WEBVTT

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Do you think this is.

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Maybe the ego shot.

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Okay.

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Welcome to Radio Eco shock this week,

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we're going to investigate attempts 
by the fossil fuel industry to

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capture otherwise green thinking ports 
in the Pacific Northwest of

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the United States and Canada 
to export carbon to Asia.

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It's a battle you hardly hear about 
citizens are lining up against

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huge corporations with huge money 
to fight off giant coal ports

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liquefied natural gas ports even 
propane ports if we commit to

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that infrastructure we commit to 
devastating climate change,

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not to mention the explosive toxic 
and polluting impacts of these

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big projects on the Pacific coast.

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It's species and its people will 
first hear from activist Kevin

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Walsh book reporting from Vancouver,

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Canada and then from green radio host 
and activist Daphne why from

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Portland,

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Oregon.

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I'll wrap up with some new science 
presented at a Harvard

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University research talk Dr. James 
Anderson presents why climate

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change is coming,

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much faster than anyone thought 
possible and why it cannot be

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reversed its eco shocking radio 
I'm Alex Smith let's roll.

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Multinational corporations would like 
to turn the gorgeous port of

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Vancouver,

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Canada into another fossil fuel colony 
after call port proposals

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were blocked by a public outcry in 
the American Pacific Northwest

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they wanted to call out to Asia 
through Vancouver there's an

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active proposal to steer dirty 
tar sands oil into hundreds of

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tankers through Vancouver's scenic 
inlets even liquid natural gas

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is trying to use Vancouver as an 
outlet we've reached activist

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Kevin wash broken Vancouver he's 
part of the group voters taking

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action on climate change or veto 
back Kevin welcome to Radio Rico

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shock.

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I think to be here.

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Let's talk about call how big 
is the export business from

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Vancouver.

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Well,

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right now we have to fully functioning 
courts one in North

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Vancouver internal with which exports 
exclusively be seen course

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in the coup these and then Wes short 
and so which is the biggest

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coal in Canada and depending on 
you know who was exporting more

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it's often the biggest of the business.

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Call for North America Neptune exports 
around you know they export

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around 6 million tons of 
call the year there,

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they're trying to expand that to larger 
large volumes sure exports

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in the order 30 to 33 million tons 
of call the year and about

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about 8 million tons of that call 
is US thermal coal from the

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Tiber River Basin.

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While so they truck at all or would 
they train at all the way up

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from Wyoming.

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I guess it is.

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It is in there.

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So it comes on Warren Buffett's 
be NSF railroad up through semi

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White Rock Crescent Beach all on 
the water through there and then

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up through around Monday and over 
2 cops who were shorter.

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Why to using American call for.

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Well,

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that's,

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that's a good question their hair.

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They were plans there were plans 
for 6 coal ports on the US West

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Coast is recently you know 
3 or 4 years ago.

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Yet,

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although 2 of those projects have 
either been completely have been

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rejected or abandoned.

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And the last 2.

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The one in Oregon on the Columbia 
River faces serious difficulties

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because it's failed to receive keep 
the last permanent through the

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last project and the largest at 
Cherry Point in Washington.

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So just south of the border.

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I'm also faces serious opposition,

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including from the Lonnie nation 
which is that right.

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We reject this year after the so 
public outcry public opposition

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and really strong committee organizing 
in the state has stopped

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all these projects.

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So that leaves DC.

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You know it's sort of the backdoor.

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But the dirty doormat for US call 
on its way to Asia and so right

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now there there.

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They have been exporting this 7 million 
tons a year for some time

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70 million tons by way of comparison 
the the Cherry Point

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corporate proposal a delegation would 
be about 48 million tons of

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call here and there is this new proposal 
to build a brand new coal

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port on the fridge river in Surrey 
export exclusively American

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call 4 million times now,

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probably more in the future.

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Great.

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So what problems do Coltrane 
polls for local communities.

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Well,

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yeah,

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that's a,

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that's a good point you because 
in a specially NBC and in Metro

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they could because the other 
support authority that has,

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you know it's a federal agency.

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It's,

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it's sort of,

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almost like a Crown corporation.

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It's also regulator it has absolute 
power over decision making on

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Port Lands and that's by land basically 
all along the waterline in

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Metro Vancouver so they can approve 
a coal port but they take no

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responsibility for the external impacts 
that generates in the when

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you're mentioning now is key Coltrane 
so-called trains going to

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communities.

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You know they're extremely loud and 
they often travel at night and

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the noise levels in these things 
are over 100 decibels when the

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but the way things are going 
and that exceeds you know.

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The World Health Organization says 
nighttime noise levels should

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be below 30 decibels for for young 
people from the elderly for the

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SEC others noisy also vibration and 
you know that there's problems

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and White Rock with the the cliff 
faces slumping because of the

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vibration.

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There's also a lot of concern 
over called us,

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do you know we don't know how much 
called us is lost in these

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trains and we don't know what the 
health impacts of law term

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exposure to low levels of particular 
are from the dust.

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So that's an issue.

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The biggest one,

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the biggest concerns a diesel exhaust.

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We know,

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diesel exhaust is a carcinogen and 
if a particular discrimination

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and trains run you know within a 
climate of a number of schools

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and daycare senior centers,

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they're already running now and 
the planet it run more them so

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people are rightly concerned 
about always look.

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How have activist raised Vancouver's 
dirty coal profile in the

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media there.

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Yeah,

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it's been,

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it's been increasing process.

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You know it well and in the fall 
of 2012 a community member in

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Surrey told me about these 2 proposals 
for the expansion at

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Neptune and the new call for answer 
it for his 3 dogs and when I

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look at the numbers,

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if you added up all the proposed 
capacity if all of that call is

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exported.

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It will be more global warming pollution,

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then you know the Northern 
Gateway pipeline.

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It's a huge,

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huge issue,

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but it's all piecemeal and 
it was under the radar.

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So over the past 2.5 years we've 
managed to raise the profile

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immensely our organization and group 
based in Surrey called even

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call in dog within this year than 
others it it's process of

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working with local governments one by one,

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getting them on board about the 
issues having them caller put

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forward motions calling for you know 
proper public assessment or

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health risk assessments of these 
projects and we've actually

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presented before Metro Vancouver and 
the region eventually opposed

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this Surrey outright various House 
leaders you know climate

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scientists leaders have all come out 
saying their post in this for

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everything from the BC nurses' union 
to you then see credit union

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to the fishermen's union too you 
know to groups of said this is a

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bad idea.

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So you know,

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we've held various rallies and events 
and we've presented at the

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Port Authority AGM and it's,

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it's really a simple issue,

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you know we're saying the Port Authority 
can't make decisions that

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affect our future as a region without 
including Arsenal's decision

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and they're an extremely arrogant 
and remote organization so that

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you know that the contrast is is 
so stark that I think the media

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understand this in the broader public 
gets that you know you can't

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do you think this anymore it's it's 
you now in the 19th century

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may not you know captains 
of industry where we're,

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we're a democratic society.

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You know,

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NASA scientist James Hansen famously 
was arrested protesting

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mountaintop removal for coal,

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but in Vancouver I was tracked 
east Simon Fraser University

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professor and world energy expert 
marked a card was arrested

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blocking a coal train.

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So it sounds like you are getting 
significant by in there.

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Yeah,

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it's a pretty compelling story because 
it's a very stark one you

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know we know that we need to radically 
reduce the use of fossil

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fuels to avoid dangerous climate change,

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and it's the one study after another 
is coming out saying that you

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know we could probably burn a bit more.

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The oil and bit more a gas.

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But we absolutely can't burn more coal.

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You know 80% or more remain on the ground.

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If women avoid blowing past any 
sort of faith thresholds for

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climate change and if that's the 
case and I and I believe it's

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true bits,

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and I mean I've read,

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then there is simply no valid argument 
for building a new Cold War

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anywhere in the world could when 
she it they're gonna want you

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that race.

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So it's very black and white from 
you know many things are in life

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, but this is very black and white.

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A new Cold War in Surrey.

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It's a bad idea.

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US thermal coal exports through measuring 
Hoover is a bad idea and

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it's something that we're standing 
up and saying no to thing I

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don't think this is right.

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Trying to stop fossil fuel exports 
is like playing the game

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whack-a-mole you find one project,

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then another one pops up like the 
recent proposal to ship out

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liquid natural gas via the historic 
Fraser River tell us what's

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happening there.

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Well,

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that's another at another 
interesting thing,

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I mean you know it,

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what's kind of most interesting 
about this,

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you know,

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I guess I should say most frustrating 
is that there's no,

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there's no real effort by government 
to make people aware of these

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things you know I literally stumbled 
across this proposal because

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I was on the BBC if I'm an assessment 
project or office website,

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and there's a new proposal recently 
posted 4 from this US company

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Westpac midstream to build an LNG 
terminal on the afraid and if

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you know where to look if you go there,

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you can see that and you can make 
comment but if you don't know.

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You know I gonna find out and the 
government doesn't go along the

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Fraser and you know put up things 
on billboards or or on telephone

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poles and say,

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are you concerned about this.

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The federal government has given 
us from you know this so that

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this when they realize the certain 
size they have to let the BBC

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in federal government's now and the 
government have to decide to

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do an assessment or not so auto.

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You know it's wisdom on May said 
okay will accept comments from

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the public until June 11 to help us 
decide if we should even do an

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assessment or not,

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and furthermore if we should substitute 
the provincial assessment

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for the federal one.

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So if you didn't go to the sea.

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If they see a website.

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The Canadian run of 72 website and 
see that notice you would never

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even known that there is a comment period.

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It's very frustrating because you 
know he's a big things and we

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all need to have a say so ways 
to back up to the proposal.

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This is a plan for a brand new LNG 
terminal on the Fraser River in

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Delta BC next in the cement plants 
Federer across the river and

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just up just upstream from if you 
know Richmond this sort of all

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water mania and a big movie complex 
and all that sort of stuff.

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It would see 120 LNG tankers a year 
and 90 L&G barges here and

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going up and down the Fraser 
River now in comparison.

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Some people are somewhat more aware 
of this proposal for wood

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fiber LNG in squalor should have 
a lot of press this proposal

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Fraser will be 1.5 times as 
large also in comparison.

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The big Petronas Pacific Energy LNG 
project in Prince Rupert would

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be about 7 times larger,

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so this is a fairly small project,

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but it was they'll see a lot of 
LNG tankers on the river the

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proponent in this to me is typical bear.

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You know the project summary description 
and says we want a bogus

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facility.

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It's,

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this is the footprint,

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we're gonna look at an endangered 
plants and archeological sites

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and what not right here.

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But once we sell that L&G and it 
goes an LNG tanker it's someone

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else's responsibility when I can 
assess those risks a crazy.

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You know that's absolutely crazy 
and in the United States.

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If you want to build an LNG terminal,

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the Department of Homeland Security 
and the Coast Guard require

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you do connect a waterway suitability 
assessment on the entire

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tanker root out international 
waters to a distance of 3.5

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kilometers on each side because that's 
how far you know I I think

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that it cloud of be approaching travel 
and still be explosive DC

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that doesn't happen,

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and there is no one asking 
the fundamental questions.

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The final question,

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is it a good idea to go and 
LNG terminal in the face.

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Really.

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They just simply must look and see 
if this will endanger plants or

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salmon or sturgeon at the 
site of the facility.

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It's a very narrow blinkered approach 
to assessing these kinds of

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projects.

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Wait a minute you saying that a cloud 
can come off of one of those

00:25:50.000 --> 00:16:42.000
tankers if they were to leak.

00:16:42.000 --> 00:23:42.000
There we go.

00:23:42.000 --> 00:19:26.000
3.5 kilometers possibly on either 
side of the river into an area

00:20:26.000 --> 00:24:07.000
where millions of people live.

00:21:08.000 --> 00:25:28.000
Yeah,

00:25:28.000 --> 00:26:21.000
I know that's no okay so many 
backup and and quite hot.

00:26:21.000 --> 00:13:55.000
So in the United States there 
there is a thing called Sandy

00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:09.000
National Laboratory essay and DIA 
and they conducted a study in

00:17:29.000 --> 00:22:30.000
the mid 2000s that.

00:24:10.000 --> 00:28:20.000
Said,

00:28:20.000 --> 00:23:01.000
you know,

00:23:01.000 --> 00:25:34.000
how are we going to assess the risks 
from LNG tankers and and what

00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:55.000
sort of garlands are you,

00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:08.000
are we going to create seems so they said.

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:30.000
What's the worst case scenario.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:13:11.000
Well,

00:13:11.000 --> 00:15:14.000
the worst case scenario is you 
know an intentional rupture of

00:15:14.000 --> 00:14:19.000
containment of Ellen of all the 
LNG vessels on a tanker from

00:15:19.000 --> 00:20:21.000
something like a terrorist 
attack or an explosion.

00:20:21.000 --> 00:23:05.000
So in that worst case scenario what 
hazards will be created and so

00:23:05.000 --> 00:17:27.000
they said well within 5 kilometers.

00:17:27.000 --> 00:22:27.000
You know,

00:22:27.000 --> 00:18:41.000
everything would be burnt to a crisp 
and and after 16 and I mean

00:20:21.000 --> 00:26:04.000
you have burn hazards and and freezing 
houses in these things and

00:26:04.000 --> 00:28:25.000
he would decline over distance.

00:18:16.000 --> 00:26:01.000
But if that cloud of LNG that is 
free if Allen she didn't ignite

00:26:41.000 --> 00:28:53.000
right away as it evaporate.

00:13:44.000 --> 00:14:39.000
Soon turns to gas before dispersing 
it can still be a risk of

00:16:09.000 --> 00:27:41.000
producing a fireball up 
to 3.5 kilometers away,

00:27:41.000 --> 00:21:53.000
so for that worst case scenario,

00:21:53.000 --> 00:14:07.000
we wouldn't require that L&G proponents 
examine the risks all

00:15:17.000 --> 00:25:29.000
along that 3 and half kilometer route 
and we want to know if there

00:26:09.000 --> 00:24:20.000
are people living there.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:22:11.000
If there are,

00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:33.000
you know if they're significant 
infrastructure there.

00:22:33.000 --> 00:28:04.000
If there are,

00:28:04.000 --> 00:21:15.000
I know well,

00:21:15.000 --> 00:29:08.000
sort of any sort of property or 
public health and safety risks,

00:29:08.000 --> 00:25:31.000
because you know that in the States 
they say yet explicitly

00:25:31.000 --> 00:21:03.000
examine the possibly of 
a terrorist attack.

00:21:03.000 --> 00:29:34.000
You've got a look at the 
worst case scenario.

00:29:34.000 --> 00:28:37.000
Don't see what could happen if one 
of the things went badly wrong

00:20:48.000 --> 00:18:41.000
while and with so that that's smart 
to me you know you why you

00:18:41.000 --> 00:22:34.000
wanna know what the risks are before 
you privy sings before or

00:22:34.000 --> 00:24:26.000
whoever prism in Canada,

00:24:26.000 --> 00:28:19.000
there is no such requirement and 
although looking at here is the

00:29:29.000 --> 00:15:11.000
footprint of this facility.

00:15:11.000 --> 00:28:21.000
And it's to me,

00:28:21.000 --> 00:15:54.000
that's quite frankly because 
you know I am,

00:15:54.000 --> 00:24:16.000
I am no supporter of the 
Harper government,

00:24:16.000 --> 00:17:20.000
but I do know that they say that 
the risk of terrorist threats

00:17:50.000 --> 00:26:41.000
Israel on our soil.

00:26:41.000 --> 00:29:11.000
Well,

00:29:11.000 --> 00:24:54.000
if that's the case then why you 
looking at the risks from

00:26:34.000 --> 00:23:07.000
transporting an extremely volatile 
substance in these battles

00:14:48.000 --> 00:19:00.000
through highly populated 
areas I just make sense.

00:18:41.000 --> 00:23:41.000
Well,

00:23:41.000 --> 00:21:32.000
Kevin washed brick.

00:21:32.000 --> 00:27:25.000
We know there are quite a few environmentally 
conscious voters in

00:27:25.000 --> 00:24:28.000
the Vancouver region do you worry though,

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:53.000
that your work to stop these proposals 
will push fossil fuels

00:28:43.000 --> 00:30:26.000
further north along the coast to 
swarms or to northern ports,

00:30:26.000 --> 00:27:48.000
like Prince Rupert or killed a man.

00:15:59.000 --> 00:18:50.000
That's events in question.

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:21.000
I don't think so,

00:18:21.000 --> 00:31:03.000
I think you know those 
projects in the north.

00:31:03.000 --> 00:18:06.000
Local people they're gonna 
make their own assessment,

00:18:06.000 --> 00:15:59.000
I mean I know my thoughts are in terms 
of the risks to the climate

00:20:19.000 --> 00:14:53.000
from L&G interims of what groups 
like the CCP in the pen.

00:14:53.000 --> 00:28:56.000
The news you have figured out but 
local populations are gonna

00:22:57.000 --> 00:19:38.000
Broadway and assess.

00:20:18.000 --> 00:18:41.000
The local rescue themselves and I 
and I respect their ability to

00:18:41.000 --> 00:31:13.000
do that and their and their interest 
in the non-I think what's

00:31:13.000 --> 00:25:06.000
going on here is that you know people 
down here are very aware

00:27:36.000 --> 00:19:30.000
that there are these big projects 
proposed up north weather's L&G

00:16:11.000 --> 00:28:23.000
you know it's been pipelines and 
we often don't feel like we can

00:28:23.000 --> 00:27:24.000
have any for say,

00:27:24.000 --> 00:16:17.000
and in this kind of future for BC,

00:16:17.000 --> 00:23:58.000
but in fact metro Vancouver.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:25:52.000
We really are on the front lines 
of the fossil fuel debate in

00:25:52.000 --> 00:31:14.000
export debate because we have proposals 
for the Kinder Morgan

00:31:54.000 --> 00:26:05.000
pipeline,

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:27.000
we've got a proposal for a new coal ports.

00:26:27.000 --> 00:31:11.000
Now we have a proposal for well for 
the L&G Fraser and the LNG and

00:31:11.000 --> 00:27:35.000
squeamish so people realize is that 
there's a lot at stake here

00:28:25.000 --> 00:16:08.000
and they are then it's more accessible,

00:16:08.000 --> 00:21:40.000
it's here you know you can have more 
to say you can get engaged in

00:21:40.000 --> 00:29:00.000
the debate.

00:29:00.000 --> 00:20:32.000
And you can learn more about it,

00:20:32.000 --> 00:25:55.000
so I don't think it'll pushing the 
way I think there's so many

00:15:56.000 --> 00:29:49.000
companies trying to push for so 
many projects at once that like

00:29:49.000 --> 00:17:30.000
you said,

00:17:30.000 --> 00:22:32.000
it's a bit of a lot more they're gonna 
pop up where they feel like

00:22:32.000 --> 00:25:33.000
there's a possibility.

00:17:44.000 --> 00:19:57.000
Where editor group voters taking 
action on climate change.

00:19:57.000 --> 00:24:20.000
Find most of its support to young 
people show up just older folks

00:25:30.000 --> 00:31:51.000
tell us about your supporters.

00:18:22.000 --> 00:31:02.000
That's,

00:31:02.000 --> 00:19:03.000
yeah,

00:19:03.000 --> 00:31:23.000
it's insane.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:21:06.000
So you know most of our 
work is done online,

00:21:06.000 --> 00:31:59.000
really we we engage with the public 
through you know you social

00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:10.000
media.

00:32:10.000 --> 00:17:02.000
When we do events,

00:17:02.000 --> 00:20:14.000
I mean we always work with other 
groups we do events too.

00:20:14.000 --> 00:27:04.000
So it's,

00:27:04.000 --> 00:21:47.000
it's hard to say who's coming from 
where about it really is a

00:21:47.000 --> 00:32:07.000
cross section,

00:32:07.000 --> 00:27:10.000
there's a lot of older concerned 
folks and there's also a lot of

00:27:10.000 --> 00:29:32.000
young people we work a lot with 
a group called Kids for climate

00:30:42.000 --> 00:21:14.000
action on events that,

00:21:14.000 --> 00:26:56.000
and they'd rather their sort 
of a high school audience.

00:26:56.000 --> 00:22:57.000
I think the.

00:22:57.000 --> 00:25:00.000
I think the concern is widespread 
view whether it's because you're

00:26:40.000 --> 00:17:13.000
worried about you know the local 
environmental whether you're

00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.000
worried about your future.

00:18:35.000 --> 00:24:58.000
There's something to be concerned 
about your think I guess for all

00:24:58.000 --> 00:30:58.000
ages.

00:22:49.000 --> 00:19:21.000
And so the tack.

00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:34.000
What do you think other communities 
say in the United States or

00:20:54.000 --> 00:30:47.000
Britain or elsewhere could learn 
from the way you're group has

00:30:47.000 --> 00:17:29.000
formed and operated.

00:32:09.000 --> 00:22:40.000
Well,

00:22:40.000 --> 00:24:51.000
interesting.

00:24:51.000 --> 00:23:24.000
I think you know our our whole 
focus is trying to create

00:23:54.000 --> 00:30:46.000
opportunities for the public 
to express their concern.

00:30:46.000 --> 00:26:40.000
The government we train connected 
off between climate policy and

00:28:00.000 --> 00:21:25.000
fossil fuel exports that put climate 
at risk because the climate

00:21:55.000 --> 00:27:47.000
policy discussion are often pretty 
abstract like the thing that's

00:28:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000
happened recently with perhaps Harper 
have been saying that they

00:32:49.000 --> 00:23:54.000
agreed to eliminate fossil fuels 
by 2100 well 84 years and now no

00:23:54.000 --> 00:22:26.000
one's gonna be here is alive now and.

00:22:26.000 --> 00:26:29.000
And that's just an absurd abstract 
discussion we have real

00:26:29.000 --> 00:18:32.000
products right here right now there 
are threatening our climate.

00:18:32.000 --> 00:20:13.000
So I think,

00:20:13.000 --> 00:18:36.000
creating opportunities for the 
public to engage in explicit

00:20:06.000 --> 00:18:47.000
concerns are key.

00:18:47.000 --> 00:22:00.000
And you know we've got a lot through 
public commenting websites

00:23:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000
like right now for the L&G think 
we've set up a website called

00:25:53.000 --> 00:32:17.000
real LNG hearings.org and that brings 
together all the information

00:32:17.000 --> 00:25:01.000
on the Fraser River LNG proposal 
and there's a commenting tool.

00:25:01.000 --> 00:26:04.000
Also you can send a message directly 
to the federal and run a

00:26:04.000 --> 00:18:45.000
minister,

00:18:45.000 --> 00:23:16.000
it's easy to local government.

00:23:16.000 --> 00:32:19.000
So my experience is that people care 
and they want to take action

00:32:19.000 --> 00:25:50.000
. You know,

00:25:50.000 --> 00:29:23.000
they may think that they don't know 
how or they don't know during

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.000
the time so you create an opportunity 
put all the information.

00:29:26.000 --> 00:19:48.000
One place that people want to act.

00:19:48.000 --> 00:27:49.000
I guess just empowering people,

00:27:49.000 --> 00:32:30.000
that's the key empowering people.

00:25:11.000 --> 00:21:24.000
Can you give us your website address 
or your Facebook page.

00:27:54.000 --> 00:18:05.000
Sure.

00:18:05.000 --> 00:30:29.000
Our website is BT ACC.org 
that's a website.

00:30:29.000 --> 00:27:00.000
But the key,

00:27:00.000 --> 00:29:12.000
we're really focusing 
right now and on LNG.

00:29:12.000 --> 00:28:55.000
And so that's 3 real LNG hearings.org.

00:20:26.000 --> 00:25:36.000
Great,

00:25:36.000 --> 00:19:47.000
thank you so much.

00:19:47.000 --> 00:18:20.000
I guess Kevin washed Brooke is 
an activist in Vancouver,

00:18:20.000 --> 00:29:50.000
Canada.

00:29:50.000 --> 00:21:24.000
As part of the group voters taking 
action on climate change.

00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:45.000
I appreciate your time.

00:21:45.000 --> 00:26:25.000
Kevin.

00:27:05.000 --> 00:19:16.000
You're welcome.

00:19:16.000 --> 00:21:46.000
Take.

00:30:18.000 --> 00:23:09.000
We will.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:21:22.000
You're listening to shot radio.

00:34:32.000 --> 00:28:03.000
I don't worry.

00:22:45.000 --> 00:19:49.000
I'm Alex meth at all their 
vehicle shock.org.

00:33:30.000 --> 00:28:34.000
What is happening on the US West Coast 
where fossil fuel companies

00:28:34.000 --> 00:22:57.000
raised export carbon to Asia.

00:22:57.000 --> 00:31:29.000
Let's tune in with a long-time 
friend of the environment.

00:31:29.000 --> 00:27:03.000
Daphne why for 8 years 
out of Washington DC,

00:27:03.000 --> 00:19:04.000
Daphne,

00:19:04.000 --> 00:23:57.000
host of the syndicated radio show 
Earth beat on the Pacifica

00:27:27.000 --> 00:21:31.000
network her articles have been published 
by both mainstream and

00:23:31.000 --> 00:33:43.000
alternative media now 
Japanese in Portland,

00:33:43.000 --> 00:30:04.000
Oregon.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:23:18.000
As the director of the climate and 
energy program at the Center

00:23:18.000 --> 00:20:11.000
for sustainable economy at the same time,

00:20:11.000 --> 00:34:04.000
she's an associate fellow at the 
Institute for Policy Studies.

00:34:04.000 --> 00:24:45.000
Daphne.

00:24:45.000 --> 00:23:08.000
It's so good to hear your voice 
again on Radio Echo shock,

00:23:08.000 --> 00:34:58.000
welcome back.

00:25:29.000 --> 00:20:50.000
Thanks so much.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:23:41.000
Alex is going to be here.

00:20:32.000 --> 00:23:26.000
You know I were just on post carbon 
radio on K W M are in Northern

00:23:26.000 --> 00:22:07.000
California with.

00:22:47.000 --> 00:27:31.000
Bing Gong and current IOS it was 
a wide-ranging talk I'd like in

00:27:31.000 --> 00:35:14.000
this instance to drill down to 
what's happening in Portland.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:33:15.000
The state of Oregon,

00:33:15.000 --> 00:27:17.000
maybe the Pacific Northwest.

00:27:17.000 --> 00:34:50.000
When it comes to transporting fossil 
fuels are you up for that.

00:33:21.000 --> 00:26:22.000
I dream.

00:20:23.000 --> 00:27:33.000
All right.

00:27:33.000 --> 00:22:26.000
Why don't we start with Portland 
what battles have been fought

00:22:26.000 --> 00:24:09.000
their recently against becoming 
a dirty carbon outlet.

00:31:00.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Well,

00:35:10.000 --> 00:29:14.000
one thing that people may not realize 
is that not only Portland,

00:29:14.000 --> 00:30:25.000
Oregon.

00:30:25.000 --> 00:33:26.000
Barry hit city.

00:33:26.000 --> 00:22:01.000
It also happened to be one of the 
first cities in the first city

00:22:01.000 --> 00:33:34.000
in the United States to put in place 
a climate action plan back in

00:33:34.000 --> 00:35:08.000
the early 1990s Portland decided that 
it really needed to take the

00:35:08.000 --> 00:29:02.000
climate crisis seriously an admirable,

00:29:02.000 --> 00:32:46.000
the city had largely been ahead of 
the curve for the rest of the

00:34:36.000 --> 00:30:31.000
country and who has a reputation 
intact was recognized by the

00:30:31.000 --> 00:35:55.000
White House's so-called climate 
championships last December,

00:35:55.000 --> 00:34:30.000
despite its reputation or perhaps 
in addition to that reputation.

00:34:30.000 --> 00:28:26.000
The measure decided that it was going 
to be a good idea to invite

00:32:06.000 --> 00:36:30.000
one of the biggest tar sands pipeline 
operators in the Canadian

00:26:21.000 --> 00:24:15.000
out Penn Beantown Pipeline Corporation 
to set up shop in

00:30:25.000 --> 00:27:30.000
Portland's harbors and they wanted 
to export propane from the

00:29:30.000 --> 00:32:34.000
terminal here in Portland he welcomed 
them with open arms.

00:32:34.000 --> 00:23:10.000
A lot of us began to organize cried 
foul and at the time of this

00:30:10.000 --> 00:24:21.000
interview.

00:24:21.000 --> 00:23:35.000
We seem to have one were reluctant 
to completely declare victory

00:25:45.000 --> 00:32:49.000
because this corporation have bottomless 
pockets and is doing all

00:32:49.000 --> 00:21:35.000
it can do you fight back but we we 
need to campaign both based on

00:21:35.000 --> 00:23:01.000
both safety issues climate issues 
and we generated thousands of

00:23:01.000 --> 00:31:26.000
letters and very creative involvement 
from a wide array of folks

00:32:26.000 --> 00:22:38.000
here in in the city,

00:22:38.000 --> 00:30:33.000
including Rani basically first activists 
and people taking over

00:31:03.000 --> 00:23:18.000
City Council hearings and we finally 
got our message across and it

00:23:18.000 --> 00:28:02.000
appears that time you know it is 
not going to be welcome anymore

00:31:32.000 --> 00:27:24.000
in in the city of Portland.

00:27:24.000 --> 00:21:48.000
We want to use this victory though 
not just to say no one in our

00:22:28.000 --> 00:29:09.000
backyard,

00:29:09.000 --> 00:35:34.000
but also to alert people 
to just how insane.

00:35:34.000 --> 00:28:09.000
It is to be pushing forward with fossil 
fuel infrastructure in the

00:29:39.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Pacific Northwest.

00:35:10.000 --> 00:29:35.000
They have been the imperative that 
we begin to ratchet down our

00:32:15.000 --> 00:29:07.000
overall greenhouse gas emissions.

00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:28.000
Not only the northwest,

00:29:28.000 --> 00:34:32.000
but globally and to draw attention 
to the fact that the Pacific

00:34:32.000 --> 00:22:47.000
Northwest right now is in the 
crosshairs of the fossil fuel

00:22:47.000 --> 00:32:27.000
industry.

00:32:27.000 --> 00:24:33.000
They want to export 5 times the carbon 
and is now being proposed

00:26:33.000 --> 00:32:18.000
for the Keystone XL pipeline through 
our reports in Oregon and

00:32:58.000 --> 00:27:44.000
Washington is and very few people 
are aware of just how serious

00:31:14.000 --> 00:25:10.000
this however it is to our economy 
to iron beautiful rivers and

00:25:10.000 --> 00:36:20.000
lakes and

00:29:12.000 --> 00:27:16.000
outside of the northwest of course 
hero at the norms and trying to

00:28:16.000 --> 00:34:00.000
take on one proposal after another 
that comes down the pike.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:53.000
So rather than just playing whack-a-mole 
they which is sort of

00:37:33.000 --> 00:29:06.000
what a lot of groups have been doing it,

00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:50.000
you stop one project popped up 
an unemployed we've decided to

00:32:50.000 --> 00:25:26.000
declare a ban on all new fossil 
fuel infrastructure starting in

00:25:26.000 --> 00:33:20.000
Portland and then moving out to the 
rest of Oregon and the rest of

00:33:20.000 --> 00:38:45.000
the northwest and we should be getting 
a hearing over the coming

00:38:45.000 --> 00:36:41.000
year by city officials around this 
call we want no fossil fuel

00:38:41.000 --> 00:27:05.000
exports and no new fossil fuel 
infrastructure in the city.

00:27:05.000 --> 00:36:47.000
So that's our campaign and and 
I think we have a pretty good

00:37:47.000 --> 00:31:28.000
chance of winning.

00:26:19.000 --> 00:29:59.000
Yeah,

00:29:59.000 --> 00:37:20.000
it would be such a different story.

00:37:20.000 --> 00:33:54.000
If you're exporting solar panels 
in bulk or wind machines.

00:28:05.000 --> 00:23:46.000
Sure,

00:23:46.000 --> 00:29:16.000
yeah,

00:29:16.000 --> 00:37:49.000
I mean we would love to be doing 
something along those lines,

00:37:49.000 --> 00:32:34.000
and in fact that's that's the vision 
that Portland quite action

00:32:34.000 --> 00:40:18.000
plan today called for which is you 
know I get under way ahead of

00:40:18.000 --> 00:27:43.000
the curve trying to push for by 
Kabul and walkable cities could

00:30:03.000 --> 00:36:56.000
drastically reducing greenhouse 
gas emissions increasing public

00:38:46.000 --> 00:33:47.000
transit.

00:33:47.000 --> 00:36:19.000
So it just doesn't make sense.

00:36:19.000 --> 00:35:43.000
We found that the emissions from 
Justice Warren propane terminal

00:38:13.000 --> 00:36:38.000
alone over several decades would be 
larger than the entire city of

00:38:08.000 --> 00:39:31.000
Portland's emissions if if our missions 
were to continue to go

00:39:31.000 --> 00:30:02.000
down.

00:30:02.000 --> 00:34:56.000
So I just didn't make sense from 
a climate action perspective to

00:35:36.000 --> 00:39:58.000
be proceeding with this this terminal.

00:29:49.000 --> 00:33:59.000
Right.

00:33:59.000 --> 00:26:02.000
It's almost like changing your light 
bulbs at home but along a

00:26:02.000 --> 00:25:44.000
coal plant to be built next door.

00:25:44.000 --> 00:33:25.000
So as you know.

00:33:25.000 --> 00:32:18.000
Billionaire Warren Buffet is having 
a hard time finding a place to

00:32:48.000 --> 00:27:32.000
unload his call trains 
for shipping to China,

00:27:32.000 --> 00:26:36.000
what have you heard about new coal 
ports in the Pacific Northwest

00:26:36.000 --> 00:29:37.000
. Well,

00:29:37.000 --> 00:33:47.000
you know,

00:33:47.000 --> 00:36:31.000
there's been quite a few proposals 
all export terminals in the

00:36:31.000 --> 00:33:36.000
Pacific Northwest and almost all 
of them have been defeated.

00:33:36.000 --> 00:30:57.000
We have 2,

00:30:57.000 --> 00:39:59.000
there are still on the table,

00:39:59.000 --> 00:38:43.000
one in Long View Washington 
and one in Cherry Point:

00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:19.000
both are for over 40 million tons 
of coal exports per year they

00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:24.000
won in Cherry Point Washington is 
on Native American land on the

00:41:24.000 --> 00:33:56.000
only land and they are,

00:33:56.000 --> 00:39:41.000
they are fighting and waging a very 
serious battle against that

00:25:12.000 --> 00:35:35.000
call export terminal because they 
argue that it would violate

00:37:15.000 --> 00:32:30.000
their treaties and would affect 
their fisheries the other

00:32:30.000 --> 00:27:45.000
proposals that have been tabled 
by up and down the the Columbia

00:27:45.000 --> 00:36:47.000
River have have been withdrawn,

00:36:47.000 --> 00:32:11.000
essentially by the investors 
over the past 5 years,

00:32:11.000 --> 00:30:55.000
you may have to do with the fact that 
call increasingly has become

00:33:15.000 --> 00:35:17.000
less and less profitable,

00:35:17.000 --> 00:33:31.000
we also suspect it has something 
to do with the fact that these

00:34:51.000 --> 00:40:07.000
very same terminal began to look 
attractive for oil exports.

00:40:07.000 --> 00:26:22.000
Soon as we get rid of a of a coal 
terminal an oil terminal as

00:26:22.000 --> 00:39:02.000
proposed,

00:39:02.000 --> 00:40:16.000
in fact the largest oil terminal 
in the entire United States is

00:40:46.000 --> 00:36:30.000
being proposed right across the river 
from Portland in the event

00:37:30.000 --> 00:26:57.000
Koura Washington and that battle 
is now being wedged between on

00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:08.000
the one hand,

00:26:08.000 --> 00:39:02.000
there's any plan for a major development 
on the riverfront that a

00:39:02.000 --> 00:27:16.000
lot of people are very excited 
to see happen with you know

00:30:36.000 --> 00:27:50.000
condominiums and businesses ride 
along the river and should this

00:28:10.000 --> 00:36:54.000
oil terminal get built there that 
project will not go forward.

00:36:54.000 --> 00:32:49.000
So there's a lot of tension between 
those 2 different types of

00:34:29.000 --> 00:42:40.000
development that have being proposed.

00:42:40.000 --> 00:39:21.000
But you know,

00:39:21.000 --> 00:30:43.000
over and over again.

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:04.000
These oil,

00:30:04.000 --> 00:33:49.000
gas and coal corporations are using 
very sneaky tactics they'll

00:33:49.000 --> 00:36:11.000
claim for example,

00:36:11.000 --> 00:42:45.000
one of the ways 30 oil company managed 
to get the Bakken crude

00:27:36.000 --> 00:35:29.000
managed to be exported along 
the Columbia River,

00:35:29.000 --> 00:32:51.000
they got me a port,

00:32:51.000 --> 00:35:15.000
claiming it was going to be used 
as a bio refinery the bio

00:37:25.000 --> 00:41:38.000
refinery went bankrupt and there 
and once they had already gotten

00:42:38.000 --> 00:32:42.000
the amended for the bio refinery 
they changed it to an oil

00:32:42.000 --> 00:41:05.000
terminal so there's all sorts 
of tricky schemes that these

00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:18.000
industries are using outright lies,

00:43:18.000 --> 00:32:00.000
claiming that they are,

00:32:00.000 --> 00:37:30.000
you know,

00:37:30.000 --> 00:43:03.000
for example in the case of the propane 
terminal they claimed it

00:27:14.000 --> 00:36:58.000
was going to be used for the women 
to cook with him in Asia,

00:36:58.000 --> 00:34:42.000
we found that in fact it was on the 
used to be making proclaiming

00:37:52.000 --> 00:31:26.000
and plastics and nothing to do with 
the alleviating the poverty

00:40:46.000 --> 00:38:08.000
were women in in Asia.

00:38:08.000 --> 00:40:11.000
So you know we have to be on our 
guard against these companies

00:40:41.000 --> 00:28:22.000
there,

00:28:22.000 --> 00:33:06.000
they're using every strategy they 
can Oregon apparently is number

00:33:06.000 --> 00:27:40.000
3 nationally as a target for Alex funds,

00:27:40.000 --> 00:32:14.000
that's one of the right wing anti-environmental 
and and climate

00:33:34.000 --> 00:34:38.000
denialist groups that's been pushing 
a a very strong legislative

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:22.000
agenda in favor of big energy and 
they're going up oil you know.

00:34:22.000 --> 00:41:32.000
So we're,

00:41:32.000 --> 00:34:25.000
we're really fighting on all 
fronts here in the north.

00:34:56.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Now going ask you about that.

00:40:07.000 --> 00:43:00.000
I mean whenever big oil money 
comes into an area.

00:43:00.000 --> 00:34:13.000
There's a chance for corruption 
and certainly you can woo

00:34:13.000 --> 00:31:27.000
politicians with the ideas of more 
jobs and a better economy,

00:31:27.000 --> 00:42:31.000
and eventually I wonder is it even 
compatible with local democracy

00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:16.000
and and freedom to in your area to 
allow these companies to come

00:28:16.000 --> 00:32:18.000
in and start working the 
way you're describing.

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:31.000
Well that's that's compared threat.

00:30:31.000 --> 00:29:45.000
I think that's that's looming for 
region is you know it's yet to

00:29:45.000 --> 00:37:59.000
potentially will change the and not 
just the political nature of

00:38:29.000 --> 00:34:20.000
this region,

00:34:20.000 --> 00:42:02.000
but you know the entire economy.

00:42:02.000 --> 00:43:36.000
It was shaped in a completely different 
direction when we start

00:43:36.000 --> 00:42:11.000
welcoming in trains and trains 
and terminals and refineries

00:38:32.000 --> 00:34:36.000
suddenly start looking a lot more 
like Texas than Oregon both

00:35:16.000 --> 00:41:29.000
politically and you know environmentally 
and that's certainly not

00:43:49.000 --> 00:36:02.000
what a lot of people moved 
to the Pacific Northwest.

00:36:02.000 --> 00:31:16.000
His experience and that the 
values of the northwest,

00:31:16.000 --> 00:34:00.000
but you know we have in addition 
to the the traditional political

00:34:00.000 --> 00:44:40.000
concerns.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:37:14.000
There's also of course the concerns 
that Native Americans have

00:37:14.000 --> 00:33:09.000
around preserving their trade is 
a concern has been without a

00:34:39.000 --> 00:44:53.000
court and try to get these treaties 
upheld for Native Americans is

00:45:23.000 --> 00:41:47.000
that in some cases if they lose 
their truly get weekend.

00:41:47.000 --> 00:44:11.000
So it's a great at great risk that 
they go to court and try to get

00:45:41.000 --> 00:33:36.000
these treaties upheld and that's 
another potential setback that

00:35:36.000 --> 00:39:57.000
unfortunately once again.

00:39:57.000 --> 00:41:30.000
Native Americans have an awful 
lot to lose in this battle.

00:38:01.000 --> 00:41:45.000
This is Radio Eco shark with Augusta 
long time Green radio host

00:43:25.000 --> 00:32:10.000
and activist Stephanie Weisz another 
big do you know Darfuris is

00:32:40.000 --> 00:38:23.000
to announce massive liquid 
natural gas terminals.

00:38:23.000 --> 00:41:45.000
We've got a government 
in British Columbia,

00:41:45.000 --> 00:35:49.000
the got elected promising all the 
jobs in the money and and you

00:35:49.000 --> 00:31:12.000
know our budget would be totally 
balanced once we get these LNG

00:32:32.000 --> 00:40:22.000
plants,

00:40:22.000 --> 00:46:03.000
which have not materialized.

00:46:03.000 --> 00:32:15.000
Incidentally,

00:32:15.000 --> 00:43:27.000
what about LNG in the Pacific Northwest.

00:37:28.000 --> 00:41:08.000
Well,

00:41:08.000 --> 00:39:12.000
that's another big battle that we're 
facing right now we've got 2

00:40:22.000 --> 00:38:57.000
major pipelines being proposed just 
for Oregon one in southern

00:38:57.000 --> 00:37:00.000
Oregon that they want to build its over$7

00:37:10.000 --> 00:36:45.000
billion pipeline that they want to 
build through the southern part

00:36:45.000 --> 00:41:50.000
of Oregon and then have the export 
terminal export LNG from coups

00:42:30.000 --> 00:45:44.000
they Oregon and another one in northern 
Oregon and Washington,

00:45:44.000 --> 00:38:19.000
Oregon and both of these 
projects would involved.

00:38:19.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Of course,

00:35:10.000 --> 00:34:45.000
massive equation land that a 
lot of it in private hands.

00:34:45.000 --> 00:35:48.000
And in many cases they are claiming,

00:35:48.000 --> 00:45:50.000
eminent domain.

00:45:50.000 --> 00:35:26.000
You know as an argument in favor 
of her example 10 about$25,000

00:40:56.000 --> 00:44:27.000
per acre,

00:44:27.000 --> 00:40:42.000
which is way below the market value 
due to land borders and the

00:40:42.000 --> 00:37:06.000
irony in this is that many of these 
LNG companies are actually

00:38:46.000 --> 00:40:29.000
foreign owned and they're 
claiming eminent domain,

00:40:29.000 --> 00:32:02.000
which is you know of course 
it's for export.

00:32:02.000 --> 00:43:55.000
So a lot of people that I was lifting 
these LNG terminals are

00:44:55.000 --> 00:32:06.000
saying,

00:32:06.000 --> 00:35:16.000
you know,

00:35:16.000 --> 00:42:56.000
how,

00:42:56.000 --> 00:44:21.000
how can he possibly be using a law 
that was created to develop

00:44:21.000 --> 00:39:46.000
infrastructure for people in the United 
States taking on land away

00:39:46.000 --> 00:33:21.000
from us in order to facilitate the 
profits of foreign corporations

00:36:01.000 --> 00:33:15.000
that are just bypassing all of our 
our legal structures in order

00:33:15.000 --> 00:36:29.000
to to build this pipeline and exported 
it to other countries.

00:36:29.000 --> 00:42:20.000
So there's a lot of resistance.

00:42:20.000 --> 00:37:21.000
But again,

00:37:21.000 --> 00:42:25.000
not with so much money on achieve 
all a lot of politicians are

00:34:16.000 --> 00:47:47.000
lining up to support this,

00:47:47.000 --> 00:40:22.000
and certainly our local paper 
The Oregonian seems to be

00:33:24.000 --> 00:39:07.000
completely in the pocket of the fossil 
fuel industry which written

00:39:07.000 --> 00:36:30.000
editorials saying that climate 
change is not a concern for

00:37:00.000 --> 00:43:14.000
Oregonian Gennaro regularly trumpeting 
all the benefits of these

00:43:54.000 --> 00:48:15.000
fossil fuel exports.

00:48:15.000 --> 00:44:57.000
So we're in a bit of a,

00:44:57.000 --> 00:35:08.000
you know,

00:35:08.000 --> 00:41:50.000
in a bit of a of a war 
here in the northwest.

00:41:50.000 --> 00:45:04.000
In terms of both keeping people 
informed about what's really

00:45:04.000 --> 00:46:38.000
happening and and taking you know 
holding our elected officials

00:48:28.000 --> 00:38:49.000
accountable.

00:37:40.000 --> 00:40:02.000
Does the state of Oregon allow fracas.

00:39:23.000 --> 00:36:50.000
Now it has not banned tracking 
this actually did come up this

00:36:50.000 --> 00:40:44.000
year and that there wasn't a bill 
that originally was going to ban

00:40:44.000 --> 00:42:58.000
for acting and then it sort of morphed 
into regulating tracking

00:46:48.000 --> 00:41:41.000
and that created a huge uproar where 
people said no we don't want

00:41:41.000 --> 00:34:32.000
to regulate it.

00:34:32.000 --> 00:40:55.000
We want ban it out outcry currently 
there as far as I know there's

00:43:05.000 --> 00:36:40.000
very little in the way of any sort 
of gas exploitable gas reserves

00:36:40.000 --> 00:43:03.000
anywhere in Oregon but I think he 
would have an awfully hard time

00:47:03.000 --> 00:46:24.000
for hacking in Oregon.

00:46:25.000 --> 00:35:47.000
Well that's good to hear now Daphne,

00:35:47.000 --> 00:37:21.000
I know you continue to keep track 
of US national policy as well.

00:37:21.000 --> 00:41:54.000
What do you make of President Obama 
taking you know he talks

00:43:04.000 --> 00:34:58.000
strongly about climate change and 
any approves exploration for

00:35:58.000 --> 00:42:21.000
more fossil fuels in the fragile 
Arctic by Shell Oil.

00:36:32.000 --> 00:34:34.000
You know you're getting as good as mine.

00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:39.000
Alex I'm I'm just mystified at 
you know how he can not take

00:42:29.000 --> 00:44:00.000
especially of late.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:39:52.000
In his last 2 years in office,

00:39:52.000 --> 00:38:46.000
where I think it's so much more freely 
disputed boldly about the

00:39:56.000 --> 00:46:59.000
climate crisis and seems to 
be taking an awful lot of

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.000
opportunities to speak out on it.

00:39:32.000 --> 00:45:05.000
Why he would on the one hand take these,

00:45:05.000 --> 00:34:16.000
you know,

00:34:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000
take these actions do for example 
restrict coal-fired power plant

00:46:19.000 --> 00:35:34.000
emissions and and increase 
energy efficient,

00:35:34.000 --> 00:49:37.000
fuel-efficient automobiles and then 
at the same time allow for

00:49:37.000 --> 00:36:32.000
Arctic drilling and massive oil 
and gas chemical exports.

00:36:32.000 --> 00:35:56.000
I suppose it may have something 
to do with the fact that he was

00:37:16.000 --> 00:36:40.000
the number one recipient of BP's 
funds when he was running for

00:39:10.000 --> 00:43:01.000
office.

00:43:01.000 --> 00:37:16.000
I don't know if he's still feeling 
beholden to his donors.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:39:20.000
It's really hard to understand why 
he why he is acting only hears

00:39:20.000 --> 00:36:13.000
. And again on the international front.

00:36:13.000 --> 00:35:24.000
I was disappointed.

00:35:24.000 --> 00:46:35.000
The leaders of industrial countries,

00:46:35.000 --> 00:42:09.000
the G7 could only promise an end to 
carbon emissions by the end of

00:42:09.000 --> 00:40:51.000
this century 85 years away.

00:40:51.000 --> 00:41:04.000
That's way too late to avoid 
catastrophic climate change.

00:41:04.000 --> 00:36:45.000
What do you think.

00:48:45.000 --> 00:41:56.000
That's right,

00:41:56.000 --> 00:46:21.000
I mean we had a proposal that whereas 
the Germans and the G7 were

00:48:01.000 --> 00:36:57.000
trying to you get indeed curb innovation 
of all other G7 economies

00:42:27.000 --> 00:50:12.000
by 20-50 and the Canadians and 
the Japanese pushed back on

00:50:42.000 --> 00:44:24.000
urgently and said no,

00:44:24.000 --> 00:45:39.000
but we were sign on to do carbon 
the station by 2100 of course is

00:46:39.000 --> 00:36:21.000
a non-binding agreement.

00:36:21.000 --> 00:39:04.000
So even if it were 2050 it would be,

00:39:04.000 --> 00:49:39.000
wouldn't be all that that exciting 
but 2100 it is still far out

00:35:00.000 --> 00:50:23.000
you know past it the lifetime of 
any of these folks at the table

00:35:14.000 --> 00:50:16.000
and I'm sure they felt very comfortable 
making this agreement and

00:42:47.000 --> 00:37:29.000
kicking the can down the road.

00:37:29.000 --> 00:45:03.000
The Japanese apparently are very 
heavily invested you know coal

00:45:03.000 --> 00:44:27.000
fire power you know he's learned 
that explains their reluctance,

00:44:27.000 --> 00:50:32.000
do you see any decrease in their 
investments in coal and I I I

00:50:32.000 --> 00:48:16.000
suppose the Canadians do the tourist 
town are reluctant to see

00:41:37.000 --> 00:50:52.000
decolonization any trying to do but 
you seem to suggest in in our

00:51:42.000 --> 00:43:27.000
last conversation tar sands profits 
are plummeting as their own.

00:50:27.000 --> 00:46:58.000
That's true.

00:46:58.000 --> 00:48:11.000
It's just too expensive to 
produce the tar sands.

00:48:11.000 --> 00:38:33.000
You need at least$60

00:40:53.000 --> 00:41:44.000
to$70

00:43:14.000 --> 00:42:28.000
a barrel to do it and they're only 
getting about 40 to 45 they

00:42:28.000 --> 00:35:54.000
don't get world prices because the 
tires and requires so much work

00:35:54.000 --> 00:50:16.000
at the refinery to get a usable 
product that they get a lower

00:51:16.000 --> 00:39:57.000
price.

00:39:57.000 --> 00:51:29.000
So they're losing some money and it,

00:51:29.000 --> 00:37:34.000
what's happening is this massive layoffs 
in Alberta and I mean big

00:37:34.000 --> 00:36:49.000
big big layoffs and the financing 
for these companies is getting

00:37:39.000 --> 00:38:11.000
hard to get and their stocks,

00:38:11.000 --> 00:49:54.000
according to one of our 
guests went down 70%,

00:49:54.000 --> 00:41:07.000
so that's a big drop in their 
stock value as well.

00:37:08.000 --> 00:42:39.000
Interesting.

00:42:39.000 --> 00:45:19.000
Well,

00:45:19.000 --> 00:46:00.000
that may be.

00:46:00.000 --> 00:52:02.000
Let me explain why they're trying to do.

00:52:02.000 --> 00:40:39.000
Also some of the same companies 
cap into the acts Gaston and

00:46:39.000 --> 00:52:34.000
propane byproduct of that in the past 
have been treated as a waste

00:37:05.000 --> 00:43:25.000
gas,

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:47.000
it's another revenue stream for them.

00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:31.000
You now do you expect much concrete 
to come out of the pair's

00:43:41.000 --> 00:49:42.000
climate talks later this year.

00:38:34.000 --> 00:44:47.000
Well I'm I'm always hopeful.

00:44:47.000 --> 00:47:27.000
Well,

00:47:27.000 --> 00:39:41.000
I I had that they haven't been 
I I went to the climate

00:39:41.000 --> 00:42:56.000
negotiations in Kyoto and I went 
to several others after that and

00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:48.000
I haven't been to the last few years,

00:43:48.000 --> 00:53:21.000
and I was just feeling very discouraged 
about all of the

00:40:12.000 --> 00:43:36.000
brinksmanship and which which is what 
you always see it with these

00:44:56.000 --> 00:48:10.000
conferences nobody shows their hand 
until long after midnight on

00:48:10.000 --> 00:42:44.000
the final made and finally everybody's 
scrambling on very little

00:42:44.000 --> 00:48:56.000
sleep to come up with an agreement.

00:48:56.000 --> 00:52:00.000
It just seemed like you know I dream 
of of chess with the planets

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:53.000
. The fate of the planet at 
stake over and over again.

00:52:53.000 --> 00:43:36.000
I got I kind of very tiresome.

00:43:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000
This time,

00:50:37.000 --> 00:46:31.000
you know we do how China coming 
to the table with an agreement

00:52:31.000 --> 00:50:27.000
with the United States that does seem 
to have potentially at least

00:51:57.000 --> 00:45:02.000
broken a logjam between the developing 
countries and that the

00:45:22.000 --> 00:51:45.000
wealthy countries that we saw over 
and over again played out its

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:06.000
climate negotiations.

00:53:06.000 --> 00:49:10.000
So it seems that the dynamics 
could be different enough to

00:37:41.000 --> 00:43:55.000
potentially a shift things moving forward.

00:43:55.000 --> 00:51:59.000
But whether we'll see the kind of 
truly dramatic commitments that

00:53:39.000 --> 00:46:42.000
are needed to stabilize the 
climate earning trying to,

00:46:42.000 --> 00:52:42.000
you know,

00:52:42.000 --> 00:41:47.000
I'm not that hopeful but I I I do 
think to think well at least

00:42:37.000 --> 00:51:28.000
begin to shift at this next Senate.

00:52:58.000 --> 00:42:39.000
Fox.

00:50:29.000 --> 00:39:20.000
You know.

00:40:10.000 --> 00:38:53.000
Now America has elections 
coming up eventually,

00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:16.000
do you expect the same rogues 
gallery of Republican climate

00:40:16.000 --> 00:39:29.000
deniers to be elected again in Congress.

00:53:49.000 --> 00:38:36.000
I think the Republicans have a very 
slim chances of gaining the

00:38:36.000 --> 00:49:06.000
presidency.

00:49:06.000 --> 00:50:30.000
I think that they have a higher likelihood 
of retaining control of

00:50:30.000 --> 00:52:23.000
the south and in the house when 
you have somebody like Hillary

00:52:23.000 --> 00:54:34.000
Clinton running for office.

00:54:34.000 --> 00:47:30.000
I think you know just given her 
stature nationally and and

00:49:00.000 --> 00:44:51.000
globally.

00:44:51.000 --> 00:54:04.000
She probably stand a greater 
chance than any of the other

00:40:55.000 --> 00:39:18.000
candidates they're running but a 
lot can happen between now and

00:39:18.000 --> 00:48:41.000
20-16 that's my prediction 
at this point in time,

00:48:41.000 --> 00:44:36.000
oil processing Bernie Sanders surprisingly 
gaining on Hillary

00:44:36.000 --> 00:54:56.000
Clinton.

00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:19.000
He is an independent and a 
self-proclaimed socialist.

00:55:19.000 --> 00:43:23.000
So that's a huge surprise 
for the United States.

00:43:23.000 --> 00:47:14.000
I think what it suggests,

00:47:14.000 --> 00:41:09.000
is that people have had enough of 
either candidate really avoiding

00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:03.000
the issue of income inequality and 
Bernie standard but there is

00:41:43.000 --> 00:48:16.000
taking on the corporations in the 
banks like no other candidate is

00:48:16.000 --> 00:39:57.000
right now.

00:50:47.000 --> 00:51:20.000
You know I remember after the financial 
crash that Bernie Sanders

00:54:50.000 --> 00:46:34.000
actually came out and described 
who runs America and it was

00:49:14.000 --> 00:50:17.000
revealing he talked for hours and 
hours and hours on the record.

00:50:17.000 --> 00:49:59.000
It was great stuff.

00:49:59.000 --> 00:41:50.000
Well,

00:41:50.000 --> 00:39:42.000
I see that scientists say.

00:39:42.000 --> 00:52:14.000
Climate change will look very different 
from region to region,

00:52:14.000 --> 00:54:57.000
and we saw that again this year 
in North America with a hot

00:40:08.000 --> 00:46:02.000
exceptionally dry western a cool 
snow rainy east is it a big

00:47:42.000 --> 00:54:46.000
problem that citizens experience climate 
change so locally and yet

00:54:46.000 --> 00:50:29.000
the problem demands a global solution.

00:44:30.000 --> 00:54:20.000
Well,

00:54:20.000 --> 00:45:13.000
I mean in terms of the 
deserving Northwest,

00:45:13.000 --> 00:47:47.000
one of the things that we are preparing 
for a which is a little

00:47:47.000 --> 00:49:58.000
bit alarming is there.

00:49:58.000 --> 00:51:32.000
Niger influx of climate refugees 
to the northwest,

00:51:32.000 --> 00:46:35.000
city officials tell us that they're 
expecting you know the

00:48:35.000 --> 00:44:58.000
population in Portland for example 
to increased by several hundred

00:45:58.000 --> 00:43:50.000
thousand in the coming decades.

00:43:50.000 --> 00:51:55.000
So I think you know Californian 
dried up and continues to drag.

00:51:55.000 --> 00:47:09.000
We probably will see quite a 
few people moving north from

00:47:09.000 --> 00:40:52.000
California wetter climates.

00:40:52.000 --> 00:42:48.000
Is it problematic how climate change 
out with regard to I I don't

00:42:48.000 --> 00:55:20.000
fully understand what what what what 
you mean by that question can

00:55:20.000 --> 00:46:31.000
be retrained.

00:43:32.000 --> 00:55:42.000
Well,

00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:05.000
it's just that you know the old 
story about the elephant people

00:55:05.000 --> 00:45:16.000
come up.

00:45:16.000 --> 00:42:09.000
The elephant in one pulls the tail 
on says that's what an elf.

00:42:09.000 --> 00:55:51.000
It looks like the other one grabs 
a new year and says that's what

00:55:51.000 --> 00:50:54.000
the often looks like climate 
change is kind of like that,

00:50:54.000 --> 00:49:58.000
you know you have people who see 
and experiencing so differently

00:52:08.000 --> 00:48:12.000
right around them and yet they're 
supposed to all unite somehow

00:51:52.000 --> 00:48:35.000
and demand an overall great big solution.

00:48:36.000 --> 00:53:36.000
Well,

00:53:36.000 --> 00:40:51.000
I mean I think that polls suggest 
that a majority of Americans do

00:45:41.000 --> 00:50:03.000
think that the climate crisis.

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:27.000
The areas it's happening and they 
want to see action taken on it,

00:50:27.000 --> 00:53:49.000
regardless of how it manifests 
in their region.

00:53:49.000 --> 00:41:33.000
I think people are increasingly 
alarmed and are increasingly

00:44:13.000 --> 00:43:16.000
wanting to see elected 
official take action.

00:43:16.000 --> 00:50:39.000
Unfortunately our elected officials 
there you know largely

00:55:19.000 --> 00:45:32.000
following the money and most of 
the money is with the club

00:47:12.000 --> 00:41:36.000
brothers and the other oil companies 
so they're listening to them

00:42:26.000 --> 00:45:40.000
and not to that the American people 
but at least at the moment you

00:45:40.000 --> 00:51:53.000
know this is one reason why we need 
better campaign finance laws

00:52:53.000 --> 00:48:24.000
in this country.

00:48:24.000 --> 00:50:28.000
But I think what we come to the conclusion 
here at the Center for

00:50:28.000 --> 00:44:02.000
a sustainable economy is that working 
at the city level working at

00:44:22.000 --> 00:55:22.000
the state level,

00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:05.000
you can get a lot more done than 
you can trying to work in

00:56:25.000 --> 00:50:38.000
Washington DC things are very 
broken and Washington,

00:50:38.000 --> 00:45:11.000
but you can actually affect 
policy at the state level,

00:45:11.000 --> 00:46:34.000
and eventually hopefully 
MPs that into some sort.

00:49:04.000 --> 00:47:45.000
National strategy.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:57:55.000
Yeah.

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:37.000
That's a great point,

00:43:37.000 --> 00:48:30.000
are you getting re-energized by 
regional activism on the west

00:49:40.000 --> 00:48:34.000
coast versus the politics of living 
and working in Washington DC.

00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:45.000
Oh yes,

00:54:45.000 --> 00:42:17.000
yes.

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:21.000
You know and a hit lots and lots 
of exclamation points after that

00:50:51.000 --> 00:48:26.000
statement I I'm so inspired by and 
many of the young people that

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:20.000
retirees so level of engagement here 
in the northwest around the

00:48:20.000 --> 00:54:24.000
issue of climate change is so 
broad and persons here and so

00:57:44.000 --> 00:43:06.000
energized.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:54:20.000
It's really inspiring to see a lot 
of people hurt you know just

00:58:30.000 --> 00:54:25.000
put their careers completely on 
hold and are doing nothing but

00:56:05.000 --> 00:52:27.000
working on this climate crisis,

00:52:27.000 --> 00:46:18.000
one of the people.

00:46:18.000 --> 00:55:41.000
That's leading local 350 chapter 
here in Portland.

00:55:41.000 --> 00:52:05.000
It's the former Andy who 
just decided this was,

00:52:05.000 --> 00:57:28.000
this is where she needed to 
spend her time and energy.

00:57:28.000 --> 00:55:41.000
I know a lot of people that have 
dealt with either early

00:55:41.000 --> 00:53:26.000
retirement or living very frugally 
so that they can devote a

00:53:56.000 --> 00:51:10.000
significant amount of time to working 
on the the fighting at the

00:51:10.000 --> 00:53:42.000
fossil fuel industry here in Oregon.

00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:33.000
So it's,

00:53:33.000 --> 00:58:57.000
it's both inspiring encourages me 
to work even harder whereas back

00:58:57.000 --> 00:51:28.000
in Washington,

00:51:28.000 --> 00:45:29.000
DC.

00:45:29.000 --> 00:44:23.000
We just feel that no matter how much 
you through your head against

00:45:23.000 --> 00:57:25.000
that that wall you just keeps Nash.

00:57:25.000 --> 00:58:19.000
You know how to go through expense 
and it wasn't going to budge.

00:58:19.000 --> 00:43:42.000
But things do actually 
get done it Thursday.

00:47:23.000 --> 00:57:36.000
I wonder if there's a story or experience 
beyond that you think

00:58:06.000 --> 00:48:10.000
could help raise our listeners 
to an even greater move into

00:49:10.000 --> 00:52:01.000
climate activism.

00:54:42.000 --> 00:43:53.000
Well,

00:43:53.000 --> 00:51:17.000
I mean I think the climate crisis 
you you know you've covered it

00:51:47.000 --> 00:45:18.000
so well,

00:45:18.000 --> 00:55:41.000
especially in your recent shows 
with climate psychologists and

00:57:41.000 --> 00:49:37.000
others talking about the ways in 
which we turn away from just how

00:51:17.000 --> 00:59:38.000
serious it is,

00:59:38.000 --> 00:58:50.000
it cannot have that result,

00:58:50.000 --> 00:51:55.000
but it can also when you are working 
in coalition with others I

00:52:25.000 --> 00:49:39.000
what I found is that the people 
that end up coming out to join

00:50:09.000 --> 00:55:52.000
this coalitions are some of the 
best members of our society and

00:57:42.000 --> 00:46:26.000
mean you know just smart committed,

00:46:26.000 --> 00:58:56.000
funny,

00:58:56.000 --> 00:45:38.000
creative,

00:45:38.000 --> 00:55:31.000
and these are the kinds of people 
that I would want to have.

00:55:31.000 --> 00:45:54.000
By my side fighting any kind of battle.

00:45:54.000 --> 00:52:08.000
So I encourage people that are in 
any way feeling defeated by this

00:55:08.000 --> 00:56:03.000
crisis turn that sort of intention 
to mourn into an into an

00:56:53.000 --> 00:46:18.000
organizing intention and to really 
stick out like-minded folks

00:48:08.000 --> 00:45:22.000
because they will energize you and 
keep you going in the darkest

00:45:22.000 --> 00:56:06.000
hours and a lot of us are 
feeling the grief around.

00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:08.000
I know I felt it for quite some time,

00:56:08.000 --> 00:59:59.000
but there is,

00:59:59.000 --> 00:55:04.000
there are signs that people are really 
beginning to get it and I

00:56:14.000 --> 00:44:59.000
really getting mobilized for example 
and working with the National

00:51:49.000 --> 00:57:12.000
Unitarian General Assembly that's 
gathering in Portland and 6,000

00:45:23.000 --> 00:51:16.000
members of the Unitarian coming 
from all over the United States

00:51:36.000 --> 01:00:59.000
and they'll be focused exclusively 
on those climate change and

01:00:59.000 --> 00:57:33.000
also how best to work in solidarity 
with native Americans in

00:59:03.000 --> 00:55:25.000
facing down this crisis.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:45:57.000
It's very exciting.

00:45:57.000 --> 00:55:51.000
It feels like we are going to go 
back to our home communities and

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:03.000
really commit to respond.

00:56:03.000 --> 00:58:36.000
In fact there is a website commit 
to respond and people were going

00:58:36.000 --> 00:52:50.000
to be asked to do something along 
the same lines of what your last

00:53:20.000 --> 00:58:34.000
guest asked us to do which is to 
mobilize towards a World War 2

00:59:04.000 --> 00:57:18.000
type mobilization to save you know 
I think a lot of us recognize

00:57:18.000 --> 00:58:32.000
if that's what's required to swim 
time and we need all of us to be

00:59:52.000 --> 00:52:46.000
calling for the same thing both for 
our economy and for our planet

00:55:36.000 --> 00:46:19.000
if were gonna stop this monster in time.

00:55:09.000 --> 00:58:09.000
Here.

00:59:39.000 --> 00:52:24.000
Our guest Washington hosted the environmental 
program for 8 years

00:52:24.000 --> 00:51:58.000
on the Pacifica Radio network now 
she's bounced between regional

00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:52.000
activism on the West Coast continuing 
watch over national and

00:55:22.000 --> 00:58:04.000
international climate developments.

00:58:04.000 --> 00:47:08.000
She is the director of climate 
and the energy program at the

00:47:08.000 --> 00:52:02.000
Center for sustainable economy definitely 
where the best places to

00:52:02.000 --> 00:49:54.000
follow your ongoing work.

00:59:34.000 --> 00:56:19.000
Sustainable dash economy of our 
website and we are getting on

01:01:29.000 --> 00:57:21.000
climate and energy program up and running.

00:57:21.000 --> 00:55:45.000
There were very excited about a new 
initiative that you can see an

00:55:45.000 --> 01:00:38.000
update on shortly called climate response.

01:00:38.000 --> 00:56:12.000
We have a preliminary paper up there 
and we'll be posting a lot of

00:56:32.000 --> 00:49:08.000
our activity on Algerian and other 
oil and gas and coal exports in

00:49:08.000 --> 00:51:39.000
the Pacific Northwest,

00:51:39.000 --> 00:58:11.000
we've hired a new political director.

00:58:11.000 --> 00:59:03.000
You can join our activist network there,

00:59:03.000 --> 00:49:48.000
and we were poured engaging with anyone 
who wants to preserve what

00:49:48.000 --> 00:53:31.000
we call that in green line here 
in the Pacific Northwest them

00:55:51.000 --> 00:52:23.000
these massive fossil fuel.

00:56:43.000 --> 01:01:03.000
Well,

01:01:03.000 --> 00:51:14.000
from going.

00:46:55.000 --> 00:52:25.000
Great.

00:52:25.000 --> 00:48:19.000
So listeners just Google center 
for sustainable economy or look

00:48:19.000 --> 00:53:22.000
for links in my blog at could 
shock.info Daphne.

00:53:22.000 --> 00:49:24.000
Thank you so much for joining us again,

00:49:24.000 --> 00:53:26.000
please keep in touch as you 
develop more stories.

01:01:06.000 --> 01:00:07.000
Thank you.

01:00:07.000 --> 01:03:01.000
And one last thing it it really 
as websites seemed odd or will

01:03:01.000 --> 00:48:35.000
take you right to absolutely 
and I do I will treat you,

00:48:35.000 --> 00:51:15.000
right.

00:56:45.000 --> 01:01:56.000
Activist network page.

00:49:27.000 --> 00:59:11.000
Beautiful scene.org I'm Alex Smith 
reporting for Radio Eco shark.

00:57:54.000 --> 01:02:48.000
This is Radio Eco shot made up your 
iPod or computer with tons of

01:03:18.000 --> 00:54:14.000
free green audio from our website 
at W W W.eco shock.org that's

00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:27.000
easy oil shock like electric shock.org.

00:52:42.000 --> 01:03:43.000
In the short time we have left.

01:03:43.000 --> 00:51:57.000
I'd like to pass on some quotes 
and notes from a deep and

00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:01.000
important talk from climate week 
at Harvard University Center for

00:52:01.000 --> 00:53:22.000
the environment,

00:53:22.000 --> 00:48:03.000
the speakers.

00:48:03.000 --> 00:51:37.000
Dr. James Anderson and the title 
is coupled feedback in the

00:51:37.000 --> 00:54:12.000
climate structure that set the timescale 
for irreversible change

01:01:42.000 --> 00:51:36.000
Arctic isotopes to stratospheric radicals.

00:51:36.000 --> 01:02:09.000
That's quite a bit and believe me 
he covers a lot this talk on

01:02:09.000 --> 00:54:34.000
April 8th 20-15 was part of a series 
of presentations I found this

00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:15.000
on video.

00:54:15.000 --> 00:49:19.000
Thanks to a tip from a radio equal 
shock listener and I'm so glad

00:49:19.000 --> 00:52:40.000
I did.

00:52:40.000 --> 00:48:42.000
The talk as Anderson tells us,

00:48:42.000 --> 00:57:03.000
is a fairly high level.

00:57:03.000 --> 00:56:36.000
A presentation of ongoing research 
into some important

00:56:36.000 --> 00:51:10.000
developments in the climate Anderson 
covers a wide range of

00:51:10.000 --> 00:48:51.000
science.

00:48:51.000 --> 00:58:23.000
I can only get to a few points here,

00:58:23.000 --> 00:52:44.000
for example,

00:52:44.000 --> 00:54:08.000
research into past ages showed the 
stratosphere that upper level

00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:22.000
of Earth's atmosphere above the weather 
was far wetter than today

00:54:22.000 --> 00:59:44.000
, in past greenhouse ages.

00:59:44.000 --> 00:55:58.000
The wording of the stratosphere should 
be happening now but until

00:58:18.000 --> 00:54:21.000
very recently nobody knew 
how that could happen.

00:54:21.000 --> 00:58:45.000
Now we do Anderson also points out 
a key difference between past

01:00:35.000 --> 00:58:48.000
hothouse world and today this time around.

00:58:48.000 --> 01:03:32.000
Humans have also injected chlorinated 
substances like ozone

00:49:53.000 --> 00:51:27.000
destroying CFCs there were never 
there in the past ages and how

00:51:27.000 --> 00:56:31.000
does that affect climate change as 
we'll hear from those opening

00:56:31.000 --> 00:51:55.000
quote scientists are gaining new 
knowledge on changes we've made

00:57:15.000 --> 01:02:06.000
that cannot be reversed,

01:02:06.000 --> 01:04:10.000
at least not in any timescale that 
matters to humans here is Dr.

01:04:10.000 --> 00:56:02.000
Anderson speaking at Harvard.

00:52:03.000 --> 00:56:38.000
This is really research talk about 
2 aspects of the climate

00:56:38.000 --> 01:03:29.000
structure,

01:03:29.000 --> 01:04:04.000
both of which are coupled through 
irreversible connective cycles

00:52:55.000 --> 00:51:00.000
and so I'm gonna talk about experiments 
done 5 meters above the

00:51:00.000 --> 01:02:14.000
surface and then experiments done 
20 kilometers above the surface

01:03:14.000 --> 00:54:47.000
and you'll see why those are linked,

00:54:47.000 --> 00:58:31.000
but just in case I basketball 
over these things I want to

01:00:41.000 --> 01:04:33.000
emphasize some points.

01:04:33.000 --> 00:57:07.000
The first one is that this global 
climate structure is changing

00:57:07.000 --> 00:54:22.000
far more rapidly than than we believe 
was possible even even 5

00:54:22.000 --> 01:01:46.000
years ago and I'm gonna show some 
dominant examples of that the

01:01:46.000 --> 01:03:30.000
next issue is the feedback in the 
climate structure because it

01:03:30.000 --> 01:01:35.000
seeks feedback sits set the timescale 
for a reverse ability and

01:03:55.000 --> 01:06:18.000
I'm gonna take a very brief tour 
through the climate system to

01:06:18.000 --> 00:50:42.000
demonstrate how that functions now:

00:50:42.000 --> 01:01:15.000
a look at the way in which developing 
technology provides direct

01:02:15.000 --> 00:59:49.000
measurements for example of methane 
and carbon di-oxide ITA topic

00:52:10.000 --> 01:05:10.000
Fox measurement.

01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:25.000
Next we'll hear about how the fragile 
Arctic determined so much of

01:05:25.000 --> 00:59:26.000
our weather.

00:58:07.000 --> 01:00:22.000
Then I'm going to look at why these 
Cryer systems which are so

01:02:22.000 --> 01:05:07.000
delicate because heat of fusion 
for waters so small that the

01:05:07.000 --> 00:55:04.000
delicacy of of these Cryer systems 
in a cruel irony link into the

00:55:04.000 --> 01:03:29.000
larger global climate structure 
and they exhibit inordinate

01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:23.000
control over these global climate 
systems I'm I'm gonna touch very

01:03:23.000 --> 00:52:58.000
briefly on this pale your record 
and as Brian talked about on on

00:52:58.000 --> 00:55:04.000
Tuesday that the climate structure 
depends in in large measure on

00:55:04.000 --> 01:01:18.000
the temperature gradient between 
the tropics in the polar regions

01:01:18.000 --> 00:57:41.000
and during the EEOC,

00:57:41.000 --> 00:54:24.000
there was a very little temperature 
difference between the tropics

00:54:24.000 --> 00:58:59.000
and and and the polar regions and 
in that particular structure of

00:58:59.000 --> 01:01:41.000
the stratosphere had to be wet.

01:01:41.000 --> 00:58:32.000
There's very little

01:07:23.000 --> 00:57:34.000
and fact.

00:57:34.000 --> 01:05:14.000
I don't know,

01:05:14.000 --> 00:53:55.000
Brian,

00:53:55.000 --> 01:05:07.000
I don't think there's any possibility 
of having that claim a

01:05:07.000 --> 01:03:10.000
structure without a Maurice stratosphere.

01:03:10.000 --> 00:56:24.000
And as we'll see moisture entering 
the stratosphere today has a

00:56:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000
very different connotation because 
it triggers catalytic cycles

00:55:27.000 --> 00:51:40.000
involving chlorine in Bromley in 
that were not present during the

00:52:00.000 --> 00:57:05.000
EEOC so also talk about you active 
of injection north of the

00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:06.000
subtropical jet,

00:59:06.000 --> 00:55:21.000
which as we saw from from Bryant brands 
talk is of a potential way

00:55:21.000 --> 00:53:05.000
of transitioning from the current 
structure of the climate to one

00:53:05.000 --> 00:59:19.000
in which there is a far smaller difference 
between in temperature

01:00:19.000 --> 01:02:21.000
between the equator in the polar regions,

01:02:21.000 --> 00:54:55.000
so is convicted injection of water,

00:54:55.000 --> 00:59:20.000
it turned out to be unique over 
the US and it's coupled also to

01:06:20.000 --> 01:05:34.000
any cyclonic flow over the US that 
that's created by the North

01:05:34.000 --> 00:52:56.000
American monsoon.

00:52:56.000 --> 00:59:50.000
And so we have this convicted injection 
into this anti cyclonic

00:59:50.000 --> 01:05:31.000
motion,

01:05:31.000 --> 00:55:27.000
which is a hoot demonic combination 
created by the dynamics.

00:55:27.000 --> 01:07:51.000
But it has very strong good coupling 
into the catalytic chemical

00:56:02.000 --> 01:00:23.000
structure of the stratosphere.

00:56:44.000 --> 01:01:17.000
Note how Anderson stressed the point 
made again and again by our

01:02:07.000 --> 00:55:41.000
guest scientist Paul Beckwith when 
explaining the new disruption

00:55:41.000 --> 01:01:04.000
of weather in the northern hemisphere 
and that's the temperature

01:02:34.000 --> 00:59:18.000
difference between the tropics in 
the polls as polar regions warm

00:59:18.000 --> 01:01:41.000
up the difference is declining and 
the result is a slower and wave

01:02:31.000 --> 00:59:15.000
your jet stream and some really strange 
weather for all of us in

00:59:35.000 --> 00:55:58.000
the northern world as a side note,

00:55:58.000 --> 00:59:01.000
Anderson explains why both the 
left and the right may support

01:02:11.000 --> 01:07:45.000
further research into controversial 
geo engineering first he

01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:18.000
refers to the National Research 
Council report on climate

01:07:18.000 --> 00:59:02.000
engineering particularly solar 
radiation management.

01:02:12.000 --> 01:05:16.000
The National Research Council 
just released a new report on

01:05:16.000 --> 00:59:50.000
climate engineering particularly 
solar radiation management that

00:57:21.000 --> 01:09:35.000
is being pushed actually in a bipartisan 
way because the right

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would like to have solar radiation 
management so more fossil fuels

01:00:01.000 --> 00:59:16.000
can be burned and the left believes 
that intruding in natural

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systems like this is a very dangerous 
so research on the topic is

00:55:11.000 --> 00:58:34.000
gaining bilateral support,

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which is highly unusual these days.

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Next we hear why James Anderson,

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thinks global warming is so horribly 
wrong as a term to describe

01:02:43.000 --> 01:09:34.000
the current climate shift.

01:02:55.000 --> 01:07:35.000
All right,

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so let me start with with a bias 
this this term global warming

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applied to this problem.

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It makes me shudder because 70% 
of the globe is covered by the

00:57:17.000 --> 01:03:47.000
ocean,

01:03:47.000 --> 01:06:59.000
with an average depth of 3500 meters,

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and it has massive heat capacity,

01:01:42.000 --> 01:00:46.000
so my mind most degenerate variable 
you can discusses mean global

01:05:26.000 --> 01:03:10.000
temperature and it also carries a 
connotation of something that's

01:03:10.000 --> 01:07:24.000
happening slow leak you know one 
degree centigrade per century

00:56:05.000 --> 01:03:19.000
doesn't carry a huge amount of political 
imperative behind it.

01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:12.000
It also carries the connotation 
that you can watch think slowly

01:03:12.000 --> 01:06:23.000
change and if you don't like,

01:06:23.000 --> 01:04:58.000
if you can just slow down the release 
of carbon dioxide and return

01:04:58.000 --> 00:59:02.000
to the condition and nothing could 
be further from the truth is,

00:59:02.000 --> 01:07:52.000
as we'll see.

01:07:52.000 --> 01:02:17.000
So I always avoid the term and 
I cringe every time I hear it.

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We'll never have time to get to all 
the great science in the stock

01:11:00.000 --> 01:04:52.000
. But I do want you to hear this.

00:59:13.000 --> 01:03:06.000
The next point involves these methane 
clatter it's either of these

01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:02.000
beautiful structures ice cages within 
which nature inserts methane

01:03:02.000 --> 01:00:18.000
produced anaerobic by decomposition 
of organic material and in its

01:00:18.000 --> 01:02:12.000
and it's chirpy that's driving this 
entirely because it nature of

01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:16.000
course abhors a vacuum and with stuff 
molecules and every possible

01:03:46.000 --> 01:11:12.000
nook and cranny in order to 
engage the inclusion of

01:06:33.000 --> 01:05:57.000
energy states and it turns out that 
methane 5th beautifully into

01:06:37.000 --> 01:04:43.000
these water cages and this is ubiquitous 
Klatten nothing rates

01:04:43.000 --> 00:56:28.000
contain about 3 times the chemical 
energy of all known fossil fuel

01:00:48.000 --> 00:59:30.000
reserves include coal,

00:59:30.000 --> 01:09:54.000
petroleum natural gas and they 
reside not only in the surface

01:11:34.000 --> 00:57:07.000
soils of Siberia northern Alaska but also

01:05:58.000 --> 00:59:02.000
they're ubiquitous across the ocean 
basins this was pulled up off

00:59:42.000 --> 01:11:46.000
the west coast of about 100m than 
it is touch of magic to it and

01:11:46.000 --> 01:08:51.000
it it ignites but the numbers as Steve,

01:08:51.000 --> 01:02:53.000
what's the point pointed out,

01:02:53.000 --> 01:00:45.000
are actually quite concerning.

01:00:45.000 --> 01:06:00.000
So here we plot the CO2 emissions 
from fossil-fuel burning in gig

01:07:00.000 --> 01:08:55.000
tons of carbon per year yet to convert 
back from CO2 but canonical

01:11:55.000 --> 01:01:30.000
representation is and in carbon 
per vehicle because of that's

01:02:40.000 --> 01:01:26.000
typically how calibrated so 1990 have 
about 6 again get tons of of

01:03:46.000 --> 00:57:40.000
carbon was added to the atmosphere 
by fossil-fuel burning,

00:57:40.000 --> 01:09:14.000
and that was basically a textbook 
number for for many many years,

01:09:14.000 --> 00:57:46.000
but in 2000,

00:57:46.000 --> 00:56:43.000
it started to take off and when 
the 2007 IPCC report came out.

00:56:43.000 --> 01:08:54.000
These were the release than area.

01:08:54.000 --> 01:00:38.000
This was the worst possible 
cases up a red wine,

01:00:38.000 --> 01:08:18.000
and of course,

01:08:18.000 --> 00:59:12.000
we've exceeded that of every year.

00:59:12.000 --> 01:07:26.000
The subsequent to to 2007 but the 
key point is that just half a

01:07:36.000 --> 01:02:00.000
percent of the labor while carbon 
in the Earth's surface soils,

01:02:00.000 --> 01:05:55.000
of the North Slope of of Alaska 
and Siberia just half a percent

01:07:05.000 --> 01:04:19.000
release rate per year gives 
us around 89 tons per year,

01:04:19.000 --> 01:11:22.000
which doubles the carbon added 
to the atmosphere by all

01:01:03.000 --> 01:06:25.000
fossil-fuel burning worldwide.

01:06:25.000 --> 01:04:30.000
And so this constitutes for the 
next exhibit for feedback.

01:08:50.000 --> 01:09:23.000
Anderson gives the example of a 
class 3 pulled up off the west

01:10:23.000 --> 01:04:06.000
coast from a depth of about 100 meters,

01:04:06.000 --> 01:00:29.000
that could be ignited with old match.

01:00:29.000 --> 01:05:09.000
Well,

01:05:09.000 --> 01:11:12.000
we didn't get to the strange way 
chlorinated substances playback

01:11:12.000 --> 01:06:26.000
on other climate feedback in the 
atmosphere plus and this is a

01:06:26.000 --> 01:07:57.000
spoiler alert.

01:07:57.000 --> 00:59:21.000
Scientists have discovered a way 
the stratosphere can become

00:59:21.000 --> 01:08:25.000
wetter as it did in past greenhouse 
worlds many many hours flying

01:08:25.000 --> 01:13:38.000
around the world found the stratosphere 
has the same low amount of

01:13:38.000 --> 01:05:00.000
water vapor.

01:05:00.000 --> 01:02:32.000
But in a kink in the system.

01:02:32.000 --> 01:12:45.000
A collision of weather factors over 
the continental United States

01:01:46.000 --> 01:05:00.000
creates an almost unique kind of heat 
funnel that does inject more

01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:32.000
water into the stratosphere.

01:05:32.000 --> 01:04:46.000
There are several other sites like 
that Anderson says they have

01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:10.000
the mechanism that will wet down 
the stratosphere over time,

01:04:10.000 --> 01:11:23.000
as I say there's a huge range of 
cutting science in the stock by

01:11:23.000 --> 01:13:54.000
James Anderson.

01:13:54.000 --> 01:04:48.000
Some of it is a little difficult 
for the lay person to understand

01:04:48.000 --> 01:09:00.000
, but most of it is very clear.

01:09:00.000 --> 01:10:13.000
We learn of feedback switch make 
this developing climate shift

01:01:14.000 --> 00:59:18.000
into a major geological event 
that cannot be reversed.

00:59:18.000 --> 01:11:31.000
We have already gone over the climate 
cliff he tells us how far we

01:13:51.000 --> 01:08:15.000
fall depends on whether we can rein 
in our fossil-fuel burning

01:10:05.000 --> 01:14:39.000
emissions before they trigger much 
much larger carbon or methane

01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:14.000
inputs from the previously frozen 
land and sea bed in the Arctic

01:08:35.000 --> 01:14:18.000
find an easy link to this video presentation 
at Harvard University

00:59:39.000 --> 01:09:53.000
April 8 2015 in my shell 
blog eco shock.info.

01:09:53.000 --> 01:02:46.000
I'll also add my lengthy 
notes to the blog,

01:02:46.000 --> 01:12:50.000
which includes a few links and explanations 
we've blown through

01:12:50.000 --> 01:03:25.000
the time barrier again get all past 
programs as free MP3s from our

01:03:25.000 --> 01:11:59.000
website at shock.org listen any 
time on the radio shock page on

01:13:19.000 --> 01:15:31.000
sound cloud I'm Alex,