0:00:01.524,0:00:04.814 The contributions and influence of[br]Asma Jehangir. 0:00:04.814,0:00:08.614 [Hassan Ilyas] First of all I would like[br]to know your impressions about 0:00:08.699,0:00:10.772 a woman who is the pride of our nation 0:00:10.898,0:00:14.768 a defender of freedom of thoughts[br]and of human rights 0:00:14.768,0:00:17.298 she struggled her entire life 0:00:17.399,0:00:18.659 fighting for justice 0:00:18.659,0:00:23.469 in the same way securing the rights[br]of people to express their opinions 0:00:23.803,0:00:25.611 Ms. Asma Jahangir Sahiba 0:00:25.901,0:00:28.710 I would also like to say [br]this in the beginning that 0:00:28.710,0:00:30.633 usually we have seen that religious people 0:00:30.633,0:00:33.601 who are interested in scholarly [br]knowledge, thought and Deen 0:00:33.888,0:00:37.606 they do not remember and appreciate[br]such personalities very much 0:00:38.148,0:00:39.924 such personalities come[br]and leave this world 0:00:40.190,0:00:44.190 she is usually criticized for[br]being a free thinking woman 0:00:44.655,0:00:48.146 however, I want to ask you that[br]the services of Asma Jahangir 0:00:48.647,0:00:54.860 how do you view her thoughts and efforts[br]in an constricted society like Pakistan's 0:00:54.860,0:00:57.297 and it was her death anniversary as well 0:00:57.297,0:00:59.257 if you can share your thoughts about her 0:01:00.553,0:01:03.414 [Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] This attitude [br]which you have pointed out 0:01:03.414,0:01:06.571 is unfortunately present in both groups 0:01:07.632,0:01:12.262 that is, religious people [br]overlook this aspect that 0:01:13.793,0:01:16.495 among the followers of[br]Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) 0:01:16.495,0:01:18.398 or those who are related to him[br]by faith 0:01:18.489,0:01:21.720 or those who call themselves Muslims 0:01:21.720,0:01:26.526 not all of them carry[br]the same point of view 0:01:27.549,0:01:29.901 a lot of things have changed 0:01:30.481,0:01:32.358 ways of thinking have changed 0:01:33.257,0:01:37.617 the way religious people [br]themselves have explained Deen 0:01:37.617,0:01:40.120 people's reaction to it is different 0:01:40.532,0:01:45.436 new ideas and new thoughts have also[br]influenced many people's minds 0:01:45.914,0:01:47.808 but they are our brothers 0:01:48.256,0:01:49.563 and they our own people 0:01:49.612,0:01:51.412 individuals of our community 0:01:52.160,0:01:56.536 if they have carried out[br]any service for humanity 0:01:56.536,0:01:58.596 for the country 0:01:58.706,0:02:00.561 for the nation 0:02:01.215,0:02:06.715 then instead of skirting dialogue with[br]them on the issues of Deen and religion 0:02:06.715,0:02:09.175 or expressing our disagreements 0:02:09.387,0:02:11.525 we must recognize these services of theirs 0:02:12.416,0:02:15.555 so this is a shortcoming of [br]religious people as well 0:02:16.114,0:02:20.114 and in our society the classes[br]which call themselves liberal 0:02:21.314,0:02:25.964 they too in the matters of religious[br]people face a similar situation 0:02:27.135,0:02:32.216 that is, such people who have not[br]only made sacrifices for noble values 0:02:32.996,0:02:35.650 who have played a great role in politics 0:02:36.360,0:02:39.160 but their background was religious 0:02:40.255,0:02:41.985 or they were religious scholars 0:02:42.602,0:02:46.602 or they were people who were[br]interested in matters of religion 0:02:47.470,0:02:51.690 to view them with respect to their [br]overall personality 0:02:51.717,0:02:55.114 this class is also hesitant[br]to view them as such 0:02:55.702,0:02:57.945 due to this reason it is[br]a very important thing 0:02:57.945,0:03:00.574 and one should certainly[br]draw attention to this 0:03:00.574,0:03:02.713 that we must keep[br]all our relationships alive 0:03:04.326,0:03:09.206 one relationship takes birth [br]from our home, our family, our community 0:03:10.294,0:03:12.365 if you look at Quran-e-Majeed 0:03:12.720,0:03:15.769 then how far it has taken[br]that relationship or its honor 0:03:16.398,0:03:20.398 it says that your biggest[br]relationship is with your parents 0:03:20.807,0:03:26.327 if they force you on any occasion[br]that you must hold a partner to Allah 0:03:26.702,0:03:28.362 which is the biggest crime 0:03:28.362,0:03:33.302 so you won't obey them but you should [br]not lack in good treatment towards them 0:03:34.811,0:03:38.811 this means that the relationship[br]which was initiated 0:03:38.811,0:03:42.811 due to birth or descent 0:03:43.893,0:03:46.543 respect for that relationship [br]in spite of this 0:03:46.543,0:03:50.543 where not only are they committing shirk 0:03:50.942,0:03:54.942 but they are also inciting[br]you to commit shirk 0:03:54.942,0:03:59.832 even then in the matter of familial and[br]social dealings and good manners, 0:03:59.832,0:04:01.632 you must not be lacking 0:04:02.159,0:04:06.159 this has been told; it means that the way[br]in which this relationship is unshakeable 0:04:06.159,0:04:10.159 in the same way your relationship[br]with your people, your nation 0:04:10.942,0:04:13.724 or the relationship[br]with collective humanity 0:04:14.502,0:04:18.952 when you will look at the world and [br]people around you with this broad mind 0:04:18.952,0:04:21.152 there will be disagreements 0:04:21.194,0:04:22.994 disagreements cannot end 0:04:23.267,0:04:24.757 there are so many disagreements 0:04:24.757,0:04:27.501 in interpretations among[br]religious people themselves 0:04:27.501,0:04:32.961 that is, for the same matter sometimes[br]you get three or five interpretations 0:04:33.104,0:04:37.104 the same situation occurs between[br]people of the same school of thought 0:04:37.639,0:04:41.639 you can gather many schools of thought[br]under the name ahl-e-sunnat 0:04:42.237,0:04:45.484 you can gather many under[br]the head of ahl-e-tashayyu 0:04:46.310,0:04:48.521 you can put many under[br]the name ahl-e-hadis 0:04:48.706,0:04:52.706 so you will get to know that among [br]the followers of the same path 0:04:53.410,0:04:57.841 the kind of disagreements in some academic[br]and some practical matters which they have 0:04:58.366,0:05:03.366 it is the same kind of situation with[br]those who present themselves as Muslims 0:05:04.103,0:05:09.019 but who disagree with you[br]and me on religious matters 0:05:10.330,0:05:13.340 because this situation[br]is an actual reality 0:05:13.613,0:05:15.450 so what can be the right attitude to this? 0:05:15.450,0:05:16.824 the right attitude would be this 0:05:16.824,0:05:19.304 that those matters in which we disagree 0:05:19.304,0:05:22.671 we should express our disagreement[br]with politeness and respect 0:05:23.607,0:05:26.440 never shut the door for dialogue on it 0:05:27.138,0:05:31.908 if you have to say something then say it [br]with the same politeness and respect 0:05:32.885,0:05:35.829 make effort to change the mind [br]and thought of people 0:05:36.276,0:05:39.706 even if there is any anxiety[br]about Islam and its teachings 0:05:39.706,0:05:41.769 then make effort to clear it away 0:05:41.769,0:05:43.796 that is a separate task of ours 0:05:43.796,0:05:47.355 but as long as there is no such change 0:05:47.355,0:05:49.841 then can we overlook people's services 0:05:49.841,0:05:53.531 their personality and the [br]values that they lived for 0:05:53.531,0:05:55.163 can we overlook them meanwhile? 0:05:55.163,0:05:57.151 so if you pay attention to our society 0:05:57.151,0:05:58.409 then the way in which 0:05:58.409,0:05:59.409 in personal lives 0:05:59.409,0:06:00.809 in individual matters 0:06:00.809,0:06:03.675 sometimes people have[br]many extraordinary talents 0:06:04.149,0:06:08.959 you can find those talents in people[br]from every school of thought 0:06:09.595,0:06:13.595 but there would be many other matters[br]in which you would feel 0:06:13.595,0:06:16.300 that this is not the right point of view 0:06:16.300,0:06:17.759 this is not the right attitude 0:06:17.759,0:06:19.257 similarly in political matters 0:06:19.778,0:06:22.228 I have said this many times before 0:06:22.316,0:06:25.296 that four things hold extraordinary status 0:06:25.556,0:06:28.884 if the present times have[br]given us any gift 0:06:28.884,0:06:31.276 then it is these four things[br]in political matters 0:06:31.829,0:06:32.739 one is this 0:06:32.739,0:06:36.739 that a trust has taken birth in this world[br]and it has achieved great significance 0:06:37.412,0:06:41.412 that the governments should run states[br]on the foundations of democracy 0:06:42.132,0:06:44.760 this is a great event in human history 0:06:45.404,0:06:51.261 that is, you can look at it from any angle[br]but there was no other way prior to this 0:06:51.718,0:06:55.341 that people must establish their[br]rule with the force of sword 0:06:55.341,0:07:00.691 and capture people and nations[br]through conquests 0:07:00.993,0:07:04.993 and after that nothing apart[br]from despotism remained 0:07:05.560,0:07:08.999 and suppose that they[br]chose a peaceful way 0:07:09.141,0:07:11.381 that way would have been of monarchy 0:07:11.504,0:07:13.871 so the institutions that [br]were built for democracy 0:07:13.871,0:07:16.562 the way in which different[br]constitutions were being made 0:07:16.967,0:07:18.950 the way in which a people's covenant 0:07:19.169,0:07:21.281 came to life as a reality 0:07:21.624,0:07:24.105 so this opened the path for us 0:07:24.105,0:07:26.789 to establish governments on[br]the basis of people's opinion 0:07:27.331,0:07:30.246 in the same way the right of people[br]to self-determination 0:07:30.945,0:07:34.251 this change came into the world after 1928 0:07:34.521,0:07:36.205 that is, it hasn't been a long time 0:07:36.205,0:07:38.485 even a hundred years[br]have not been completed 0:07:38.485,0:07:41.605 otherwise, prior to this it used [br]to be believed in the world that 0:07:41.605,0:07:45.605 if I had the strength and[br]if I conquer any place 0:07:45.605,0:07:47.181 then it is my rightful government 0:07:47.970,0:07:50.102 but now this has been accepted that 0:07:50.448,0:07:54.448 neither the governments[br]based on conquests are lawful 0:07:54.842,0:07:59.562 and nor can you violate the right to[br]self-determination of a region 0:08:00.353,0:08:05.593 if there is any ethnic community or people[br]in a region and they have a land as well 0:08:05.956,0:08:08.837 and they believe that they[br]should have their own government 0:08:09.366,0:08:13.230 so this is their national right and[br]you will have to accept it 0:08:13.405,0:08:16.388 the same is the case with[br]fundamental human rights 0:08:16.819,0:08:21.909 that is, people have had some abstract[br]sense of fundamental human rights 0:08:22.416,0:08:25.334 but it is a great achievement[br]of present times 0:08:25.334,0:08:27.900 that the thing which [br]Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said 0:08:27.900,0:08:31.650 on the occasion of sermon during[br]his farewell Hajj, 0:08:32.217,0:08:36.237 it has been transformed into the charter[br]of fundamental human rights 0:08:36.237,0:08:38.127 at a worldwide level 0:08:38.457,0:08:41.947 it is obvious that we can trace a relation[br]between the kernel of the Prophetic saying 0:08:41.947,0:08:43.597 and the details that exist today [br]in world order 0:08:43.943,0:08:47.131 there can be disagreements on[br]some things in this as well 0:08:47.131,0:08:49.986 that the rights which were[br]constituted by Allah's messenger 0:08:50.316,0:08:52.831 have been transgressed by[br]men on some places 0:08:53.100,0:08:54.707 nevertheless, it is a big contribution 0:08:55.257,0:08:57.797 now you see that those [br]fundamental human rights 0:08:57.797,0:09:00.440 are present in every[br]constitution of the world 0:09:00.422,0:09:02.752 arrangements are made for their protection 0:09:03.284,0:09:06.283 the lawcourts do not give any [br]decision that goes against them 0:09:06.283,0:09:10.314 if such a law is made then it can[br]be repealed on the basis of that 0:09:10.766,0:09:13.286 it is not that perfection has been[br]achieved 0:09:13.714,0:09:17.164 but its foundation has been[br]laid on a large scale 0:09:17.677,0:09:19.617 so this is not an ordinary thing 0:09:19.617,0:09:23.143 if you look at it closely then[br]you will get to know that 0:09:23.426,0:09:25.857 a great transformation has[br]occurred in this world 0:09:25.887,0:09:30.987 in which the rights even of a common man [br]has gained this significance 0:09:31.351,0:09:32.561 and what is the last thing? 0:09:32.561,0:09:33.549 the rule of law 0:09:33.837,0:09:37.520 that is, it is no longer a thing that you[br]are a king and whatever you say 0:09:37.520,0:09:38.487 will become law 0:09:38.487,0:09:41.912 there should be a process[br]for the formation of law 0:09:42.223,0:09:46.223 and that command which would[br]be brought into force by any authority 0:09:46.579,0:09:50.579 it should come through due [br]legislative proceedings 0:09:51.178,0:09:52.905 only then it is justified 0:09:53.125,0:09:59.885 Asma Jahangir Sahiba was incredibly [br]attuned to these four fundamental values 0:10:00.185,0:10:04.185 her services to our society in[br]this matter are extraordinary 0:10:04.828,0:10:08.828 great courage and boldness in [br]the matters of justice 0:10:09.462,0:10:13.462 and with utmost honesty she [br]used to talk on these matters 0:10:13.941,0:10:15.361 and she used to talk such 0:10:15.361,0:10:17.108 that when rest of the[br]people kept mum 0:10:17.108,0:10:19.510 she used to be the only one speaking 0:10:19.510,0:10:21.360 that is, it used to seem like 0:10:21.360,0:10:25.360 that Allah ta'la has made this [br]woman as if from lightning 0:10:25.931,0:10:29.510 and those people with whom[br]she strongly disagreed 0:10:29.510,0:10:31.930 even if they faced any adversity 0:10:32.380,0:10:35.770 it used to be she who[br]raised her voice for them 0:10:36.288,0:10:40.558 that is, you can guess that the kind [br]of terror that was unleashed in our nation 0:10:41.340,0:10:44.220 and the way in which[br]different groups killed people 0:10:44.496,0:10:46.686 and on the streets and markets 0:10:46.686,0:10:49.906 they did not have any consideration for[br]children, woman or anyone 0:10:49.906,0:10:52.370 so the kinds of emotions that people[br]had against that 0:10:52.499,0:10:54.374 but when against those people 0:10:54.374,0:10:58.374 that is, when our army carried out [br]operation against those terrorists 0:10:58.754,0:11:02.754 and in that it came to light that there[br]have been violation of human rights 0:11:03.424,0:11:08.204 so she, who had in a way[br]did jihad on this matter 0:11:08.714,0:11:14.044 she had a particular viewpoint, and the[br]way she fiercely opposed the terrorists 0:11:14.681,0:11:17.381 but on that occasion she was [br]the only one to raise her voice 0:11:17.381,0:11:19.450 and she said that you [br]do not have this right 0:11:19.450,0:11:21.587 though they were the enemies of humanity 0:11:21.587,0:11:25.587 but even you cannot[br]violate their human rights 0:11:26.241,0:11:27.762 this is not the job of armies 0:11:27.762,0:11:31.687 that they take such steps in[br]their passion for revenge 0:11:32.420,0:11:36.420 so you can guess from this[br]her courage, strength and integrity 0:11:36.401,0:11:40.401 the commitment one should have[br]to one's path or point of view 0:11:40.900,0:11:42.935 the extent to which she had these[br]qualities 0:11:43.174,0:11:46.210 and how she was a great torchbearer[br]of these political values 0:11:46.210,0:11:52.361 therefore, in my view in spite of you or[br]me disagreeing with any of her views 0:11:52.690,0:11:55.124 all of us must salute her greatness 0:11:55.320,0:11:57.489 [Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Sir [br]please also tell us 0:11:57.489,0:11:59.619 our society is generally[br]under the impression 0:11:59.619,0:12:01.500 that in this ideological struggle 0:12:01.500,0:12:03.704 a person conducts a press conference 0:12:03.964,0:12:05.714 or releases a critical dossier 0:12:05.940,0:12:09.940 or walks with a placard[br]or banner on Mall Road 0:12:10.308,0:12:12.654 "so how does this bring change?" 0:12:12.654,0:12:14.224 I would like to ask you 0:12:14.224,0:12:16.734 she passed away and yesterday [br]was her death anniversary 0:12:16.734,0:12:18.414 a gathering was also arranged 0:12:18.563,0:12:22.563 in entire Pakistan those voices which[br]could not speak up anywhere else 0:12:22.563,0:12:26.398 but they knew that it was the occasion of[br]Asma Jahangir Sahiba's death anniversary 0:12:26.398,0:12:28.893 so people said whatever they[br]had in their hearts openly 0:12:28.893,0:12:32.663 so do you think that an individual, an [br]unarmed woman if she wants then 0:12:32.663,0:12:39.563 she can change the course of a [br]society's vision or give it a new turn 0:12:39.563,0:12:41.523 [Ghamidi] There is no doubt in this 0:12:41.523,0:12:43.860 you can see that sometimes [br]the history of the world 0:12:43.860,0:12:45.770 has been changed by individual voices 0:12:46.190,0:12:51.990 I have always acknowledged that[br]those who pick up guns and swords 0:12:52.248,0:12:54.998 they have always only created[br]discord in the world 0:12:54.998,0:12:57.318 even if they pick them up for a good cause 0:12:57.318,0:13:00.643 then the world does not get anything[br]apart from discord and suffering 0:13:00.951,0:13:04.951 but those people who struggle[br]against oppression in this way 0:13:05.196,0:13:09.846 without arms and always with arguments 0:13:10.170,0:13:13.880 they strive to put their thought[br]across through their speech 0:13:14.283,0:13:16.265 only they succeed[br]gradually and effectively 0:13:16.485,0:13:20.485 this is not visible during that stage[br]because man is hasty 0:13:20.485,0:13:24.485 so they do not realize that how [br]the effects reach to the bottom 0:13:24.589,0:13:26.505 and what strength they give to people 0:13:26.505,0:13:29.227 what changes it brings[br]in their consciousness 0:13:29.227,0:13:31.858 and how do they affect [br]their way of thinking 0:13:32.911,0:13:34.900 it is a very gradual process 0:13:34.900,0:13:38.205 for this in my view the transformation[br]that has taken place in the West 0:13:38.402,0:13:40.482 after all, a transformation did[br]take place there, right? 0:13:40.874,0:13:41.924 there was monarchy 0:13:41.924,0:13:43.581 there was papacy as well 0:13:43.814,0:13:47.814 if you start reading the history[br]from the time of Holy Roman Empire 0:13:47.814,0:13:50.175 then you can guess what was the situation 0:13:50.489,0:13:52.939 in spite all of this there are thinkers 0:13:52.939,0:13:55.194 there are great philosophers and leaders 0:13:55.239,0:13:59.239 in the same way there are some people with[br]such dervish-like attitude 0:13:59.655,0:14:02.735 who have gradually brought that change 0:14:03.213,0:14:07.213 that after which the way I have[br]mentioned all these four things 0:14:07.867,0:14:10.247 they became universal political values 0:14:10.564,0:14:13.240 that is, today in the matter of nations 0:14:13.512,0:14:16.311 these very values operate as the standard 0:14:16.739,0:14:20.739 you say that the condition[br]of human rights is not good somewhere 0:14:21.176,0:14:24.201 you say that there is no[br]rule of law in that nation 0:14:24.664,0:14:28.664 in fact anyone can do whatever [br]they want with anyone else 0:14:29.152,0:14:32.373 so these are the standards according[br]to which nations are judged 0:14:33.580,0:14:36.573 how much restraint do the ones who [br]are judging enforce is a different matter 0:14:36.839,0:14:39.850 but at an intellectual level these[br]standards have been set 0:14:40.281,0:14:42.421 and on their basis nations are build 0:14:42.421,0:14:43.742 constitutions are made 0:14:43.742,0:14:45.940 converstations take place 0:14:45.940,0:14:49.344 and in the same way gradually[br]it becomes very difficult 0:14:49.344,0:14:53.344 for tyranny to rise again in a very[br]open and naked way 0:14:53.932,0:14:57.932 you see that in our nation this dilemma[br]has been there from the very first day 0:14:58.292,0:15:03.153 and it is that our establishment does not[br]want any democratic government there 0:15:03.603,0:15:07.143 however, it has to also come and go 0:15:07.714,0:15:11.495 and it has to also work behind[br]some curtains and veils 0:15:11.748,0:15:13.290 why does this happen? 0:15:13.627,0:15:16.377 we have gone far ahead of[br]other nations in this matter 0:15:16.829,0:15:18.632 as you said it is very constricted 0:15:18.708,0:15:21.395 in spite of this constriction there[br]is also much freedom 0:15:21.395,0:15:24.318 and if you compare it[br]with other nations 0:15:24.687,0:15:26.394 you cannot even imagine 0:15:26.448,0:15:28.388 (I'm talking of other Muslim nations) 0:15:28.895,0:15:30.922 you can go look at the Arab states 0:15:31.437,0:15:33.581 you can spend some time[br]in the Gulf nations 0:15:33.778,0:15:36.996 in the same way I have spent[br]ten years in Malaysia 0:15:36.996,0:15:39.526 in our nation there is greater[br]opportunity for freedom 0:15:39.526,0:15:44.266 freedom of expression and democratic [br]thought in comparison to these nations 0:15:44.266,0:15:45.962 who has given rise[br]to these opportunities? 0:15:46.242,0:15:47.922 in actual it is due to these people 0:15:47.922,0:15:50.178 someone has done it[br]in the field of knowledge 0:15:50.178,0:15:52.098 someone has done it[br]in the field of religion 0:15:52.167,0:15:55.584 in the same way someone[br]has achieved it in the field of politics 0:15:55.584,0:15:59.765 so it is these people due[br]to whom you see that 0:16:00.326,0:16:04.326 those people who[br]have the power of guns 0:16:04.326,0:16:07.403 they have to hide behind a thousand[br]curtains in order to rule 0:16:07.403,0:16:10.253 and this is that very intellectual power 0:16:10.253,0:16:14.673 which gives me the hope that[br]one day it will change the scenario 0:16:14.772,0:16:18.182 and we will get to see a free[br]democratic government in our nation 0:16:18.213,0:16:19.343 [Hassan] Inshallah Ghamidi Saab 0:16:19.343,0:16:21.868 it was about the life of Asma[br]Jahangir Sahiba's life 0:16:21.868,0:16:25.165 we got to know your point of view[br]about her services to our society 0:16:25.165,0:16:27.753 May Allah ta'la grant her salvation