runs without a consultation.
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    You have to take advice from the elite,
    the chiefs as well as the leaders.
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    Muawiyah (ra) also consulted people
    but it was carried out
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    under certain limitations.
    They were taking a huge decision.
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    In my opinion, that decision was not just
    that his son or someone else
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    would be the ruler after him.
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    It was a very simple decision and
    there was no need for much hesitation.
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    They were deciding the system of
    the empire now for the future.
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    Is it going to function based on the
    principles of amrahum shura baynamhum.
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    Are members of a council going to
    decide on the issue of succession
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    at their own discretion. Is that going to
    be the rule governing the emprie?
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    So, I suggested, that if they were to
    adopt this principle,
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    it would be necessary to have a
    House of Representatives.
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    Then it cannot be at your discretion.
  • 15:04 - 15:09
    This house should represent the regions,
    tribes and nations [withing the empire].
  • 15:09 - 15:13
    If you can’t establish such a house
    they took a decision that…
  • 15:13 - 15:17
    When I say it couldn’t be established,
    it is in reference to those
  • 15:17 - 15:20
    who are expecting it to be made.
  • 15:20 - 15:24
    In my opinion, there is no situation,
    there is no social consciousness,
  • 15:24 - 15:26
    the world has not reached there yet.
  • 15:26 - 15:28
    Why would they even think of that?
  • 15:28 - 15:32
    So when they looked around, they
    realized that there could be only
  • 15:32 - 15:34
    one case for such a large empire.
  • 15:34 - 15:37
    And that we should decide that
    there would be a monarchy here.
  • 15:37 - 15:40
    Without it, the empire could not
    be managed.
  • 15:41 - 15:45
    If any other method is adopted then
    the civil war will take place.
  • 15:45 - 15:48
    Different people will come to the
    field in the same way.
  • 15:48 - 15:52
    And the result will be that this empire
    will not only pass the history
  • 15:52 - 15:55
    as an empire but will end up in
    small fragments.
  • 15:56 - 16:02
    So he made a very wise decision because
    there is nothing else in the competition
  • 16:02 - 16:06
    In the world, when you make a political
    decision, something must be available.
  • 16:07 - 16:12
    As we can see India and Pakistan is
    having its own government.
  • 16:12 - 16:16
    You had tens of those constitutions !
  • 16:16 - 16:20
    They were available all around the world,
    for you to pick from.
  • 16:20 - 16:23
    In their light you could draft
  • 16:23 - 16:25
    a constitution according to
    your circumstances.
  • 16:25 - 16:31
    It also took years and after a long time,
    they agreed on the constitution of 1973.
  • 16:32 - 16:37
    This is no easy task, that could have
    been done in no time.
  • 16:37 - 16:40
    And, in this matter, we already
    had numerous precedents.
  • 16:40 - 16:44
    I already stated that there was no
    precedent for such a large empire
  • 16:44 - 16:47
    to be run along a parliamentary system.
  • 16:47 - 16:50
    Was there any concept of parliament
    or the means of its establishment present?
  • 16:50 - 16:53
    In other words, how can we project
    present onto the past?
  • 16:53 - 16:58
    Thus, Muawiya’s (ra) decision was not
    simply about choosing his successor.
  • 16:58 - 17:02
    Instead, it was a decision about the
    fundamental principle on which
  • 17:02 - 17:05
    the political order of Muslims would,
    heretofore, be based upon.
  • 17:05 - 17:05
    [Ilyas] Ok
  • 17:05 - 17:08
    The decision was that it would be based
    on the principle of monarchy.
  • 17:08 - 17:12
    And the essential requirement of a
    monarchy is that it is the rule of a family.
  • 17:12 - 17:16
    And the ruling family should crystallize the
    political consciousness of the community.
  • 17:16 - 17:19
    And if the ruling family does not have
    the collective assent of the community
  • 17:19 - 17:21
    it is not possible for
    even the monarchy to function successfully
  • 17:21 - 17:23
    And it should always be kept in mind
    that even in monarchy,
  • 17:23 - 17:25
    decisions are taken through consultation.
  • 17:25 - 17:27
    Undoubtedly, Muawiya (ra), too, made the
    momentous decision consultatively.
  • 17:27 - 17:29
    He, of course, sought opinions.
  • 17:29 - 17:32
    He considered the opinion of the grandees
    and elders of the Muslim community.
  • 17:32 - 17:33
    He also sought the opinion of the people
    closest to him.
  • 17:33 - 17:36
    In other words, he sought the opinion of
    the people who mattered in the community,
  • 17:36 - 17:37
    of the people
    of his clan.
  • 17:37 - 17:39
    However, did he invite all the possible
    contestants
  • 17:39 - 17:41
    to give their opinion in the matter?
    Did he invite Hussain (ra)?
  • 17:41 - 17:45
    Did he invite Abdullah bin Zubair?
    Did he invite Abdullah bin Umar?
  • 17:45 - 17:48
    Did he invite Abdul Rahman bin Abi Bakr?
  • 17:48 - 17:51
    In other words, did he consult with the
    new leadership
  • 17:51 - 17:53
    of the Quraish that was emerging?
  • 17:53 - 17:55
    With respect to this emergent leadership,
    Muawiya (ra) sought
  • 17:55 - 17:57
    the methods to suppress their voice.
  • 17:57 - 18:01
    It is because monarchy does not brook any
    opposition to its political power.
  • 18:01 - 18:04
    Monarchy can afford you all sorts of
    freedoms.
  • 18:04 - 18:08
    Even now, you see, if you have a monarchy
    present in your centre (of Muslim world),
  • 18:09 - 18:12
    it will provide you a lot of freedom.
    For instance, you can give sermons.
  • 18:12 - 18:14
    You spread knowledge.
    You can write books.
  • 18:14 - 18:15
    Whatever else you like!
  • 18:15 - 18:17
    However, there is no room for
    political disagreement.
  • 18:17 - 18:19
    It is structurally impossible.
  • 18:19 - 18:21
    Monarchy won’t work with
    political dissent.
  • 18:21 - 18:26
    And neither the Mughals, nor the Ottomans,
    nor the Abbasids, nor the Umayyads,
  • 18:26 - 18:30
    nor any other monarchy of the world
    could allow for political disagreements
  • 18:30 - 18:33
    in their realm. So, the decision that
    Mu’awiyah(ra) made,
  • 18:33 - 18:36
    was not simply the decision to appoint
    his successor.
  • 18:36 - 18:39
    Rather, it was a decision of principle:
    from now onwards,
  • 18:39 - 18:41
    the system of government would
    be a monarchy.
  • 18:41 - 18:44
    And the people of the time accepted
    it as such…
  • 18:44 - 18:48
    In the following twelve centuries, nearly
    twenty-six empires emerged within
  • 18:48 - 18:51
    the Muslim civilization and all of them
    were established
  • 18:51 - 18:53
    on the principle of monarchy.
  • 18:54 - 18:57
    None of these empires adopted a
    different political system.
  • 18:57 - 19:02
    So, this is the compulsion of history that
    renders one completely speechless.
  • 19:02 - 19:05
    Therefore, any single individual cannot be
    damned for a phenomenon that
  • 19:05 - 19:06
    persisted across centuries.
  • 19:06 - 19:09
    If you are tempted to accuse somebody,
    then the entire Muslim ummah
  • 19:09 - 19:12
    stands accused for not being able to
    construct a political system based
  • 19:12 - 19:14
    on the principle of amru’hum shuraa
    bayna’hum.
  • 19:14 - 19:19
    And eventually, when the new nation-states
    emerged, throughout the Muslim world,
  • 19:19 - 19:22
    we were forced to emulate the West.
  • 19:22 - 19:25
    [Ilyas] Yes. Ghamidi sahab.
    Your point is eminently sensible.
  • 19:25 - 19:29
    Let me put forth another related difficulty
    that troubles the religious mind…
  • 19:29 - 19:32
    The difficulty is this: the upshot of your
    discourse is that
  • 19:32 - 19:34
    we did not go from caliphate to
    monarchy.
  • 19:34 - 19:37
    Instead, monarchy was the pre-existing
    political system.
  • 19:37 - 19:39
    The coming of Islam created the space
    for a ‘moment of democracy’.
  • 19:39 - 19:41
    However, quite soon monarchy
    reasserted itself.
  • 19:41 - 19:44
    The question that comes to mind is this:
    Once Islam reveals a principle, it is final.
  • 19:44 - 19:47
    For example, alcohol was banned the
    moment Islam forbade it.
  • 19:47 - 19:48
    No matter if, earlier, people were
    used to drinking.
  • 19:48 - 19:51
    Similar verdicts were revealed and
    implemented about other matters as well.
  • 19:51 - 19:54
    Now, if the situation was not favourable
    in Muawiya's (ra) reign…
  • 19:54 - 19:56
    Nonetheless, he stayed in power for
    twenty years.
  • 19:56 - 19:57
    He could and should have created a
    favourable situation.
  • 19:57 - 20:00
    He could have moved toward implementing
    the political instructions of Islam.
  • 20:00 - 20:02
    Islam had transformed the vision of
    collective order and
  • 20:02 - 20:04
    the election of rulers through the
    concepts of democracy and
  • 20:04 - 20:05
    amru’hum shuraa bayna’hum.
  • 20:05 - 20:07
    Why did Muawiya (ra) turn back the
    wheel, instead of letting it go forward?
  • 20:07 - 20:09
    [Ghamidi] In other words,
    Muawiya (ra), alone,
  • 20:09 - 20:11
    should have done everything.
    Did others have no responsibility at all?
  • 20:11 - 20:13
    Did his opponents propose any
    alternative system?
  • 20:13 - 20:19
    I am trying to convey that we are, in fact
    projecting the present onto the canvas of
  • 20:19 - 20:26
    the past when we say that constitutional
    democracy and its institutions must have
  • 20:26 - 20:29
    been as readily available for Muawiya (ra)
  • 20:29 - 20:31
    to put into practice
    as they are to us today.
  • 20:31 - 20:34
    My point is this: If we insist on holding
    Muawiya (ra) accountable on this point,
  • 20:34 - 20:36
    then we must also hold others accountable
    as well.
  • 20:36 - 20:39
    Did Muawiya’s (ra) opponents propose a
    solution to the political conundrum?
  • 20:39 - 20:41
    Did they offer any suggestions?
  • 20:41 - 20:43
    Do inform me if you come across any
    such proposals in our history!
  • 20:43 - 20:47
    In fact, the leaders of all the subsequent
    revolts claimed the right to rulership
  • 20:47 - 20:50
    of the Muslim community on the basis of
    their lineage and affiliation
  • 20:50 - 20:52
    to the Prophet (pbuh).
  • 20:52 - 20:53
    [Ilyas] What does it mean Ghamidi sahab?
  • 20:53 - 20:56
    [Ghamidi] If you get a chance, read the
    correspondence
  • 20:56 - 20:58
    of Nafs-e-Zakiyya and Mansour.
  • 20:58 - 21:03
    In other words, the people who rose up
    from among the Ahl-e-Bayt and the Alids,
  • 21:03 - 21:07
    the people who launched insurrections,
    did they propose that the political order
  • 21:07 - 21:10
    should be based on the principle of
    amru’hum shuraa bayna’hum?
  • 21:10 - 21:12
    And for that we are proposing these
    methods?
  • 21:12 - 21:16
    My point it this: had anyone proposed
    a theoretical alternative to monarchy
  • 21:16 - 21:19
    as a form of politics, then we could hold
    Muawiya (ra) responsible
  • 21:19 - 21:20
    for not considering it.
  • 21:20 - 21:22
    [Ilyas] Because there was an alternative
    which he didn’t accept
  • 21:22 - 21:25
    [Ghamidi] First, an alternative vision of
    political order should have been posited.
  • 21:25 - 21:27
    Could the personalities opposed to
    Muawiya (ra) come up with
  • 21:27 - 21:29
    an alternative vision of politics?
  • 21:29 - 21:31
    Could the people who launched revolts
    after Muawiya’s (ra) reign
  • 21:31 - 21:33
    posit an alternative to monarchy?
  • 21:33 - 21:35
    Later on, people like the Abbasids,
    who rose up with new flags,
  • 21:35 - 21:37
    did they come up with an alternative
    to monarchy?
  • 21:37 - 21:39
    Could anyone do it even after a
    hundred years?
  • 21:39 - 21:42
    And, further, when Islamic legal corpus
    began to be compiled,
  • 21:42 - 21:46
    i.e., the jurisprudence, could the jurists
    and the theologians come up
  • 21:46 - 21:48
    with an alternative to monarchy?
  • 21:48 - 21:52
    I am sorry to say this but it was
    universally accepted
  • 21:52 - 21:54
    that until the Day of Judgment
  • 21:54 - 21:58
    only a person belonging to the
    Quraish could become the Caliph.
  • 21:58 - 22:01
    In other words, this is how the
    Muslim scholars and
  • 22:01 - 22:04
    sciences (mis)understood the decision
    that the Prophet (pbuh)
  • 22:04 - 22:06
    made for the situation in Arabia
    immediately after his departure.
  • 22:06 - 22:09
    Therefore, for God’s sake, don’t project
    the present onto the past
  • 22:09 - 22:11
    and make criminals out of some people.
  • 22:11 - 22:13
    Here we are talking about the entire
    knowledge system
  • 22:13 - 22:15
    of the Muslim civilization…
    What were all the scholars trying to do?
  • 22:15 - 22:18
    Are you going claim that all the jurists
    and theologians had turned
  • 22:18 - 22:20
    into the footmen of the Quraish?
    No!
  • 22:20 - 22:23
    It is, in fact, the theoretical plane
    they were operating in.
  • 22:23 - 22:25
    In other words, they thought, since the
    Prophet (pbuh) has stated:
  • 22:25 - 22:26
    al aimmat’u min Quraish, only a Quraish
    could become
  • 22:26 - 22:28
    the caliph till the Day of Judgment.
  • 22:28 - 22:32
    For instance, Pakistan was created as
    a new country for Muslims.
  • 22:32 - 22:35
    Now, if you pore through the entire
    Islamic jurisprudence or
  • 22:35 - 22:38
    the kalam theology or the political
    discussions of the past thousand years,
  • 22:38 - 22:41
    what would you find?
    No doubt, Pakistan is a democracy.
  • 22:41 - 22:44
    However, who are the people who could
    contest in elections?
  • 22:44 - 22:46
    According to the Islamic jurisprudence,
    only people with Quraish bloodline
  • 22:46 - 22:47
    could contest in elections.
  • 22:47 - 22:48
    And people would have to choose one
    of them as their leader.
  • 22:48 - 22:51
    It was only after the emergence of the
    Ottomans that people
  • 22:51 - 22:52
    started questioning this dictum.
  • 22:52 - 22:57
    I have argued that Prophet’s (pbuh)
    verdict in this matter was not eternal.
  • 22:57 - 22:59
    It was a verdict between two
    groups of people.
  • 22:59 - 23:01
    There was a dispute among them.
  • 23:01 - 23:03
    And the Prophet (pbuh) gave a verdict
    about the immediate situation
  • 23:03 - 23:05
    after his passing from the world.
  • 23:05 - 23:09
    Once upon a time, a nuanced discussion
    took place about this point between
  • 23:09 - 23:12
    Maulana Syed Abul Alaa Maududi and
    Ustad Amin Ahsan Islahi.
  • 23:13 - 23:17
    People should read the discussion and
    they will gain insight from it.
  • 23:17 - 23:19
    Earlier, there were two streams of
    opinion about the matter…
  • 23:19 - 23:23
    One, that al aimmat’u min Quraish is
    an eternal command of shariah.
  • 23:23 - 23:26
    The second viewpoint was put forth by
    Maulana Abul Kalam Azad that it was,
  • 23:26 - 23:28
    in fact, information disclosed
    by the Prophet (pbuh).
  • 23:28 - 23:30
    Ustad Imam argued that it was a verdict
    about the dispute of leadership
  • 23:30 - 23:31
    between the Quraish and the Ansar.
  • 23:31 - 23:33
    It was neither a command of Law,
    nor simply a piece of information.
  • 23:33 - 23:35
    In reality, it was a verdict to
    settle a dispute.
  • 23:35 - 23:38
    Back then, Ansar and Quraish
    were two groups…
  • 23:38 - 23:41
    Just as we have People’s Party and Muslim
    League today and
  • 23:41 - 23:43
    we might have to decide between the two…
  • 23:43 - 23:47
    Let us suppose, that the majority
    favours the Muslim League.
  • 23:47 - 23:50
    Or, the majority favours the
    People’s Party of Pakistan.
  • 23:50 - 23:53
    And when you make a decision, it is
    going to be a time-bound decision.
  • 23:53 - 23:55
    Similarly, the Prophet (pbuh) gave a
    verdict based on the
  • 23:55 - 23:57
    principles and keeping in view the
    facts on the ground.
  • 23:57 - 23:59
    It was not a command of the Eternal Law!
  • 23:59 - 24:01
    It was simply a judgement to solve a
    dispute between two parties.
  • 24:01 - 24:03
    In fact, it was a pre-emptive judgment
    of a possible dispute
  • 24:03 - 24:06
    that the Prophet (pbuh) gave!
    So, the decision took place at the time.
  • 24:06 - 24:10
    Subsequently, based on changes in
    circumstances and transformations
  • 24:10 - 24:13
    of custom in the succeeding years
    and decades,
  • 24:13 - 24:17
    the Muslim community had to
    "make corresponding decisions".
  • 24:17 - 24:21
    I am arguing that you cannot accuse
    and hold accountable
  • 24:21 - 24:27
    any single individual for the decisions
    and choices that the Muslim community
  • 24:27 - 24:29
    made over the centuries.
  • 24:29 - 24:32
    The decisions and judgments were
    based on the customs of the age.
  • 24:32 - 24:35
    In other words, the democratic system
    that had been established was
  • 24:35 - 24:37
    practicable in a certain limited territory.
    And it worked.
  • 24:37 - 24:40
    The people at the helm of this democratic
    system were extraordinary in their abilities.
  • 24:40 - 24:42
    They made sure that the system succeeded.
  • 24:42 - 24:44
    However, in order to remain a viable
    option for the future,
  • 24:44 - 24:46
    it had to be transformed into a
    formed political system.
  • 24:46 - 24:49
    Had the Muslim community succeeded
    in transforming a tribal democracy
  • 24:49 - 24:51
    into a formal democratic system,
    things would have panned out differently.
  • 24:51 - 24:53
    These transformations are not
    commanded by the ruler from the top.
  • 24:53 - 24:55
    They are conceived by the thinkers
    and intellectuals of the society.
  • 24:55 - 24:59
    In other words, the democratic system
    operative throughout the world right now
  • 24:59 - 25:01
    has been conceived by thinkers.
  • 25:01 - 25:04
    Its foundations have been laid down
    by philosophers and sages.
  • 25:04 - 25:07
    Extraordinary books have been written
    about it, detailing the properties
  • 25:07 - 25:10
    of the system and their motivational
    underpinning in human nature.
  • 25:10 - 25:14
    And, only then, the system emerged
    through a process
  • 25:14 - 25:18
    of trial-and-error spanning centuries.
    This is how systems develop!
  • 25:18 - 25:21
    And you expect that within twenty years
    Muawiya (ra) could have intuited
  • 25:21 - 25:24
    and constructed all this?
    It was impossible.
  • 25:24 - 25:27
    He only had access to the political
    practices in vogue throughout the world.
  • 25:27 - 25:31
    And he felt there were only two options
    left: Either he would let it go.
  • 25:31 - 25:33
    People would fight among themselves.
  • 25:33 - 25:35
    And the empire would splinter
    into a hundred pieces.
  • 25:35 - 25:39
    And the protection of Islam, the
    transmission of Quran,
  • 25:39 - 25:42
    Sunnah and Hadith would be rolled back.
  • 25:42 - 25:45
    In that case, Muslims too would become
    dazed and confused
  • 25:45 - 25:47
    like the Jews and the Christians.
  • 25:47 - 25:49
    Or, the empire would have to be
    kept intact.
  • 25:49 - 25:53
    And in order to keep the empire intact,
    he took a conscious decision
  • 25:53 - 25:56
    to adopt monarchy as the political
    system.
  • 25:56 - 26:00
    For me, the point is not whether or not
    the caliphate transformed into monarchy.
  • 26:00 - 26:02
    It certainly did!
  • 26:02 - 26:04
    And it was a consciously conceived
    transformation.
  • 26:04 - 26:06
    And the transformation was the result
    of a correct decision.
  • 26:06 - 26:07
    There was no other option.
  • 26:07 - 26:10
    [Ilyas] Ghamidi sahab, you threw light on
    a topic of great historical importance.
  • 26:10 - 26:14
    You threw open new windows to let the
    light of the past illumine
  • 26:14 - 26:16
    the conundrums of the present.
  • 26:16 - 26:19
    For the first time you have illumined the
    constraints Muawiya (ra) faced and
  • 26:19 - 26:22
    the lack of alternative political
    proposals.
  • 26:22 - 26:24
    However, there are still some questions
    in my mind…
  • 26:24 - 26:28
    Even if monarchy was the only option left,
    there was still room available
  • 26:28 - 26:30
    for the choice of the monarch.
  • 26:30 - 26:33
    Why did Muawiya (ra) not pick
    another choice?
  • 26:33 - 26:35
    What became of his treaty
    with Hassan (ra)?
  • 26:35 - 26:38
    And, subsequently, the martyrdom of
    the Prophet’s (pbuh) grandson…
  • 26:38 - 26:40
    How did these implications of the decision
    manifest themselves in the Muslim ummah?
  • 26:40 - 26:42
    We are going to discuss all these matters…
  • 26:42 - 26:43
    We have reached the end of time
    for this program.
  • 26:43 - 26:44
    Thanks a lot for your time!
Title:
Hazrat Ali (ra) aur Ameer Muawiya (ra) Ka Ikhtilaf - Part 16 - Javed Ahmad Ghamidi
Description:

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Video Language:
Urdu
Duration:
26:54

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