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The contributions and influence of
Asma Jehangir.

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[Hassan Ilyas] First of all I would like
to know your impressions about

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a woman who is the pride of our nation

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a defender of freedom of thoughts
and of human rights

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she struggled her entire life

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fighting for justice

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in the same way securing the rights
of people to express their opinions

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Ms. Asma Jahangir Sahiba

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I would also like to say 
this in the beginning that

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usually we have seen that religious people

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who are interested in scholarly 
knowledge, thought and Deen

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they do not remember and appreciate
such personalities very much

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such personalities come
and leave this world

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she is usually criticized for
being a free thinking woman

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however, I want to ask you that
the services of Asma Jahangir

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how do you view her thoughts and efforts
in an constricted society like Pakistan's

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and it was her death anniversary as well

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if you can share your thoughts about her

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[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] This attitude 
which you have pointed out

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is unfortunately present in both groups

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that is, religious people 
overlook this aspect that

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among the followers of
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

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or those who are related to him
by faith

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or those who call themselves Muslims

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not all of them carry
the same point of view

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a lot of things have changed

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ways of thinking have changed

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the way religious people 
themselves have explained Deen

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people's reaction to it is different

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new ideas and new thoughts have also
influenced many people's minds

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but they are our brothers

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and they our own people

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individuals of our community

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if they have carried out
any service for humanity

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for the country

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for the nation

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then instead of skirting dialogue with
them on the issues of Deen and religion

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or expressing our disagreements

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we must recognize these services of theirs

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so this is a shortcoming of 
religious people as well

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and in our society the classes
which call themselves liberal

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they too in the matters of religious
people face a similar situation

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that is, such people who have not
only made sacrifices for noble values

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who have played a great role in politics

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but their background was religious

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or they were religious scholars

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or they were people who were
interested in matters of religion

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to view them with respect to their 
overall personality

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this class is also hesitant
to view them as such

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due to this reason it is
a very important thing

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and one should certainly
draw attention to this

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that we must keep
all our relationships alive

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one relationship takes birth 
from our home, our family, our community

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if you look at Quran-e-Majeed

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then how far it has taken
that relationship or its honor

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it says that your biggest
relationship is with your parents

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if they force you on any occasion
that you must hold a partner to Allah

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which is the biggest crime

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so you won't obey them but you should 
not lack in good treatment towards them

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this means that the relationship
which was initiated

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due to birth or descent

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respect for that relationship 
in spite of this

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where not only are they committing shirk

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but they are also inciting
you to commit shirk

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even then in the matter of familial and
social dealings and good manners,

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you must not be lacking

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this has been told; it means that the way
in which this relationship is unshakeable

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in the same way your relationship
with your people, your nation

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or the relationship
with collective humanity

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when you will look at the world and 
people around you with this broad mind

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there will be disagreements

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disagreements cannot end

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there are so many disagreements

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in interpretations among
religious people themselves

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that is, for the same matter sometimes
you get three or five interpretations

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the same situation occurs between
people of the same school of thought

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you can gather many schools of thought
under the name ahl-e-sunnat

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you can gather many under
the head of ahl-e-tashayyu

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you can put many under
the name ahl-e-hadis

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so you will get to know that among 
the followers of the same path

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the kind of disagreements in some academic
and some practical matters which they have

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it is the same kind of situation with
those who present themselves as Muslims

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but who disagree with you
and me on religious matters

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because this situation
is an actual reality

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so what can be the right attitude to this?

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the right attitude would be this

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that those matters in which we disagree

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we should express our disagreement
with politeness and respect

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never shut the door for dialogue on it

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if you have to say something then say it 
with the same politeness and respect

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make effort to change the mind 
and thought of people

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even if there is any anxiety
about Islam and its teachings

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then make effort to clear it away

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that is a separate task of ours

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but as long as there is no such change

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then can we overlook people's services

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their personality and the 
values that they lived for

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can we overlook them meanwhile?

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so if you pay attention to our society

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then the way in which

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in personal lives

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in individual matters

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sometimes people have
many extraordinary talents

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you can find those talents in people
from every school of thought

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but there would be many other matters
in which you would feel

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that this is not the right point of view

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this is not the right attitude

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similarly in political matters

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I have said this many times before

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that four things hold extraordinary status

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if the present times have
given us any gift

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then it is these four things
in political matters

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one is this

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that a trust has taken birth in this world
and it has achieved great significance

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that the governments should run states
on the foundations of democracy

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this is a great event in human history

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that is, you can look at it from any angle
but there was no other way prior to this

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that people must establish their
rule with the force of sword

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and capture people and nations
through conquests

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and after that nothing apart
from despotism remained

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and suppose that they
chose a peaceful way

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that way would have been of monarchy

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so the institutions that 
were built for democracy

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the way in which different
constitutions were being made

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the way in which a people's covenant

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came to life as a reality

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so this opened the path for us

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to establish governments on
the basis of people's opinion

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in the same way the right of people
to self-determination

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this change came into the world after 1928

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that is, it hasn't been a long time

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even a hundred years
have not been completed

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otherwise, prior to this it used 
to be believed in the world that

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if I had the strength and
if I conquer any place

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then it is my rightful government

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but now this has been accepted that

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neither the governments
based on conquests are lawful

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and nor can you violate the right to
self-determination of a region

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if there is any ethnic community or people
in a region and they have a land as well

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and they believe that they
should have their own government

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so this is their national right and
you will have to accept it

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the same is the case with
fundamental human rights

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that is, people have had some abstract
sense of fundamental human rights

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but it is a great achievement
of present times

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that the thing which 
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said

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on the occasion of sermon during
his farewell Hajj,

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it has been transformed into the charter
of fundamental human rights

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at a worldwide level

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it is obvious that we can trace a relation
between the kernel of the Prophetic saying

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and the details that exist today 
in world order

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there can be disagreements on
some things in this as well

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that the rights which were
constituted by Allah's messenger

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have been transgressed by
men on some places

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nevertheless, it is a big contribution

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now you see that those 
fundamental human rights

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are present in every
constitution of the world

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arrangements are made for their protection

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the lawcourts do not give any 
decision that goes against them

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if such a law is made then it can
be repealed on the basis of that

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it is not that perfection has been
achieved

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but its foundation has been
laid on a large scale

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so this is not an ordinary thing

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if you look at it closely then
you will get to know that

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a great transformation has
occurred in this world

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in which the rights even of a common man 
has gained this significance

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and what is the last thing?

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the rule of law

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that is, it is no longer a thing that you
are a king and whatever you say

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will become law

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there should be a process
for the formation of law

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and that command which would
be brought into force by any authority

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it should come through due 
legislative proceedings

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only then it is justified

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Asma Jahangir Sahiba was incredibly 
attuned to these four fundamental values

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her services to our society in
this matter are extraordinary

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great courage and boldness in 
the matters of justice

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and with utmost honesty she 
used to talk on these matters

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and she used to talk such

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that when rest of the
people kept mum

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she used to be the only one speaking

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that is, it used to seem like

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that Allah ta'la has made this 
woman as if from lightning

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and those people with whom
she strongly disagreed

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even if they faced any adversity

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it used to be she who
raised her voice for them

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that is, you can guess that the kind 
of terror that was unleashed in our nation

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and the way in which
different groups killed people

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and on the streets and markets

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they did not have any consideration for
children, woman or anyone

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so the kinds of emotions that people
had against that

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but when against those people

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that is, when our army carried out 
operation against those terrorists

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and in that it came to light that there
have been violation of human rights

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so she, who had in a way
did jihad on this matter

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she had a particular viewpoint, and the
way she fiercely opposed the terrorists

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but on that occasion she was 
the only one to raise her voice

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and she said that you 
do not have this right

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though they were the enemies of humanity

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but even you cannot
violate their human rights

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this is not the job of armies

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that they take such steps in
their passion for revenge

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so you can guess from this
her courage, strength and integrity

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the commitment one should have
to one's path or point of view

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the extent to which she had these
qualities

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and how she was a great torchbearer
of these political values

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therefore, in my view in spite of you or
me disagreeing with any of her views

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all of us must salute her greatness

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[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Sir 
please also tell us

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our society is generally
under the impression

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that in this ideological struggle

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a person conducts a press conference

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or releases a critical dossier

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or walks with a placard
or banner on Mall Road

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"so how does this bring change?"

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I would like to ask you

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she passed away and yesterday 
was her death anniversary

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a gathering was also arranged

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in entire Pakistan those voices which
could not speak up anywhere else

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but they knew that it was the occasion of
Asma Jahangir Sahiba's death anniversary

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so people said whatever they
had in their hearts openly

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so do you think that an individual, an 
unarmed woman if she wants then

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she can change the course of a 
society's vision or give it a new turn

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[Ghamidi] There is no doubt in this

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you can see that sometimes 
the history of the world

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has been changed by individual voices

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I have always acknowledged that
those who pick up guns and swords

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they have always only created
discord in the world

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even if they pick them up for a good cause

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then the world does not get anything
apart from discord and suffering

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but those people who struggle
against oppression in this way

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without arms and always with arguments

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they strive to put their thought
across through their speech

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only they succeed
gradually and effectively

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this is not visible during that stage
because man is hasty

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so they do not realize that how 
the effects reach to the bottom

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and what strength they give to people

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what changes it brings
in their consciousness

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and how do they affect 
their way of thinking

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it is a very gradual process

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for this in my view the transformation
that has taken place in the West

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after all, a transformation did
take place there, right?

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there was monarchy

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there was papacy as well

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if you start reading the history
from the time of Holy Roman Empire

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then you can guess what was the situation

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in spite all of this there are thinkers

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there are great philosophers and leaders

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in the same way there are some people with
such dervish-like attitude

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who have gradually brought that change

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that after which the way I have
mentioned all these four things

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they became universal political values

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that is, today in the matter of nations

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these very values operate as the standard

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you say that the condition
of human rights is not good somewhere

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you say that there is no
rule of law in that nation

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in fact anyone can do whatever 
they want with anyone else

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so these are the standards according
to which nations are judged

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how much restraint do the ones who 
are judging enforce is a different matter

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but at an intellectual level these
standards have been set

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and on their basis nations are build

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constitutions are made

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converstations take place

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and in the same way gradually
it becomes very difficult

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for tyranny to rise again in a very
open and naked way

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you see that in our nation this dilemma
has been there from the very first day

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and it is that our establishment does not
want any democratic government there

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however, it has to also come and go

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and it has to also work behind
some curtains and veils

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why does this happen?

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we have gone far ahead of
other nations in this matter

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as you said it is very constricted

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in spite of this constriction there
is also much freedom

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and if you compare it
with other nations

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you cannot even imagine

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(I'm talking of other Muslim nations)

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you can go look at the Arab states

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you can spend some time
in the Gulf nations

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in the same way I have spent
ten years in Malaysia

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in our nation there is greater
opportunity for freedom

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freedom of expression and democratic 
thought in comparison to these nations

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00:15:44,266 --> 00:15:45,962
who has given rise
to these opportunities?

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in actual it is due to these people

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00:15:47,922 --> 00:15:50,178
someone has done it
in the field of knowledge

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00:15:50,178 --> 00:15:52,098
someone has done it
in the field of religion

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00:15:52,167 --> 00:15:55,584
in the same way someone
has achieved it in the field of politics

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00:15:55,584 --> 00:15:59,765
so it is these people due
to whom you see that

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those people who
have the power of guns

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they have to hide behind a thousand
curtains in order to rule

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and this is that very intellectual power

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which gives me the hope that
one day it will change the scenario

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and we will get to see a free
democratic government in our nation

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[Hassan] Inshallah Ghamidi Saab

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it was about the life of Asma
Jahangir Sahiba's life

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00:16:21,868 --> 00:16:25,165
we got to know your point of view
about her services to our society

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May Allah ta'la grant her salvation