The contributions and influence of Asma Jehangir.
[Hassan Ilyas] First of all I would like to know your impressions about
a woman who is the pride of our nation
a defender of freedom of thoughts and of human rights
she struggled her entire life
fighting for justice
in the same way securing the rights of people to express their opinions
Ms. Asma Jahangir Sahiba
I would also like to say this in the beginning that
usually we have seen that religious people
who are interested in scholarly knowledge, thought and Deen
they do not remember and appreciate such personalities very much
such personalities come and leave this world
she is usually criticized for being a free thinking woman
however, I want to ask you that the services of Asma Jahangir
how do you view her thoughts and efforts in an constricted society like Pakistan's
and it was her death anniversary as well
if you can share your thoughts about her
[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] This attitude which you have pointed out
is unfortunately present in both groups
that is, religious people overlook this aspect that
among the followers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
or those who are related to him by faith
or those who call themselves Muslims
not all of them carry the same point of view
a lot of things have changed
ways of thinking have changed
the way religious people themselves have explained Deen
people's reaction to it is different
new ideas and new thoughts have also influenced many people's minds
but they are our brothers
and they our own people
individuals of our community
if they have carried out any service for humanity
for the country
for the nation
then instead of skirting dialogue with them on the issues of Deen and religion
or expressing our disagreements
we must recognize these services of theirs
so this is a shortcoming of religious people as well
and in our society the classes which call themselves liberal
they too in the matters of religious people face a similar situation
that is, such people who have not only made sacrifices for noble values
who have played a great role in politics
but their background was religious
or they were religious scholars
or they were people who were interested in matters of religion
to view them with respect to their overall personality
this class is also hesitant to view them as such
due to this reason it is a very important thing
and one should certainly draw attention to this
that we must keep all our relationships alive
one relationship takes birth from our home, our family, our community
if you look at Quran-e-Majeed
then how far it has taken that relationship or its honor
it says that your biggest relationship is with your parents
if they force you on any occasion that you must hold a partner to Allah
which is the biggest crime
so you won't obey them but you should not lack in good treatment towards them
this means that the relationship which was initiated
due to birth or descent
respect for that relationship in spite of this
where not only are they committing shirk
but they are also inciting you to commit shirk
even then in the matter of familial and social dealings and good manners,
you must not be lacking
this has been told; it means that the way in which this relationship is unshakeable
in the same way your relationship with your people, your nation
or the relationship with collective humanity
when you will look at the world and people around you with this broad mind
there will be disagreements
disagreements cannot end
there are so many disagreements
in interpretations among religious people themselves
that is, for the same matter sometimes you get three or five interpretations
the same situation occurs between people of the same school of thought
you can gather many schools of thought under the name ahl-e-sunnat
you can gather many under the head of ahl-e-tashayyu
you can put many under the name ahl-e-hadis
so you will get to know that among the followers of the same path
the kind of disagreements in some academic and some practical matters which they have
it is the same kind of situation with those who present themselves as Muslims
but who disagree with you and me on religious matters
because this situation is an actual reality
so what can be the right attitude to this?
the right attitude would be this
that those matters in which we disagree
we should express our disagreement with politeness and respect
never shut the door for dialogue on it
if you have to say something then say it with the same politeness and respect
make effort to change the mind and thought of people
even if there is any anxiety about Islam and its teachings
then make effort to clear it away
that is a separate task of ours
but as long as there is no such change
then can we overlook people's services
their personality and the values that they lived for
can we overlook them meanwhile?
so if you pay attention to our society
then the way in which
in personal lives
in individual matters
sometimes people have many extraordinary talents
you can find those talents in people from every school of thought
but there would be many other matters in which you would feel
that this is not the right point of view
this is not the right attitude
similarly in political matters
I have said this many times before
that four things hold extraordinary status
if the present times have given us any gift
then it is these four things in political matters
one is this
that a trust has taken birth in this world and it has achieved great significance
that the governments should run states on the foundations of democracy
this is a great event in human history
that is, you can look at it from any angle but there was no other way prior to this
that people must establish their rule with the force of sword
and capture people and nations through conquests
and after that nothing apart from despotism remained
and suppose that they chose a peaceful way
that way would have been of monarchy
so the institutions that were built for democracy
the way in which different constitutions were being made
the way in which a people's covenant
came to life as a reality
so this opened the path for us
to establish governments on the basis of people's opinion
in the same way the right of people to self-determination
this change came into the world after 1928
that is, it hasn't been a long time
even a hundred years have not been completed
otherwise, prior to this it used to be believed in the world that
if I had the strength and if I conquer any place
then it is my rightful government
but now this has been accepted that
neither the governments based on conquests are lawful
and nor can you violate the right to self-determination of a region
if there is any ethnic community or people in a region and they have a land as well
and they believe that they should have their own government
so this is their national right and you will have to accept it
the same is the case with fundamental human rights
that is, people have had some abstract sense of fundamental human rights
but it is a great achievement of present times
that the thing which Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said
on the occasion of sermon during his farewell Hajj,
it has been transformed into the charter of fundamental human rights
at a worldwide level
it is obvious that we can trace a relation between the kernel of the Prophetic saying
and the details that exist today in world order
there can be disagreements on some things in this as well
that the rights which were constituted by Allah's messenger
have been transgressed by men on some places
nevertheless, it is a big contribution
now you see that those fundamental human rights
are present in every constitution of the world
arrangements are made for their protection
the lawcourts do not give any decision that goes against them
if such a law is made then it can be repealed on the basis of that
it is not that perfection has been achieved
but its foundation has been laid on a large scale
so this is not an ordinary thing
if you look at it closely then you will get to know that
a great transformation has occurred in this world
in which the rights even of a common man has gained this significance
and what is the last thing?
the rule of law
that is, it is no longer a thing that you are a king and whatever you say
will become law
there should be a process for the formation of law
and that command which would be brought into force by any authority
it should come through due legislative proceedings
only then it is justified
Asma Jahangir Sahiba was incredibly attuned to these four fundamental values
her services to our society in this matter are extraordinary
great courage and boldness in the matters of justice
and with utmost honesty she used to talk on these matters
and she used to talk such
that when rest of the people kept mum
she used to be the only one speaking
that is, it used to seem like
that Allah ta'la has made this woman as if from lightning
and those people with whom she strongly disagreed
even if they faced any adversity
it used to be she who raised her voice for them
that is, you can guess that the kind of terror that was unleashed in our nation
and the way in which different groups killed people
and on the streets and markets
they did not have any consideration for children, woman or anyone
so the kinds of emotions that people had against that
but when against those people
that is, when our army carried out operation against those terrorists
and in that it came to light that there have been violation of human rights
so she, who had in a way did jihad on this matter
she had a particular viewpoint, and the way she fiercely opposed the terrorists
but on that occasion she was the only one to raise her voice
and she said that you do not have this right
though they were the enemies of humanity
but even you cannot violate their human rights
this is not the job of armies
that they take such steps in their passion for revenge
so you can guess from this her courage, strength and integrity
the commitment one should have to one's path or point of view
the extent to which she had these qualities
and how she was a great torchbearer of these political values
therefore, in my view in spite of you or me disagreeing with any of her views
all of us must salute her greatness
[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Sir please also tell us
our society is generally under the impression
that in this ideological struggle
a person conducts a press conference
or releases a critical dossier
or walks with a placard or banner on Mall Road
"so how does this bring change?"
I would like to ask you
she passed away and yesterday was her death anniversary
a gathering was also arranged
in entire Pakistan those voices which could not speak up anywhere else
but they knew that it was the occasion of Asma Jahangir Sahiba's death anniversary
so people said whatever they had in their hearts openly
so do you think that an individual, an unarmed woman if she wants then
she can change the course of a society's vision or give it a new turn
[Ghamidi] There is no doubt in this
you can see that sometimes the history of the world
has been changed by individual voices
I have always acknowledged that those who pick up guns and swords
they have always only created discord in the world
even if they pick them up for a good cause
then the world does not get anything apart from discord and suffering
but those people who struggle against oppression in this way
without arms and always with arguments
they strive to put their thought across through their speech
only they succeed gradually and effectively
this is not visible during that stage because man is hasty
so they do not realize that how the effects reach to the bottom
and what strength they give to people
what changes it brings in their consciousness
and how do they affect their way of thinking
it is a very gradual process
for this in my view the transformation that has taken place in the West
after all, a transformation did take place there, right?
there was monarchy
there was papacy as well
if you start reading the history from the time of Holy Roman Empire
then you can guess what was the situation
in spite all of this there are thinkers
there are great philosophers and leaders
in the same way there are some people with such dervish-like attitude
who have gradually brought that change
that after which the way I have mentioned all these four things
they became universal political values
that is, today in the matter of nations
these very values operate as the standard
you say that the condition of human rights is not good somewhere
you say that there is no rule of law in that nation
in fact anyone can do whatever they want with anyone else
so these are the standards according to which nations are judged
how much restraint do the ones who are judging enforce is a different matter
but at an intellectual level these standards have been set
and on their basis nations are build
constitutions are made
converstations take place
and in the same way gradually it becomes very difficult
for tyranny to rise again in a very open and naked way
you see that in our nation this dilemma has been there from the very first day
and it is that our establishment does not want any democratic government there
however, it has to also come and go
and it has to also work behind some curtains and veils
why does this happen?
we have gone far ahead of other nations in this matter
as you said it is very constricted
in spite of this constriction there is also much freedom
and if you compare it with other nations
you cannot even imagine
(I'm talking of other Muslim nations)
you can go look at the Arab states
you can spend some time in the Gulf nations
in the same way I have spent ten years in Malaysia
in our nation there is greater opportunity for freedom
freedom of expression and democratic thought in comparison to these nations
who has given rise to these opportunities?
in actual it is due to these people
someone has done it in the field of knowledge
someone has done it in the field of religion
in the same way someone has achieved it in the field of politics
so it is these people due to whom you see that
those people who have the power of guns
they have to hide behind a thousand curtains in order to rule
and this is that very intellectual power
which gives me the hope that one day it will change the scenario
and we will get to see a free democratic government in our nation
[Hassan] Inshallah Ghamidi Saab
it was about the life of Asma Jahangir Sahiba's life
we got to know your point of view about her services to our society
May Allah ta'la grant her salvation