0:00:00.930,0:00:04.930 Khuda se Mutaliq Sawalat aur Ilm [br]al Kalam ka Jawab - PART 2 0:00:04.930,0:00:05.323 by Jawed Ahmad Ghamidi 0:00:05.323,0:00:09.323 [Hassan Ilyas] Yesterday, I asked you a [br]question related to hypothetical statements 0:00:09.323,0:00:11.103 that we often use in relation to God, [br]nauzubillah (I seek refuge with Allah) 0:00:11.103,0:00:15.630 that Allah can lie, or God can make a rock[br]that even he cannot lift. 0:00:15.415,0:00:19.415 You detailed out your views on these [br]discussions. 0:00:19.415,0:00:21.955 There is a parallel aspect to it as well [br]as a doubt, 0:00:21.955,0:00:24.105 I want you to explain it to us in detail. 0:00:24.105,0:00:28.755 When you are in a discussion related to[br]the existence of God, 0:00:28.755,0:00:31.275 the argument behind confirmation for [br]God's being, 0:00:31.275,0:00:35.861 or the various aspects of atheism or [br]agnosticism that are put forward. 0:00:36.201,0:00:43.400 It is said that you logically conclude [br]the arguments with intellectual evidence. 0:00:43.127,0:00:45.497 And the other party to the discussion is[br]puzzled with your style. 0:00:45.825,0:00:48.685 My question to you today is that, 0:00:48.685,0:00:52.455 Even you include these intellectual [br]evidences & arguments in your discussions, 0:00:52.455,0:00:55.250 Also, there is a difficulty, I would request[br]if you can include it in your answer 0:00:55.250,0:00:58.355 People often say that Ghamidi Sahib [br]conversation is very rational, 0:00:58.355,0:01:00.595 logical, enlightened and intellectual. 0:01:00.867,0:01:04.867 So, even your paradigm answers [br]these modern suspicion or doubt 0:01:04.867,0:01:07.957 by way of intellectual and logical [br]arguments. 0:01:08.273,0:01:10.733 Then what about simple, inherent [br]arguments given by the Quran 0:01:10.733,0:01:11.819 as you often say? 0:01:12.434,0:01:15.344 [Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Don't you consider [br]the inherent arguments given 0:01:15.344,0:01:16.580 by the Quran as logical? 0:01:17.340,0:01:24.594 What I had earlier mentioned was that,[br]things that evolve from a specific 0:01:24.594,0:01:27.144 philosophical or logical background. 0:01:27.144,0:01:33.324 People present these questions just to have[br]a sense of enjoyment from the religion. 0:01:33.945,0:01:41.475 These are the things that clearly convey [br]that your addressee does not have the 0:01:41.475,0:01:47.865 perceptive, attitude, or an acumen of [br]interest to understand or 0:01:47.865,0:01:52.560 dive into something of this imperative [br]nature. 0:01:52.560,0:01:56.178 In that case you should try to ignore or [br]neglect that uninterested audience. (?) 0:01:56.178,0:01:57.628 Arguments will be have there own [br]significance. 0:01:57.628,0:02:00.178 The Quran itself is an example of [br]reasoning, 0:02:00.512,0:02:02.152 But what sort of reasoning? 0:02:03.360,0:02:05.539 I had explained that argumentation only. 0:02:05.999,0:02:09.119 I have often presented this reasoning, 0:02:09.564,0:02:14.339 Infact, I have penned it down [br]in my book Meezan. 0:02:15.115,0:02:18.995 If you read the topic of [br]"Believe in Allah" in my book, Meezan. 0:02:19.204,0:02:22.154 I have explained in detail that how 0:02:22.154,0:02:25.164 God has presented arguments [br]on his own essence. 0:02:25.918,0:02:29.528 That is the argumentation that I term [br]as Fitri "simple" reasoning. 0:02:30.167,0:02:33.487 The argumentation that is based on the[br]intellect of common people. 0:02:34.690,0:02:39.279 Its evident that when we focus our [br]attention towards God, and say that 0:02:39.279,0:02:43.279 look around the world, try to comprehend [br]what is around you, 0:02:43.279,0:02:47.279 try to look at your own existence and[br]understand how God has bestowed 0:02:47.279,0:02:51.879 different abilities and wisdom to [br]different creatures in the universe. 0:02:52.201,0:02:54.243 So, are they only trying to find reasons? 0:02:54.459,0:02:57.939 I was actually trying to explain the way [br]of reasoning. 0:02:58.533,0:03:02.533 I have never said that you should[br]accept the religious cases 0:03:02.533,0:03:03.973 without proper reasoning. 0:03:04.920,0:03:08.920 Rather, I was trying to throw light on [br]how the Quran educates us 0:03:08.920,0:03:11.692 to find logic in the religion and [br]religious affairs. 0:03:12.595,0:03:17.435 There are two types of things: the [br]first one is the knowledge that is 0:03:17.435,0:03:23.411 limited to our own understanding, and [br]the discussion of argument is either 0:03:23.411,0:03:27.411 based on either observation or experience. 0:03:28.399,0:03:32.399 In fact this way of argumentation[br]is also adopted in the religion. 0:03:32.761,0:03:36.999 For instance, there are few things that [br]have been prohibited in the religion. 0:03:37.270,0:03:41.360 Why these things are prohibited in the [br]religion? 0:03:41.360,0:03:42.746 What is the basis of it? 0:03:42.967,0:03:45.756 If you can base your argument on [br]why certain things are prohibited 0:03:45.756,0:03:47.866 in the religion on experience or [br]observation then you can do that. 0:03:48.268,0:03:53.796 Certain things are related to the world [br]that is hidden from us and 0:03:53.796,0:03:59.480 we cannot see it, or else we cannot [br]observe or experience it. 0:03:59.998,0:04:02.768 Similarly, same is the case with the being[br]of God. 0:04:02.957,0:04:07.627 Although, it is not possible the God can [br]be shown or else you can 0:04:07.627,0:04:10.697 be called up into the heavens to observe [br]God or his being. 0:04:10.697,0:04:13.307 So, here in this case we can make [br]logical conclusions. 0:04:13.565,0:04:16.975 How does the Quran educate us as [br]to how we can make 0:04:16.975,0:04:19.225 a deductive inference in relation to God? 0:04:19.512,0:04:22.872 The methods employed by our eminent [br]Scholars and the experts of logic 0:04:22.872,0:04:26.872 do not relate to what has been [br]mentioned in the Quran. 0:04:26.872,0:04:30.872 Of course I was not having a detailed [br]discussion at that point in time, 0:04:30.872,0:04:33.832 you had asked me a question and I was [br]answering that. 0:04:33.832,0:04:37.832 In reality, ancient philosophy paved the[br]way for discussions and 0:04:37.832,0:04:39.502 assumptions in this matter. 0:04:39.869,0:04:44.650 If you pay attention, modern [br]science has rejected all of it. 0:04:45.471,0:04:49.251 These things were neither based[br]on experience nor observation, 0:04:49.251,0:04:51.211 then what was the basis of [br]these things. 0:04:51.483,0:04:54.633 For instance, look at the philosophy of[br]idealism by Plato, 0:04:54.991,0:04:58.201 even Aristotle denied it immediately[br]after him. 0:04:58.201,0:05:01.311 And he clarified that in the philosophy [br]of idealism, 0:05:01.311,0:05:03.521 ideas or mental images are considered at[br]par with reality. 0:05:03.521,0:05:08.821 If we try to culminate all the [br]philosophies of metaphysics in one word, 0:05:08.821,0:05:10.141 then this is it (((?))). 0:05:10.141,0:05:15.211 In the philosophy of idealism, majorly [br]mental state or circumstances are 0:05:15.211,0:05:16.591 considered as real. 0:05:16.944,0:05:20.944 And there has been such a logical[br]connection among the mental state 0:05:20.944,0:05:26.304 and the reality which corresponds to that[br]of a fictional author. 0:05:26.831,0:05:28.301 What does he do? 0:05:28.505,0:05:33.888 He creates the plot, circumstances out of[br]his own intellectual imagination and 0:05:33.888,0:05:37.888 also tries to visualize the characters [br]from his mental images and creates 0:05:37.888,0:05:45.268 such a mutual relationship that while[br]we read a novel or a story we feel 0:05:45.268,0:05:49.218 like we are living a real world and [br]all the characters in it are real. 0:05:49.218,0:05:53.218 Therefore, the philosophy of metaphysics[br]which was even adopted by the masters 0:05:53.218,0:05:59.228 of Sufism was based on these fancy [br]imaginative interpretations. 0:05:59.228,0:06:01.008 [Ilyas] Please elaborate about takhayul [br](imagination)? 0:06:01.008,0:06:04.748 [Ghamidi] Those things that do that[br]encompass your experience or observation, 0:06:04.748,0:06:06.608 it is an imaginative world that you create[br]on your own. 0:06:06.608,0:06:08.604 All of poetry is based on Takhayul [br](imagination). 0:06:08.604,0:06:11.585 Imagination has its own beauty, but[br]for poetry. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Not for the discovery of facts and [br]reality. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So, when this method was adopted then[br]these sort of logical questions were also 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 included in it, i.e. to measure the [br]divinity of God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 To reproach the knowledge of God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 To connect the existence of God[br]in retain to space and time. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I have quite often tried to throw some[br]light and make people pay attention 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to these sort of things. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "Ayaz Qadr-e-Khud Ba-Shanas" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The Quran has taught us a great lesson, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 When people started to raise questions[br]on a very serious issue then the Quran 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 gave a response to it in a conflux. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 wama uteetum minal-ilmi illa qaleela 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 i.e religion never proclaims that[br]"come we will show you God" 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You would experience the divinity[br]of God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Or else come to us and we have the [br]capability to let you observe 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some of the attributes of Allah in [br]the heavens. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We can inscribe the existence of God[br]by way of a sketch in front of you. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 None of this is real, rather the Quran[br]clearly states that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Neither is none that can be compared [br]with Allah, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And if there is none like him,[br]Laysa kamithlihi shay'uw, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then how can you employ the[br]concept of similitude? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And without presumption and similitude,[br]how can you define something which 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 can neither be experienced or[br]observed? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Therefore, the Quran has guided us that[br]a person should be taught from a point 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 wherein he has developed the innate[br]qualities of thinking about God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Like his existence, creatures, [br]existence of wisdom in the creatures, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 manifestation of nature,[br]manifestation of divinity, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 manifestation of mercy in them. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 When a person tries to see this [br]world, the more he dives into it, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the sooner he accepts that there must[br]be a creator of this universe. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is pertinent to mention that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "It does not mean that, there is [br]a creator" but there should be creator. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Only after that the call of the[br]Prophets make sense to him. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 After that he comes to know about [br]the inception, power, knowledge 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of Allah, as there is no other [br]intellectual method for it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Prophets educate and introduce us in this[br]regard. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I had earlier explained that we[br]must adopt this method, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I tend to find reasons behind everything,[br]but what is the procedure for it? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is similar to the fact that people[br]used to argue that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how can revelations be supported by[br]arguments. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 How can it be? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A Prophet has an experience. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 God tried to establish a connect with [br]a person, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 by appointing someone to develop[br]that relation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The way something becomes an observation[br]for us, likewise many verses are 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 an act of observation for him. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Which among the aforementioned things are[br]ever shown to us by the Prophet? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 None! 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Then what do we see? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We listen to the voice and speech of[br]the Prophet. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We look at the character of the Prophet. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We listen and observe the instructions[br]about the religion from the Prophet. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And after analyzing the extraordinary [br]character, personality and knowledge 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of the Prophet, it becomes evident and[br]difficult to deny that he can be no other 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 than someone speaking for God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And when this thing is established[br]then, Rohe awaz e payambar mojziha ast 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and only after that he brings [br]the instructions of God to people. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And proclaims that he receives revelations[br]from God, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 he claims to have seen the angels. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 None of this requires a valid or logical [br]argument for its justification. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 However, this simple narration is [br]explained to all, that when God 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 appoints his Prophet and declares that[br]he is the creator of this world. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Then whatever instruction God would give,[br]they would not be beyond his power. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If he created me, and thousands like me, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 God even claims to have created djinns[br]and Angels. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 God talks about the capabilities bestowed[br]upon his angels. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 God talks about the way he created djinn. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What the reason to not accept this? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But, if in this case we try to apply the [br]logical argumentation to prove the genie, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 then it would be wrong method employed. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Unfortunately, in our traditions these [br]methods were adopted in order to 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 restrain the speaker by asking questions [br]based on logical argumentation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That is the reason all this become [br]meaningless and spiritless in the history. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You can't find anything of this sort now,[br]otherwise it should been a part of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 discussion, having a status of [br]factual reality. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What is still in practice? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The innate argument of the Quran. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It makes you think about your [br]internal values, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it helps you with the explanation[br]of submission to God. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Its says that if the remembrance of the [br]Quran is absorbed in you, but its signs 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 could have been found in your existence. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And the Quran guide you to walk through [br]these signs, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 introduces the creators creatures, [br]likewise with the the universe. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you look in the Quran. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The Quran presents a beautiful model of[br]every thing by way of deductive logic 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and/or intellectual argumentation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This aforementioned argumentation is [br]sensual, deductive as well as a part of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 personal argument, when the Prophet [br]manifests his Prophet hood. ((?)) 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is the argument that I have explained[br]in great detail and I have even enumerated 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this argument in my book Meezan. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Where in my speech or in my book,[br]have I detailed out anything of this sort 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in sync with what the scholars of [br]religion say. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Did I ever say anything like, [br]If God can lie or not? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [Ilyas] Thank You Ghamidi Sahab. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You have beautifully detailed out[br]your point of view. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In the last few seconds, I want you to[br]please comment on this as a whole. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In our society when some of our modern [br]intellectuals and philosophers adopted 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this interpretation. Many religious [br]scholars rejects their interpretation 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if it dint appear to be in sync with their[br]logical understanding. For instance, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Djin, Heaven and hell, like we discussed [br]the works of Sir Syed, and others. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Is it the same reason that they just have[br]a scope of one possibility, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 There is no room for any other [br]interpretation, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and therefore they reject it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 [Ghamidi] Exactly, this is the case. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The Quran has made it amply clear as to[br]how to know the limits of your knowledge, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to what degree one can rely on [br]deductive logic. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 To what extend you have to pay attention[br]towards your inner self and find 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 the innate level of science that existed [br]within you. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And to find the place where the Prophets [br]would guide you further. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Each of these aforementioned situations[br]have a level of intellectual argument 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and when this argument is ascertained[br]only then you enter the world of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 observation and experience. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This is matter of method,[br]which method is to be employed? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The method of argumentation mentioned [br]in the Quran must be adopted. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This method was adopted by Maulana [br]Ameen Ahsan Islahi in his books, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 like in Haqeeqat-e-Shirk, [br]Haqeeqat-e-Tawheed. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 This method was adopted in the [br]deliberation of the Quran. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We can find a lot of examples of these [br]adopted methods, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in the works of knowledgeable people. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I have also adopted the same method. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is a way to heal your heart. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It becomes a message from God for [br]the existence of humanity. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The Quran has taught us this method. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Therefore, I have tired to focus your[br]attention on the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 way of arguments based on the Quran. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Why would I not emphasis on the [br]arguments that are backed by the Quran. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I keep on saying that Quran is [br]complete and satisfactory 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 for all its cases. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We need not to focus our attention[br]towards anything else.